"He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection in mind; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be absolved from their sin." (2 Maccabees 12:43-46)


"Every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." (Matthew 12:31-32)


"Then in anger his master handed him over to the torturers until he should pay back the whole debt. So will my heavenly Father do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart." (Matthew 18:34-35)


"Then flew one of the seraphim to me, having in his hand a burning coal which he had taken with tongs from the altar. And he touched my mouth, and said: "Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin forgiven." (Isaiah 6:6-7)


"Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny." (Matthew 5: 25-26)


"The work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire." (1 Corinthians 3:13-15)


"Everyone will be salted with fire."
(Mark 9:49)


"So that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold that is perishable even though tested by fire, may prove to be for praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 1:7)

Maccabees...there's your problem. The rest have absolutely NOTHING to do with the 'false concept' of purgatory. Instead, check out "absent from the body, present with the Lord", and "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Further check out "when" and "why" Maccabees was included in the catholic cannon.

Maccabees was included in Pope Damasus's declaration of the canon at the council of Rome, 382 AD...It is referenced in the Gospels...

Thaddeus73 said:

---

Maccabees was included in Pope Damasus's declaration of the canon at the council of Rome, 382 AD...It is referenced in the Gospels...

---

Which New Testament Gospel...chapter and verse? And, you didn't address "WHY" Rome felt it necessary to include the "Apocrypha" on such a "late date" in the first place. Prayer to the dead, ring a bell? I'm certain Jesus, Mary and the Apostles NEVER prayed to the deceased...but to God, and God alone!

ETA - I find it a bit more than interesting, NONE of the New Testament writers mention ANY of the apocrypha books or quote from ANY of its writers. Wonder why??

Not Rome's only or last error with respect to true Christianity.

Thaddeus73 said:

---

Maccabees was included in Pope Damasus's declaration of the canon at the council of Rome, 382 AD...It is referenced in the Gospels...

---

Even a quick google search would show this claim is highly suspect.

Best I can think of as Maccabees being in the gospels is that Jesus celebrated the festival of lights.

This Purgatory stuff though, not only is none of the scripture convincing, we've seen the Catholic church abuse the teaching for fundraising, and it seems quite counter gospel. If Jesus paid it all, why am I paying it again?

Had a Catholic friend share with me a podcast about it where it compared it to a kid breaking a window. The owner is mad at you yet in time he forgives you, but you still have to pay for it. The gospel though is that the owner's son (hint, it's Jesus) paid for the window that I broke.

Just don't get how if Jesus' death on the cross was for my sins, why do I still have to pay for them? Peter wrote "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed." and "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit." Nothing in that seems to say that I still need to pay off my sins after death.

Christ alone!

Son of *****.

I was supposedly born and automatically a sinner. Then I lived a life of sin. And then when I kick off….you guessed it…I'm a sinner after I die too? And now I gotta pay for it?

The preacher man spends a lot of time explaining how JC died for my sins. Did he or not? I think Someone is yanking my chain.

whatthehey78 said:

---

Thaddeus73 said:

---

Maccabees was included in Pope Damasus's declaration of the canon at the council of Rome, 382 AD...It is referenced in the Gospels...

---

Which New Testament Gospel...chapter and verse? And, you didn't address "WHY" Rome felt it necessary to include the "Apocrypha" on such a "late date" in the first place. Prayer to the dead, ring a bell? I'm certain Jesus, Mary and the Apostles NEVER prayed to the deceased...but to God, and God alone!

ETA - I find it a bit more than interesting, NONE of the New Testament writers mention ANY of the apocrypha books or quote from ANY of its writers. Wonder why??

Not Rome's only or last error with respect to true Christianity.

---

Enoch is quoted or referenced multiple times.

BrazosDog02 said:

---

Son of *****.

I was supposedly born and automatically a sinner. Then I lived a life of sin. And then when I kick off….you guessed it…I'm a sinner after I die too? And now I gotta pay for it?

The preacher man spends a lot of time explaining how JC died for my sins. Did he or not? I think Someone is yanking my chain.

---

No. He did die for your sins. And all men's sins. The Gospel means good news. For all men. Luke 2:10.

All you have to do believe according to Scripture. All who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. It is very clear and simple.

Man adds and distorts things. Very similar to a group of folks Jesus criticized more than any other people while He was here on this earth.

Merry Christmas! Praise the Lord!

Thaddeus73 said:

---

Quote:

---

Just don't get how if Jesus' death on the cross was for my sins, why do I still have to pay for them?

---

Because the bible says that nothing undefiled shall enter heaven.

You still have to atone for your sins, even after you've been forgiven for them. You can do it while you are still alive, or you can do it in the fires of purgatory. The choice is all yours...

---

I hope the choice is not all mine. If so, I'll never make it.

I also hope that I don't have to atone for my sins, because I am not a perfect sacrifice, Christ is. We celebrate the perfect lambs birth today, who was born to atone for our sins.

As John write "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the FatherJesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

If it is up to me to be good enough for heaven, I'm damned. Praise the Lord for Jesus who died for my sins so that I can be with him, even today.

whatthehey78 said:

---

Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Christus and Sola Gratia. No such thing as Sola maccabees or Sola apocrypha!

---

When there's more than one sola there is no sola

Thaddeus73 said:

---

Jesus forgave both Peter and Paul for their sins, but Peter still had to suffer (Acts 5:41) and be crucified, and Paul had to be beheaded, after undergoing much suffering (Acts 9:16)...

Believing in Jesus also means obeying Jesus, not just thinking that He is God and died for us...

---

Obeying and paying for my sins are two very different things.

Was Steven martyred to atone for his sins or for obedience? Was Paul beheaded to be a sacrifice for his sins or for the glory of God?

Claiming that I atone for my sins isn't obedience, it is saying that Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough, that yours is better. It is against the gospel. As the writer of Hebrews wrote, "so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many." And it is sufficient! "Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself." So Peter and Paul didn't suffer and die to atone, Christ did. They suffered and died for obedience and to the glory of God.

I am not sure how one could be a fan of Aggie football and deny purgatory exists, lol

Merry Christmas to all.

jrico2727 said:

---

I am not sure how one could be a fan of Aggie football and deny purgatory exists, lol

Merry Christmas to all.

---

I laughed. Merry Christmas!

Thaddeus73 said:

---

Quote:

---

Even a quick google search would show this claim is highly suspect.

---

Maccabees at the Council of Rome 382 AD


Decree of the Council of Rome (AD 382) on the Canon of Scripture during the reign of Pope Damasus I (AD 366-384).

Below is the first ecclesiastical decree on the Church's canonical books of the Sacred Scriptures. It is exactly the same canon used today by the Catholic Church Martin Luther removed seven of those books, plus portions to Daniel and Esther.

Quote:

---

"Likewise it has been said: Now indeed we must treat of the divine Scriptures, what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she ought to shun. The order of the Old Testament begins here: Genesis one book, Exodus one book, Leviticus one book, Numbers one book, Deuteronomy one book, Josue Nave one book, Judges one book, Ruth one book, Kings four books, Paralipomenon [i.e. Chronicles] two books, Psalms one book, Solomon three books, Proverbs one book, Ecclesiastes one book, Canticle of Canticles one book, likewise Wisdom one book, Ecclesiasticus [i.e. Sirach] one book.
Likewise the order of the Prophets. Isaias one book, Jeremias one book, with Ginoth, that is, with his Lamentations, Ezechiel one book, Daniel one book, Osee one book, Micheas one book, Joel one book, Abdias one book, Jonas one book, Nahum one book, Habacuc one book, Sophonias one book, Aggeus one book, Zacharias one book, Malachias one book. Likewise the order of the histories. Job one book, Tobias one book, Esdras two books [i.e. Ezra & Nehemiah], Esther one book, Judith one book, Machabees two books.

---

---

When you quote a random person who starts his defense off by lying, you know it's a work of fiction.

We essentially know nothing of the Council of Rome. What we do know is attributed to a document written at least 1 century later, who most modern scholars agree was likely not a papal document.

link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelasian_Decree

So yeah...take any decrees from this council with a heavy grain of a salt.

Thaddeus73 said:

---

Quote:

---

Tobias, Esdras, Wisdom, Sirach, etc are NOT divine/inspired scripture. The apocrypha is Jewish and was added to some (not all) Bibles.

---

They're all in the Gutenberg bible, published in the century before Luther and company demoted them...

---

Oddly they were also found in the Septuagint that was used by Christ in the Gospels, also included in the Dead Sea Scrolls which were being used at the time of Christ.

whatthehey78 said:

---

jrico2727 said:

---

Thaddeus73 said:

---

Quote:

---

Tobias, Esdras, Wisdom, Sirach, etc are NOT divine/inspired scripture. The apocrypha is Jewish and was added to some (not all) Bibles.

---

They're all in the Gutenberg bible, published in the century before Luther and company demoted them...

---

Oddly they were also found in the Septuagint that was used by Christ in the Gospels, also included in the Dead Sea Scrolls which were being used at the time of Christ.

---

Yes...for certain, heresy existed before, during, after Christ and as observed herein is with us today. It is a narrow road (few will find it) while the road to destruction is broad and WELL TRAVELED.

---

So if Christ participated in the festival of lights or Hanukkah , based of the Maccabees, as mentioned in the Gospel was he participating in heresy?

whatthehey78 said:

---

Tobias, Esdras, Wisdom, Sirach, etc are NOT divine/inspired scripture. The apocrypha is Jewish and was added to some (not all) Bibles. As for the Jews...sadly, they are not Christian and are not saved without their individual conversion. As for adding the apocrypha to one faith's Canon, it was done after the Canon was determined and simply to excuse prayer to the dead...which IS NOT a saving or scriptural act. Show me where Jesus or any of the Apostles prayed to the deceased for ANY reason...and do so, without using the "Jewish" apocrypha.

---

With all due respect, your account of the treatment of the "Apocryphal" books is completely fictional, non-historical, and in fact the exact opposite is what happened. Other Protestants on this board that argue against the "apocrypha" at least acknowledge and admit that these books were included prior to the Reformation, although they might debate their status as Scripture. In fact the "Apocrypha" was printed in the original 1611 KJV and virtually all Protestant Bibles until the 1800's.

So before we throw out part of the evidence we would use in support of our position, the onus falls on you to justify what you are demanding and provide some support for your claim.

You said the Apocrypha was "added after the Canon was determined". I am asking you to back up that statement and tell us when and where the canon of scripture was definitively determined, and by whom was it determined or at least proclaimed?

whatthehey78 said:

---

Tobias, Esdras, Wisdom, Sirach, etc are NOT divine/inspired scripture. The apocrypha is Jewish and was added to some (not all) Bibles. As for the Jews...sadly, they are not Christian and are not saved without their individual conversion. As for adding the apocrypha to one faith's Canon, it was done after the Canon was determined and simply to excuse prayer to the dead...which IS NOT a saving or scriptural act. Show me where Jesus or any of the Apostles prayed to the deceased for ANY reason...and do so, without using the "Jewish" apocrypha.

IMHO, to call one's self Christina and then practice or follow any Jewish custom/tradition as if it is Christian...is to become a 'Judaizer' and plainly contradicted by the Apostles.

May God bless and Merry CHRISTmas! Prayers for all of you.

---

The Apocrypha is not part of the Tanakh. Those books were important in the late second temple era, but their status as Biblical canon was deeply contested and opinions varied between and within sects.