DeProfundis said:

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RAB91 said:

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IMO Catholic Charities (and other NGOs) has crossed the line from just providing humanitarian aid to actually facility the illegal immigration (and thus facilitating sex trafficking).

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Very much so, I believe these organizations are populated by well intentioned servants at the ground level and ill intentioned lefties at the operational level.

The same thing happened with the Somali flood that hit Minnesota. Lutheran and Catholic charities teamed up with Big Chicken (not joking) to import tens of thousands of Somalians to undercut chicken processing wages.

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Exactly. And while hurting citizens, we're also only helping a tiny fraction of the people that need help. What needs to happen is getting their home countries in order, not simply letting some of them come here.

Lol. Bustup is back again.

I was more interested in the religious perspective in light of the teachings of Jesus than the political view which is based on laws, not necessarily God's Law.

Slavery comes to mind. I am sure there was a JRico posting back in the 1800's for shutting down the Underground Railroad because it was breaking the law.

"One may well ask, 'How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?' The answer is found in the fact that there are two types of laws: there are just laws, and there are unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that 'An unjust law is no law at all.'

Now, what is the difference between the two? How does one determine when a law is just or unjust? A just law is a man-made code that squares with the moral law, or the law of God. An unjust law is a code that is out of harmony with the moral law. To put it in the terms of St. Thomas Aquinas, an unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal and natural law." Martin Luther King, Jr. "Letter from a Birmingham Jail," (August 1963)

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With regards to military actions, closing bases or ordering troops to kill, those actions fall under the RCC's Just War doctrine. Not all actions are moral.

With regards to the question of taxation, I think Jesus did a great job of answering that in his time when he paid the temple tax with a coin from the mouth of a fish (Mt 17:24-27). Not all taxation is unjust.

Quote:

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With regards to military actions, closing bases or ordering troops to kill, those actions fall under the RCC's Just War doctrine. Not all actions are moral.

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I have zero familiarity with the RCC's just war doctrine. But in a just war, what are the armies fighting over? Could they be fighting over national boundaries? If so, why is it OK for armies to fight over boundaries, but not OK for nations to enforce their own boundaries?

Also, in your OP, wasn't Christ talking to individuals about their individual responsibilities? By what mechanism do you extend Christ's teachings to national policy?

Finally, even on an individual level, what do you do when that illegal migrant forces their way into your home and demands to stay there? Or several families set up camps in your back yard? Is our obligation as Christians unlimited? Do the folks receiving our mercy and aid have no responsibilities themselves?

To your first question; think of Nazi Germany and the war waged by Hitler during the late 1930s- mid 1940s. It is easy to understand that there was a clear evil that was intent on the destruction of innocent life. The military defense to combat this grave evil was morally justified. Here is a link for more information about Just War theory.

With regards to national boundaries; it is clear that we have a humanitarian crisis on the border. Indeed, we should have an orderly and fair process to evaluate claims of asylum. That is not in question. What is happening is that the Texas AG has targeted a non-profit, volunteer led organization that is responding to a religious teaching (the words of Jesus) to aid migrants (ALREADY PROCESSED) with food, water, and shelter. For all their efforts, Paxton has zeroed in on them as smugglers and operators of a "stash house." The smuggling part is ironic because Abbot has employed the very same effort by bussing many migrants to various cities across America.

With regards to Christ message being directed at individuals or larger communities (national policy), this goes back to my earlier comment about God's law vs. man-made code (as Dr. King refers to it). One should inform the other- I am not advocating for a theocracy at all, just that human dignity should be a consideration in the laws that we enact.

To your last example of illegal migrants forcing their way into our homes and setting up camps in our/my backyard. Indeed, there is a responsibility for migrants to obey just laws such as laws against stealing, murder, assault, etc. I have family within a block of the border in El Paso. They want the situation to be under control but at the same time humane and not degrading. This is what most people want I believe. An orderly process that respects people in crisis.

RAB91 said:

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IMO Catholic Charities (and other NGOs) has crossed the line from just providing humanitarian aid to actually facility the illegal immigration (and thus facilitating sex trafficking).

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And I think there lies the problem. Helping those that have gone through the process and immigration officials are aware of them is fine. Facilitating more to come over or hiding illegal immigrants is not what they should be doing.

Where do you see that happening?

Jabin said:

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Quote:

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With regards to military actions, closing bases or ordering troops to kill, those actions fall under the RCC's Just War doctrine. Not all actions are moral.

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I have zero familiarity with the RCC's just war doctrine. But in a just war, what are the armies fighting over? Could they be fighting over national boundaries? If so, why is it OK for armies to fight over boundaries, but not OK for nations to enforce their own boundaries?

Also, in your OP, wasn't Christ talking to individuals about their individual responsibilities? By what mechanism do you extend Christ's teachings to national policy?

Finally, even on an individual level, what do you do when that illegal migrant forces their way into your home and demands to stay there? Or several families set up camps in your back yard? Is our obligation as Christians unlimited? Do the folks receiving our mercy and aid have no responsibilities themselves?

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I think we run into some real issues if we try to make fit Christ's teachings in our national policies. These policies were not necessarily created with a great deal of study of scripture and prayer with the goal of making the policy from Christs teachings. I'm not saying that would be a bad thing, but these policies were made by men for many reasons, and while one of them might have some basis in Christs' teachings, a lot of it was out of pragmatism and necessity.

I also think we are at a point now where people are using Christ's teachings and their own interpretation for their own political gain rather than for His glory.

Yes, Christ teaches we have responsibilities, to our families and to our neighbors. The term 'neighbor' isn't defined in scripture as just those in your immediate circle, country, etc. So at minimum, we need border security that doesn't cause problem for our own neighbors here and our families, but we should also approach it with compassion for those who genuinely need help. Doesn't mean we have to keep them here, but we do have to treat them as Christ would.

BluHorseShu said:

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DeProfundis said:

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0 days since Pablo mistakes the Democratic platform with Catholic teaching.

I'm not one of those "shoot on sight" guys, illegal migrants should be treated humanely and then returned back across the border. Shelter and aid should be temporary and always with the intended goal of returning them back to their country of origin. If you show up at my house running a fever and malnourished I have a moral obligation to give you aid. You do not have a moral claim to live in my house against my will.

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This is a good point. I only wish most clarified their stance against immigration with these caveats. I'm afraid there are an awful lot of 'shoot on sight' or at least 'I don't care if harm comes to them' people.

Anyone calling themselves a Christian while also trying to twist scripture to validate harming immigrants needs to rethink their walk.

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I have kind of an uneasy acceptance of harm coming to them if they foist the harm upon themself although it still doesn't feel right.

Take the barbed wire for example; am I okay with illegal migrants and their families getting sliced while trying to enter the country? On one hand, no; but on the other hand, barbed wire doesn't mean "try to come in and get cut while doing so" it means "do not try and cross". As I mentioned earlier, if people were running headfirst into the walls of my house and paralyzing themselves, I wouldn't be a monster for keeping them up; I would say "hey don't do that".

PabloSerna said:

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Where do you see that happening?

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I'm not saying I know definitively if it is or isn't. I'm just saying that their care for undocumented immigrants has limits. We are called to have compassion...but also prudence.

Maybe they're not. And I don't doubt Paxton sees these equally, or more, about political gain for himself. I don't see him as someone who is concerned daily with the moral virtues in scripture.

DeProfundis said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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DeProfundis said:

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0 days since Pablo mistakes the Democratic platform with Catholic teaching.

I'm not one of those "shoot on sight" guys, illegal migrants should be treated humanely and then returned back across the border. Shelter and aid should be temporary and always with the intended goal of returning them back to their country of origin. If you show up at my house running a fever and malnourished I have a moral obligation to give you aid. You do not have a moral claim to live in my house against my will.

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This is a good point. I only wish most clarified their stance against immigration with these caveats. I'm afraid there are an awful lot of 'shoot on sight' or at least 'I don't care if harm comes to them' people.

Anyone calling themselves a Christian while also trying to twist scripture to validate harming immigrants needs to rethink their walk.

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I have kind of an uneasy acceptance of harm coming to them if they foist the harm upon themself although it still doesn't feel right.

Take the barbed wire for example; am I okay with illegal migrants and their families getting sliced while trying to enter the country? On one hand, no; but on the other hand, barbed wire doesn't mean "try to come in and get cut while doing so" it means "do not try and cross". As I mentioned earlier, if people were running headfirst into the walls of my house and paralyzing themselves, I wouldn't be a monster for keeping them up; I would say "hey don't do that".

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Well of course not. If they know the wire is there and still try to bring themselves and their children through those paths, that is their choice. I feel horrible for the children having to enduring what choices their parents make and I certainly don't relish the idea of the harm that befalls them.

But anyone calling for an 'alligator moat' as a deterrent, might as well bury land mines. At that point, we will have diverged from the ability to call ourselves a Christian nation.

PabloSerna said:

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Where do you see that happening?

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El Paso for one, at St.Patrick Cathedral; they have a shelter that houses illegal migrants AND provides resources on how to create an application for asylum and essentially game the system.

You can also include Catholic Charities of the Rio Grande Valley, the Hope Border Institute, and the Jesuit Refugee Service as well; and those are just the ones operating on the border.

BluHorseShu said:

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DeProfundis said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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DeProfundis said:

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0 days since Pablo mistakes the Democratic platform with Catholic teaching.

I'm not one of those "shoot on sight" guys, illegal migrants should be treated humanely and then returned back across the border. Shelter and aid should be temporary and always with the intended goal of returning them back to their country of origin. If you show up at my house running a fever and malnourished I have a moral obligation to give you aid. You do not have a moral claim to live in my house against my will.

---

This is a good point. I only wish most clarified their stance against immigration with these caveats. I'm afraid there are an awful lot of 'shoot on sight' or at least 'I don't care if harm comes to them' people.

Anyone calling themselves a Christian while also trying to twist scripture to validate harming immigrants needs to rethink their walk.

---

I have kind of an uneasy acceptance of harm coming to them if they foist the harm upon themself although it still doesn't feel right.

Take the barbed wire for example; am I okay with illegal migrants and their families getting sliced while trying to enter the country? On one hand, no; but on the other hand, barbed wire doesn't mean "try to come in and get cut while doing so" it means "do not try and cross". As I mentioned earlier, if people were running headfirst into the walls of my house and paralyzing themselves, I wouldn't be a monster for keeping them up; I would say "hey don't do that".

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Well of course not. If they know the wire is there and still try to bring themselves and their children through those paths, that is their choice. I feel horrible for the children having to enduring what choices their parents make and I certainly don't relish the idea of the harm that befalls them.

But anyone calling for an 'alligator moat' as a deterrent, might as well bury land mines. At that point, we will have diverged from the ability to call ourselves a Christian nation.

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Well said, but part of me does wonder if these people are thinking of deterrence. Make the punishment so heinous that no body dares. I have toyed with the idea of complete asset forfeiture for any illegals caught in the country. Take their car, and literally every piece of property they have, phones, clothes, electronics, equipment, jewelry, etc; give them a jumpsuit, feed and clothe and treat them humanely while they're with you, and then release them on the other side of the border.

There has to be some way to disincentivize the people who continually try to enter despite being deported, and this is possibly the most humane way I can think of.

BluHorseShu said:

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DeProfundis said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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DeProfundis said:

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0 days since Pablo mistakes the Democratic platform with Catholic teaching.

I'm not one of those "shoot on sight" guys, illegal migrants should be treated humanely and then returned back across the border. Shelter and aid should be temporary and always with the intended goal of returning them back to their country of origin. If you show up at my house running a fever and malnourished I have a moral obligation to give you aid. You do not have a moral claim to live in my house against my will.

---

This is a good point. I only wish most clarified their stance against immigration with these caveats. I'm afraid there are an awful lot of 'shoot on sight' or at least 'I don't care if harm comes to them' people.

Anyone calling themselves a Christian while also trying to twist scripture to validate harming immigrants needs to rethink their walk.

---

I have kind of an uneasy acceptance of harm coming to them if they foist the harm upon themself although it still doesn't feel right.

Take the barbed wire for example; am I okay with illegal migrants and their families getting sliced while trying to enter the country? On one hand, no; but on the other hand, barbed wire doesn't mean "try to come in and get cut while doing so" it means "do not try and cross". As I mentioned earlier, if people were running headfirst into the walls of my house and paralyzing themselves, I wouldn't be a monster for keeping them up; I would say "hey don't do that".

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Well of course not. If they know the wire is there and still try to bring themselves and their children through those paths, that is their choice. I feel horrible for the children having to enduring what choices their parents make and I certainly don't relish the idea of the harm that befalls them.

But anyone calling for an 'alligator moat' as a deterrent, might as well bury land mines. At that point, we will have diverged from the ability to call ourselves a Christian nation.

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This is why the immigration debate has gone completely off the rails.

The system is broken and it's become a humanitarian crisis. What we need is more enforcement, resources, and reform of the system as a whole. People will continue trying to come to the US. It's insane to me that we have Abbott and people of the likes of F16 advocating for using deadly force to deter immigrants from crossing illegally. I can't believe I have to explain that breaking immigration laws does not mean you deserve to die or be seriously injured as punishment. If you set deadly traps for trespassers on your property, you can be sued or prosecuted. Force that harsh is considered unreasonable.

As for Paxton, I truly think he does not see any distinction between legal migrants and illegal immigrants. They're all the same to him. So a Catholic organization providing basic needs to them is seen as "aiding" illegal immigration.

BluHorseShu said:

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DeProfundis said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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DeProfundis said:

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0 days since Pablo mistakes the Democratic platform with Catholic teaching.

I'm not one of those "shoot on sight" guys, illegal migrants should be treated humanely and then returned back across the border. Shelter and aid should be temporary and always with the intended goal of returning them back to their country of origin. If you show up at my house running a fever and malnourished I have a moral obligation to give you aid. You do not have a moral claim to live in my house against my will.

---

This is a good point. I only wish most clarified their stance against immigration with these caveats. I'm afraid there are an awful lot of 'shoot on sight' or at least 'I don't care if harm comes to them' people.

Anyone calling themselves a Christian while also trying to twist scripture to validate harming immigrants needs to rethink their walk.

---

I have kind of an uneasy acceptance of harm coming to them if they foist the harm upon themself although it still doesn't feel right.

Take the barbed wire for example; am I okay with illegal migrants and their families getting sliced while trying to enter the country? On one hand, no; but on the other hand, barbed wire doesn't mean "try to come in and get cut while doing so" it means "do not try and cross". As I mentioned earlier, if people were running headfirst into the walls of my house and paralyzing themselves, I wouldn't be a monster for keeping them up; I would say "hey don't do that".

---

Well of course not. If they know the wire is there and still try to bring themselves and their children through those paths, that is their choice. I feel horrible for the children having to enduring what choices their parents make and I certainly don't relish the idea of the harm that befalls them.

But anyone calling for an 'alligator moat' as a deterrent, might as well bury land mines. At that point, we will have diverged from the ability to call ourselves a Christian nation.

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i understand what you mean by that, but an awful comparison. that's a locked door with a 2A flag outside vs a closed but unlocked door with a booby trapped house.

i'm one of the most pro-immigration "conservatives" i know, but if immigrants would go through ports of entry or even apply for legal migration instead of across a river, then this wouldn't be a discussion.

if people would keep things in or out of their pants, abortion wouldn't be a sticking point either.

the entire conversation is based around allowing the wrong thing to be done morally or legally and then the (avoidance of) consequences of that wrong thing.

DeProfundis said:

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PabloSerna said:

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Where do you see that happening?

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El Paso for one, at St.Patrick Cathedral; they have a shelter that houses illegal migrants AND provides resources on how to create an application for asylum and essentially game the system.

You can also include Catholic Charities of the Rio Grande Valley, the Hope Border Institute, and the Jesuit Refugee Service as well; and those are just the ones operating on the border.

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Well I looked into each of these and none of them are actively smuggling more illegal migrants into the USA nor are they "gaming" the system, whatever that means. Helping people who cannot read nor write is not "gaming" the system.

Are there bad actors? Yes.

Are the Cartels taking advantage of the immigration breakdown at the USA-Mexico border? Yes.

But..

Are there people who are fleeing a country and are rightly seeking asylum? Yes.

Are there people who are in dire need of food, clothing, and shelter? Yes.

So - It is not a black and white situation along our border. These non-profits have a place in this struggle to help people. Again, I find it remarkable that Paxton would pick on them as if they are some kind of cartel. I shouldn't be surprise, just another example of the dehumanization going on right in our backyard.

PabloSerna said:

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Where do you see that happening?

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We returned this morning on a tip that more illegals would be dropped off. What happened next was INSANE. Warning: graphic language. Casa Alitas security accosted our cameraman, threw his phone & left him w/ bloody lip. Then another masked security man threw rocks at our vehicle… pic.twitter.com/65kNdA93vT

— Rachel Campos-Duffy (@RCamposDuffy) February 26, 2024

https://www.casaalitas.org/

PabloSerna said:

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I was more interested in the religious perspective in light of the teachings of Jesus than the political view which is based on laws, not necessarily God's Law.

Slavery comes to mind. I am sure there was a JRico posting back in the 1800's for shutting down the Underground Railroad because it was breaking the law.

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"One Nation Under God"

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

From a Poem on the statue of liberty.

But if the first act you commit on US soil is illegal....ummmm

I dunno..its a tough situation. Some believe its all part of a plan to bring down the US.

Good move, word will get out among the human traffickers not to enter Texas for free housing/food in short order.

Let hope AG Paxton will give Rev. Franklin Graham a break... God Loves You Tour!!

In 2024, Franklin Graham is hitting the road again to bring the Good News to the southern United States border. Working alongside local pastors, churches, and volunteers, the God Loves You Frontera Tour will feature live music in English and Spanish and boldly share the Name of Jesus in 10 cities from Texas to California. All 10 stops will include a live Spanish interpretation from the stage.


"I can't think of another region of the nation that needs hope more than this one. Everyone along the border is overwhelmed churches, law enforcement, residents, as well as the people coming into our country. I'm coming to the border to tell everyone about God's Son, Jesus Christ, and how He can make a difference in our lives." Franklin Graham

c-jags said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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DeProfundis said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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DeProfundis said:

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0 days since Pablo mistakes the Democratic platform with Catholic teaching.

I'm not one of those "shoot on sight" guys, illegal migrants should be treated humanely and then returned back across the border. Shelter and aid should be temporary and always with the intended goal of returning them back to their country of origin. If you show up at my house running a fever and malnourished I have a moral obligation to give you aid. You do not have a moral claim to live in my house against my will.

---

This is a good point. I only wish most clarified their stance against immigration with these caveats. I'm afraid there are an awful lot of 'shoot on sight' or at least 'I don't care if harm comes to them' people.

Anyone calling themselves a Christian while also trying to twist scripture to validate harming immigrants needs to rethink their walk.

---

I have kind of an uneasy acceptance of harm coming to them if they foist the harm upon themself although it still doesn't feel right.

Take the barbed wire for example; am I okay with illegal migrants and their families getting sliced while trying to enter the country? On one hand, no; but on the other hand, barbed wire doesn't mean "try to come in and get cut while doing so" it means "do not try and cross". As I mentioned earlier, if people were running headfirst into the walls of my house and paralyzing themselves, I wouldn't be a monster for keeping them up; I would say "hey don't do that".

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Well of course not. If they know the wire is there and still try to bring themselves and their children through those paths, that is their choice. I feel horrible for the children having to enduring what choices their parents make and I certainly don't relish the idea of the harm that befalls them.

But anyone calling for an 'alligator moat' as a deterrent, might as well bury land mines. At that point, we will have diverged from the ability to call ourselves a Christian nation.

---

i understand what you mean by that, but an awful comparison. that's a locked door with a 2A flag outside vs a closed but unlocked door with a booby trapped house.

i'm one of the most pro-immigration "conservatives" i know, but if immigrants would go through ports of entry or even apply for legal migration instead of across a river, then this wouldn't be a discussion.

if people would keep things in or out of their pants, abortion wouldn't be a sticking point either.

the entire conversation is based around allowing the wrong thing to be done morally or legally and then the (avoidance of) consequences of that wrong thing.

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Based on my comparison, though, which do you think Jesus would approve of?

RAB91 said:

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PabloSerna said:

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Where do you see that happening?

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We returned this morning on a tip that more illegals would be dropped off. What happened next was INSANE. Warning: graphic language. Casa Alitas security accosted our cameraman, threw his phone & left him w/ bloody lip. Then another masked security man threw rocks at our vehicle… pic.twitter.com/65kNdA93vT

— Rachel Campos-Duffy (@RCamposDuffy) February 26, 2024

https://www.casaalitas.org/

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That's your proof? C'mon man!!



From their website:

Who We Are

Casa Alitas is a program of Catholic Community Services of Southern Arizona. The Casa Alitas Leadership Team and Volunteer Service Coordinators support a network of paid staff, volunteers, and interns to create a safe, just, and compassionate refuge for the migrant families transiting through our Southern Arizona border communities. The Casa Alitas program is sustained by an inter-denominational network of faith collaborators and inter-organizational partnerships with federal, state, and municipal government agencies; universities and colleges; and other non-governmental organizations.

Key word.. SAFE.