I'd agree the standards for Israel are in the gutter. But I hesitate to ever accept that Hamas has actually accepted any ceasefire proposal. We've seen Egypt and other players state what Hamas will accept only to have that rug pulled out. Hamas's goal was a regional war regardless of how many Palestinians were killed. They got that. Israel played into their hands, probably because Bibi wanted that as well.
Gaza Massacre
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Last: 25 days ago by bigtruckguy3500
I can easily defend Israel's actions. Hamas builds their rocket launchers in hospitals, mosques, schools etc knowing that when Israel destroys those launchers there will be collateral damage.barbacoa taco said:
There's a lot of cognitive dissonance when it comes to Israel. People have made up their minds that Israel is the good guy, so any evidence that they may not be the good guy just does not register.
On top of that, any evidence of Israel taking it too far and committing numerous war crimes can always be excused away with "Hamas started it." Which any functioning adult understands is not a justification for every little thing.
But it makes one thing very clear: these same people who defend Israel at every turn, know they can't defend everything they do. Because there's no defending their constant bombings of hospitals, churches, schools, and safe zones. One time is a mistake. Many times is intentional.
The deaths are the fault of the terrorists not the fault of Israel.
and maybe there could be peace in the region if all of these cartoonishly evil governments were ousted
At this point it seems to be a feature rather than a bug. Israel had a very strong labor and peace wing in politics, but that's been obliterated by the second intifada and a surge of population from more right-wing groups including a number of ex-Soviet Jews.
Sadly, this is the most on point observation of the whole conflict
See, it’s pretty easy to understand Hamas’ thinking. https://t.co/FDcFtI3ZC9
— Dave Smith (@ComicDaveSmith) October 1, 2024
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Yeah, the IDF has pretty much swept through or destroyed every hospital in Gaza. Yet they bombed another one last night claiming Hamas was using it as a command center. Remember all those fancy computer animations we saw of the underground command and control hub under the big hospital in Gaza? After they evacuated it and went in, they found a couple AKs, a small tunnel shaft, but that's about it?lobopride said:I can easily defend Israel's actions. Hamas builds their rocket launchers in hospitals, mosques, schools etc knowing that when Israel destroys those launchers there will be collateral damage.barbacoa taco said:
There's a lot of cognitive dissonance when it comes to Israel. People have made up their minds that Israel is the good guy, so any evidence that they may not be the good guy just does not register.
On top of that, any evidence of Israel taking it too far and committing numerous war crimes can always be excused away with "Hamas started it." Which any functioning adult understands is not a justification for every little thing.
But it makes one thing very clear: these same people who defend Israel at every turn, know they can't defend everything they do. Because there's no defending their constant bombings of hospitals, churches, schools, and safe zones. One time is a mistake. Many times is intentional.
The deaths are the fault of the terrorists not the fault of Israel.
It would not surprise me if there were militants at the hospital they bombed last night. If you look at the video, it's possible that the secondary explosions are weapons cooking off, or maybe some could be oxygen tanks. It is just shocking that they would justify killing a few militants by bombing a hospital. That doesn't square up with being the most moral army in the world. Some of the video is pretty horrible to see.
Again, we have seen Israel able to actually carry out strikes with immense precision. Assasinations. Targetted operations. You name it. The amount of destruction in Gaza is, in my opinion, designed to ethnically cleanse the area. Make it so unlivable, that it forcibly displaces as many as possible. And for those that remain, it makes life so horrible that it scars them for life.
Do you support Hamas hiding weapons and terrorists under these facilities? You can't have it both ways.barbacoa taco said:
Do you have any substantive response other than your drive by gotcha attempts?
This conflict did not begin on October 7. Anyone who believes that is ignorant. That's not an insult but the way, just as long as you educate yourself after
How about this, derm: do you support Israel's numerous acts of bombing schools, hospitals, and churches?
Terrorists do this **** all the time and yes, it's a war crime and disgusting. No, it does not justify launching an insane amount of ordinance at the area that you know will wipe out dozens of noncombatants unless there is a REALLY good, really immediate reason to do so.
Sapper Redux said:
I'd agree the standards for Israel are in the gutter. But I hesitate to ever accept that Hamas has actually accepted any ceasefire proposal. We've seen Egypt and other players state what Hamas will accept only to have that rug pulled out. Hamas's goal was a regional war regardless of how many Palestinians were killed. They got that. Israel played into their hands, probably because Bibi wanted that as well.
Hamas actually envisioned a much bigger operation against Israel than the Oct. 7 attack:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/10/12/exclusive-hamas-documents-sinwar-planning-iran/
" Years before the Oct. 7, 2023, attack, Hamas's leaders plotted a far deadlier wave of terrorist assaults against Israel potentially including a Sept. 11-style toppling of a Tel Aviv skyscraper while they pressed Iran to assist in helping achieve their vision of annihilating the Jewish state, according to documents seized by Israeli forces in Gaza.
Electronic records and papers that Israeli officials say were recovered from Hamas command centers show advanced planning for attacks using trains, boats and even horse-drawn chariots though several plans were ill-formed and highly impractical, terrorism experts said. The plans anticipate drawing in allied militant groups for a combined assault against Israel from the north, south and east."
" A more practical target, Hamas believed, was Israel's rail system. The document describes several variations of a plan to use railways to transport fighters and powerful explosives including fuel tankers that could be detonated with small bombs in Israel's largest city. "The railway line is designated for transporting fuel, which is a weak point in the event of a train explosion after moving inside one of the cities (a moving bomb)," it states.
Other plans called for modifying vehicles so they could travel on rails, and turning fishing vessels into high-speed attack boats to carry fighters and explosives into Israeli ports. Referring to the boats-as-bombs plan, the document said Hamas had already "found a mechanism that works."
///
The Israelis committed a classic blunder: having no highly mobile alert force in the region capable of annihilating such attacks, ignoring their own young analysts' intel products and believing that Hamas was incapable of sophisticated low tech operations. Worst of all, fixing hope on a wall to slow down a determined assault is stupidity reminiscent of the Maginot or Bar Lev lines.
Sinwar has made it pretty clear that his own chiliastic inclinations override even the survival of Hamas, much less the survival of Gazans.
I watched young IDF Homefront personnel working in stationary guard positions at multiple locations: they, like young troops everywhere spent inordinate amounts of time on their phones (both male/female) and were victims of normalcy bias from my observations.
OTOH, the Jordanian troops performing similar tasks seemed highly attentive to duties in their respective areas.
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
-Havelock Vetinari
I still wonder why there isn't more outrage directed at Bibi for the intelligence failure on Oct. 7, when Israel has some of the best intelligence in the world.
Just yesterday Israel struck a hospital and a bunch of patients in beds burned alive. I'm very sick of Israel doing abhorrent, indefensible **** like this and then saying "well Hamas was probably there so it's okay."Sapper Redux said:
Terrorists do this **** all the time and yes, it's a war crime and disgusting. No, it does not justify launching an insane amount of ordinance at the area that you know will wipe out dozens of noncombatants unless there is a REALLY good, really immediate reason to do so.
There is no other country that would ever get this kind of benefit of the doubt.
The only people giving them the benefit of the doubt worldwide is the USA. These atrocities are as much on us as they are on Israel. Israel would never be able to act this way regarding Palestinians, military invasions and occupation of Lebanon, and direct attacks on Iran without the US writing them a blank check and promising to start a world war if anyone seriously threatens thembarbacoa taco said:Just yesterday Israel struck a hospital and a bunch of patients in beds burned alive. I'm very sick of Israel doing abhorrent, indefensible **** like this and then saying "well Hamas was probably there so it's okay."Sapper Redux said:
Terrorists do this **** all the time and yes, it's a war crime and disgusting. No, it does not justify launching an insane amount of ordinance at the area that you know will wipe out dozens of noncombatants unless there is a REALLY good, really immediate reason to do so.
There is no other country that would ever get this kind of benefit of the doubt.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Victim blaming...barbacoa taco said:
I still wonder why there isn't more outrage directed at Bibi for the intelligence failure on Oct. 7, when Israel has some of the best intelligence in the world.
Not victim blaming, because Bibi isn't a victim.
Couldnt agree more. It's disgusting.ramblin_ag02 said:The only people giving them the benefit of the doubt worldwide is the USA. These atrocities are as much on us as they are on Israel. Israel would never be able to act this way regarding Palestinians, military invasions and occupation of Lebanon, and direct attacks on Iran without the US writing them a blank check and promising to start a world war if anyone seriously threatens thembarbacoa taco said:Just yesterday Israel struck a hospital and a bunch of patients in beds burned alive. I'm very sick of Israel doing abhorrent, indefensible **** like this and then saying "well Hamas was probably there so it's okay."Sapper Redux said:
Terrorists do this **** all the time and yes, it's a war crime and disgusting. No, it does not justify launching an insane amount of ordinance at the area that you know will wipe out dozens of noncombatants unless there is a REALLY good, really immediate reason to do so.
There is no other country that would ever get this kind of benefit of the doubt.
barbacoa taco said:Just yesterday Israel struck a hospital and a bunch of patients in beds burned alive. I'm very sick of Israel doing abhorrent, indefensible **** like this and then saying "well Hamas was probably there so it's okay."Sapper Redux said:
Terrorists do this **** all the time and yes, it's a war crime and disgusting. No, it does not justify launching an insane amount of ordinance at the area that you know will wipe out dozens of noncombatants unless there is a REALLY good, really immediate reason to do so.
There is no other country that would ever get this kind of benefit of the doubt.
If Hamas/Hezbollah is hiding military assets in these hospitals, which is their MO, I wonder why you are not outraged at the Islamic fundy terrorists who are triggering these attacks. We fire-bombed multiple Axis cities during WW2 with zero outrage. Why is it different when it's Israel?
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
-Havelock Vetinari
It's not different because it's Israel. It's different because we live in a different time.UTExan said:barbacoa taco said:Just yesterday Israel struck a hospital and a bunch of patients in beds burned alive. I'm very sick of Israel doing abhorrent, indefensible **** like this and then saying "well Hamas was probably there so it's okay."Sapper Redux said:
Terrorists do this **** all the time and yes, it's a war crime and disgusting. No, it does not justify launching an insane amount of ordinance at the area that you know will wipe out dozens of noncombatants unless there is a REALLY good, really immediate reason to do so.
There is no other country that would ever get this kind of benefit of the doubt.
If Hamas/Hezbollah is hiding military assets in these hospitals, which is their MO, I wonder why you are not outraged at the Islamic fundy terrorists who are triggering these attacks. We fire-bombed multiple Axis cities during WW2 with zero outrage. Why is it different when it's Israel?
We're outraged when Russia bombs Ukrainian civilian infrastructure, aren't we? The Russians have hit hospitals and ambulances, and gets condemned by the a administration and I'm sure everyone here. Why is Israel different?
Even if there were Hamas fighters in the hospital grounds, or sleeping there, I don't think it justifies the attack. I don't even know if the Nazis attacked hospitals out of suspicion there may be French resistance fighters there.
I don't think Israel has even said what or who was there that justified this attack have they? How high value of a target was there to justify this?
Yeah, and now we've got American boots on the ground to help defend them and act as human shields.
That's what everyone is doing with Gazans. Those 16,000 children deserved it because of a government that gained power before they were even alive.AggieRain said:Victim blaming...barbacoa taco said:
I still wonder why there isn't more outrage directed at Bibi for the intelligence failure on Oct. 7, when Israel has some of the best intelligence in the world.
bigtruckguy3500 said:It's not different because it's Israel. It's different because we live in a different time.UTExan said:barbacoa taco said:Just yesterday Israel struck a hospital and a bunch of patients in beds burned alive. I'm very sick of Israel doing abhorrent, indefensible **** like this and then saying "well Hamas was probably there so it's okay."Sapper Redux said:
Terrorists do this **** all the time and yes, it's a war crime and disgusting. No, it does not justify launching an insane amount of ordinance at the area that you know will wipe out dozens of noncombatants unless there is a REALLY good, really immediate reason to do so.
There is no other country that would ever get this kind of benefit of the doubt.
If Hamas/Hezbollah is hiding military assets in these hospitals, which is their MO, I wonder why you are not outraged at the Islamic fundy terrorists who are triggering these attacks. We fire-bombed multiple Axis cities during WW2 with zero outrage. Why is it different when it's Israel?
We're outraged when Russia bombs Ukrainian civilian infrastructure, aren't we? The Russians have hit hospitals and ambulances, and gets condemned by the a administration and I'm sure everyone here. Why is Israel different?
Even if there were Hamas fighters in the hospital grounds, or sleeping there, I don't think it justifies the attack. I don't even know if the Nazis attacked hospitals out of suspicion there may be French resistance fighters there.
I don't think Israel has even said what or who was there that justified this attack have they? How high value of a target was there to justify this?
No, we don't. The world is mostly silent on Chinese genocide of Tibetans and Uighurs, silent on our own mass killings of civilians in Iraq during our wars there, silent on multiple African atrocities against the citizens of that continent by rebels and Governments. The only widespread moral outrage is somehow reserved for Israel.
I've been there (West Bank) , seen the checkpoints and the wall. It exists because 2 intifadas resulted in over 1,000 Israelis being murdered in shootings, stabbings and suicide bombings. The alternative is to tear it down and let the Palestinians and the Israeli extremists have a go at each other. If you want to be outraged at Israel, be outraged over their failure to protect Palestinians in the West Bank from settler trespassing and violence.
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
-Havelock Vetinari
A couple thoughts.
I know I, as well as others, have posted on this board about Chinese persecution of not only Uighurs, but of Christians in China. I never said anything about Tibet though.
Plenty of people have spoken up about things in Africa. I mean, I remember the whole Kony 2012 campaign for one. Let's not forget Apartheid South Africa.
And obviously the US seems to be condemning Russian attacks on civilians.
Often times, might becomes right. We can't fight China. We can't fight Russia. The sad reality is few care much about Africa because they view Africans as less valuable than others, or they have no resources for us. Palestinians and Arabs, of multiple religions, have spread throughout the world as refugees and have a relatively large voice that alows them to have more influence about bringing the Israel-Palestinian issue to the forefront.
Another issue here is that the US is bankrolling one, and not the others. It is our tax dollars being spent on bombs that are landing in hospitals. The bombs we supplied have killed 16000 children.
But, regardless. Is your argument that "others get to commit atrocities unchecked, so Israel should be allowed to do the same?" Or is it that "We need to bring as much scrutiny to atrocities commited by others as people do towards what Israel does?" Or neither?
Also, posted an NPR link above about the Westbank and a school teacher getting attacked infront of her students, and recorded. Certain individuals don't want to see things that don't fit (or come from sources that support) their world view.
And for those that aren't familiar with what UTexan is talking about in the West Bank, here's a somewhat comedic yet still sad take on the issue:
I know I, as well as others, have posted on this board about Chinese persecution of not only Uighurs, but of Christians in China. I never said anything about Tibet though.
Plenty of people have spoken up about things in Africa. I mean, I remember the whole Kony 2012 campaign for one. Let's not forget Apartheid South Africa.
And obviously the US seems to be condemning Russian attacks on civilians.
Often times, might becomes right. We can't fight China. We can't fight Russia. The sad reality is few care much about Africa because they view Africans as less valuable than others, or they have no resources for us. Palestinians and Arabs, of multiple religions, have spread throughout the world as refugees and have a relatively large voice that alows them to have more influence about bringing the Israel-Palestinian issue to the forefront.
Another issue here is that the US is bankrolling one, and not the others. It is our tax dollars being spent on bombs that are landing in hospitals. The bombs we supplied have killed 16000 children.
But, regardless. Is your argument that "others get to commit atrocities unchecked, so Israel should be allowed to do the same?" Or is it that "We need to bring as much scrutiny to atrocities commited by others as people do towards what Israel does?" Or neither?
Also, posted an NPR link above about the Westbank and a school teacher getting attacked infront of her students, and recorded. Certain individuals don't want to see things that don't fit (or come from sources that support) their world view.
And for those that aren't familiar with what UTexan is talking about in the West Bank, here's a somewhat comedic yet still sad take on the issue:
bigtruckguy3500 said:
That's what everyone is doing with Gazans. Those 16,000 children deserved it because of a government that gained power before they were even alive.
At the end of WW2, it had been 12 years since Germany had had an election. Should we have spared the Hitler Youth, some of which who were unofficially serving in the Volkssturm? Or what about a typical 20-something soldier who had been too young to vote in 1933?
Yes. 100%. If it is at all possible to spare a child's life in your self defense, you should do what you can to do so. Those children were forced into service as children. Some were brainwashed. But they were still children. Now if one of them comes after you with a gun, I'm not saying die to let them live. But if they're, you know, cowering in a hospital, or a tent encampment, that they were told would be a safe zone, you know it might be a good idea not to bomb them.BonfireNerd04 said:bigtruckguy3500 said:
That's what everyone is doing with Gazans. Those 16,000 children deserved it because of a government that gained power before they were even alive.
At the end of WW2, it had been 12 years since Germany had had an election. Should we have spared the Hitler Youth, some of which who were unofficially serving in the Volkssturm? Or what about a typical 20-something soldier who had been too young to vote in 1933?
French Catholic priest and genocide researcher Father Patrick Desbois:
" After a recent tour of Gaza border communities devastated by the October 7, 2023, Hamas onslaught, pioneering Holocaust researcher Father Patrick Desbois said the Jewish state should bring the terrorists to trial."
"We have to show the crimes, but we [also] have to name the criminals," said Desbois. "Without criminals, you have no crimes," Desbois told The Times of Israel after returning home to France."
"An internationally acclaimed expert on identifying modern-day genocide, the French-Catholic priest was in Israel to commemorate the Hamas massacre on October 7, 2023, in which 1,200 Israelis were murdered and 251 people taken into captivity."
" Given his expertise in mass murder, Desbois said he is outraged by allegations that Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinians of Gaza.
"I think the accusation of genocide is [anti-Israel] propaganda. Why does nobody ask if Bashar Assad in Damascus has committed genocide against his own people," said Desbois."
" Some of the evidence collected by Desbois in Iraq has been used in Belgium to prosecute Islamist militants after they return to Europe. He recorded numerous examples of Islamic State members indoctrinating boys as young as seven into terrorism, as well as young girls sold into slavery more than two dozen times each."
(Note: one enslaved Yazidi girl was recently freed by the Israelis in Gaza and returned to her family in Iraq. She had been sold by ISIS to a Palestinian man.)
" During a slew of meetings in Israel, Desbois urged officials to apply some of the lessons he's learned in 25 years of investigations. Examples include identifying and naming perpetrators in public forums, as well as examining the motivations of "the neighbors," a term Desbois uses to refer to bystanders and eyewitnesses."
https://www.timesofisrael.com/pioneering-genocide-researcher-father-desbois-denounces-mass-murder-charges-against-israel/
" After a recent tour of Gaza border communities devastated by the October 7, 2023, Hamas onslaught, pioneering Holocaust researcher Father Patrick Desbois said the Jewish state should bring the terrorists to trial."
"We have to show the crimes, but we [also] have to name the criminals," said Desbois. "Without criminals, you have no crimes," Desbois told The Times of Israel after returning home to France."
"An internationally acclaimed expert on identifying modern-day genocide, the French-Catholic priest was in Israel to commemorate the Hamas massacre on October 7, 2023, in which 1,200 Israelis were murdered and 251 people taken into captivity."
" Given his expertise in mass murder, Desbois said he is outraged by allegations that Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinians of Gaza.
"I think the accusation of genocide is [anti-Israel] propaganda. Why does nobody ask if Bashar Assad in Damascus has committed genocide against his own people," said Desbois."
" Some of the evidence collected by Desbois in Iraq has been used in Belgium to prosecute Islamist militants after they return to Europe. He recorded numerous examples of Islamic State members indoctrinating boys as young as seven into terrorism, as well as young girls sold into slavery more than two dozen times each."
(Note: one enslaved Yazidi girl was recently freed by the Israelis in Gaza and returned to her family in Iraq. She had been sold by ISIS to a Palestinian man.)
" During a slew of meetings in Israel, Desbois urged officials to apply some of the lessons he's learned in 25 years of investigations. Examples include identifying and naming perpetrators in public forums, as well as examining the motivations of "the neighbors," a term Desbois uses to refer to bystanders and eyewitnesses."
https://www.timesofisrael.com/pioneering-genocide-researcher-father-desbois-denounces-mass-murder-charges-against-israel/
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
-Havelock Vetinari
Sounds good. Take them to trial. But you're also going to have to allow journalists into Gaza to see the devastation caused there, and bring the IDF to trial as well. I mean, an IDF prison guard sodomized a Palestinian prisoner, while his fellow guards blocked the camera. He has been on national TV giving interviews and even celebrated by some.
Also, I'm not saying it's a genocide. But it does appear to be an attempt at ethnic cleansing. Regardless, there are other people who do research on genocides and stuff that would disagree with this person you posted.
Also, I'm not saying it's a genocide. But it does appear to be an attempt at ethnic cleansing. Regardless, there are other people who do research on genocides and stuff that would disagree with this person you posted.
bigtruckguy3500 said:
Sounds good. Take them to trial. But you're also going to have to allow journalists into Gaza to see the devastation caused there, and bring the IDF to trial as well. I mean, an IDF prison guard sodomized a Palestinian prisoner, while his fellow guards blocked the camera. He has been on national TV giving interviews and even celebrated by some.
Also, I'm not saying it's a genocide. But it does appear to be an attempt at ethnic cleansing. Regardless, there are other people who do research on genocides and stuff that would disagree with this person you posted.
Yes. Israel needs to hold its own people accountable for criminal conduct. Especially in the West Bank where Jews must live with Arabs.
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
-Havelock Vetinari
Agreed. I think the issue, and what upsets a lot of people, is that it doesn't seem to happen. We hear "there will be an investigation." Then that's it. Meanwhile we see the IDF actually escorting and protecting the extremists and violent settlers as they steal land, or harass Arabs (Christians/Muslims/others). If you do a deep dive on YouTube, you'll see a ton of appalling examples of what appears to be harassment/ethnic cleaning of land in the West Bank that may not be officially state sponsored, but is enabled by the government there.