BluHorseShu said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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And the stress of not knowing whether my kids were pre ordained to hell would drive me crazy.

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To be quite frank, thoughts about my son's salvation drive me to be in a position of complete surrender, submission and reverence to the will of God. With that being said, I think regardless of your theology, you as a parent have very little (microscopically small) control over your children's salvation. For those in the free will camp, your kids will choose what they choose (seems more scary to me). The Bible is rich with examples of Godly men who had children that strayed far from God.

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Which begs the question...We're they 'men of God' to begin with? I think you cannot know the heart of another the same way you can't know who is the elect. In both cases you still seek to grow more in Christ every day and persevere until the end.

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I understand your point on knowing the heart of another. One of the biggest examples from scripture that comes to mind is David (1 Sam 13:14) and his various sons. One one hand you have Amnon and Absalom who were completely rotten and far from God. Then you have Solomon who penned most of Proverbs, inspired by the Spirit.

Mostly Peaceful said:

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dermdoc said:

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Calvin based his entire theology basically on one church father, Augustine. And modern Reformed eschew the Catholic Church.

It makes no sense to me.

And the stress of not knowing whether my kids were pre ordained to hell would drive me crazy.

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It is inaccurate to say that Calvin based his entire theology on Augustine. Yes, there was a heavy influence, but the basis of Calvin's theology was Scripture. I'd be shocked if any of us here have spent more time in the Word than John Calvin.

I'm not looking to get into a debate here, but as someone who believes God is completely sovereign in salvation, I do want to address your relentless questioning of how I could possibly live without being in constant fear over the salvation of my children. The answer is because I know God is good, and He is just. He cannot perpetrate injustice. And while I wish I could reconcile the tension between God's sovereignty and man's responsibility, like all those who have tried before me, I simply cannot. But this does not bother me past the point of being frustrated by my own lack of understanding because I know the ways of God are infinitely beyond my ability to comprehend. It would be foolish of me to say, "This seems contradictory to me, so it cannot be true."

To be clear, I am in no way accusing you of that mindset. We are in complete agreement in regard to supremacy of God, and I am honored to have someone with your wisdom and knowledge as my brother in Christ. My point is that when I read John 6 and 10, or Ephesians 1, or Romans 9, or Acts 13:48, I see something that I cannot fully understand. And while you may not agree with my interpretation of these passages, at the very least I would hope you don't see it as unreasonable or characterize it as an attack on God's character.

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Great post and thank you for the civil discourse.

I will say the majority of Christians and theologians do not interpret Ephesians or Romans 9 the same way Calvinists, or Reformed do. And I am not a Calvinist or Reformed.

Which is okay. We are all brothers in Christ.

Amen.

Bob_Ag said:

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The problem, as always, is the inconsistency of trying to exposit the rest of Scripture with an Arminian or Provisionist view. It always breaks down somewhere.

Why would God need to give somebody a new heart if they already had a heart to choose God?
Why do we need regeneration if we are inherently capable of making choices that please God's command of holiness?
If salvation is in effect dictated by man's choice, then how is God sovereign?
If salvation is dictated by man's choice, then regeneration is not a supernatural miracle act of God because it posits that man had the ability to do it himself (Provisionists have no answer for this).
How do we reconcile Romans 3 (Ps 53) with an idea that man can indeed choose God apart from the Holy Spirit?
Out of two people, one chooses salvation and the other doesn't, then isn't man able to boast? How is that grace when man earns his salvation?
The list goes on.

I get why people don't want to accept unconditional election. Its in our nature to do so. But, the reason Calvinism is still so ever present today is due to the inability of other theologies to consistently exegete the rest of Scripture. Particularly John 6.

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The Calvinist or Reformed interpretation of those Scriptures is in the minority of serious theologians and Christians in general.

A quick Google search reveals this.

And free will was always part of orthodox Christianity until the Reformers. Why was this theology not present (except maybe Augustine) in the time period before?

And I am not blasting Calvinism. But to say there is no other way to interpret those Scriptures strikes me as wrong. I also think the whole of Scripture has parts that support modern day Reformed theology and parts that do not.

We will agree to disagree.

This has been argued for thousands of years and I do not believe anybody absolutely knows how regeneration occurs.

We are all brothers in Christ.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Jordan Riley put out a video not long ago warning of the dangers of this app.

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That guy is a NUTCASE.

Who? Craig Groeschel? Joyce Meyer?

MAROON said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Jordan Riley put out a video not long ago warning of the dangers of this app.

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That guy is a NUTCASE.

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Not sure about that but but he sure likes to call out other pastors. Guys like Chan, Winder, and Parr.

Wonder what he thinks about CS Lewis? Or Wesley?

I guess everybody is a heretic who does not interpret Scripture just like he does.

We need discernment and proper teaching but he seems to be over the top. At least to me.

But I am not Reformed so I would be a heretic to him also. And google his views on Catholicism.

Of course, Jesus and Stephen were called heretics also. Seems sort of Pharisee like to me.

He calls out some "heretics" you can access on that app. You can also access Billy Graham bible studies, Franklin Graham, Tim Keller, Dietrick Boenhoffer, Oswald Chambers, C.S Lewis and many more.

You can also access the Bible in just about any version you like to read - NIV, ASV, etc. He's probably a guy who thinks the KJV is the only true Bible.

Not going to put much weight on a backward hat wearing guy ranting and raving on the Internet. Especially one that starts out by asking for donations.

MAROON said:

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He calls out some "heretics" you can access on that app. You can also access Billy Graham bible studies, Franklin Graham, Tim Keller, Dietrick Boenhoffer, Oswald Chambers, C.S Lewis and many more.

You can also access the Bible in just about any version you like to read - NIV, ASV, etc. He's probably a guy who thinks the KJV is the only true Bible.

Not going to put much weight on a backward hat wearing guy ranting and raving on the Internet. Especially one that starts out by asking for donations.

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I would bet he thinks a lot of the guys you listed are heretics also. Probably not Boenhoffer.

Very typical for hyper Calvinists.

So, anything specific that is worth refuting that he said? Other than backwards hats, asking for ministry support and assuming hyper-Calvinism? Seems very general.

In case you missed the overall point, the danger lies with having such a wide range of study information available. From Biblically sound teaching to heretical teaching, you surely can see the issue with that. Folks can get teaching from Tim Keller and then head on over the next week and get it from Joel Osteen. Obviously folks need to have some personal discernment, but some Christians may not have that quite yet.

If I'm understanding what the gentleman is emphasizing….he's just saying "make sure" who you are listening to on a devotional study. I am in a group of men who use it together everyday, but we definitely want to stay away from anything by TD Jakes, Joel O'steen and Steven Furtick from Elevation Church for example. Random people might get on there and see a topic and say, "oh, this looks really good…I'll listen to that" and it could easily be a false interpretation of the Word and lead them astray. For example, I know many young people (and a few adults) who think Furtick is cool and he hung the moon. But a deeper study of him reveals that he's a disciple of TD Jakes….all you have to do is listen to his one sermon about the Trinity where he pushes the doctrine of Modalism…saying "Jesus just transformed into the Holy Spirit…changed forms!" I'd say that's pretty heretical….as they are completely separate. (Furtick also preached about how we all are "little gods"….there's no such thing!!) Got to love how Furtick had a "spontaneous baptism" day, but already had certain people picked out to come out to entice others….I'm pretty sure the Holy Spirit doesn't need that kind of help. In closing, there's lots of false teachers out there, and while the Bible App is great, I think the guy should have said "be careful" as opposed to not using it!!

10andBOUNCE said:

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So, anything specific that is worth refuting that he said? Other than backwards hats, asking for ministry support and assuming hyper-Calvinism? Seems very general.

In case you missed the overall point, the danger lies with having such a wide range of study information available. From Biblically sound teaching to heretical teaching, you surely can see the issue with that. Folks can get teaching from Tim Keller and then head on over the next week and get it from Joel Osteen. Obviously folks need to have some personal discernment, but some Christians may not have that quite yet.

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Have you googled anything on Riley?

He thinks Billy Graham was a false teacher.

And I get the overall point and agree. Just like any app or website you have to use discernment.

And my Holy Spirit discernment tells me to avoid this guy.

Quote:

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And my Holy Spirit discernment tells me

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lol...I'm going to use that.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Quote:

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And my Holy Spirit discernment tells me

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lol...I'm going to use that.

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It is true. The Spirit tells me who to avoid. And tells every believer in my opinion.

SpiderDude said:

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Really enjoying this app. I have a longer work commute now and love that I can listen to the bible via audio on this app. I'm going through the gospels right now. Matthew 23 jumped out at me in the audio version. Jesus (God's) anger towards religion for religion's sake is front and center. That whole chapter is dripping with resentment for the Pharisees and teachers of the law that did not have God's love in their hearts but only wanted to focus on following the laws of Moses.

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Take a look at The Bible Recap. It's a daily reading plan with a brief commentary / podcast each day. Most that I know that have been through it found it incredibly insightful.

https://www.thebiblerecap.com/

wcb said:

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SpiderDude said:

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Really enjoying this app. I have a longer work commute now and love that I can listen to the bible via audio on this app. I'm going through the gospels right now. Matthew 23 jumped out at me in the audio version. Jesus (God's) anger towards religion for religion's sake is front and center. That whole chapter is dripping with resentment for the Pharisees and teachers of the law that did not have God's love in their hearts but only wanted to focus on following the laws of Moses.

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Take a look at The Bible Recap. It's a daily reading plan with a brief commentary / podcast each day. Most that I know that have been through it found it incredibly insightful.

https://www.thebiblerecap.com/

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I like the Bible in a year app a lot. And it can be read or listened to.

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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So, anything specific that is worth refuting that he said? Other than backwards hats, asking for ministry support and assuming hyper-Calvinism? Seems very general.

In case you missed the overall point, the danger lies with having such a wide range of study information available. From Biblically sound teaching to heretical teaching, you surely can see the issue with that. Folks can get teaching from Tim Keller and then head on over the next week and get it from Joel Osteen. Obviously folks need to have some personal discernment, but some Christians may not have that quite yet.

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Have you googled anything on Riley?

He thinks Billy Graham was a false teacher.

And I get the overall point and agree. Just like any app or website you have to use discernment.

And my Holy Spirit discernment tells me to avoid this guy.

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Billy Graham no doubt was used mightily despite some of his flawed theology and ministerial tactics.
I honestly have a hard time making sense of someone like him. One one side, he no doubt preached the gospel to many, and it was a springboard for a lot of testimonies. On the flip side, it was potentially a flawed gospel presentation that gave false assurances to many after they said a prayer and tapped out. Either way, God is in control and can use anyone he pleases to advance his kingdom.

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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So, anything specific that is worth refuting that he said? Other than backwards hats, asking for ministry support and assuming hyper-Calvinism? Seems very general.

In case you missed the overall point, the danger lies with having such a wide range of study information available. From Biblically sound teaching to heretical teaching, you surely can see the issue with that. Folks can get teaching from Tim Keller and then head on over the next week and get it from Joel Osteen. Obviously folks need to have some personal discernment, but some Christians may not have that quite yet.

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And my Holy Spirit discernment tells me to avoid this guy.

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I am not 100% sure what you mean.

Are you saying that for some, the holy spirit might illuminate the dangers of Joel Osteen or TD Jakes, and for others the holy spirit would affirm those teachings?

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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So, anything specific that is worth refuting that he said? Other than backwards hats, asking for ministry support and assuming hyper-Calvinism? Seems very general.

In case you missed the overall point, the danger lies with having such a wide range of study information available. From Biblically sound teaching to heretical teaching, you surely can see the issue with that. Folks can get teaching from Tim Keller and then head on over the next week and get it from Joel Osteen. Obviously folks need to have some personal discernment, but some Christians may not have that quite yet.

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And my Holy Spirit discernment tells me to avoid this guy.

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I am not 100% sure what you mean.

Are you saying that for some, the holy spirit might illuminate the dangers of Joel Osteen or TD Jakes, and for others the holy spirit would affirm those teachings?

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No. I said what I said. All I can say is what the Spirit tells me.

May I ask a question?

Since the majority of Christian theologians from the beginning of the church do not agree with present day Reformed/Calvinist theology, are they all false teachers/heretics?

Doesn't it make you question things a little?

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2022/02/calvinism-tiny-minority-historically-demographically.html

That's a lot of heretics.

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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So, anything specific that is worth refuting that he said? Other than backwards hats, asking for ministry support and assuming hyper-Calvinism? Seems very general.

In case you missed the overall point, the danger lies with having such a wide range of study information available. From Biblically sound teaching to heretical teaching, you surely can see the issue with that. Folks can get teaching from Tim Keller and then head on over the next week and get it from Joel Osteen. Obviously folks need to have some personal discernment, but some Christians may not have that quite yet.

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Have you googled anything on Riley?

He thinks Billy Graham was a false teacher.

And I get the overall point and agree. Just like any app or website you have to use discernment.

And my Holy Spirit discernment tells me to avoid this guy.

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Billy Graham no doubt was used mightily despite some of his flawed theology and ministerial tactics.
I honestly have a hard time making sense of someone like him. One one side, he no doubt preached the gospel to many, and it was a springboard for a lot of testimonies. On the flip side, it was potentially a flawed gospel presentation that gave false assurances to many after they said a prayer and tapped out. Either way, God is in control and can use anyone he pleases to advance his kingdom.

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If God is totally sovereign over salvation, what could Billy Graham or anyone do to change that?

All he could do is preach the Gospel, correct? How could anyone have false or true assurance if they do not know who the elect are?

And I also wonder what requirements you have beyond a public profession of faith?

I do not have the ability to know whether anyone is truly saved.

And you keep bringing up Osteen which I think is a complete outlier and irrelevant.

This guy goes after a ton of well respected pastors, authors, and theologians.

Charles Spurgeon, a Calvinist, said it best in my opinion.

"Men who go so high in doctrine, and withal add so much bitterness and uncharitableness to it, that they cannot imagine that a man can fear God at all unless he believes precisely as they do".

Quote:

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May I ask a question?

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Of course!

Quote:

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Since the majority of Christian theologians from the beginning of the church do not agree with present day Reformed/Calvinist theology, are they all false teachers/heretics?

Doesn't it make you question things a little?

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So I would say that labeling someone a heretic and false teacher shouldn't be taken lightly, and in regards to Jordan Riley, I think he often is a little over zealous with that label. Although it also is a weird time in that anyone nowadays can hop on YouTube and try to stir up a following and "teach" others. I consider many many Arminian teachers to be solid, Biblically based teachers and are not false. Obviously there is a difference in interpretation of what the scriptures are saying. Most churches I have been a part of in my early and now adult life were not reformed, and I don't have a problem with those churches I used to be a part of. I may disagree with many things now, but those are not salvific things.

Quote:

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If God is totally sovereign over salvation, what could Billy Graham or anyone do to change that?

All he could do is preach the Gospel, correct? How could anyone have false or true assurance if they do not know who the elect are?

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Nobody can thwart God's will. Yes, the teaching and the proclamation of the Gospel and God's Word is really all that anyone can and should do. Assurance is rooted in always pointing to Christ and not unto ourselves. Looking at ourselves and our performance for assurance, we will always be unsure.

Quote:

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And I also wonder what requirements you have beyond a public profession of faith?

I do not have the ability to know whether anyone is truly saved.

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Right there with you. I have no ability to know for sure whether you or anyone else is truly saved.

"because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved."
Romans 10:9-10
*confess (homologe) - to agree with, to concede, to admit one's self guilty
*believe (pisteu) - to put one's trust, be committed unto

A public profession of faith in and of itself is not going to save us. It is our affirmation of the full Gospel of God and trust we put in it.
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
Matthew 7:21
*True faith will not fail to produce the fruit of good works
*will (thelo) - to desire, to love, take delight in

10andBOUNCE said:

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Quote:

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May I ask a question?

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Of course!

Quote:

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Since the majority of Christian theologians from the beginning of the church do not agree with present day Reformed/Calvinist theology, are they all false teachers/heretics?

Doesn't it make you question things a little?

---

So I would say that labeling someone a heretic and false teacher shouldn't be taken lightly, and in regards to Jordan Riley, I think he often is a little over zealous with that label. Although it also is a weird time in that anyone nowadays can hop on YouTube and try to stir up a following and "teach" others. I consider many many Arminian teachers to be solid, Biblically based teachers and are not false. Obviously there is a difference in interpretation of what the scriptures are saying. Most churches I have been a part of in my early and now adult life were not reformed, and I don't have a problem with those churches I used to be a part of. I may disagree with many things now, but those are not salvific things.

Quote:

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If God is totally sovereign over salvation, what could Billy Graham or anyone do to change that?

All he could do is preach the Gospel, correct? How could anyone have false or true assurance if they do not know who the elect are?

---

Nobody can thwart God's will. Yes, the teaching and the proclamation of the Gospel and God's Word is really all that anyone can and should do. Assurance is rooted in always pointing to Christ and not unto ourselves. Looking at ourselves and our performance for assurance, we will always be unsure.

Quote:

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And I also wonder what requirements you have beyond a public profession of faith?

I do not have the ability to know whether anyone is truly saved.

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Right there with you. I have no ability to know for sure whether you or anyone else is truly saved.

"because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved."
Romans 10:9-10
*confess (homologe) - to agree with, to concede, to admit one's self guilty
*believe (pisteu) - to put one's trust, be committed unto

A public profession of faith in and of itself is not going to save us. It is our affirmation of the full Gospel of God and trust we put in it.
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
Matthew 7:21
*True faith will not fail to produce the fruit of good works
*will (thelo) - to desire, to love, take delight in

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I have no problem with your beliefs or posts.

I do know quite a few clergy and seminarians who tell me that the "Young, restless, and reformed" are splitting and destroying seminaries and churches because of absolute insistence on believing exactly as they do. And Riley, who you linked, seems to be one of those guys.

I appreciate the thoughts and probably will agree that the vibe Jordan puts off is of that nature you're describing. I think he is serving an important and overlooked role, but could use some tweaking himself. Not that I am of any authority; he is not a teacher of mine by any means. My favorite teacher is probably RC, and he was always quick to acknowledge he didn't know certain things, which I always appreciated. Just a certain humble and gentle spirit.

As far as seminaries, I am not really in the know there, but the little I have heard, I think is stemming from seminaries becoming more progressive. If true, I 100% support a resistance to that.

10andBOUNCE said:

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I appreciate the thoughts and probably will agree that the vibe Jordan puts off is of that nature you're describing. I think he is serving an important and overlooked role, but could use some tweaking himself. Not that I am of any authority; he is not a teacher of mine by any means. My favorite teacher is probably RC, and he was always quick to acknowledge he didn't know certain things, which I always appreciated. Just a certain humble and gentle spirit.

As far as seminaries, I am not really in the know there, but the little I have heard, I think is stemming from seminaries becoming more progressive. If true, I 100% support a resistance to that.

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The guys I know are definitely not progressive.

And RC Sproul is definitely my favorite Reformed theologian. But man, he tap dances around double predestination. Which actually makes me admire him more.

May I ask why you became Reformed in your theology?

confess (homologe) - to agree with, to concede, to admit one's self guilty


Admit oneself guilty?

Yes, while I wouldn't describe it as tap dancing, I would say that his humility shines through on double predestination. He gives enough of an understanding to know what it is and what it is not (it is not both God saving and damning people, but rather the saving and passing over, as we already discussed). It is not a close the book kind of answer and he readily admits that we have to be ok with the tension this leaves us in. We aren't going to know everything.

My dad has played a major role in my wife and I moving to the reformed camp. He grew up inner city Chicago, RCC all the way. His story plays right in to mine, as he and my mom were saved when when we lived in Houston when I was about 10. At that point we grew up in a Bible Church in Cypress, TX. My parents got divorced when I graduated high school in 2004, and at that point my dad "walked away" from God, or so he thought. In those years, he was far from God believing God had turned his back on him since his marriage was not reconciled. After many years, God brought him back; there is no other explanation. Like the story in Acts I brought up before, he was dragged back and faith was renewed. At that point, his faith was shaped by the works of Spurgeon, Sproul and other reformed theologians.

So it really was talking to him through his experience and what he learned, that all of the aspects of TULIP were illuminated. As I began to get into them more myself, I was convinced of most of it as well. I believe we are all truly depraved, elected by God's sovereign choice, and that the LORD will keep his saints until the end. I didn't have all the answers (and still have tension with some of it), but at the end of the day I rest in the fact that God is sovereign, over it all.

In parallel, my wife had many discussions about what church is meant to be and what is important to us. We didn't know it at the time, but the Reformed Baptist Church we are in now really checks off almost all of those things we longed for years before we made the jump. Family worship was paramount. Too many churches we belonged to in the past were more concerned with entertaining kids than discipling families. Church becoming entertainment for anyone is going to build an awfully shallow faith. Our church life now is deeper than it's ever been, and the body is truly striving to walk along side us in certain things that many others wouldn't touch. The commitment to the 5 Solas drive everything. Right now we are studying Pilgrim's Progress in Sunday School; talk about a true gem from Bunyan. It will be a life altering writing for our family when it is all said and done.

Long story short, I am very much still in my faith journey, specifically with understanding the reformed faith. Every week I am uncovering more areas of my life that needs reformation.

Zobel said:

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confess (homologe) - to agree with, to concede, to admit one's self guilty


Admit oneself guilty?

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Yes, was just defining the Greek word used from Strong's Definitions of Greek and Hebrew.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/resources/lexical/strongs-definitions.cfm

What is the question?

10andBOUNCE said:

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Yes, while I wouldn't describe it as tap dancing, I would say that his humility shines through on double predestination. He gives enough of an understanding to know what it is and what it is not (it is not both God saving and damning people, but rather the saving and passing over, as we already discussed). It is not a close the book kind of answer and he readily admits that we have to be ok with the tension this leaves us in. We aren't going to know everything.

My dad has played a major role in my wife and I moving to the reformed camp. He grew up inner city Chicago, RCC all the way. His story plays right in to mine, as he and my mom were saved when when we lived in Houston when I was about 10. At that point we grew up in a Bible Church in Cypress, TX. My parents got divorced when I graduated high school in 2004, and at that point my dad "walked away" from God, or so he thought. In those years, he was far from God believing God had turned his back on him since his marriage was not reconciled. After many years, God brought him back; there is no other explanation. Like the story in Acts I brought up before, he was dragged back and faith was renewed. At that point, his faith was shaped by the works of Spurgeon, Sproul and other reformed theologians.

So it really was talking to him through his experience and what he learned, that all of the aspects of TULIP were illuminated. As I began to get into them more myself, I was convinced of most of it as well. I believe we are all truly depraved, elected by God's sovereign choice, and that the LORD will keep his saints until the end. I didn't have all the answers (and still have tension with some of it), but at the end of the day I rest in the fact that God is sovereign, over it all.

In parallel, my wife had many discussions about what church is meant to be and what is important to us. We didn't know it at the time, but the Reformed Baptist Church we are in now really checks off almost all of those things we longed for years before we made the jump. Family worship was paramount. Too many churches we belonged to in the past were more concerned with entertaining kids than discipling families. Church becoming entertainment for anyone is going to build an awfully shallow faith. Our church life now is deeper than it's ever been, and the body is truly striving to walk along side us in certain things that many others wouldn't touch. The commitment to the 5 Solas drive everything. Right now we are studying Pilgrim's Progress in Sunday School; talk about a true gem from Bunyan. It will be a life altering writing for our family when it is all said and done.

Long story short, I am very much still in my faith journey, specifically with understanding the reformed faith. Every week I am uncovering more areas of my life that needs reformation.

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Great story and however you or I get there to me is a mystery.

I grew up in a Southern Baptist church and was not exposed to Reformed theology until I got older. Never made sense to me but I never called the proponents heretics. My experience with Reformed folks is that most of them
Do not really know their theology as when asked almost all will say it is a person's choice and they believe in free will. Then you have the hyper Calvinists who basically believe if you do not agree with them on every secondary belief you are not saved.

Refreshing to hear your story and perspective.

It is just weird to randomly list definitions. It certainly isn't the appropriate translation for that verse.

Appreciate the discourse!

Aren't we all "heretics" to someone or another?!? LoL!

88Warrior said:

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Aren't we all "heretics" to someone or another?!? LoL!

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Exactly. But the guy we are talking about is way over the top in my opinion. That is why I said from the start that as soon as someone calls everybody who does not believe exactly like him/her heretics I tune the out.

And I do not call anyone a heretic who believes in the basic Gospel.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Appreciate the discourse!

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Same here.