Ephesians 1:1-2 (ESV)

{To the SAINTS who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.}


I've read it posted on this forum that many do not believe in divine punishment. Jesus may have not discussed hades or hell all that much. However, hell is all over the scriptures that hades is a negative place for the soul to exist in the afterlife.

In Jesus' day, the Sadducee's were a very wealthy group who didn't believe in the resurrection like the Pharisees and Essenes did. We have something similar going on in today's Christianity.

Here are some verses on hell or hades. Read the context in the verse and tell me that hades is a good place to go?

https://www.openbible.info/topics/defeated_death_hell_and_the_grave

Let's discuss the Great Awakening in the British 18th Century Colonies. Church historians describe how the Awakening first happened among the Dutch Reformed namely around the New York area. The Dutch Reformed Tradition has a bigger emphasis on the corporate than many modern evangelicals obtain. But it was said that the Awakening brought about the focus on the individual. Well…that's kind of an half-truth…maybe…For they didn't separate the trees from the forest and the forest from the trees in any of the sermons or writing of the leaders of the Great Awakening in the colonies like Jonathan Edwards and George Whitfield who also held to the both/and of corporate and individual experience in relation to the Divine.

In fact.., Whitfield's denomination was concerned about his open air field preaching that brought many to the Lord because Christianity requires us to be grounded in fellowship in the church.

Now back to the title of the OP.

Jonathan Edwards was the key influence of the Great Awakening. His sermon named "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God," was just one small portion of his works. They often published their sermons back in those days. This sermon spread like a fire.

The sermon is mentioned in many high school English classes and that's about all we learn about Edwards in government schools.

I learned in a class over the Puritans with Dr. Sinclair Ferguson that "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" was an attention getting sermon. And I have personally read through most of Edwards stuff and never saw anything like his attention getting sermon that ignited such a revival in the Colonies. For Edwards then emphasized that we are saved sheer grace. And that grace is a relational joy in the glories of Christ namely the Word. Just wanting to escape hell isn't enough. The Law brings conviction and brings us near and causes the heart to fear God which drives us into his wonderful love. Because unless Christ becomes your all in all, then just wanting to escape hell is not enough. It may be apart of the process. But it isn't the supreme motivation in the Christians life of gratitude in response of the good news of the gospel in all of life. Gratitude is the open door of walking in the Spirit.

Galatians 5:16 (NKJV)

{16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh}

The Puritans understood that some are wooed in and others are scared into the Kingdom. For the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom (Proverbs 9:10).

The Puritans taught that you have to plow the ground first before the seed can be planted. And even we Christians are commanded to plow our own hearts.

Hosea 10:12 (ESV)

"Sow for yourselves righteousness; reap steadfast love; break up your fallow ground, for it is the time to seek the Lord, that he may come and rain righteousness upon you."

My Southern Baptist mom first came to know the Lord personally in 1960 when a preacher was preaching on hell and the light bulbs went off, so to speak.

She has never stumbled away from the flock, nor has committed such grievous sins as myself and others have committed. She knows that she is a sinner saved by grace alone through the gift and partnership of faith alone.

I am not ashamed to use an attention getter. Hell gets our attention.

Hebrews 9:27 (ESV)

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"

I hold to exactly that as well.

Here is a good book on heaven from an holistically biblical definition.

https://reformedchristianbooks.com/products/heaven?variant=40656801333282

TheGreatEscape said:

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I hold to exactly that as well.

Here is a good book on heaven from an holistically biblical definition.

https://reformedchristianbooks.com/products/heaven?variant=40656801333282

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I added some that I doubt you agree with. Sorry.

dermdoc said:

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I believe when we die we go to an intermediate state with the Lord. Scripture is pretty clear judgement does not occur until Christ returns.

Then we get our new bodies and New Jerusalem and God come down to us.

Discussing concepts of hell on an Internet forum is futile in my opinion. I do not think "turn or burn" is good theology and is not effective in bringing about true change and repentance.

And I do not see that tactic used by the apostles in Acts or by Paul and Peter.

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Here is St. Peter.

2 Peter 2:4 (ESV)

"For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;"

1 Peter 3:19 (ESV)

"In which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison,"

2 Peter 3:7 (ESV)

"But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly."

Here is St. Paul giving reference to hell to death. Death is what happens to the unbeliever. For the Christian will be raised from the dead. St. Paul is not contradicting Jesus Christ or St. Peter, for instance. There is also the concept of the culture of sin and death going on in Pauline theology.

1 Corinthians 15:5 (ESV) St. Paul

"O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"

Sting of what? Final justice and judgment…



While Luke is presenting a historical narrative genre in book of Acts, he has already laid down the foundation in his Gospel.

Acts 2:14 (ESV)

"God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it."

What could that possibly mean in the context of Scripture?


Luke 12:5 (ESV)


"But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!"

Then there is the parable of the rich man named Lasarus that St. Luke also records as the words of Jesus. Lasarus was begging for a drop of water from the afterlife and the place of judgement.

And it's not like Christians in the book of Acts were unaware of St. Luke's or St. Mark's or St. Matthew's gospel which also has references to hell.

Scriptura Scripturae interpres

Scripture interprets Scripture…

Here is St. Jude stating:

"Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire."

St. Jude also compares unbelievers being judged along with the fallen Angels in eternal torment.

Mentions hell twice in a very short letter. Must be important…

Actually, Yeshua (Jesus) speaks of judgment, damnation, Gehena (hell) more than any other Bible character, by a wide margin.

Agreed.

Well…he does. No contest. Was just trying to show charity that it isn't the only emphasis of Christ.
The fear of the Lord which points us to submit to the love of the Lord work hand in hand.

"I fear God because I am such a miserable sinner; but I hope because he is such a wonderful savior!"

Charles Spurgeon

Moreover, this is also true.

Romans 2:4 (ESV)

"Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?"

In other words, Paul mentions judgement in Romans chapter 1. Then he adds this verse in Romans 2:4.

People have to be confronted with the bad news in order for the awareness of their separated relationship with God in order to NOT continue in their sins of unrepentant hearts.

The bad news comes first. Then..the good news goes along with in contrast. Maroon is a dark color and not greatly scene when matched with black, for example. White is the best color to contrast with maroon.

The ground must be plowed first before the seed is planted.

It is written that the word of the Lord is sharper than any two-edged sword and is able to divide between soul and spirit..

Side point:

We battle the world, the flesh, and the devil.
The devil is a single created being. He and his minions are jot omnipresent. God is omnipresent.

King David said, " though I make my bed in Sheol, you will be there."

Sin separate us from a proper relationship with God, right?
But sin doesn't separate us from God. For "In him we live and move and have our being," is what St. Paul told the pagan philosophers in Athens, Greece.

We are thus not biblical when we tell people that hell is an eternal separation from God. It is actually the wrath of God left over that didn't cover them in Christ, who is our propitiation (mercy seat). Nor does kindness of God lead them into repentance if they don't know all of that which they are being saved from for conversion.

This might sound odd. I don't care. We worship the God of heaven and hell as well. For God is omnipresent.
That is not to say that we delight in the destruction of the wicked. It puts us in awe. God bore the pain and did not delight in the destruction of the wicked. So much so that he sent is one and only unique Son to earth to live with us, teach us, suffer for us in even the death on the cross, burial, and resurrection.

Win At Life said:

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Actually, Yeshua (Jesus) speaks of judgment, damnation, Gehena (hell) more than any other Bible character, by a wide margin.

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He mentioned Gehenna more than anyone else in the Bible.

The word hell was invented later by translators. That word never appeared in the original manuscripts which almost every Protestant church has in its beliefs section.

I love you guys so I am stopping here as far as discussion. Will link 3 books that discuss this with extensive Scriptural references.

dermdoc said:

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Win At Life said:

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Actually, Yeshua (Jesus) speaks of judgment, damnation, Gehena (hell) more than any other Bible character, by a wide margin.

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He mentioned Gehenna more than anyone else in the Bible.

The word hell was invented later by translators. That word never appeared in the original manuscripts which almost every Protestant church has in its beliefs section.

I love you guys so I am stopping here as far as discussion. Will link 3 books that discuss this with extensive Scriptural references.

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Doc, you're right, but I don't get your point. The translators did not use hardly any of the original Greek words.

Also, our understanding of what gehenna/hell means comes from Christ's description of it. The translators could have translated the word as "silly putty" and we'd still have the same understanding.

Or am I missing something and you mean something else?

Jabin said:

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dermdoc said:

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Win At Life said:

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Actually, Yeshua (Jesus) speaks of judgment, damnation, Gehena (hell) more than any other Bible character, by a wide margin.

---

He mentioned Gehenna more than anyone else in the Bible.

The word hell was invented later by translators. That word never appeared in the original manuscripts which almost every Protestant church has in its beliefs section.

I love you guys so I am stopping here as far as discussion. Will link 3 books that discuss this with extensive Scriptural references.

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Doc, you're right, but I don't get your point. The translators did not use hardly any of the original Greek words.

Also, our understanding of what gehenna/hell means comes from Christ's description of it. The translators could have translated the word as "silly putty" and we'd still have the same understanding.

Or am I missing something and you mean something else?

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He was talking to an audience of Jews. There was no concept of hell in the OT, only Sheol. I think it is a huge jump to go to ECT hell from Gehenna.

Seems strange that in Acts or Paul or Peter's sermons eternal torment hell was never mentioned. You would think that would be a point of emphasis.

And I agree with you on the translation problem. David Bentley Hart's New Testament and Young's Literal translation are probably the two translations most true to the original Greek.

Look up the Greek work kolasis from Matthew 25:46 which is usually interred as retributive punishment.

Most Greek scholars interpret it as a pruning process with timoria being reserved for vindictive punishment.

Whatever, I will shut up as I love you guys and this subject creates divisiveness which I am not for.

Shalom

Quote:

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He was talking to an audience of Jews. There was no concept of hell in the OT, only Sheol. I think it is a huge jump to go to ECT hell from Gehenna.

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But Christ did not use the word Sheol, he used Gehenna. And that obviously meant something to his audience. What that meaning was, we're not completely sure, but his description of Gehenna as flames, eternal torment, etc. apparently didn't cause any reaction from his audience. So, by the time of Christ, the Jews were apparently familiar with Gehenna as a term for a post-death place of flames and eternal torment.

I'm not sure, though, that Christ necessarily meant a literal place. He may have or he may not have. But just because we're uncomfortable with Christ's teachings does not mean that we should reinterpret them to make them meaningless or non-literal. We have to take the hard with the easy.

And you say that you're going to bow out, but you bring this topic (and the topic of double-predestination) up constantly on these threads.

dermdoc said:

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You cite liberals who don't believe in the infallibility of the Bible.

Second, Gehenna was a development from the Jewish Rabbinic Tradition. Are we supposed to adhere to the Talmud as well?

Gehenna is an Hebrew word. The Gospel writers and the Apostles would have known of Ghenna and still rejected its heretical underpinnings. The NT 99% written in Koine Greek for a reason. The Apostle Paul was a Pharisee of the Pharisees with many accolade. If the concept of Gehenna needed to be implemented into our faith, St. Paul would have presented it. I don't know who these people you are reading are (other than they are liberals) but the one guy I'll stick with happens to be the Apostle Paul.

dermdoc said:

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Win At Life said:

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Actually, Yeshua (Jesus) speaks of judgment, damnation, Gehena (hell) more than any other Bible character, by a wide margin.

---

He mentioned Gehenna more than anyone else in the Bible.

The word hell was invented later by translators. That word never appeared in the original manuscripts which almost every Protestant church has in its beliefs section.

I love you guys so I am stopping here as far as discussion. Will link 3 books that discuss this with extensive Scriptural references.

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Not true. I have a Greek New Testament with me. Hades is the Greek word for the Hebrew word Sheol. The New Testament further explains with authority what Sheol is with the word usage of Hades.

Gehenna is not even the Greek word or concept of eternal punishment presented in the text of Scripture. Are we going to take out the lake of fire for eternity as well and gnashing of teeth?

So, you try to make an invalid point and then send us a blessing and leave the discussion. You are better than that, Doctor.

dermdoc said:

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Jabin said:

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dermdoc said:

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Win At Life said:

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Actually, Yeshua (Jesus) speaks of judgment, damnation, Gehena (hell) more than any other Bible character, by a wide margin.

---

He mentioned Gehenna more than anyone else in the Bible.

The word hell was invented later by translators. That word never appeared in the original manuscripts which almost every Protestant church has in its beliefs section.

I love you guys so I am stopping here as far as discussion. Will link 3 books that discuss this with extensive Scriptural references.

---

Doc, you're right, but I don't get your point. The translators did not use hardly any of the original Greek words.

Also, our understanding of what gehenna/hell means comes from Christ's description of it. The translators could have translated the word as "silly putty" and we'd still have the same understanding.

Or am I missing something and you mean something else?

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He was talking to an audience of Jews. There was no concept of hell in the OT, only Sheol. I think it is a huge jump to go to ECT hell from Gehenna.

Seems strange that in Acts or Paul or Peter's sermons eternal torment hell was never mentioned. You would think that would be a point of emphasis.

And I agree with you on the translation problem. David Bentley Hart's New Testament and Young's Literal translation are probably the two translations most true to the original Greek.

Look up the Greek work kolasis from Matthew 25:46 which is usually interred as retributive punishment.

Most Greek scholars interpret it as a pruning process with timoria being reserved for vindictive punishment.

Whatever, I will shut up as I love you guys and this subject creates divisiveness which I am not for.

Shalom

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I've already answered this, brother. Stop being a troublemaker without textual authority.

Peter and Paul's sermons in the book of Acts are not the only form of preaching. Acts is an historical narrative genre. It is descriptive and not always prescriptive. For example, the early church in the book of Acts shared all possessions and money. This is descriptive and not prescriptive, unless you want to be 19th Century Leo Tolstoy laying the foundations for communism in Russia…

Secondly, i have already mentioned this. Men of God like Jonathan Edwards would get the attention of the soul with the mention of Hades or hell and all of their other sermons were more similar to Peter and Paul's sermons in the book of Acts.

Plus, how did we get to the book of Acts? Jesus laid the groundwork in his teachings on hades or hell.
Passing the Jesus test in theology is always a good idea.
Jesus is prescriptive when he speaks.

And these posts are why I am leaving the discussion.

dermdoc said:

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And these posts are why I am leaving the discussion.

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Your absence and silence speaks volumes. Welcome to historic Christianity and Judaism. We debate everything just like our mode Jesus and the Apostle Paul, for instance.

I love you and love also rejoices in the truth (Romans 13).

TheGreatEscape said:

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dermdoc said:

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And these posts are why I am leaving the discussion.

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Your absence and silence speaks volumes. Welcome to historic Christianity and Judaism. We debate everything just like our mode Jesus and the Apostle Paul, for instance.

I love you and love also rejoices in the truth (Romans 13).

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I am too lazy to type out the myriad of Scriptures of Christian Universalism with rehabilitative not retributive punishment.

That is why I gave the 3 book references. Weird how I will read Calvinist or other theology different than my own to explore and yet no one on here will read my linked sources.

And it is like the discussion we had on 1 Timothy 2 3-4 the other day. The inerrant reading says all men. It does not say all kinds of men.

Scripture is inerrant by definition. The problem becomes that the Scripture is interpreted differently usually to fit a pre conceived theology.

And sorry but I am not going to debate this subject for the umpteenth time on here.

In fact, I understand I could be wrong on this. But it doesn't affect my walk or eternal destination

In fact, it has made me much more evangelistic and loving. Grace always does that.

Shalom my brother.

Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, Hell with flames, Hell with no flames …whatever..call it what you want (and to be honest I don't know myself)…but what I am certain of is that in this "place" we would be without God…whether it's in a burning inferno or cold and lonely place, it matters little when compared to being without His presence…I think we can all agree it's not where we want to be..

88Warrior said:

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Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, Hell with flames, Hell with no flames …whatever..call it what you want (and to be honest I don't know myself)…but what I am certain of is that in this "place" we would be without God…whether it's in a burning inferno or cold and lonely place, it matters little when compared to being without His presence…I think we can all agree it's not where we want to be..

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Eastern Orthodox theology is that we end up all in the presence of God. God's burning love is bliss for believers and torment for non believers.

Whatever happens, I certainly do not believe that God sends anyone to hell. That is why I can not believe in double predestination.

dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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dermdoc said:

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And these posts are why I am leaving the discussion.

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Your absence and silence speaks volumes. Welcome to historic Christianity and Judaism. We debate everything just like our mode Jesus and the Apostle Paul, for instance.

I love you and love also rejoices in the truth (Romans 13).

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I am too lazy to type out the myriad of Scriptures of Christian Universalism with rehabilitative not retributive punishment.

That is why I gave the 3 book references. Weird how I will read Calvinist or other theology different than my own to explore and yet no one on here will read my linked sources.

And it is like the discussion we had on 1 Timothy 2 3-4 the other day. The inerrant reading says all men. It does not say all kinds of men.

Scripture is inerrant by definition. The problem becomes that the Scripture is interpreted differently usually to fit a pre conceived theology.

And sorry but I am not going to debat this subject for the umpteenth time on here.

Shalom my brother.

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And you know what I did in that 39 articles and the book of common prayer (which you stole from us..half joke) thread. I used scripture to dismantle this argument and you didn't want to go to the text with me at all. You had no response and you call this love?

Love receives correction from the Scriptures. You always just throw a hand grenade and run. They are duds. But that's the pattern that you have shown.

Universalism is an example of outright heresy. Do you have a female pastor, too?

Your whole God is only love this love is God is not what the Scriptures teach. God is also just. And everyone of us deserves eternal damnation without the merit and work of Christ applied to us. The death angel is coming. So we need to be telling everyone to apply the blood to their doorposts.

This God is only love stuff does not display the full character or whole counsel of God in the Scriptures.

I don't know who has bewitched you on here. But it is dangerous. You aren't much different then the God is only love liberal mainliners.

dermdoc said:

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88Warrior said:

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Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, Hell with flames, Hell with no flames …whatever..call it what you want (and to be honest I don't know myself)…but what I am certain of is that in this "place" we would be without God…whether it's in a burning inferno or cold and lonely place, it matters little when compared to being without His presence…I think we can all agree it's not where we want to be..

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Eastern Orthodox theology is that we end up all in the presence of God. God's burning love is bliss for believers and torment for non believers.

Whatever happens, I certainly do not believe that God sends anyone to hell. That is why I can not believe in double predestination.

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And you keep stating that. So it comes down to man's unsinful inclinations that makes God into a get happy unsovereign Santa Claus where man's choice was merit because he was a little wiser in and of himself by choosing Christ over his fellow man.

I find it odd that you read Dr. Ferguson on suicide on the suicide thread that I presented. You said that you agreed with him. It was a very short argument.

But in it Dr. Ferguson said that rejection of Christ is the unpardonable sin. You had no objections to that. So if rejection of Christ is the unpardonable sin, then choosing Christ is something righteous, no?

TheGreatEscape said:

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dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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dermdoc said:

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And these posts are why I am leaving the discussion.

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Your absence and silence speaks volumes. Welcome to historic Christianity and Judaism. We debate everything just like our mode Jesus and the Apostle Paul, for instance.

I love you and love also rejoices in the truth (Romans 13).

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I am too lazy to type out the myriad of Scriptures of Christian Universalism with rehabilitative not retributive punishment.

That is why I gave the 3 book references. Weird how I will read Calvinist or other theology different than my own to explore and yet no one on here will read my linked sources.

And it is like the discussion we had on 1 Timothy 2 3-4 the other day. The inerrant reading says all men. It does not say all kinds of men.

Scripture is inerrant by definition. The problem becomes that the Scripture is interpreted differently usually to fit a pre conceived theology.

And sorry but I am not going to debat this subject for the umpteenth time on here.

Shalom my brother.

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And you know what I did in that 39 articles and the book of common prayer (which you stole from us..half joke) thread. I used scripture to dismantle this argument and you didn't want to go to the text with me at all. You had no response and you call this love?

Love receives correction from the Scriptures. You always just throw a hand grenade and run. They are duds. But that's the pattern that you have shown.

Universalism is an example of outright heresy. Do you have a female pastor, too?

Your whole God is only love this love is God is not what the Scriptures teach. God is also just. And everyone of us deserves eternal damnation without the merit and work of Christ applied to us. The death angel is coming. So we need to be telling everyone to apply the blood to their doorposts.

This God is only love stuff does not display the full character or whole counsel of God in the Scriptures.

I don't know who has bewitched you on here. But it is dangerous. You aren't much different then the God is only love liberal mainliners.

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Nobody has bewitched me. I have carefully studied this for years as I was a much harsher Christian in my younger days.

And love would be for you (or anyone else on here) to actually take the time to read my links.

I have read Chan, Sproul, MacArthur, and Piper.

With an open mind.

I disagree with them but at least I read them. And just like our discussion on 1 Timothy 2 2-4, 2 Peter 3:9, Luke 2:10, etc.

We are reading the same words. And we have different interpretations. These arguments have gone on for two thousand years.

You do know that there are Christian universalist saints and even Augustine did not condemn them

dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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dermdoc said:

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And these posts are why I am leaving the discussion.

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Your absence and silence speaks volumes. Welcome to historic Christianity and Judaism. We debate everything just like our mode Jesus and the Apostle Paul, for instance.

I love you and love also rejoices in the truth (Romans 13).

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I am too lazy to type out the myriad of Scriptures of Christian Universalism with rehabilitative not retributive punishment.

That is why I gave the 3 book references. Weird how I will read Calvinist or other theology different than my own to explore and yet no one on here will read my linked sources.

And it is like the discussion we had on 1 Timothy 2 3-4 the other day. The inerrant reading says all men. It does not say all kinds of men.

Scripture is inerrant by definition. The problem becomes that the Scripture is interpreted differently usually to fit a pre conceived theology.

And sorry but I am not going to debat this subject for the umpteenth time on here.

Shalom my brother.

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And you know what I did in that 39 articles and the book of common prayer (which you stole from us..half joke) thread. I used scripture to dismantle this argument and you didn't want to go to the text with me at all. You had no response and you call this love?

Love receives correction from the Scriptures. You always just throw a hand grenade and run. They are duds. But that's the pattern that you have shown.

Universalism is an example of outright heresy. Do you have a female pastor, too?

Your whole God is only love this love is God is not what the Scriptures teach. God is also just. And everyone of us deserves eternal damnation without the merit and work of Christ applied to us. The death angel is coming. So we need to be telling everyone to apply the blood to their doorposts.

This God is only love stuff does not display the full character or whole counsel of God in the Scriptures.

I don't know who has bewitched you on here. But it is dangerous. You aren't much different then the God is only love liberal mainliners.

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Nobody has bewitched me. I have carefully studied this for years as I was a much harsher Christian in my younger days.

And love would be for you (or anyone else on here) to actually take the time to read my links.

I have read Chan, Sproul, MacArthur, and Piper.

With an open mind.

I disagree it's them but at least I read them.

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I'm not reading trash supporting the bad things in the Talmud. No thank you. I'll just stick with knowing what the Talmud teaches and doesn't teach to witness to physical-Jews. I go ad hoc and that's all I'm called for right now.

Love for you would be to submit to the authority of the Scriptures on this topic and every other topic that you bring up that also has bad news in it. It's reality.

The man named Job corrected his wife who was blaming this, that, and the other thing on this, that, and the other thing; and Job corrected her by asking, "Should we only accept the good from God and not the bad?"

That's where you are and that's the larger problem.

2 Timothy 3:16 (from memorization)

"All scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for doctrine, for correction, for instruction in righteousness…that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

You're very good in some works and I have rejoiced with you on such things that I see in you that are fruit bearing online.

But we, and this includes me because I bow my knee, must be equipped for every good work. For the presentation of the Gospel or good news is also a good work and must be scripturally founded. You can have such a thing as false assurance and self-deception.

And I believe I fully believe in the perseverance of the saints, which is also called the preservation of the saints.

True saints adhere to the warning of Scripture because they've been given a heart that both loves God and fear Our Father's correction.



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dermdoc said:

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88Warrior said:

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Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, Hell with flames, Hell with no flames …whatever..call it what you want (and to be honest I don't know myself)…but what I am certain of is that in this "place" we would be without God…whether it's in a burning inferno or cold and lonely place, it matters little when compared to being without His presence…I think we can all agree it's not where we want to be..

---

Eastern Orthodox theology is that we end up all in the presence of God. God's burning love is bliss for believers and torment for non believers.

Whatever happens, I certainly do not believe that God sends anyone to hell. That is why I can not believe in double predestination.

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You don't hold to a lot of Eastern Orthodox theology. You did not even participate in my response in the "Who is a Jew? What is Israel in the New Covenant?" Thread. I'm essentially on the same page with the Eastern Orthodox on that subject. I encourage you to discuss and not drop dud hand grenades.

Be like the Bereans. Search the SCRIPTURES and find if these things are so…

https://stanrock.net/2014/03/18/an-ancient-unsound-argument-in-the-hells-duration-debate/

I'll try to listen to it later.

You do realize, Doc, that the EOC doesn't recognize the book of Revelation the same way that we do.

They also have some differences with what is presented as Scripture before the congregation.

TheGreatEscape said:

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I'll try to listen to it later.

You do realize, Doc, that the EOC doesn't recognize the book of Revelation the same way that we do.

They also have some differences with what is presented as Scripture before the congregation.

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Revelation has been a mystery and interpreted so many ways that I tend to ignore a lot of them.

Not aware that all Reformed churches interpret Revelation the same way.

And you know I am not Reformed or a
Calvinist?

Yeah. You are an universalist, Arminian, dispensationalistic and in an independent autonomous church. Is it evangelical free?

We are going to discover what other effects of universalism has upon our beliefs about God. I alluded to how it distorts the character of God. For God's chief attribute is his holiness.

Now let me ask you this.

Did God create the world out of need or was the Triune God perfectly in an harmonious love bond and perfectly contempt?

Do you believe that God is married to the world?

The world minus God equals nothing.

God minus the world equals God.

Actually I am a Christian universalist which is the tradition of not a few of the saints.

And totally different from an Unitarian Universalist.

Punishment is corrective and just, not retributive.

Did you read my link about Augustine's thoughts on universalism?

And many Christian traditions consider Calvinism, specifically the theologies of limited atonement and double pre destination as heresy.

And I am not the one being "liberal" here. I do not change the simple word "all" or embellish it.

Calvinism is a minority view of the Christian body.

Dermdoc,

You have two options with universalism.

One is ultra-universalism that basically adheres to that everyone who dies goes directly to God and God reverses their choices. That way even a mass murderer goes straight to heaven. This completely annihilates the choices of man., right?

The other view of universalism is that the unbeliever or unregenerate person goes into punishment to pay for his or her sins, which is just another way of saying the person atones for their own sins.

This undermines the perfect atonement of Christ on the cross.

Side point:

Do you really think that people in hades can ever truly atone for just one offense against an infinitely holy God?