Bighunter43 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Bighunter43 said:

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dermdoc said:

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And were the saints who believed in ultimate reconciliation deceived by the "lies of Satan"?

---

Well Satan has been in the deceiving business quite a while….which "saints" are you referring to?

---

I will start with St. Gregory of Nyssa who was revered as one of the greatest theologians of his time.


And Bardiaisan, Clement, Origen, Didymis, St. Anthony,, St.Pamphilius Martyr, Methodisus, St. Evagiois, Diodore of Tarsus, St. John of Jerusalem, etc. There are a lot more.

So they are all deceived by Satan? And you are not?

---

Satan can certainly deceive anyone! He deceived Judas who walked with Jesus daily, and witnessed Jesus' teachings and miracles firsthand. I personally believe if all them believe that ALL people will one day be reconciled to Heaven, then they got it wrong. Bad theology has consequences….unfortunately, this doctrine you are promoting is definitely deceitful…it does diminish Christ's sacrifice on the cross. It basically says, "hey live it up on earth and what you do doesn't matter and your choices don't have eternal consequences, because God's going to let you in to Heaven in the end anyway…regardless if you accepted Christ as Savior or not!" Again…if that is what you believe then that is your choice. I personally do not believe it is Biblical.

---

Wow. That is not what I said at all. And neither was what the saints who agreed with me said.

And for the record, you are claiming that venerated saints who believe in ultimate reconciliation are being deceived by Satan?

dermdoc said:

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Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

And were the saints who believed in ultimate reconciliation deceived by the "lies of Satan"?

---

Well Satan has been in the deceiving business quite a while….which "saints" are you referring to?

---

I will start with St. Gregory of Nyssa who was revered as one of the greatest theologians of his time.


And Bardiaisan, Clement, Origen, Didymis, St. Anthony,, St.Pamphilius Martyr, Methodisus, St. Evagiois, Diodore of Tarsus, St. John of Jerusalem, etc. There are a lot more.

So they are all deceived by Satan? And you are not?

---

Satan can certainly deceive anyone! He deceived Judas who walked with Jesus daily, and witnessed Jesus' teachings and miracles firsthand. I personally believe if all them believe that ALL people will one day be reconciled to Heaven, then they got it wrong. Bad theology has consequences….unfortunately, this doctrine you are promoting is definitely deceitful…it does diminish Christ's sacrifice on the cross. It basically says, "hey live it up on earth and what you do doesn't matter and your choices don't have eternal consequences, because God's going to let you in to Heaven in the end anyway…regardless if you accepted Christ as Savior or not!" Again…if that is what you believe then that is your choice. I personally do not believe it is Biblical.

---

Wow. That is not what I said at all. And neither was what the saints who agreed with me said.

And for the record, you are claiming that venerated saints who believe in ultimate reconcile are being deceived by Satan?

---

IF they were preaching and teaching ultimate reconciliation, that ALL will one day be allowed in Heaven then yes, put me on record as saying they have been deceived! Ultimate Reconciliation is a false doctrine….

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

And were the saints who believed in ultimate reconciliation deceived by the "lies of Satan"?

---

Well Satan has been in the deceiving business quite a while….which "saints" are you referring to?

---

I will start with St. Gregory of Nyssa who was revered as one of the greatest theologians of his time.


And Bardiaisan, Clement, Origen, Didymis, St. Anthony,, St.Pamphilius Martyr, Methodisus, St. Evagiois, Diodore of Tarsus, St. John of Jerusalem, etc. There are a lot more.

So they are all deceived by Satan? And you are not?

---

Satan can certainly deceive anyone! He deceived Judas who walked with Jesus daily, and witnessed Jesus' teachings and miracles firsthand. I personally believe if all them believe that ALL people will one day be reconciled to Heaven, then they got it wrong. Bad theology has consequences….unfortunately, this doctrine you are promoting is definitely deceitful…it does diminish Christ's sacrifice on the cross. It basically says, "hey live it up on earth and what you do doesn't matter and your choices don't have eternal consequences, because God's going to let you in to Heaven in the end anyway…regardless if you accepted Christ as Savior or not!" Again…if that is what you believe then that is your choice. I personally do not believe it is Biblical.

---

Wow. That is not what I said at all. And neither was what the saints who agreed with me said.

And for the record, you are claiming that venerated saints who believe in ultimate reconcile are being deceived by Satan?

---

IF they were preaching and teaching ultimate reconciliation, that ALL will one day be allowed in Heaven then yes, put me on record as saying they have been deceived! Ultimate Reconciliation is a false doctrine….

---

No offense but think I will side with the saints.

dermdoc said:

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Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

And were the saints who believed in ultimate reconciliation deceived by the "lies of Satan"?

---

Well Satan has been in the deceiving business quite a while….which "saints" are you referring to?

---

I will start with St. Gregory of Nyssa who was revered as one of the greatest theologians of his time.


And Bardiaisan, Clement, Origen, Didymis, St. Anthony,, St.Pamphilius Martyr, Methodisus, St. Evagiois, Diodore of Tarsus, St. John of Jerusalem, etc. There are a lot more.

So they are all deceived by Satan? And you are not?

---

Satan can certainly deceive anyone! He deceived Judas who walked with Jesus daily, and witnessed Jesus' teachings and miracles firsthand. I personally believe if all them believe that ALL people will one day be reconciled to Heaven, then they got it wrong. Bad theology has consequences….unfortunately, this doctrine you are promoting is definitely deceitful…it does diminish Christ's sacrifice on the cross. It basically says, "hey live it up on earth and what you do doesn't matter and your choices don't have eternal consequences, because God's going to let you in to Heaven in the end anyway…regardless if you accepted Christ as Savior or not!" Again…if that is what you believe then that is your choice. I personally do not believe it is Biblical.

---

Wow. That is not what I said at all. And neither was what the saints who agreed with me said.

And for the record, you are claiming that venerated saints who believe in ultimate reconcile are being deceived by Satan?

---

IF they were preaching and teaching ultimate reconciliation, that ALL will one day be allowed in Heaven then yes, put me on record as saying they have been deceived! Ultimate Reconciliation is a false doctrine….

---

No offense but think I will side with the saints.

---

None taken…I'll side with Jesus….who spoke numerous times about an eternal hell!!

Bighunter43 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

And were the saints who believed in ultimate reconciliation deceived by the "lies of Satan"?

---

Well Satan has been in the deceiving business quite a while….which "saints" are you referring to?

---

I will start with St. Gregory of Nyssa who was revered as one of the greatest theologians of his time.


And Bardiaisan, Clement, Origen, Didymis, St. Anthony,, St.Pamphilius Martyr, Methodisus, St. Evagiois, Diodore of Tarsus, St. John of Jerusalem, etc. There are a lot more.

So they are all deceived by Satan? And you are not?

---

Satan can certainly deceive anyone! He deceived Judas who walked with Jesus daily, and witnessed Jesus' teachings and miracles firsthand. I personally believe if all them believe that ALL people will one day be reconciled to Heaven, then they got it wrong. Bad theology has consequences….unfortunately, this doctrine you are promoting is definitely deceitful…it does diminish Christ's sacrifice on the cross. It basically says, "hey live it up on earth and what you do doesn't matter and your choices don't have eternal consequences, because God's going to let you in to Heaven in the end anyway…regardless if you accepted Christ as Savior or not!" Again…if that is what you believe then that is your choice. I personally do not believe it is Biblical.

---

Wow. That is not what I said at all. And neither was what the saints who agreed with me said.

And for the record, you are claiming that venerated saints who believe in ultimate reconcile are being deceived by Satan?

---

IF they were preaching and teaching ultimate reconciliation, that ALL will one day be allowed in Heaven then yes, put me on record as saying they have been deceived! Ultimate Reconciliation is a false doctrine….

---

No offense but think I will side with the saints.

---

None taken…I'll side with Jesus….who spoke numerous times about an eternal hell!!

---

We will agree to disagree. Which has happened throughout history. I find it interesting that you are not interested in the beliefs of the early church as they were the ones closest in time to Jesus and the apostles.

The good news is we are brothers in Christ and do not need to fear death. Praise the Lord!

If anyone is interested, here is a link to a good summation of the views of the early church.

The two main take always are that ECT hell, annihilatioism, and universal reconciliation were all widely held views.

The second is that none of the three groups condemned the other groups. They displayed grace and realized it was not a salvific issue.

Even Augustine, who early in his theological journey seemed to embrace universal reconciliation and later embraced ECT hell, did not condemn universalism.

https://exploringthefaith.com/2021/10/08/hell-in-the-early-church/

dermdoc said:

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Bighunter43 said:

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dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

And were the saints who believed in ultimate reconciliation deceived by the "lies of Satan"?

---

Well Satan has been in the deceiving business quite a while….which "saints" are you referring to?

---

I will start with St. Gregory of Nyssa who was revered as one of the greatest theologians of his time.


And Bardiaisan, Clement, Origen, Didymis, St. Anthony,, St.Pamphilius Martyr, Methodisus, St. Evagiois, Diodore of Tarsus, St. John of Jerusalem, etc. There are a lot more.

So they are all deceived by Satan? And you are not?

---

Satan can certainly deceive anyone! He deceived Judas who walked with Jesus daily, and witnessed Jesus' teachings and miracles firsthand. I personally believe if all them believe that ALL people will one day be reconciled to Heaven, then they got it wrong. Bad theology has consequences….unfortunately, this doctrine you are promoting is definitely deceitful…it does diminish Christ's sacrifice on the cross. It basically says, "hey live it up on earth and what you do doesn't matter and your choices don't have eternal consequences, because God's going to let you in to Heaven in the end anyway…regardless if you accepted Christ as Savior or not!" Again…if that is what you believe then that is your choice. I personally do not believe it is Biblical.

---

Wow. That is not what I said at all. And neither was what the saints who agreed with me said.

And for the record, you are claiming that venerated saints who believe in ultimate reconcile are being deceived by Satan?

---

IF they were preaching and teaching ultimate reconciliation, that ALL will one day be allowed in Heaven then yes, put me on record as saying they have been deceived! Ultimate Reconciliation is a false doctrine….

---

No offense but think I will side with the saints.

---

None taken…I'll side with Jesus….who spoke numerous times about an eternal hell!!

---

We will agree to disagree. Which has happened throughout history. I find it interesting that you are not interested in the beliefs of the early church as they were the ones closest in time to Jesus and the apostles.

The good news is we are brothers in Christ and do not need to fear death. Praise the Lord!

---

Amen Dermdoc…..and it's our job to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ to others! It's not that I am not interested in what "some" of the early church advocated….I just don't concur with their arguments. You have caused me to do quite the amount of research on it, which is a good thing! I even talked to 3 pastors about it, from months ago when we first discussed this topic. Studying God's word is always a good thing! The concept we are discussing will not affect you and I as believers and that's a good thing!!

Bighunter43 said:

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dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

And were the saints who believed in ultimate reconciliation deceived by the "lies of Satan"?

---

Well Satan has been in the deceiving business quite a while….which "saints" are you referring to?

---

I will start with St. Gregory of Nyssa who was revered as one of the greatest theologians of his time.


And Bardiaisan, Clement, Origen, Didymis, St. Anthony,, St.Pamphilius Martyr, Methodisus, St. Evagiois, Diodore of Tarsus, St. John of Jerusalem, etc. There are a lot more.

So they are all deceived by Satan? And you are not?

---

Satan can certainly deceive anyone! He deceived Judas who walked with Jesus daily, and witnessed Jesus' teachings and miracles firsthand. I personally believe if all them believe that ALL people will one day be reconciled to Heaven, then they got it wrong. Bad theology has consequences….unfortunately, this doctrine you are promoting is definitely deceitful…it does diminish Christ's sacrifice on the cross. It basically says, "hey live it up on earth and what you do doesn't matter and your choices don't have eternal consequences, because God's going to let you in to Heaven in the end anyway…regardless if you accepted Christ as Savior or not!" Again…if that is what you believe then that is your choice. I personally do not believe it is Biblical.

---

Wow. That is not what I said at all. And neither was what the saints who agreed with me said.

And for the record, you are claiming that venerated saints who believe in ultimate reconcile are being deceived by Satan?

---

IF they were preaching and teaching ultimate reconciliation, that ALL will one day be allowed in Heaven then yes, put me on record as saying they have been deceived! Ultimate Reconciliation is a false doctrine….

---

No offense but think I will side with the saints.

---

None taken…I'll side with Jesus….who spoke numerous times about an eternal hell!!

---

We will agree to disagree. Which has happened throughout history. I find it interesting that you are not interested in the beliefs of the early church as they were the ones closest in time to Jesus and the apostles.

The good news is we are brothers in Christ and do not need to fear death. Praise the Lord!

---

Amen Dermdoc…..and it's our job to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ to others! It's not that I am not interested in what "some" of the early church advocated….I just don't concur with their arguments. You have caused me to do quite the amount of research on it, which is a good thing! I even talked to 3 pastors about it, from months ago when we first discussed this topic. Studying God's word is always a good thing! The concept we are discussing will not affect you and I as believers and that's a good thing!!

---

Amen my brother in Christ. And I do not believe any of the three views are demonic or a lie of Satan, I think it is merely a difference of opinion by spirit filled, earnest, Christian theologians.

I think you would like the article I linked if you have time to read it.

And I am curious what the pastors said and what denomination they were?

All 3 pastors are Southern Baptist…(two are actually related to me)….all do not believe in the Ultimate Reconciliation doctrine. One called it heresy from its earliest beginnings…..I would expound but I'm afraid that would lead us to more disagreements. All we really need to do is spread the Gospel and teach the Cross!!

Bighunter43 said:

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All 3 pastors are Southern Baptist…(two are actually related to me)….all do not believe in the Ultimate Reconciliation doctrine. One called it heresy from its earliest beginnings…..I would expound but I'm afraid that would lead us to more disagreements. All we really need to do is spread the Gospel and teach the Cross!!

---

Thanks. I would love to debate them.

I was raised Southern Baptist and was in church every time the doors were opened. Never heard mention of any church fathers. Much less saints who supported universal reconciliation.

And fascinating that I was taught the freedom of every Baptist believer to read Scripture and interpret it themselves except for salvific issues. And I do not see how one's concept of hell is a salvific issue.

It is like if there is not ECT hell then there is license to sin. I believe if you are truly born again that is a non factor.

I know in my own faith walk, I have been much more vocal about my faith since I became a believer in Ultimate reconciliation. Talk about it all the time because of the joy I have,

dermdoc said:

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Bighunter43 said:

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All 3 pastors are Southern Baptist…(two are actually related to me)….all do not believe in the Ultimate Reconciliation doctrine. One called it heresy from its earliest beginnings…..I would expound but I'm afraid that would lead us to more disagreements. All we really need to do is spread the Gospel and teach the Cross!!

---

Thanks. I would love to debate them.

I was raised Southern Naptist and was in church every time the doors were opened. Never heard mention of any church fathers. Much less saints who supported universal reconciliation.

And fascinating freedom of every Baptist believer to read Scripture and interpret it themselves except for salvific issues.

It is like if there is not ECT hell then there is license to sin. I believe if you are truly born again that is a non factor.

I know in my own faith walk, I have been much more vocal about my faith since I became a believer in Ultimate reconciliation. Talk about it all the time because of the joy I have,

---

I remember back in June we talked deeply about this topic and you said you would not preach Ultimate Reconciliation and didn't necessarily adhere to it or advocate it…that you just found it interesting…..but you seem to be all in on it. May I ask what changed your mind to accept this doctrine wholeheartedly?
In addition, why would a religion that teaches the Gospel need "church fathers"….much less "saints?" Does that make it less believable? I am under the impression that the Bible is all encompassing and all that is needed.

Bighunter43 said:

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dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

All 3 pastors are Southern Baptist…(two are actually related to me)….all do not believe in the Ultimate Reconciliation doctrine. One called it heresy from its earliest beginnings…..I would expound but I'm afraid that would lead us to more disagreements. All we really need to do is spread the Gospel and teach the Cross!!

---

Thanks. I would love to debate them.

I was raised Southern Naptist and was in church every time the doors were opened. Never heard mention of any church fathers. Much less saints who supported universal reconciliation.

And fascinating freedom of every Baptist believer to read Scripture and interpret it themselves except for salvific issues.

It is like if there is not ECT hell then there is license to sin. I believe if you are truly born again that is a non factor.

I know in my own faith walk, I have been much more vocal about my faith since I became a believer in Ultimate reconciliation. Talk about it all the time because of the joy I have,

---

I remember back in June we talked deeply about this topic and you said you would not preach Ultimate Reconciliation and didn't necessarily adhere to it or advocate it…that you just found it interesting…..but you seem to be all in on it. May I ask what changed your mind to accept this doctrine wholeheartedly?
In addition, why would a religion that teaches the Gospel need "church fathers"….much less "saints?" Does that make it less believable? I am under the impression that the Bible is all encompassing and all that is needed.

---

Because just maybe the church fathers were closer to the actual apostles and Jesus.

Maybe they have a little more insight than a present day theologian or you or me.

And if God is truly sovereign as I believe and Scripture to me clearly states He desires all men to be saved, who or what can thwart the will of God?

Revelation 21:5


Behold, I make all things new.

Who can withstand the will of God?

I actually thought we were past this discussion and agreed to disagree….obviously you feel you can argue the merits of Universalism all day, and I believe that I can argue against it all day, as I believe it is 100% a false doctrine, and Satan is using it in today's world (and in the past) to deceive….and neither of us is going to convince the other. I say we respectfully move on.

Bighunter43 said:

---

I actually thought we were past this discussion and agreed to disagree….obviously you feel you can argue the merits of Universalism all day, and I believe that I can argue against it all day, as I believe it is 100% a false doctrine, and Satan is using it in today's world (and in the past) to deceive….and neither of us is going to convince the other. I say we respectfully move on.

---

Agree. Sorry.

And I believe ECT hell belief is 100% a false doctrine and is demonic. If you can say it, I can too.

Of course, I would never post that. And do not believe that.

Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt. 12:3132)

+++

Doc, just interested in your take on this part of scripture in light of your discussion. What is this unforgivable sin that Jesus identifies as blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?

dermdoc said:

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Bighunter43 said:

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I actually thought we were past this discussion and agreed to disagree….obviously you feel you can argue the merits of Universalism all day, and I believe that I can argue against it all day, as I believe it is 100% a false doctrine, and Satan is using it in today's world (and in the past) to deceive….and neither of us is going to convince the other. I say we respectfully move on.

---

Agree. Sorry.

And I believe ECT hell belief is 100% a false doctrine and is demonic. If you can say it, I can too.

Of course, I would never post that. And do not believe that.

---

That sounds like a not so subtle dig at my comment…i apologize if that came across offensive. It is how I feel however, and I'm not ashamed of that stance. The Bible calls for Truth and Love!

PabloSerna said:

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Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt. 12:3132)

+++

Doc, just interested in your take on this part of scripture in light of your discussion. What is this unforgivable sin that Jesus identifies as blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?

---

That is a very good question and I am not sure I know the answer. It would seem to indicate that via free will a man can continue to reject the Holy Spirit. The person chooses to reject God and God allows it. That is the view of CS Lewis, NT Wright, and other theologians.

Scripture is clear God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved.

The question becomes does God allow men to reject Him. Or does God's desire trump man's free will?

Bighunter43 said:

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dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

I actually thought we were past this discussion and agreed to disagree….obviously you feel you can argue the merits of Universalism all day, and I believe that I can argue against it all day, as I believe it is 100% a false doctrine, and Satan is using it in today's world (and in the past) to deceive….and neither of us is going to convince the other. I say we respectfully move on.

---

Agree. Sorry.

And I believe ECT hell belief is 100% a false doctrine and is demonic. If you can say it, I can too.

Of course, I would never post that. And do not believe that.

---

That sounds like a not so subtle dig at my comment…i apologize if that came across offensive. It is how I feel however, and I'm not ashamed of that stance. The Bible calls for Truth and Love!

---

If I believed as you do, I would quit my job, leave my family, and work 24/7 warning people of eternal torment. No vacations, golf, fishing, hunting, etc. How can clergy and Christians sit in a hellfire and brimstone sermon then go out to eat lunch, play gold, watch football, etc.?

And I used to struggle with this. Was anxious, fearful, and had no joy. The opposite of what Jesus preached. Maybe I am wired differently than you but I was miserable.

But then I examined how Christ ministered. How Paul and Peter preached. They did not yell "turn or burn". Paul, the greatest evangelist who ever lived, never used the word hell. Peter used it once when talking about fallen angels.

Jesus never got in a hurry and never really preached or ministered to Gentiles except in rare cases. You would think if Jesus loved the Romans and Gentiles, he would have witnessed to them. And warn them of eternal torment

Now I have peace and shalom. And share my faith freely.

I'd like to jump back in and address this one. Take the verse in context….Jesus has been teaching and has drawn quite an audience. The Pharisees have shown up to put Him in his place so to speak. Jesus was addressing them….and was saying The Son of Man will forgive you (he actually addressed that on the cross…saying Father forgive them, they know not what they do!). But, he goes on to say that you can't blaspheme the Holy Spirit and that would be unforgivable! In this same episode in Mark 3:29….Jesus says whoever blasphemes the Holy Spirit has committed an eternal sin! So….what is he referring to? He's referring to the free gift of Salvation, upon which when you accept Christ….the Holy Spirit enters your heart. IF your heart is unrepentant and rejects that free gift…then it is unforgivable and there's that word eternal again!! Jesus can forgive anything…except rejecting Him and as such the Holy Spirit.
Dermdoc, I know you feel that the verse you keep using about God desires that all men be saved means that God will fulfill his desire by offering ALL reconciliation in the end! (Universalism) I'll address it….as I talked to a Pastor about it last night: Of course God wants us all to accept His free gift of the Son…but still gives us the choice. This is Love…you cannot force someone to love you…that would be coercion…not Love! Do you think God desired that Adam and Eve disobey Him and eat the fruit? They were deceived by Satan who basically said "did God really say you can't eat it? And thus it happened. Satan himself used the Bible (verses…..quoted it) to tempt Jesus…..he is the master deceiver. This concept of Universalism is not scriptural. Yes…men have used certain verses to push that agenda. But Jesus clearly said that there will be eternal death for those that reject Him….THIS life has eternal consequences. So…in wrapping it up…rejecting Christ….with an unrepentant heart…and thus the Holy Spirit….would be the unforgivable sin…and result in an eternal punishment.

We did a study of revelation at my church and the priest stated that, based on how some of the fathers have interpreted scripture, one can only commit the blasphemy of the spirit at the final judgment and one does so by joining with the evil one in accusing someone before the judgment seat of Christ (satan is the accuser). It's an interesting viewpoint.

Bighunter43 said:

---

I'd like to jump back in and address this one. Take the verse in context….Jesus has been teaching and has drawn quite an audience. The Pharisees have shown up to put Him in his place so to speak. Jesus was addressing them….and was saying The Son of Man will forgive you (he actually addressed that on the cross…saying Father forgive them, they know not what they do!). But, he goes on to say that you can't blaspheme the Holy Spirit and that would be unforgivable! In this same episode in Mark 3:29….Jesus says whoever blasphemes the Holy Spirit has committed an eternal sin! So….what is he referring to? He's referring to the free gift of Salvation, upon which when you accept Christ….the Holy Spirit enters your heart. IF your heart is unrepentant and rejects that free gift…then it is unforgivable and there's that word eternal again!! Jesus can forgive anything…except rejecting Him and as such the Holy Spirit.
Dermdoc, I know you feel that the verse you keep using about God desires that all men be saved means that God will fulfill his desire by offering ALL reconciliation in the end! (Universalism) I'll address it….as I talked to a Pastor about it last night: Of course God wants us all to accept His free gift of the Son…but still gives us the choice. This is Love…you cannot force someone to love you…that would be coercion…not Love! Do you think God desired that Adam and Eve disobey Him and eat the fruit? They were deceived by Satan who basically said "did God really say you can't eat it? And thus it happened. Satan himself used the Bible (verses…..quoted it) to tempt Jesus…..he is the master deceiver. This concept of Universalism is not scriptural. Yes…men have used certain verses to push that agenda. But Jesus clearly said that there will be eternal death for those that reject Him….THIS life has eternal consequences. So…in wrapping it up…rejecting Christ….with an unrepentant heart…and thus the Holy Spirit….would be the unforgivable sin…and result in an eternal punishment.

---

I do not have a problem with your belief. It all comes down is does man's free will trump God's desires?

And my personal problem was thinking that I had to save everybody. That is my personality and how I am wired.

And because of that I could get no peace.

dermdoc said:

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Bighunter43 said:

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dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

I actually thought we were past this discussion and agreed to disagree….obviously you feel you can argue the merits of Universalism all day, and I believe that I can argue against it all day, as I believe it is 100% a false doctrine, and Satan is using it in today's world (and in the past) to deceive….and neither of us is going to convince the other. I say we respectfully move on.

---

Agree. Sorry.

And I believe ECT hell belief is 100% a false doctrine and is demonic. If you can say it, I can too.

Of course, I would never post that. And do not believe that.

---

That sounds like a not so subtle dig at my comment…i apologize if that came across offensive. It is how I feel however, and I'm not ashamed of that stance. The Bible calls for Truth and Love!

---

If I believed as you do, I would quit my job, leave my family, and work 24/7 warning people of eternal torment. No vacations, golf, fishing, hunting, etc. How can clergy and Christians sit in a hellfire and brimstone sermon then go out to eat lunch, play gold, watch football, etc.?

And I used to struggle with this. Was anxious, fearful, and had no joy. The opposite of what Jesus preached. Maybe I am wired differently than you but I was miserable.

But then I examined how Christ ministered. How Paul and Peter preached. They did not yell "turn or burn". Paul, the greatest evangelist who ever lived, never used the word hell. Peter used it once when talking about fallen angels.

Jesus never got in a hurry and never really preached or ministered to Gentiles except in rare cases. You would think if Jesus loved the Romans and Gentiles, he would have witnessed to them. And warn them of eternal torment

Now I have peace and shalom. And share my faith freely.

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I'm sorry that the concept of ETC Hell would cause you so much anxiety. Of course, we are to go share the good news. That's probably how we should all feel…but this thing called life kind of gets in the way. I mean, even the clergy has to pay their bills…even the great evangelist Billy Graham played golf…lol. Who's to say that in their journey's the Apostles didn't stop to fish? They had to eat after all. Jesus certainly ministered to Jews and Gentiles alike…(the woman at the well….Jesus was in Samaria). Paul certainly preached repentance and faith alone in Christ will save you. In Acts 26:19-20 Paul defended his ministry to King Agrippa that he preached repentance to the Gentiles! In Romans 5:8,9….Paul says, "God commendeth his love towards us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. That being saved by his blood, WE WILL BE SAVED FROM WRATH through him!"…..I'm pretty sure we know what "wrath" Paul was referring to.
The Great Commission calls for us to spread the good news of Jesus Christ. I worry everyday that I have good friends who don't know Christ as Savior…and I am concerned why I don't spend more time sharing with them. Again…I do like the discussion…as it has caused me to delve headfirst into the Word…and that's never a bad thing!!

Bighunter43 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Bighunter43 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Bighunter43 said:

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I actually thought we were past this discussion and agreed to disagree….obviously you feel you can argue the merits of Universalism all day, and I believe that I can argue against it all day, as I believe it is 100% a false doctrine, and Satan is using it in today's world (and in the past) to deceive….and neither of us is going to convince the other. I say we respectfully move on.

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Agree. Sorry.

And I believe ECT hell belief is 100% a false doctrine and is demonic. If you can say it, I can too.

Of course, I would never post that. And do not believe that.

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That sounds like a not so subtle dig at my comment…i apologize if that came across offensive. It is how I feel however, and I'm not ashamed of that stance. The Bible calls for Truth and Love!

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If I believed as you do, I would quit my job, leave my family, and work 24/7 warning people of eternal torment. No vacations, golf, fishing, hunting, etc. How can clergy and Christians sit in a hellfire and brimstone sermon then go out to eat lunch, play gold, watch football, etc.?

And I used to struggle with this. Was anxious, fearful, and had no joy. The opposite of what Jesus preached. Maybe I am wired differently than you but I was miserable.

But then I examined how Christ ministered. How Paul and Peter preached. They did not yell "turn or burn". Paul, the greatest evangelist who ever lived, never used the word hell. Peter used it once when talking about fallen angels.

Jesus never got in a hurry and never really preached or ministered to Gentiles except in rare cases. You would think if Jesus loved the Romans and Gentiles, he would have witnessed to them. And warn them of eternal torment

Now I have peace and shalom. And share my faith freely.

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I'm sorry that the concept of ETC Hell would cause you so much anxiety. Of course, we are to go share the good news. That's probably how we should all feel…but this thing called life kind of gets in the way. I mean, even the clergy has to pay their bills…even the great evangelist Billy Graham played golf…lol. Who's to say that in their journey's the Apostles didn't stop to fish? They had to eat after all. Jesus certainly ministered to Jews and Gentiles alike…(the woman at the well….Jesus was in Samaria). Paul certainly preached repentance and faith alone in Christ will save you. In Acts 26:19-20 Paul defended his ministry to King Agrippa that he preached repentance to the Gentiles! In Romans 5:8,9….Paul says, "God commendeth his love towards us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. That being saved by his blood, WE WILL BE SAVED FROM WRATH through him!"…..I'm pretty sure we know what "wrath" Paul was referring to.
The Great Commission calls for us to spread the good news of Jesus Christ. I worry everyday that I have good friends who don't know Christ as Savior…and I am concerned why I don't spend more time sharing with them. Again…I do like the discussion…as it has caused me to delve headfirst into the Word…and that's never a bad thing!!

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I also enjoy the discussion. Is God's wrath eternal? Sodom and Gomorrah were described as burning eternally(same Greek word as used in Revelation)and obviously they are not still burning.

Jesus rarely ministered to Gentiles and told the disciples He came for the Jews.I just think that the concept of ECT hell is so terrifying when you really think about it that it would have been a major focus of His ministry. And Peter, Paul, and the other apostles.

I think He would have talked about it non stop. And not in parables but in "turn or burn" language.

The vast amount of Jesus's teachings were how to live life to glorify God. Love God and your neighbor.Honor your father and mother. Take care of widows and orphans. Display the fruits of the spirit.

And just an add on, Andrea Yates supposedly drowned her five children because she was told that once her kids reached the age of accountability (whatever that means and is definitely not biblical) then they would be subject to possibly ending up in ECT hell.

And if there is an "age of accountability" wouldn't an abortion ensure that child goes to heaven?

There are a lot of problems with the doctrine of ECT hell. And especially as how it defines God's character.

Of course, Jesus taught many things, including how to live a pleasing life to the Father. However, he did spend a great deal of time on the subject of the afterlife, and he spent far more time on eternal punishment and describing it (hell) than He did on Heaven. Let's look: Luke 16:23…"it's a place of eternal torment"…Mark 9:43.."-"a place of unquenchable fire".. Mark 9:48…"where the worm does not die"…Matthew 13:42.."a place where people will gnash their teeth in anguish and regret"…Luke 16:19-31…"a place where there is no return" …Matthew 25:30.."a place of outer darkness"….Matthew 10:28…he compares it to "Gehenna"..Matthew 25: (which I've already referenced) he says "people will be banished to eternal fire". I'd say he spoke on it a lot! Of course he said many times that He is the way!! I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me!! I'd say He spent extensive time on the subject!!
Throwing an obviously mentally deranged woman out there who murdered her kids as fodder as a reason not to believe in ECT Hell is a little extreme don't you think? I could counter with Origen, one of your early proponents of Universalism, who castrated himself in front of a nun to teach women and absolve himself of sexual desires just a little extreme as well, to the point of being mentally unstable. Thus, I don't believe either hold any merit.
As far as "age of accountability"….there's actually two OT verses that "could" explain it, (and I am admittedly saying they might be a stretch)….Isaiah 7:15-16 and Deuteronomy 1:39…where age in children is spoken of where they won't be judged as they do not yet know good from evil. Age of accountability is difficult and not clearly defined in the Bible. Much like, some religions, use infant baptism, which is not specifically mentioned anywhere in the Bible. In reality, it was introduced
In the late 160's, during the midst of a plague as a reason to pacify parents who might lose their children to the disease. Does infant baptism in essence equal the age of accountability? Or did some child just get a very public bath? In the end, I'll leave the character of God up to Him….as he clearly says "my ways are not your ways". But I'll defer to the Savior on eternity when He said "no one comes to the Father but by me!"

Bighunter43 said:

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Of course, Jesus taught many things, including how to live a pleasing life to the Father. However, he did spend a great deal of time on the subject of the afterlife, and he spent far more time on eternal punishment and describing it (hell) than He did on Heaven. Let's look: Luke 16:23…"it's a place of eternal torment"…Mark 9:43.."-"a place of unquenchable fire".. Mark 9:48…"where the worm does not die"…Matthew 13:42.."a place where people will gnash their teeth in anguish and regret"…Luke 16:19-31…"a place where there is no return" …Matthew 25:30.."a place of outer darkness"….Matthew 10:28…he compares it to "Gehenna"..Matthew 25: (which I've already referenced) he says "people will be banished to eternal fire". I'd say he spoke on it a lot! Of course he said many times that He is the way!! I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me!! I'd say He spent extensive time on the subject!!
Throwing an obviously mentally deranged woman out there who murdered her kids as fodder as a reason not to believe in ECT Hell is a little extreme don't you think? I could counter with Origen, one of your early proponents of Universalism, who castrated himself in front of a nun to teach women and absolve himself of sexual desires just a little extreme as well, to the point of being mentally unstable. Thus, I don't believe either hold any merit.
As far as "age of accountability"….there's actually two OT verses that "could" explain it, (and I am admittedly saying they might be a stretch)….Isaiah 7:15-16 and Deuteronomy 1:39…where age in children is spoken of where they won't be judged as they do not yet know good from evil. Age of accountability is difficult and not clearly defined in the Bible. Much like, some religions, use infant baptism, which is not specifically mentioned anywhere in the Bible. In reality, it was introduced
In the late 160's, during the midst of a plague as a reason to pacify parents who might lose their children to the disease. Does infant baptism in essence equal the age of accountability? Or did some child just get a very public bath? In the end, I'll leave the character of God up to Him….as he clearly says "my ways are not your ways". But I'll defer to the Savior on eternity when He said "no one comes to the Father but by me!"

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I do not see the word eternal in any translation of Luke 16:23.

And I agree with you that no one comes to the Father except by Jesus. And He is the way, truth, and life.

I believe in corrective, non eternal correction so all will be made new.

You are correct in that Luke 16:23 it didn't use the word eternal. On the surface, it might allude to one of your talking points that hell is temporary….However, I should have included all the way to verse 26 where it refers to a great chasm between the two (Heaven and Hell) and that it CANNOT be crossed….and in essence making it eternal. I think this parable definitely enhances the argument for ECT Hell in that Jesus was focusing on once you're in torment, you cannot cross back to the other side. (Personally, I love Jesus' use of parables in his teaching!)
I let something go earlier on page 1 that I should have addressed…the Greek word Aionian….if you go with the Greek translation, Christ used it twice in Matthew 26:45…describing BOTH the length of punishment AND life….if it's just temporary for death, how can the same word mean eternal for life? Is life with Christ not eternal….only temporary? Was Jesus lying when he said whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life? You cannot use aionian in two different contexts there to mean the same thing. . I said I wasn't going to get into all of this again…lol….and here I am. Again, neither of us is going to sway the other here. I do enjoy the discourse, but feel the need to move on.

Bighunter43 said:

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You are correct in that Luke 16:23 it didn't use the word eternal. On the surface, it might allude to one of your talking points that hell is temporary….However, I should have included all the way to verse 26 where it refers to a great chasm between the two (Heaven and Hell) and that it CANNOT be crossed….and in essence making it eternal. I think this parable definitely enhances the argument for ECT Hell in that Jesus was focusing on once you're in torment, you cannot cross back to the other side. (Personally, I love Jesus' use of parables in his teaching!)
I let something go earlier on page 1 that I should have addressed…the Greek word Aionian….if you go with the Greek translation, Christ used it twice in Matthew 26:45…describing BOTH the length of punishment AND life….if it's just temporary for death, how can the same word mean eternal for life? Is life with Christ not eternal….only temporary? Was Jesus lying when he said whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life? You cannot use aionian in two different contexts there.
Here is where I (and others) believe Satan is using Universalism in ONE (there are others) way to deceive….earlier you noted when you believed in ECT Hell it caused you anxiety, to be fearful and had no joy, because if it's true, you should be preaching the gospel 24/7, etc……and now you don't feel that way. And there lies the deceit…we should be preaching the gospel as much as we can….if Universalism cause one to be more relaxed about it, and there is no fervor to spread the gospel…that is playing right into Satan's hands!! He wants nothing more than having fewer people hear the gospel!

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So I should quit my job, leave my family, and preach the gospel on a street corner 24/7? And all the non believers walking around me everyday are going to be burnt daily forever? If hell is as if you believe, we should concentrate on that 24/7.

You first.

dermdoc said:

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Bighunter43 said:

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You are correct in that Luke 16:23 it didn't use the word eternal. On the surface, it might allude to one of your talking points that hell is temporary….However, I should have included all the way to verse 26 where it refers to a great chasm between the two (Heaven and Hell) and that it CANNOT be crossed….and in essence making it eternal. I think this parable definitely enhances the argument for ECT Hell in that Jesus was focusing on once you're in torment, you cannot cross back to the other side. (Personally, I love Jesus' use of parables in his teaching!)
I let something go earlier on page 1 that I should have addressed…the Greek word Aionian….if you go with the Greek translation, Christ used it twice in Matthew 26:45…describing BOTH the length of punishment AND life….if it's just temporary for death, how can the same word mean eternal for life? Is life with Christ not eternal….only temporary? Was Jesus lying when he said whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life? You cannot use aionian in two different contexts there.
Here is where I (and others) believe Satan is using Universalism in ONE (there are others) way to deceive….earlier you noted when you believed in ECT Hell it caused you anxiety, to be fearful and had no joy, because if it's true, you should be preaching the gospel 24/7, etc……and now you don't feel that way. And there lies the deceit…we should be preaching the gospel as much as we can….if Universalism cause one to be more relaxed about it, and there is no fervor to spread the gospel…that is playing right into Satan's hands!! He wants nothing more than having fewer people hear the gospel!

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So I should quit my job, leave my family, and preach the gospel on a street corner 24/7? And all the non believers walking around me everyday are going to be burnt daily forever? If so, we should concentrate on that 24/7.

You first.

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That's not what I meant….I was in the process of adjusting my earlier thought, because I re-read and it sounded more like a personal attack and that was not my intent. NO ONE can possibly spread the gospel 24/7….but IF one view of eternal salvation tends to weaken the fervor to spread it more than the other, that might cause a lot less people to be saved! No, as for me personally, I fall WAY short in the area of evangelism my friend!! (And many other areas as well)

Dermdoc…..after much prayer on this, I'm going to take myself out of the line of fire on the Universalism topic. While I did enjoy the discussion, it is apparent that neither of us are gaining ground on the issue. In fact, people might take our discussions as detrimental to the "cause", as it might seem like we are bickering as opposed to just discussing, and that certainly doesn't exemplify the Christian walk. I don't want that……if Imy comments have come across as a personal affront to you in an effort to make my point, that was not my intent and I humbly apologize. You're obviously a very good Christian man of high character….and you are in my prayers. We are on the same team!! In the end, we will both meet our maker one day, and hopefully hear the words, "well done my good and faithful servant!" When that happens, what religion we practiced or what doctrine we adhered to won't matter one bit…all that will matter is that we know Him and have accepted his free gift of salvation! God's blessings sir!

Bighunter43 said:

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Dermdoc…..after much prayer on this, I'm going to take myself out of the line of fire on the Universalism topic. While I did enjoy the discussion, it is apparent that neither of us are gaining ground on the issue. In fact, people might take our discussions as detrimental to the "cause", as it might seem like we are bickering as opposed to just discussing, and that certainly doesn't exemplify the Christian walk. I don't want that……if Imy comments have come across as a personal affront to you in an effort to make my point, that was not my intent and I humbly apologize. You're obviously a very good Christian man of high character….and you are in my prayers. We are on the same team!! In the end, we will both meet our maker one day, and hopefully hear the words, "well done my good and faithful servant!" When that happens, what religion we practiced or what doctrine we adhered to won't matter one bit…all that will matter is that we know Him and have accepted his free gift of salvation! God's blessings

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After prayer, I came to the same conclusion.

And I agree with everything you said.

God bless you.