dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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There is a new translation for the 21st Century out and it uses the word love.

Calvin was translated many years ago with a lot of King James language. Calvin used the word charity instead of love.

ARCHAIC
love of humankind, typically in a Christian context.
"faith, hope, and charity"

And Calvin also explains how we are to care for our fellow man.

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Just curious, how often did he use the word charity?

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I don't know. Calvin wrote in both French and Latin.

Caritas is the Latin word for regard, esteem, affection, and love. That's the one Calvin uses.


Here is a part of Calvin's commentary on John 3:16


"And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life."

What else do you got, Doc?

And in case you didn't notice…I didn't bring up the 5 points of Calvinism here. I am merely trying to let the Holy Spirit teach.

dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Weird. I haven't noticed one scripture verse quoted against the Reformed view, nor has anyone to yet interact with texts that I've both alluded to and have referenced.

Please do. Be like the Bereans in the book of Acts.
For they were praised for searching the Scriptures to discover and and most likely discuss if these things were true or not.

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Actually I have posted several like Luke 2:10, 1 Timothy 2 3-4, 2 Peter 3:9, etc.

I discovered it was a futile endeavor because you would add words to fit Calvinist theology. You see everything through a Calvinist lens so it is inconceivable to you that "all men" means ALL men. I mean, you went to a Reformed seminary so that is what you were taught.

Which I understand because every theology does that sometimes.

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Did you respond to this?

TheGreatEscape said:

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We have gone over the Timothy verse in its context in the Book of Common Prayer and 39 Articles thread. It's still waiting for you. Been waiting for weeks.

Let's go over 2 Peter 3:9 in its context. Who is the audience? Context means everything to establishing a doctrine, which means teaching. Which is what you are trying to do.



2 Peter 1:1-2 (ESV)

{Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

2 May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.}

St. Peter is specifically addressing this letter containing doctrine for those to whom have obtained faith. Obtained faith. Obtained faith.

Let's look at the beginning of the chapter which Peter addresses those whom have obtained faith as beloved.

1 Peter 3:1 (ESV)

"This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved.."

Then let us focus on the previous verse 8 in order to see the logical flow into verse 9.

2 Peter 3:8-9 (ESV)

{8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.}

Notice the pronoun "us" in verse 9 and how that connects to beloved in verse 8. Do they not teach what an antecedent is anymore in understanding and interpreting grammar?

This is another verse which gives great assurance of salvation to the beloved believer.


Otherwise, it makes the atonement lessened in its solidification in a wet cement foundation. For we cling to Christ alone for the hope of salvation. A hope that is an anchor and not trusting in our own free wills.

What does Paul state? "I take no confidence in the flesh."

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And I was a Biblical Studies major which includes 4 semesters of Greek at Arminian Dallas Baptist University.

Please spare all of that too. I went ad hoc to primary sources namely the Bible.

I will respond to Luke 2:10 and I guess copy and paste my Titus response because it goes over the same thing.

Luke 2:10 (ESV)

{10 And the angel said to them, "Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people}

Calvin's commentary on this verse.

"For God had promised Christ, not to one person or to another, but to the whole seed of Abraham. If the Jews were deprived, for the most part, of the joy that was offered to them, it arose from their unbelief; just as, at the present day, God invites all indiscriminately to salvation through the Gospel, but the ingratitude of the world is the reason why this grace, which is equally offered to all, is enjoyed by few."

And if you haven't go read the what is a Jew and what is Israel thread for more insight to what is going on in Luke through the history of redemption in the Hebrew Bible.

I, and many other theologians differ with your interpretation of the Scriptures I posted.

https://medium.com/four-courners-ministries/five-reasons-calvinism-is-a-false-doctrine-746846723315

Interesting article.

And for the record, I am not a theologian or as versed in this topic as you are. And you like to debate and win, which I find tiresome.

So you win.

And you really should teach at a Calvinist seminary. You are good at this.

The point is never to win. The point is for both of us to continue in repentance. For the Christian life is a life of constant mental repentance.

I was not trying to enter another debate. Debate is apart of our Jewish Rabbinic tradition. It's what St. Paul did when he entered synagogues first when he was on his three missionary journeys. It's what the apostle Paul does in his letter to the Romans and Galatians, for example.

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Weird. I haven't noticed one scripture verse quoted against the Reformed view, nor has anyone to yet interact with texts that I've both alluded to and have referenced.

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How do you Reformed guys deal with verses like Joshua 24:15, John 3:18, John 7:17, Mark 8:34, Romans 10:9, Revelation 3:20, and 1Timothy 2:4?

The Bible is replete with words that can mean nothing but free will. The verses above are just a few. How do you force fit election onto the Bible without making God's own words meaningless?

First the letter from the Apostle Paul to Timothy was that of pastoral concern. It's a very pastoral level letter.

1 Timothy 2

{2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth}

So one example St. Paul makes is of Kings being a type of people. And we know that St. Paul convinced Gentile Timothy to become circumcised in order to not be an unnecessary stumbling block for Jewish Christians submitting to Timothy's ministry at the church in Ephesus. In this manner, no where in Pauline thought does God's ultimate election of individual and communities of believers goes void here or contradicts.

For before church father Abraham was given a covenant before he was circumcised to be a blessing to all peoples. Meaning to all peoples who would enter his congregation and covenant. Abraham brought in 318 fighting men into his household. These fighting men were not of Abraham's physical seed. He was well over 90 and had Ismael and Isaac.

Abraham was also told to give the slaves bought a sign and seal of circumcision. They also received the Kingdom jot of this world as well as the visible here on earth (Genesis 12, 14, and 17).

St. Paul is making sure that Timothy presents the Gospel to all people groups and that includes ethnicities, status like Kings, and so on as an example in the context.

In the following verses of 1 Timothy 2, the Apostle also connects "all peoples" different peoples' status as man and woman are to conduct themselves in the Gospel and covenant of our Lord Jesus Christ.

For you had false gospels going around like the gnostic gospel of Thomas which appeared later questioning that women could obtain salvation to put it generously. This gnostic heresy was also dealt with and mentioned in 1 John.

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St. Paul is making sure that Timothy presents the Gospel to all people groups and that includes ethnicities, status like Kings, and so on as an example in the context.

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That's not in the passage, though. You just added it to make it fit your theology. That's a fundamental error that many theologians make.

God's actual words is that he desires all men to be saved. No qualifications, caveats, additions, or subtractions.

Jabin said:

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Weird. I haven't noticed one scripture verse quoted against the Reformed view, nor has anyone to yet interact with texts that I've both alluded to and have referenced.

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How do you Reformed guys deal with verses like Joshua 24:15, John 3:18, John 7:17, Mark 8:34, Romans 10:9, Revelation 3:20, and 1Timothy 2:4?

The Bible is replete with words that can mean nothing but free will. The verses above are just a few. How do you force fit election onto the Bible without making God's own words meaningless?

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You are reading free will into the texts commanding the conditional aspect of the covenant to God's chosen people.

These books are for the people of God.

2 Timothy 3:16

The command is apart of the law, which Paul says we cannot obey truly. We may have an outward appearance of righteousness; but we are white washed tombs inwardly as Jesus told the Pharisees.

The command to repent and believe is what drives us to bow our hearts and minds. Because whenever the word is preached, the Holy Spirit inspired word of God cuts between soul and spirit and makes us alive for obedience to the Gospel.

Ephesians 2:1-5 (ESV)

"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christby grace you have been saved"

Dead in sins and trespasses against God's Law. Think about that for a minute. You were not on life support. You were not bed ridden in illness. Interesting authoritative metaphor that St. Paul uses.

It's definitely not the metaphor used by most modern evangelical preachers.

But preachers didn't save you. No one preacher saved you.
You were saved by sovereign election which makes it an actual free gift imparted by the spirit working on the inclinations of the heart bent in devastation and dead.


For people do what they are most inclined to do. That is why constantly ask God to grant us true repentance.

Why did King David state that he meditates on the Law day and night?

That's because to obey it, that is for the Holy Spirit to change our state, we must be driven to ask for help in order to obey every word that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord.

Christianity isn't a check list to obey simple commands because we simply cannot in and of ourselves.

Jabin said:

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St. Paul is making sure that Timothy presents the Gospel to all people groups and that includes ethnicities, status like Kings, and so on as an example in the context.

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That's not in the passage, though. You just added it to make it fit your theology. That's a fundamental error that many theologians make.

God's actual words is that he desires all men to be saved. No qualifications, caveats, additions, or subtractions.

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Agree. It seems so simple and straightforward.

Just as Luke 2:10 and 2 Peter 3:9 do.

I will stick with the word of God.

TheGreatEscape said:

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Why did King David state that he meditates on the Law day and night?

That's because to obey it, that is for the Holy Spirit to change our state, we must be driven to ask for help in order to obey every word that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord.

Christianity isn't a check list to obey simple commands because we simply cannot in and of ourselves.

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You are talking about sanctification, not justification, correct? Because if not, you are describing a works based salvation in my opinion.

Becoming more Christlike through repentance, or a change of our minds.

Are you a Lordship salvation guy?

dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Why did King David state that he meditates on the Law day and night?

That's because to obey it, that is for the Holy Spirit to change our state, we must be driven to ask for help in order to obey every word that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord.

Christianity isn't a check list to obey simple commands because we simply cannot in and of ourselves.

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You are talking about sanctification, not justification, correct? Because if not, you are describing a works based salvation in my opinion.

Becoming more Christlike through repentance, or a change of our minds.

Are you a Lordship salvation guy?

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Repentance starts with acknowledging that our natural minds are at war when the God (Romans 8:9).
Theologians of old called church fathers believed that the word of God ministers to the mind which minsters to the rest of the soul and all that makes of the body or flesh. When this is done then it changes our wills and outward actions of repentance.

For we are to be renewed in the spirit of our minds.

This how we put on the mind of Christ (Ephesians 5 or is it 4?).

We are to be transformed by the renewing of our mind (Romans 12:2).

And Jesus includes worshipping and loving the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, MIND, and strength.
There is no greater commandment and Jesus sums up the first table of the Law (1-4).

Then Jesus is basically ordering them on purpose because if you don't get the first table of the Law right with God (1-4) , the you won't get the second table of the Law right (5-10).

And that is to love our neighbors as ourselves, right?

Well…even philosophers struggle with how an individual can get past himself and his past experience…

TheGreatEscape said:

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dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Why did King David state that he meditates on the Law day and night?

That's because to obey it, that is for the Holy Spirit to change our state, we must be driven to ask for help in order to obey every word that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord.

Christianity isn't a check list to obey simple commands because we simply cannot in and of ourselves.

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You are talking about sanctification, not justification, correct? Because if not, you are describing a works based salvation in my opinion.

Becoming more Christlike through repentance, or a change of our minds.

Are you a Lordship salvation guy?

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Repentance starts with acknowledging that our natural minds are at war when the God (Romans 8:9).
Theologians of old called church fathers believed that the word of God ministers to the mind which minsters to the rest of the soul and all that makes of the body or flesh. When this is done then it changes our wills and outward actions of repentance.

For we are to be renewed in the spirit of our minds.

This how we put on the mind of Christ (Ephesians 5 or is it 4?).

We are to be transformed by the renewing of our mind (Romans 12:2).

And Jesus includes worshipping and loving the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, MIND, and strength.
There is no greater commandment and Jesus sums up the first table of the Law (1-4).

Then Jesus is basically ordering them on purpose because if you don't get the first table of the Law right with God (1-4) , the you won't get the second table of the Law right (5-10).

And that is to love our neighbors as ourselves, right?

Well…even philosophers struggle with how an individual can get past himself and his past experience…

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You did not answer my questions.

Sounds very work based,

Sanctification and Justification are not inseparable as we often make them. It's called conversion.

I am a Lordship guy. Jesus said that you shall know a tree by its fruit. And God isn't done with anyone reading the power of these truths in their walk with Christ.

Jesus also discusses the sheep and the goats.
There are tons of conditional commands throughout the Old and New Testament covenant or relationship with God.

For the covenant is 100% unconditional of God's part and 100% conditional on man's part.

I think the non-Lordship folks have some sincerity and I believe covenant theology deals with the concern already.

So non-Lordship folks and the carnal Christian theory leads to easy-believesm. It's not easy and that why we cling to Christ plus nothing in order to bear his fruit. We pray without ceasing..not just at dinner. We pray in our minds for the Lord knows our thoughts throughout the day.

I got to it above this post. Your view is very antinomian or lawless.

So with all the Puritan poo pooing going on.

They are falsely claimed to have been under legalism or antinomianism. Which one is it?

Which one are the Reformed Puritans? Which ones are we Reformed?

What other nonsense will be brought up? Because it needs to be dealt with.

Colossians 2:18 (ESV)

{Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind,}

In other words, worshipping the will as if men were angels.

"In Colossians 2:23, "a show of wisdom in will-worship," for ethelothreskia), a word found nowhere else but formed exactly like "will-worship": worship originating in the human will as opposed to the divine, arbitrary religious acts, worthless despite their difficulty of performance."

Google

Free will worship…let it be anathema in the Christians' heart, mind, and speech.

TheGreatEscape said:

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I got to it above this post. Your view is very antinomian or lawless.

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Disagree. I believe when we are born again we no longer need the law because we do not want to sin.

We are a new creature. We are not under the Law. Praise God.

I am a grace guy and not legalistic. The sin me is dead. It died at the cross.

I believe when we abide with Lord we produce fruit because of Him.

And I am not a Lordship salvation guy. And do not live a hedonistic lifestyle. And love the Lord. And my neighbor.

But my salvation is not based on anything I do except believe. Which of course is repentance because I changed my mind.

And which works and how many do I need to do to fulfill your definition of Lordship salvation? And which pastor do I listen to know what I NEED to do to keep my salvation? Piper? Chan? MacArthur? Are all their "requirements" the same?

How do you deal with Jesus in Matthew 5 stating that not one jot or tittle of the Law will pass away so long as heaven and earth remain? He says that he came not to abolish the law but it fulfill it.

How is the law fulfilled? By love in fellowship to Christ and the Scripture in community. In that sense we are not under the dead works of the law.
And if you simply read James and Paul, then you will find that the law of God from the Hebrew Bible laced within the text compliments the outworking of the power of the Gospel of which I am not ashamed because it brought me to salvation. Without the Law there is no awareness of sin. That was from what St. Paul wrote in Romans 2-4.

So every time you read an instruction in the New Testament; it is from the Law of God applied.

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How do you deal with Jesus in Matthew 5 stating that not one jot or tittle of the Law will pass away so long as heaven and earth remain? He says that he came not to abolish the law but it fulfill it.

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He was talking there to the Jews and letting them know that without him their only hope was in complete obedience to the law, an impossible task. Most people have a gross misunderstanding of Christ's teachings there.

If he fulfilled the Law, then what is left of the Law? His point was not that the law remained, but rather that through him we all can achieve perfect holiness before God. Having achieved that, continued obedience to the Law has no point, as Paul repeatedly pointed out.

Christ didn't mean that the Law continued [ETA:L as to believers], because then his claim to have fulfilled it would be meaningless.

{And which works and how many do I need to do to fulfill your definition of Lordship salvation? And which pastor do I listen to know what I NEED to do to keep my salvation? Piper? Chan? MacArthur? Are all their "requirements" the same?}

I am glad that you asked. These men are baptists and are really insightful on obedience. But you really need to just sit and soak with Dr. Ferguson because he deals with a broader picture. Simple and yet profound is what my dad said of his preaching. Another one would be R.C Sproul lectures on covenant and the Christian life…maybe…Sproul was a definition guy. Ferguson is a pastoral theologian. He is great on the Holy Spirit, for instance. Both can be found all over YouTube for free.

Works requirements?

To believe is an action verb. Faith is an action. Too choose something is an action.

That is why faith is a gift of God. Read Ephesians 2:8-9 and look for the antecedent pronoun connecting to the first phrase and further qualified "and that not of ourselves lest any man should boast."

I think I have the NKJV memorized. Let me try.

"For by grace you have been saved by faith, this is not of yourselves, for IT is a gift of God not of works lest any man should boast."

And yes…we are new creations in verse 10 that follows.

So as a result of believing in the Gospel of Ephesians 2:8-9 continuously on your mind now go do good works that you'd have been recreated for…

But what I have witnessed is a bunch of boasting in the form of left handed comments made by many preachers in modern evangelicalism.

"Christ died for everyone. Now it is your choice to accept or reject it. You have a free will. Use your free will like this example here in our shallow understanding of the full counsel of God's Gospel. Here is a testimony that i will tell you about a man who was struggling with such and such.
For this man made the best choice of his life and accepted Christ. Christ loves you unconditionally but there is a condition that you have to make on your own today."

I'm just giving a summary of some things that I grew up with and still hear today. It's a half-truth.

And more on works.

St. James is not contradicting St. Paul when he states that "Faith without works is dead."

What James is teaching is that genuine and mature faith produces works.

Jabin said:

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How do you deal with Jesus in Matthew 5 stating that not one jot or tittle of the Law will pass away so long as heaven and earth remain? He says that he came not to abolish the law but it fulfill it.

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He was talking there to the Jews and letting them know that without him their only hope was in complete obedience to the law, an impossible task. Most people have a gross misunderstanding of Christ's teachings there.

If he fulfilled the Law, then what is left of the Law? His point was not that the law remained, but rather that through him we all can achieve perfect holiness before God. Having achieved that, continued obedience to the Law has no point, as Paul repeatedly pointed out.

Christ didn't mean that the Law continued, because then his claim to have fulfilled it would be meaningless.

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There is no mention of Jesus' audience being that of Jewish leaders and such in the text of Matthew or Matthew would have mentioned that as he always does.

Look at verse 1 of the Chapter before the Beatitudes.

Matthew 5:1 (ESV)

"Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down, his disciples came to him."

No other assumption can be made but that when Jesus speaks about the Law and the Prophets that he was speaking to both physical-Jew and true Jew (Christians/followers of the way).



" But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter"(Rom. 7:6).

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through law (Rom. 7:8)."

"Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good (Rom. 7:12)."

"For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man (Rom. 7:22)."

First, my statement that Christ was speaking to the Pharisees is the view of John Stott as expressed in his book entitled "Sermon on the Mount".

Second, just because Christ was talking at that moment to his disciples does not mean that he was not also addressing the Pharisees and their teachings. Their teachings had permeated and corrupted all of Judaism, and Christ was addressing some of their core teachings. The Pharisees, knowing the impossibility of completely obeying the law, had been watering down the law in their writings and interpretations. Christ was specifically addressing that, telling his audience that every little jot and tittle of the law must be obeyed in order to achieve salvation through it.

All teachers engage in that practice. For example, a pastor may preach to his audience of the wrongness of "blessing" same sex relationships. Even though no one in his audience may be a Catholic, the pastor is nevertheless addressing the recent news from the Vatican.

And, again, if Christ fulfilled the law, then what is the remaining purpose of the law for followers of Christ?

I have always looked at this issue from that practical perspective. I suppose my thoughts on hell, the nature of hell, etc do little to affect the actuality of the subject.

Therefore ,the important question to me is always what do these notions of hell do to me in the here and now? How does my notion of hell, or anyone else's notion for that matter, draw me closer to God? How is my vision of Christ improved? That's the question which I am interested in from each of you. I think dermodoc answered this to an extent earlier in the thread.

I often try to remind myself of the purpose of theology...to know God more clearly. (not to spark another debate as to the nature of theology )

I agree with Stott. In fact, I was actually stating the same thing in a different way.

Romans 13:8-10 (ESV)

{8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.}

Ephesians 6:2 (ESV)

{2 "Honor your father and mother" (this is the first commandment with a promise),}

1 John 2:3-4 (ESV)

{3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,}

Romans 6:15 (ESV)

{15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!}

So in a sense the law was obsolete according to the author of a Hebrews. For the Law could not justify.
However, the law is perfect and helpful in giving us an example to work out our own salvation in fear and trembling into the full assurance of unconditional love as we cling to Christ alone who works both in us to (free)will and do his good pleasure. This is the way of love.

ChaplainMCH said:

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I have always looked at this issue from that practical perspective. I suppose my thoughts on hell, the nature of hell, etc do little to affect the actuality of the subject.

Therefore ,the important question to me is always what do these notions of hell do to me in the here and now? How does my notion of hell, or anyone else's notion for that matter, draw me closer to God? How is my vision of Christ improved? That's the question which I am interested in from each of you. I think dermodoc answered this to an extent earlier in the thread.

I often try to remind myself of the purpose of theology...to know God more clearly. (not to spark another debate as to the nature of theology )

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Hell is somewhere in a very small portion in the back of the Christian mind and soul. Heaven is best understood in its contrast to the place of God's wrath.

Hell is an attention getter for the class of unregenerate mankind to learn further what it means to trust in the Lord.
In school we have anticipatory sets, bell ringers, warmups, and attention getters to start the conversation.

Love is a conversation.

Hence as I previously stated in other words;

If any person wants to only know Christ in order to escape hell and get into heaven instead; that person has reason to doubt his or her salvation. For unless Christ becomes your all in all, then God is teaching you some more things on Sunday morning and throughout the week.

We have a lot of Sunday only Christians. It's another topic.

All of Christ in all of life.

Good example some of you who know how simple grammar and historical hermeneutics work.

No wonder we have secularists interpreting the US Constitution out of its context.

And your ministry as an hospital chaplain is going to look differently.

ChaplainMCH said:

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I have always looked at this issue from that practical perspective. I suppose my thoughts on hell, the nature of hell, etc do little to affect the actuality of the subject.

Therefore ,the important question to me is always what do these notions of hell do to me in the here and now? How does my notion of hell, or anyone else's notion for that matter, draw me closer to God? How is my vision of Christ improved? That's the question which I am interested in from each of you. I think dermodoc answered this to an extent earlier in the thread.

I often try to remind myself of the purpose of theology...to know God more clearly. (not to spark another debate as to the nature of theology )

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Well stated. I think there is a ton of depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts associated with the thought of ECT hell. I know I have suffered from that.

And then if you really believe that people are going to ECT hell without your witness or testimony then I believe you should spend 24/7 trying to save people from eternal torment. And I found that drove me crazy.

So I read Scripture and Jesus, Paul, Peter, and the apostles did not get in a hurry trying to "save" people. And their sermons do not really mention eternal torment hell which seems odd as that would seem to be pretty important.

I mean, except for rare occasions, Jesus did not deal with anybody but the Jews. Seems odd that He would not warn the Gentiles about an eternal torture chamber. And be much more intentional without parables in trying to "save" all those doomed to hell around Him.

And let's think about eternity. God is just according to Scripture.

Is it just to sentence folks who never had a chance to be "saved" to eternal torment?

So I came to peace with the Lord. And as the scripture says I abide in Him and He produces the fruits through me effortlessly.

And losing my fear of hell, I am much more vocal about my faith.

It is strange that lordship salvation, works, and legalism folks are afraid that if we just accept God's grace that we will be hedonistic and I find it just the opposite. Once I really became aware that God loved me and I was a sinner in the hands of a loving God, I witness all the time, am at peace, and achieved shalom.

And Jesus talked a ton more about how we are to live this life than heaven or hell.

TheGreatEscape said:

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Hell is an attention getter....If any person wants to only know Christ in order to escape hell and get into heaven instead; that person has reason to doubt his or her salvation. For unless Christ becomes your all in all, then

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Thanks so much for that reply!

So help me understand this better. Hell got your attention initially? Is that what your are saying? And then that opened up the conversation towards God? Am I picking up what you're laying down?

dermdoc,

Thanks for that! I'm sorry you experienced that early on, in interacting with Christianity no less! I like the idea that once you let go of fear, then the peace of God had room to move in. That's wonderful to hear.

God bless you!