Really enjoying this app. I have a longer work commute now and love that I can listen to the bible via audio on this app. I'm going through the gospels right now. Matthew 23 jumped out at me in the audio version. Jesus (God's) anger towards religion for religion's sake is front and center. That whole chapter is dripping with resentment for the Pharisees and teachers of the law that did not have God's love in their hearts but only wanted to focus on following the laws of Moses.

Not sure where you got that. It says the opposite: v3 do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice.

I found this helpful
https://www.franknelte.net/article.php?article_id=284

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Not sure where you got that. It says the opposite: v3 do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice.

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What did I say that was the opposite of that? I don't think anything I wrote contradicts that.

There was no contrast between love of God and following the laws of Moses (in Matt. 23 at least). His criticism was that they didn't follow the laws of Moses. Following God's laws is love for him. "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

I don't know how you're interpreting it that way but I'm not going to argue with you about it. He clearly states that they (Pharisees) follow Moses's law but have no love for God in their hearts. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one friend.

SpiderDude said:

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I don't know how you're interpreting it that way but I'm not going to argue with you about it. He clearly states that they (Pharisees) follow Moses's law but have no love for God in their hearts. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one friend.

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I quoted the verse that summarizes the problem: they did NOT follow Moses's law in practice. They preached it, but didn't practice it. That, of course, means they have no love for God in their hearts.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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SpiderDude said:

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I don't know how you're interpreting it that way but I'm not going to argue with you about it. He clearly states that they (Pharisees) follow Moses's law but have no love for God in their hearts. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one friend.

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I quoted the verse that summarizes the problem: they did NOT follow Moses's law in practice. They preached it, but didn't practice it. That, of course, means they have no love for God in their hearts.

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We are not under Moses law since the cross. They still were when Jesus spoke this.

And Jesus was making the point that we can not keep the Mosiac Law. Even the religious leaders. Our only hope is Him.

Jordan Riley put out a video not long ago warning of the dangers of this app.

Some "theology" is wrong. It's not a choose your own adventure.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Some "theology" is wrong. It's not a choose your own adventure.

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Agree. Double predestination is wrong. Limited atonement is wrong In fact, all of TULIP is wrong according to early Christianity and the Orthodox Church.

But I do not call brothers/sisters in Christ heretics.

Which brother or sister that he mentioned do you believe is a genuine brother or sister in the faith? How many false teachers would it take for you to abandon a certain platform like YouVersion?

Also, interesting you jumped right to reformed theology. Not sure that was even evident. Arminian theology should be right there against some of these prosperity/motivational speakers.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Also, interesting you jumped right to reformed theology. Not sure that was even evident. Arminian theology should be right there against some of these prosperity/motivational speakers.

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I jumped to Reformed theology because they are Reformed according to their website. To be honest, I could already tell that by their presentation. I personally feel that the doctrines of double predestination and limited atonement are just as dangerous as "prosperity gospel" stuff.

In my opinion, both besmirch the character of God. But that is just my opinion. And it is just their opinion.

I would not call them heretics.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Which brother or sister that he mentioned do you believe is a genuine brother or sister in the faith? How many false teachers would it take for you to abandon a certain platform like YouVersion?

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And I am fine with You version.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Most of the time, I think double predestination is misunderstood. Same can be said about limited atonement.

I am okay disagreeing with people on those TULIP things, but if you're telling me the dangers of Joel Osteen and your perceived danger of RC Sproul are equivalent, that's a bridge too far I am afraid.

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Seriously then explain double predestination and limited atonement to me.

I have read Augustine, Calvin, all the modern day Reformed theologians and I do not know what I am not understanding.

I understand the concept of "passing over" rather than "electing".

But the outcome is the same. And if God has pre ordained who He will "pass over", then He has pre ordained who is hell bound.

And how do you know that is not your child? How can you have a child not knowing whether they are pre ordained to ECT hell?

And what does that say about the character of God? Hitler could only kill you without you having a chance. In your theology, God pre ordains people to ECT hell. Which is forever.

And yes, I believe that is just as dangerous than phony prosperity gospel preachers although I think you are being a pretty quick judge on Myers and Osteen. Just my opinion.

Double predestination makes God into the most maniacal entity ever imagined.

And again, this is just my opinion and I believe Reformed Christians are saved. I wonder if they ever really think through what their theology actually claims.

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Most of the time, I think double predestination is misunderstood. Same can be said about limited atonement.

I am okay disagreeing with people on those TULIP things, but if you're telling me the dangers of Joel Osteen and your perceived danger of RC Sproul are equivalent, that's a bridge too far I am afraid.

---

Seriously then explain double predestination and limited atonement to me.

I have read Augustine, Calvin, all the modern day Reformed theologians and I do not know what I am not understanding.

I understand the concept of "passing over" rather than "electing".

But the outcome is the same. And if God has pre ordained who He will "pass over", then He has pre ordained who is hell bound.

And how do you know that is not your child? How can you have a child not knowing whether they are pre ordained to ECT hell?

And what does that say about the character of God? Hitler could only kill you without you having a chance. In your theology, God pre ordains people to ECT hell. Which is forever.

And yes, I believe that is just as dangerous than phony prosperity gospel preachers although I think you are being a pretty quick judge on Myers and Osteen. Just my opinion.

Double predestination makes God into the most maniacal entity ever imagined.

And again, this is just my opinion and I believe Reformed Christians are saved. I wonder if they ever really think through what their theology actually claims.

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If you have read works of those reformed theologians, there is nothing new I am going to bring to the table. I struggle with certain things from time to time myself as someone who is fairly new to the reformed faith, but at the end of the day it is what I believe.

As a baseline, Job 38 is one of my most cherished parts in all of scripture. It helps me to remember that God is holy, I am not. Who am I to question the will, plans and purposes of God? There are certain things about God I will never understand. He is God and can do what he wants. And whatever he does, is holy.
"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding." Job 38:4
Additionally, we all are deserving of a life sentence in hell due to our sinful nature. So the idea that it is unfair that God would pass over some and elect others shows that he is either showing justice or mercy. But in no way is God showing an injustice. Why does God call some and not others? It simply is not for me or you to know. To me this shows that God's character is holy, loving, just, wrathful, merciful and gracious (among many other attributes).

People are totally depraved by their nature at birth, ever since Adam. I imagine you probably agree with this since you didn't bring up the "T" in TULIP. Due to this broken nature, humans cannot choose to love and follow God on their own. The only way people are able to repent and turn from their sinful lives is through the regenerative work of the holy spirit, as the LORD draws us to him.

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:44
RC Sproul pointed out that the word "draw" is the same Greek word (dragged) used in the passage from Acts 16:19: "But when her owners saw that their hope of gain was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace before the rulers."
So for me, that shows that God isn't simply encouraging or enticing us to follow him. As the passage in Acts says, Paul was dragged into the marketplace; not persuaded.
Other Greek literature has indicated the description of that word to be how someone draws water out of a well.

Still not sure we have much common ground to stand on if you think there is any good coming from someone like Joel Osteen. The guy never preaches the Word of God. Never preaches sin or the full gospel. Only that God wants to make you happy and prosperous.

My wife and I talk often about the implications of our beliefs and our son. Our approach is that we do what we can to teach God's Word to him daily. There is absolutely nothing we can do to convince or persuade him to give his life to Christ. We obviously choose to play a part and let God work through us, but if God is going to save our son, he will.

Double predestination (with a positive/negative view) makes God into a gracious and just God. If God left us up to our own devices, we would all end up in Hell.

So yes, I think through what I believe, but I also understand the rub. I don't know how one can read through Romans 9 and not come to the same understanding, but I obviously know that happens and is likely not a salvific issue

Limited atonement is a fun one. Simply put, Christ did not die for those who do not believe. Christ's sacrifice on the cross was a complete and perfect work. If Christ died for every single person who has walked the earth, then that means everybody would be saved because everyone's sins have been atoned for through that sacrifice.

Very civil answer that I have no problem with. Job is my favorite book of the Bible and I agree completely with the holiness, majesty, and sovereignty of God.

Where we disagree is on the character of God. To be honest, I would not have had children if I believed they were pre ordained to ECT hell. It would be better if they never were born in my opinion.

I do agree these are not salvific issues.

We will agree to disagree.

Shalom.

Just out of curiosity, for those people who do not accept the free gift of grace, is that a surprise to God? Or do you view it as something that God knew would happen (knows what people ultimately will choose)?

And you bring up the sovereignty of God. Do you believe his sovereignty is limited if he is not sovereign over salvation?

10andBOUNCE said:

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Just out of curiosity, for those people who do not accept the free gift of grace, is that a surprise to God? Or do you view it as something that God knew would happen (knows what people ultimately will choose)?

And you bring up the sovereignty of God. Do you believe his sovereignty is limited if he is not sovereign over salvation?

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Difficult questions that I am not sure I know the answer how it all works. And I do not think anyone does.

All I know is that I believe in free will or else God does not really love us. I also do not believe God pre ordains people to hell. As I said, I would not have had kids if I believed that.

Do you believe God desires all men to be saved as stated in Scripture?

This is definitely not cut and dry, But Scripture says God is love and I am convinced He is good.

Thank you for the civil discussion.

Yep! You as well.
(Sorry for thread hi-jacking)

10andBOUNCE said:

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Yep! You as well.
(Sorry for thread hi-jacking)

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No worries.

dermdoc said:

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Do you believe God desires all men to be saved as stated in Scripture?

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Yes, 1 Timothy 2 says so.
I am not going to pretend to be able to exposit this, but it is often advertised as God's two wills (secret and revealed wills). I find some of the Greek interesting on it, albeit I am a complete novice at trying to follow some of the bread crumbs.

boulomai (Matt 11:27) - to "will," i.e. (reflexively) be willing:be disposed, minded, intend, list, (be, of own) will (-ing)
thelo (1 Timothy 2:4) - to delight in: desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, - ling(-ly))

So if God desires to save all men (which is clearly stated in Scripture) and is totally sovereign (which I believe and think you do also), isn't the logical conclusion that all are ultimately reconciled to God?

That is some people's conclusion, yes.

God has other desires in this world that simply don't hold true 100% of the time. God desires or wills there to not be murder, but there is. God desires all to be saved, but some are not. Not going to pretend to understand the desires of God.

2 Timothy 2:24-26
And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Most of the time, I think double predestination is misunderstood. Same can be said about limited atonement.

I am okay disagreeing with people on those TULIP things, but if you're telling me the dangers of Joel Osteen and your perceived danger of RC Sproul are equivalent, that's a bridge too far I am afraid.

---

Seriously then explain double predestination and limited atonement to me.

I have read Augustine, Calvin, all the modern day Reformed theologians and I do not know what I am not understanding.

I understand the concept of "passing over" rather than "electing".

But the outcome is the same. And if God has pre ordained who He will "pass over", then He has pre ordained who is hell bound.

And how do you know that is not your child? How can you have a child not knowing whether they are pre ordained to ECT hell?

And what does that say about the character of God? Hitler could only kill you without you having a chance. In your theology, God pre ordains people to ECT hell. Which is forever.

And yes, I believe that is just as dangerous than phony prosperity gospel preachers although I think you are being a pretty quick judge on Myers and Osteen. Just my opinion.

Double predestination makes God into the most maniacal entity ever imagined.

And again, this is just my opinion and I believe Reformed Christians are saved. I wonder if they ever really think through what their theology actually claims.

---

If you have read works of those reformed theologians, there is nothing new I am going to bring to the table. I struggle with certain things from time to time myself as someone who is fairly new to the reformed faith, but at the end of the day it is what I believe.

As a baseline, Job 38 is one of my most cherished parts in all of scripture. It helps me to remember that God is holy, I am not. Who am I to question the will, plans and purposes of God? There are certain things about God I will never understand. He is God and can do what he wants. And whatever he does, is holy.
"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding." Job 38:4
Additionally, we all are deserving of a life sentence in hell due to our sinful nature. So the idea that it is unfair that God would pass over some and elect others shows that he is either showing justice or mercy. But in no way is God showing an injustice. Why does God call some and not others? It simply is not for me or you to know. To me this shows that God's character is holy, loving, just, wrathful, merciful and gracious (among many other attributes).

People are totally depraved by their nature at birth, ever since Adam. I imagine you probably agree with this since you didn't bring up the "T" in TULIP. Due to this broken nature, humans cannot choose to love and follow God on their own. The only way people are able to repent and turn from their sinful lives is through the regenerative work of the holy spirit, as the LORD draws us to him.

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:44
RC Sproul pointed out that the word "draw" is the same Greek word (dragged) used in the passage from Acts 16:19: "But when her owners saw that their hope of gain was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace before the rulers."
So for me, that shows that God isn't simply encouraging or enticing us to follow him. As the passage in Acts says, Paul was dragged into the marketplace; not persuaded.
Other Greek literature has indicated the description of that word to be how someone draws water out of a well.

Still not sure we have much common ground to stand on if you think there is any good coming from someone like Joel Osteen. The guy never preaches the Word of God. Never preaches sin or the full gospel. Only that God wants to make you happy and prosperous.

My wife and I talk often about the implications of our beliefs and our son. Our approach is that we do what we can to teach God's Word to him daily. There is absolutely nothing we can do to convince or persuade him to give his life to Christ. We obviously choose to play a part and let God work through us, but if God is going to save our son, he will.

Double predestination (with a positive/negative view) makes God into a gracious and just God. If God left us up to our own devices, we would all end up in Hell.

So yes, I think through what I believe, but I also understand the rub. I don't know how one can read through Romans 9 and not come to the same understanding, but I obviously know that happens and is likely not a salvific issue

Limited atonement is a fun one. Simply put, Christ did not die for those who do not believe. Christ's sacrifice on the cross was a complete and perfect work. If Christ died for every single person who has walked the earth, then that means everybody would be saved because everyone's sins have been atoned for through that sacrifice.

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So I agree that God has the elect, but he also gives us free will to choose to accept his Grace. But I think some might read the 'dragging' as nothing we do matters if we are forced to come to Christ. Christ died for EVERYONE, but only those who have faith will be saved. To say he did not directly opposes scripture. God so loved the WORLD that he gave His only Son. I don't read WORLD as only the elect. And if we believe we are part of the elect and then sin, then it causes one to question if they were really every part of the elect as opposed to realizing we still falter as Christians. I would think the anxiety of wondering if you are the elect or not would be immense. I absolutely believe the Holy Spirit guides us but we have to seek Him and continue to persevere in this life. Certainly God knows all and time is irrelevant, so he is aware of who will be saved....but that doesn't remove the individuals will. Joel Osteen is totally irrelevant in these discussions because he doesn't really preach a consistent theology in accordance with the scriptures.
It was ironic that Sproul was a Thomist and eschewed the Catholic Church.
But that's the thing about Calvinism, it eschews the RCC while holding fast to a doctrine that didn't exist until the 16th century. Guess every Christian up until then, including the Church fathers had it wrong until then.

Calvin based his entire theology basically on one church father, Augustine. And modern Reformed eschew the Catholic Church.

It makes no sense to me.

And the stress of not knowing whether my kids were pre ordained to hell would drive me crazy.

dermdoc said:

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And the stress of not knowing whether my kids were pre ordained to hell would drive me crazy.

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To be quite frank, thoughts about my son's salvation drive me to be in a position of complete surrender, submission and reverence to the will of God. With that being said, I think regardless of your theology, you as a parent have very little (microscopically small) control over your children's salvation. For those in the free will camp, your kids will choose what they choose (seems more scary to me). The Bible is rich with examples of Godly men who had children that strayed far from God.

dermdoc said:

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And modern Reformed eschew the Catholic Church.

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What are you talking about? We give a shout out in the Apostles Creed.

I believe in God,
the Father almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried;
he descended into hell;
on the third day he rose again from the dead;
he ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.

It may help to think that all of us should be preordained to hell.

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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And the stress of not knowing whether my kids were pre ordained to hell would drive me crazy.

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To be quite frank, thoughts about my son's salvation drive me to be in a position of complete surrender, submission and reverence to the will of God. With that being said, I think regardless of your theology, you as a parent have very little (microscopically small) control over your children's salvation. For those in the free will camp, your kids will choose what they choose (seems more scary to me). The Bible is rich with examples of Godly men who had children that strayed far from God.

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Which begs the question...We're they 'men of God' to begin with? I think you cannot know the heart of another the same way you can't know who is the elect. In both cases you still seek to grow more in Christ every day and persevere until the end.

Believe double predestination doesn't affect ones salvation. It just seems like a unique perspective about who will be saved. None of us will definitively know until we stand before the Lord whether we phrase it as knowing we are the elect or know that we are saved. But we can receive God's graces in this life, seek his love and mercy, and serve him faithfully.

We all hope that our loved ones are saved. We can still be the elect AND have freely chosen our path. It depends on whose perspective we view it from. Of course God is not bound by time and is omnipotent. But in our current reality, we experience the free will he gave us. The idea that God MUST have a decree of election for the saved and the damned, lest he not be truly omnipotent is just man testing God. He can know the results without having preordained the winners and losers.