Thoughts that bother me

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waco_aggie05
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3:50p, 1/17/24
AG
Longtime Baptist beleiver here. Grew up in a small country church which we faithfully attended and I continue to serve in our church today. To say I'm a deep theological person would be a farce, but I've studied and am very familiar with Scripture.

Since the events that happened around 2020 and thereafter, I've run into a bit of a paradox. With all the evil in the world that's been revealed over the past several years, its hard to deny we are approaching the end times as laid out in Revelations and other sections of the Bible.

Where I'm struggling to find peace and understanding is that with all this evil stacked against the us (not just Christians but the vast majority of humans today), how is it that not finding the right path leads someone to eternal damnation in hell?

One longstanding example would be a child sold into sex trafficking at a young age. Abused and mistreated their entire life and dies without hearing the gospel. Knowing God's character I have to believe He has grace and mercy for those in these circumstances.

The more conspiratorial, nuanced thought that I've been wrestling with is bugging me even more is the chemical/media manipulation aspect. The red dye, flouride, nutrient-lacking, processed diet. The vaccines causing autism, the list could go on, but at this point is it just to call it free will still when there is so much manipulation? It is one thing when we are given the choice between good and evil, but a someone who is mentally manipulated by the things they eat or have been told are safe but are not just really bothers me.

For instance, research has come out showing ingestion of flouride shows to reduce IQ. We know red dye affects behavior in children but is still on the market. You don't even have to scratch the surface of conspiracies to see there is strong manipulation. But with all that potentially influencing a person without their knowledge, they could potentially spend eternity in hell.

I've been very blessed, so I'm not making excuses, but with all the plans you see for us coming from the WEF, big farm, big pharma, where we have poor quality foods, are prescribed countless drugs, ingest countless more in our diet, help me make it make sense.
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BluHorseShu
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In reply to waco_aggie05 • 4:05p, 1/17/24
AG
waco_aggie05 said:
Longtime Baptist beleiver here. Grew up in a small country church which we faithfully attended and I continue to serve in our church today. To say I'm a deep theological person would be a farce, but I've studied and am very familiar with Scripture.

Since the events that happened around 2020 and thereafter, I've run into a bit of a paradox. With all the evil in the world that's been revealed over the past several years, its hard to deny we are approaching the end times as laid out in Revelations and other sections of the Bible.

Where I'm struggling to find peace and understanding is that with all this evil stacked against the us (not just Christians but the vast majority of humans today), how is it that not finding the right path leads someone to eternal damnation in hell?

One longstanding example would be a child sold into sex trafficking at a young age. Abused and mistreated their entire life and dies without hearing the gospel. Knowing God's character I have to believe He has grace and mercy for those in these circumstances.

The more conspiratorial, nuanced thought that I've been wrestling with is bugging me even more is the chemical/media manipulation aspect. The red dye, flouride, nutrient-lacking, processed diet. The vaccines causing autism, the list could go on, but at this point is it just to call it free will still when there is so much manipulation? It is one thing when we are given the choice between good and evil, but a someone who is mentally manipulated by the things they eat or have been told are safe but are not just really bothers me.

For instance, research has come out showing ingestion of flouride shows to reduce IQ. We know red dye affects behavior in children but is still on the market. You don't even have to scratch the surface of conspiracies to see there is strong manipulation. But with all that potentially influencing a person without their knowledge, they could potentially spend eternity in hell.

I've been very blessed, so I'm not making excuses, but with all the plans you see for us coming from the WEF, big farm, big pharma, where we have poor quality foods, are prescribed countless drugs, ingest countless more in our diet, help me make it make sense.
The list of things that are harmful to us has existed for a long time. Historically humans have always included things in their lives that turned out to be harmful.

My suggestion is to continue to pray, focus on Christs teachings (especially about charity) and quit focusing on most things the internet has to offer. The devil wants to you obsess about conspiracies and the danger around you. Focus on Christ and the other responsibilities you have in your life.

I mean you can choose to avoid processed foods and man made chemicals, but overall we are living far longer than humans ever have.

In other words...step away from the internet for a while and focus on loving people through charity.


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PabloSerna
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4:15p, 1/17/24
AG
INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE

Lack of knowledge, either of fact or law, for which a person is not morally responsible. This may be due to the difficulty of the object of the knowledge, or scarcity of evidence, or insufficient time or talent in the person, or any other factor for which he is not culpable. (Etym. Latin in, not + vincibilis, easily overcome: invincibilis.)

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powerbelly
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In reply to waco_aggie05 • 4:20p, 1/17/24
AG
Quote:
With all the evil in the world that's been revealed over the past several years, its hard to deny we are approaching the end times as laid out in Revelations and other sections of the Bible.


I will challenge this. You are suffering from recency bias.
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Martin Q. Blank
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4:20p, 1/17/24
I find it hard to believe that a proper diet will make an atheist a Christian.
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94chem
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4:43p, 1/17/24
OP, you are beginning to wake up. There is plenty of reason for you to hold dogmatically to the wisdom and strength of God's grace, without ignoring or rejecting the countless facets of this present darkness. Suffering is real, and it occurs on the watch of a sovereign God. If the opening of your eyes and the thawing of your heart move you to obedient actions, that is God's love working in and through you.
94chem,
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
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craigernaught
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In reply to waco_aggie05 • 5:45p, 1/17/24
AG
Quote:
The red dye, flouride, nutrient-lacking, processed diet. The vaccines causing autism, the list could go on

What
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94chem
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In reply to craigernaught • 7:20p, 1/17/24
craigernaught said:
Quote:
The red dye, flouride, nutrient-lacking, processed diet. The vaccines causing autism, the list could go on

What


OK. I was trying to focus on the gist, and not dive into the Dr. Strangelove details.
94chem,
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
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Stive
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In reply to powerbelly • 10:33p, 1/17/24
AG
powerbelly said:
Quote:
With all the evil in the world that's been revealed over the past several years, its hard to deny we are approaching the end times as laid out in Revelations and other sections of the Bible.


I will challenge this. You are suffering from recency bias.

No joke.

With all due respect to the OP, Christians have been thinking that we're living in the end times every year since Christ died.

There's a whole lot of stupid that college can't fix. -My Grandfather
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CrackerJackAg
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In reply to powerbelly • 11:07p, 1/17/24
AG
powerbelly said:
Quote:
With all the evil in the world that's been revealed over the past several years, its hard to deny we are approaching the end times as laid out in Revelations and other sections of the Bible.


I will challenge this. You are suffering from recency bias.


This times 1000. You are in a golden age son. You are a soft candy reared dude for thinking any differently.
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BonfireNerd04
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In reply to Stive • 12:56a, 1/18/24
Stive said:
powerbelly said:
Quote:
With all the evil in the world that's been revealed over the past several years, its hard to deny we are approaching the end times as laid out in Revelations and other sections of the Bible.


I will challenge this. You are suffering from recency bias.

No joke.

With all due respect to the OP, Christians have been thinking that we're living in the end times every year since Christ died.
Yeah, but there was a big resurgence after nuclear weapons were invented, which gave credibility to the idea that the end of the world could actually happen and it would be mankind's fault.
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dermdoc
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In reply to waco_aggie05 • 9:00a, 1/18/24
AG
waco_aggie05 said:
Longtime Baptist beleiver here. Grew up in a small country church which we faithfully attended and I continue to serve in our church today. To say I'm a deep theological person would be a farce, but I've studied and am very familiar with Scripture.

Since the events that happened around 2020 and thereafter, I've run into a bit of a paradox. With all the evil in the world that's been revealed over the past several years, its hard to deny we are approaching the end times as laid out in Revelations and other sections of the Bible.

Where I'm struggling to find peace and understanding is that with all this evil stacked against the us (not just Christians but the vast majority of humans today), how is it that not finding the right path leads someone to eternal damnation in hell?

One longstanding example would be a child sold into sex trafficking at a young age. Abused and mistreated their entire life and dies without hearing the gospel. Knowing God's character I have to believe He has grace and mercy for those in these circumstances.

The more conspiratorial, nuanced thought that I've been wrestling with is bugging me even more is the chemical/media manipulation aspect. The red dye, flouride, nutrient-lacking, processed diet. The vaccines causing autism, the list could go on, but at this point is it just to call it free will still when there is so much manipulation? It is one thing when we are given the choice between good and evil, but a someone who is mentally manipulated by the things they eat or have been told are safe but are not just really bothers me.

For instance, research has come out showing ingestion of flouride shows to reduce IQ. We know red dye affects behavior in children but is still on the market. You don't even have to scratch the surface of conspiracies to see there is strong manipulation. But with all that potentially influencing a person without their knowledge, they could potentially spend eternity in hell.

I've been very blessed, so I'm not making excuses, but with all the plans you see for us coming from the WEF, big farm, big pharma, where we have poor quality foods, are prescribed countless drugs, ingest countless more in our diet, help me make it make sense.
Couple of things.

First of all, this is nothing compared to what the Greatest Generation went through. Or the Revolutionary and Civil War. The Great Depression. The formation of the state of Israel. The Cold War and nuclear weapons.
Every generation thinks Jesus is coming while they are alive. And Scripture is clear nobody knows except the Father. Not even Jesus.

That is why I do not bother with eschatology and End times stuff. Just trust the Lord like we are instructed to do.

Secondly, I was raised similar to you. And about your age I started questioning ECT hell. It makes no sense with the character of God as revealed in Jesus Christ. What kind of God would eternally torture an unbaptized new born. Or a Hindu child who had never heard the Gospel. What would you think of a father who burnt his kids for not believing something they had never been exposed to? And not just burning them up today, but 24/7 for eternity.

A lot of the early church and numerous church fathers and even saints believed in ultimate reconciliation as I do. Where there is punishment, but it is rehabilitating, not vindictive and eternal. The theology of ECT hell became established almost completely by Augustine.

Scripture repeatedly says God is just and desires all men to be saved. That to me, does not fit with ECT hell.

And why would God's character change when we die? He loves and pursues is while we are alive, then tortures us for eternity.

God's character displayed in the parables of the Prodigal son, the one lost sheep, the one lost coin, etc. does not fit with ECT hell in my opinion.

Will sinners be punished? Sure. But not for eternity. And for correction and ultimate reconciliation.

Where do Paul or Peter preach "Sinners in the hands of an angry God"? When do they say turn or burn? When do they even mention hell? And wrath is not hell. Wrath, as pertains to God, is righteous intolerance of sin. Not vindictive punishment with little justification in many case. Like the Hindu child who had never heard the Gospel

I am sure you know the fruits of the spirit. Wrath and punishment are not listed. And the Spirit is in the Trinity.

Behold, I will make all things new. Every knee shall bow. And so on. This made Scripture alive for me.

Oh, and if ECT hell is real, why are Christians not spending 24/7 telling non believers about the horrors of hell. There is a serious disconnect. By born again, saved, spirit filled Christians.

And I believe the reason these issues are bothering you is the work of the Holy Spirit.

No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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dermdoc
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9:22a, 1/18/24
AG
And have not even discussed where is hell before the New Testament? Where does it say the people who died in the flood, the Passover, or Israel's conquest of Canaan, etc. were sent to a place of eternal torment created by God?

Why is there no Jewish concept of ECT hell?

And Jesus certainly showed no urgency of saving everyone from ECT hell. And only interacted with Jews except for rare occasions.

I believe God is sovereign. And Scripture is clear He desires to save all men. Who am I to say God does not get his will?
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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DirtDiver
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10:59a, 1/18/24
How does God judge?

Let's start with the facts that we do know from the text.
1. God knows all sin, all thoughts, and all intentions of the heart or motives that were ever committed.
2. God's forgiveness is available to all freely.
3. The penalty for sin is severe.
4. The price paid for the penalty of sin is unpayable by humanity.
5. God's desire is that none will perish eternally.
6. People will perish eternally.
7. Jesus, being God, in human flesh, has revealed to us who God is and what He is like.
8. We do not have all of the information as to how God will judge each person because we do not have the knowledge that He does.
9. We do have enough information to know that Jesus was not going around ripping people off or making mistakes in his judgement, decisions, etc.

When you do not have all of the answers, do you have enough information that Jesus is who He said He was and that he's not going to miss anything or rip people off?

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Rocag
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11:39a, 1/18/24
AG
I wonder if there's ever been a time in the last 2000 years where Christians weren't screaming that the end of the world was going to happen sometime in the immediate future.
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BluHorseShu
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In reply to Rocag • 12:29p, 1/18/24
AG
Rocag said:
I wonder if there's ever been a time in the last 2000 years where Christians weren't screaming that the end of the world was going to happen sometime in the immediate future.
Well...there was a short lived period when the we had another Heisman trophy winner...and remember I said 'short lived'.
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dermdoc
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In reply to DirtDiver • 12:53p, 1/18/24
AG
DirtDiver said:
How does God judge?

Let's start with the facts that we do know from the text.
1. God knows all sin, all thoughts, and all intentions of the heart or motives that were ever committed.
2. God's forgiveness is available to all freely.
3. The penalty for sin is severe.
4. The price paid for the penalty of sin is unpayable by humanity.
5. God's desire is that none will perish eternally.
6. People will perish eternally.
7. Jesus, being God, in human flesh, has revealed to us who God is and what He is like.
8. We do not have all of the information as to how God will judge each person because we do not have the knowledge that He does.
9. We do have enough information to know that Jesus was not going around ripping people off or making mistakes in his judgement, decisions, etc.

When you do not have all of the answers, do you have enough information that Jesus is who He said He was and that he's not going to miss anything or rip people off?

I have no problem with that. I just think it is hard for me believe that a totally sovereign God desires are thwarted by man's free will.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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TheGreatEscape
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3:07p, 1/18/24
We have the sufficiency of Scripture.
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Rudyjax
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In reply to waco_aggie05 • 12:22a, 1/19/24
AG
Man.

Humanity has it better than any other time in history.

I would hate to have such a half glass full outlook on life and humanity that you do .

It makes me sad you can't see how things really are.
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Rudyjax
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In reply to Rocag • 12:23a, 1/19/24
AG
Rocag said:
I wonder if there's ever been a time in the last 2000 years where Christians weren't screaming that the end of the world was going to happen sometime in the immediate future.
The equivalent of Old Army is going to hell. It's been going to hell since 1876.
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dermdoc
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In reply to Rudyjax • 7:23a, 1/19/24
AG
Rudyjax said:
Man.

Humanity has it better than any other time in history.

I would hate to have such a half glass full outlook on life and humanity that you do .

It makes me sad you can't see how things really are.
Agree.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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BluHorseShu
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In reply to TheGreatEscape • 9:23a, 1/19/24
AG
TheGreatEscape said:
We have the sufficiency of Scripture.
In a sense I agree...but we also must concern ourselves with the perspicuity as well. 2 Timothy 3:1617 tells us all we need to know can be found in scripture....but it doesn't say that it is all plainly stated in a way that cannot be misinterpreted. I still go back to me Home Depot example. It has everything you need to build a house and thus is sufficient. But not every person with reasonable intelligence can build a house if given all of the sufficient tools. This is why Christ left us his Church. Christ had to teach Peter the meaning of a parable. The Ethiopian eunuch told Philip that he needed a guide to understand what he was reading (Acts 8:30-31).
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Bighunter43
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1:01p, 1/19/24
AG
Dermdoc….Jesus said in Matthew 25:41…."then he said to those on the left…depart from me into the ETERNAL fire prepared for the devil and his angels." And in Matthew 25:46…."then they will go away to the ETERNAL punishment, and the righteous to ETERNAL life!"
Jesus calls it ETERNAL….and compares it to eternal life….hell is eternal! (And the OT says in Daniel 12:12 some will have everlasting life while some will suffer shame and everlasting contempt)….Why would God let Jesus go to the cross and suffer an unbelievable death (which he conquered) to die for our sins and offer us the free gift of eternal life with him if we accept him….only to let people who rejected Him suffer for a while and then one day go …"you know, you've done enough time, come on up here and be a part of heaven". I'm sorry…this is a lie from Satan. Why would you need Jesus if you will eventually get eternal life without him by default??? This "love wins" theory cheapens the cross, and is unbiblical!!
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dermdoc
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In reply to Bighunter43 • 1:56p, 1/19/24
AG
Bighunter43 said:
Dermdoc….Jesus said in Matthew 25:41…."then he said to those on the left…depart from me into the ETERNAL fire prepared for the devil and his angels." And in Matthew 25:46…."then they will go away to the ETERNAL punishment, and the righteous to ETERNAL life!"
Jesus calls it ETERNAL….and compares it to eternal life….hell is eternal! (And the OT says in Daniel 12:12 some will have everlasting life while some will suffer shame and everlasting contempt)….Why would God let Jesus go to the cross and suffer an unbelievable death (which he conquered) to die for our sins and offer us the free gift of eternal life with him if we accept him….only to let people who rejected Him suffer for a while and then one day go …"you know, you've done enough time, come on up here and be a part of heaven". I'm sorry…this is a lie from Satan. Why would you need Jesus if you will eventually get eternal life with him by default??? This "love wins" theory cheapens the cross, and is unbiblical!!
The original Greek word translated as eternal is aionios which usually is only translated at eternal if describing God. Which usually is translated as a period of time or age. Not eternal. Lots of theologians dispute it means eternal in this context. Including saints.

So do you believe people who never hear the Gospel are destined for eternal torment? And actually it makes the cross even more powerful if Christ saves all after rehabilitative punishment.

Do you agree that Scripture plainly states that God desires to save all men?

So human free will trumps God? And what about people who have never heard of Jesus? Do they get a chance? And if not, is that just, which we know God is.

It is fascinating when you actually research this in depth.

And not trying to be argumentative, just stating my beliefs after quite a bit of detailed research. Google what the early church thought about ECT hell.

Probably the most scholarly work on this subject is by Ilaria Ramilli who is very well respected and much deeper and detailed than Rob Bell.

I know I will not change your mind but I do not believe anyone's salvation is based on whether they believe in ECT hell, annihilationism, or ultimate reconciliation.

If so, there are saints who will be eternally tormemted.

No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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jaborch99
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In reply to Bighunter43 • 2:41p, 1/19/24
S
Bighunter43 said:
Why would God let Jesus go to the cross and suffer an unbelievable death (which he conquered) to die for our sins and offer us the free gift of eternal life with him if we accept him….only to let people who rejected Him suffer for a while and then one day go …"you know, you've done enough time, come on up here and be a part of heaven". I'm sorry…this is a lie from Satan. Why would you need Jesus if you will eventually get eternal life without him by default??? This "love wins" theory cheapens the cross, and is unbiblical!!
I'm not dermdoc, and I'm not fully sold on his position (I personally lean more towards conditional immortality, but I hope derm is right!). But is the cross merely fire insurance? Is there no other reason why the cross was necessary and/or important? Does our need for Jesus have nothing to do with this life?
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Bighunter43
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In reply to jaborch99 • 3:11p, 1/19/24
AG
jaborch99 said:
Bighunter43 said:
Why would God let Jesus go to the cross and suffer an unbelievable death (which he conquered) to die for our sins and offer us the free gift of eternal life with him if we accept him….only to let people who rejected Him suffer for a while and then one day go …"you know, you've done enough time, come on up here and be a part of heaven". I'm sorry…this is a lie from Satan. Why would you need Jesus if you will eventually get eternal life without him by default??? This "love wins" theory cheapens the cross, and is unbiblical!!
I'm not dermdoc, and I'm not fully sold on his position (I personally lean more towards conditional immortality, but I hope derm is right!). But is the cross merely fire insurance? Is there no other reason why the cross was necessary and/or important? Does our need for Jesus have nothing to do with this life?


The cross certainly should not be just fire insurance….and if it's just fire insurance to someone, then they probably need to question their salvation experience. Once you are saved, you have the Holy Spirit to guide you, and convict you at the same time. Being a Christian is making Jesus both Savior AND Lord of your life! After being saved, I still absolutely need Jesus every day, and long for that relationship with Him!
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jaborch99
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In reply to Bighunter43 • 3:24p, 1/19/24
S
Bighunter43 said:
jaborch99 said:
Bighunter43 said:
Why would God let Jesus go to the cross and suffer an unbelievable death (which he conquered) to die for our sins and offer us the free gift of eternal life with him if we accept him….only to let people who rejected Him suffer for a while and then one day go …"you know, you've done enough time, come on up here and be a part of heaven". I'm sorry…this is a lie from Satan. Why would you need Jesus if you will eventually get eternal life without him by default??? This "love wins" theory cheapens the cross, and is unbiblical!!
I'm not dermdoc, and I'm not fully sold on his position (I personally lean more towards conditional immortality, but I hope derm is right!). But is the cross merely fire insurance? Is there no other reason why the cross was necessary and/or important? Does our need for Jesus have nothing to do with this life?


The cross certainly should not be just fire insurance….and if it's just fire insurance to someone, then they probably need to question their salvation experience. Once you are saved, you have the Holy Spirit to guide you, and convict you at the same time. Being a Christian is making Jesus both Savior AND Lord of your life! After being saved, I still absolutely need Jesus every day, and long for that relationship with Him!
In that case, I think you answered your own questions from above. Why would God let Jesus go to the cross if he will ultimately reconcile everyone? Because the cross is about more than what happens to us after death.

"Why would you need Jesus if you will eventually get eternal life without him by default?" I don't believe dermdoc or those who hold his position believe that anyone is saved without Jesus. Rather (and derm can correct me if I'm wrong) they believe that all are ultimately reconciled to God THROUGH Jesus. I think the heart of your question is "why would you need to accept Jesus if those who reject him will ultimately be reconciled to God?" Again, because accepting Jesus is about more than just the afterlife (among other reasons).
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dermdoc
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In reply to jaborch99 • 3:32p, 1/19/24
AG
jaborch99 said:
Bighunter43 said:
jaborch99 said:
Bighunter43 said:
Why would God let Jesus go to the cross and suffer an unbelievable death (which he conquered) to die for our sins and offer us the free gift of eternal life with him if we accept him….only to let people who rejected Him suffer for a while and then one day go …"you know, you've done enough time, come on up here and be a part of heaven". I'm sorry…this is a lie from Satan. Why would you need Jesus if you will eventually get eternal life without him by default??? This "love wins" theory cheapens the cross, and is unbiblical!!
I'm not dermdoc, and I'm not fully sold on his position (I personally lean more towards conditional immortality, but I hope derm is right!). But is the cross merely fire insurance? Is there no other reason why the cross was necessary and/or important? Does our need for Jesus have nothing to do with this life?


The cross certainly should not be just fire insurance….and if it's just fire insurance to someone, then they probably need to question their salvation experience. Once you are saved, you have the Holy Spirit to guide you, and convict you at the same time. Being a Christian is making Jesus both Savior AND Lord of your life! After being saved, I still absolutely need Jesus every day, and long for that relationship with Him!
In that case, I think you answered your own questions from above. Why would God let Jesus go to the cross if he will ultimately reconcile everyone? Because the cross is about more than what happens to us after death.

"Why would you need Jesus if you will eventually get eternal life without him by default?" I don't believe dermdoc or those who hold his position believe that anyone is saved without Jesus. Rather (and derm can correct me if I'm wrong) they believe that all are ultimately reconciled to God THROUGH Jesus. I think the heart of your question is "why would you need to accept Jesus if those who reject him will ultimately be reconciled to God?" Again, because accepting Jesus is about more than just the afterlife (among other reasons).
You are correct. Jesus is the only way. It is interesting that the famous sheep and goats parable that the Greek work translated as punishment is kolasis or kolasin which is translated as a pruning process or corrective punishment. Like your parents do.

The Greek word for retributive, vindictive punishment is timoria.

The other thing that is interesting is look at what Christ says is the difference between the sheep and goats. It is all actions like visiting prisoners, feeding the hungry, etc. Food for thought.
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Bighunter43
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In reply to dermdoc • 3:44p, 1/19/24
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dermdoc said:
Bighunter43 said:
Dermdoc….Jesus said in Matthew 25:41…."then he said to those on the left…depart from me into the ETERNAL fire prepared for the devil and his angels." And in Matthew 25:46…."then they will go away to the ETERNAL punishment, and the righteous to ETERNAL life!"
Jesus calls it ETERNAL….and compares it to eternal life….hell is eternal! (And the OT says in Daniel 12:12 some will have everlasting life while some will suffer shame and everlasting contempt)….Why would God let Jesus go to the cross and suffer an unbelievable death (which he conquered) to die for our sins and offer us the free gift of eternal life with him if we accept him….only to let people who rejected Him suffer for a while and then one day go …"you know, you've done enough time, come on up here and be a part of heaven". I'm sorry…this is a lie from Satan. Why would you need Jesus if you will eventually get eternal life with him by default??? This "love wins" theory cheapens the cross, and is unbiblical!!
The original Greek word translated as eternal is aionios which usually is only translated at eternal if describing God. Which usually is translated as a period of time or age. Not eternal. Lots of theologians dispute it means eternal in this context. Including saints.

So do you believe people who never hear the Gospel are destined for eternal torment? And actually it makes the cross even more powerful if Christ saves all after rehabilitative punishment.

Do you agree that Scripture plainly states that God desires to save all men?

So human free will trumps God? And what about people who have never heard of Jesus? Do they get a chance? And if not, is that just, which we know God is.

It is fascinating when you actually research this in depth.

And not trying to be argumentative, just stating my beliefs after quite a bit of detailed research. Google what the early church thought about ECT hell.

Probably the most scholarly work on this subject is by Ilaria Ramilli who is very well respected and much deeper and detailed than Rob Bell.

I know I will not change your mind but I do not believe anyone's salvation is based on whether they believe in ECT hell, annihilationism, or ultimate reconciliation.

If so, there are saints who will be eternally tormemted.



I really don't know the answer as far as accountability for someone who's never heard of Christ. (Someone all alone in the jungle, or a child that dies at a young age with any comprehension)…don't know that anyone does….we'd like to think that God would not hold them accountable, but that is up to God….he says "my ways are not your ways!" I do know that Jesus said NO ONE comes to the Father except through the Son!! Does someone reject something if they've never heard of it?? That's a hard topic.
However…this belief that ALL non-believers will somehow be reconciled after a period of torment, and that Hell is not eternal…is totally a lie from the evil one! Do not be deceived…Hell is real, and it's eternal!! Of course God desires that all men be saved, but we still must make that choice….it's free will….and choosing to neglect the cross and Jesus will result in an eternal punishment. God also desires that all men would choose to live a life that would be pleasing to Him….most choose not to. (Free will) To be honest, I'm not interested in googling what the early church thought of ECT Hell…that is someone's interpretation. I'm not interested in the "love wins" book or theory…that is someone's interpretation. I'd prefer to use the very words of Jesus that I referenced earlier….I'm not trying to make you believe what I believe….I know you've said in previous posts that you are not 100% sold on the "love wins" doctrine…I will leave that up to you my friend….no disrespect from me. I will never consider it though!
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dermdoc
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3:51p, 1/19/24
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And kolasis was the word of Jesus.


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3:58p, 1/19/24
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4:01p, 1/19/24
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And were the saints who believed in ultimate reconciliation deceived by the "lies of Satan"?
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In reply to dermdoc • 7:29p, 1/19/24
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dermdoc said:
And were the saints who believed in ultimate reconciliation deceived by the "lies of Satan"?


Well Satan has been in the deceiving business quite a while….which "saints" are you referring to?
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In reply to Bighunter43 • 8:05p, 1/19/24
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Bighunter43 said:
dermdoc said:
And were the saints who believed in ultimate reconciliation deceived by the "lies of Satan"?


Well Satan has been in the deceiving business quite a while….which "saints" are you referring to?
I will start with St. Gregory of Nyssa who was revered as one of the greatest theologians of his time.


And Bardiaisan, Clement, Origen, Didymis, St. Anthony,, St.Pamphilius Martyr, Methodisus, St. Evagiois, Diodore of Tarsus, St. John of Jerusalem, etc. There are a lot more.

So they are all deceived by Satan? And you are not?

And I am not near as smart as any of these theologians.
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In reply to dermdoc • 8:37p, 1/19/24
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dermdoc said:
Bighunter43 said:
dermdoc said:
And were the saints who believed in ultimate reconciliation deceived by the "lies of Satan"?


Well Satan has been in the deceiving business quite a while….which "saints" are you referring to?
I will start with St. Gregory of Nyssa who was revered as one of the greatest theologians of his time.


And Bardiaisan, Clement, Origen, Didymis, St. Anthony,, St.Pamphilius Martyr, Methodisus, St. Evagiois, Diodore of Tarsus, St. John of Jerusalem, etc. There are a lot more.

So they are all deceived by Satan? And you are not?


Satan can certainly deceive anyone! He deceived Judas who walked with Jesus daily, and witnessed Jesus' teachings and miracles firsthand. I personally believe if all them believe that ALL people will one day be reconciled to Heaven, then they got it wrong. Bad theology has consequences….unfortunately, this doctrine you are promoting is definitely deceitful…it does diminish Christ's sacrifice on the cross. It basically says, "hey live it up on earth and what you do doesn't matter and your choices don't have eternal consequences, because God's going to let you in to Heaven in the end anyway…regardless if you accepted Christ as Savior or not!" Again…if that is what you believe then that is your choice. I personally do not believe it is Biblical.
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