When the Allies were bombing Germany in WW2, we didn't check to see which households actually voted for Hitler.barbacoa taco said:
But it's a fallacy to blame Gazans for Hamas being in power. It's like blaming all American adults today for electing Bush in 2004.
Gaza Massacre
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Last: 25 days ago by bigtruckguy3500
Most of America's Bombing campaign did try to avoid civilian deaths. Only very late in the war, primarily at the behest of Roosevelt and Churchill, was the 8th Air Force ordered to do "punitive" raids against Berlin and Dresden.
It's a myth that there is a substantial resistance to Hamas among gazans. There is zero evidence for such a falsehood, in reality. They happily send their kids to the hate-filled UNRWA schools for indoctrination and breed as much as possible to, as Arafat said, 'use the wombs of their women' as their greatest weapons.barbacoa taco said:
But it's a fallacy to blame Gazans for Hamas being in power. It's like blaming all American adults today for electing Bush in 2004.
Also there's the issue of intent. Some military operations are intended to seek out Hamas terrorists. Others are simply intended for cruelty and ethnic cleansing.
If there were a broader interest toward peace, the PA and Qatari's etc. wouldn't offer lifetime housing/annuities to the families of suicide bombers/terrorists.
There was a cease fire on Oct 6. Hamas decided in favor of bloodshed and other evil atrocities.
Also, I agree with OP...Lord have mercy.
Also, I agree with OP...Lord have mercy.
BTW, I see that OP hasn't posted anything in over a month. Did he get permabanned for antisemitic hate speech?
I know everyone has pretty much made up their mind about this conflict, who to support, and who deserves what. But this thread crossed my mind. Figured I'd drop an update.
Current counts are
42,227 killed in Gaza (1.9% of Gaza's pre war population)
16,765 children
10,000+ additional that missing (possibly dead, under rubble, etc.)
To put the death toll into perspective. If 1.9% of the US population was killed, that would be 6.3 million people, including 2.5 million children.
https://www.npr.org/2024/10/10/nx-s1-5132084/how-a-year-of-war-in-gaza-has-spilled-into-the-west-bank?
Current counts are
42,227 killed in Gaza (1.9% of Gaza's pre war population)
16,765 children
10,000+ additional that missing (possibly dead, under rubble, etc.)
To put the death toll into perspective. If 1.9% of the US population was killed, that would be 6.3 million people, including 2.5 million children.
https://www.npr.org/2024/10/10/nx-s1-5132084/how-a-year-of-war-in-gaza-has-spilled-into-the-west-bank?
Who started it?
How many Japanese did we kill after they started it? And I am not making light of any of this. But you reap what you sow.
War is horrible.
How many Japanese did we kill after they started it? And I am not making light of any of this. But you reap what you sow.
War is horrible.
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I see you've picked your side. That's fine. The irony here is I think you're catholic and prolife, right? At the very least I would've expected you to be horrified by 16000 children dead. I'm sure you've got a mental justification for your condoning this much death and destruction and that's between you and God.
Israel claims to be a moral army, and obviously can put a missile precisely almost anywhere it wants. Yet they intentionally bomb a "safe zone" full of refugees in tents in the middle of the nights? I don't know how many terrorists they thought they were killing, but what's the calculus that justifies these actions? Are killing civlians and children ok when it's "them" but not "us"? Lebanon is 1/3 Christian, and there are actually a decent number of Christians there that support Hezbollah (which is odd to me). While most American Christians don't care about the suffering of Palestinian Christians, I wonder if this war expands to Lebanon (Netanyahu is already threatening Gaza like destruction to Beirut), if they'll support the Christians there.
.
https://apnews.com/article/lebanon-israel-war-hezbollah-religious-divisions-c512a65437d035d28d1cb3d84de3292c
Israel claims to be a moral army, and obviously can put a missile precisely almost anywhere it wants. Yet they intentionally bomb a "safe zone" full of refugees in tents in the middle of the nights? I don't know how many terrorists they thought they were killing, but what's the calculus that justifies these actions? Are killing civlians and children ok when it's "them" but not "us"? Lebanon is 1/3 Christian, and there are actually a decent number of Christians there that support Hezbollah (which is odd to me). While most American Christians don't care about the suffering of Palestinian Christians, I wonder if this war expands to Lebanon (Netanyahu is already threatening Gaza like destruction to Beirut), if they'll support the Christians there.
.
https://apnews.com/article/lebanon-israel-war-hezbollah-religious-divisions-c512a65437d035d28d1cb3d84de3292c
I am not Catholic but am pro life.bigtruckguy3500 said:
I see you've picked your side. That's fine. The irony here is I think you're catholic and prolife, right? At the very least I would've expected you to be horrified by 16000 children dead. I'm sure you've got a mental justification for your condoning this much death and destruction and that's between you and God.
Israel claims to be a moral army, and obviously can put a missile precisely almost anywhere it wants. Yet they intentionally bomb a "safe zone" full of refugees in tents in the middle of the nights? I don't know how many terrorists they thought they were killing, but what's the calculus that justifies these actions? Are killing civlians and children ok when it's "them" but not "us"? Lebanon is 1/3 Christian, and there are actually a decent number of Christians there that support Hezbollah (which is odd to me). While most American Christians don't care about the suffering of Palestinian Christians, I wonder if this war expands to Lebanon (Netanyahu is already threatening Gaza like destruction to Beirut), if they'll support the Christians there.
.
https://apnews.com/article/lebanon-israel-war-hezbollah-religious-divisions-c512a65437d035d28d1cb3d84de3292c
Israel is at fault if it targeted children.
But none of this would have happened if Hamas had not initiated conflict. To me, their actions are ultimately responsible for any Palestinian deaths. Or Lebanese deaths. Or Israeli deaths.
And comparing this to abortion is disingenuous in my opinion. These deaths are in the scope of war and military action initiated against the Israelis.
An abortion is when a MOTHER kills an innocent baby. Apples and oranges.
And have you picked a side?
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There is no good side here. Only tragedy.
Completely agree. But somebody started it. And now we have needless killing by both sides. And thenrepunw and dems are both trying to gain political advantage from this tragedy.swimmerbabe11 said:
There is no good side here. Only tragedy.
Shameful.
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It's a bit disingenous to be ok with the wanton disregard for the lives of children but then claim to be against them being killed prior to birth. If you only care about the mother killing them in the womb then I'm assuming you wouldn't charge a man with murder if he kicked a woman in the belly and caused a miscarriage? Hundreds of children in Gaza have been killed under the age of 1.
Yes, my side is nuanced. I fully support the targetting of Hamas and self defense. I do not support the complete disregard for life and collective punishment being imposed on Palestinians.
Did you listen to the NPR link I posted above? It's about Settlers attacking schools and such in the West Bank. The West Bank did not start anything on Oct 7. But the IDF defends the settlers during these attacks. The go into a classroom and beat the teacher. And the IDF does nothing. It's pure thuggery. Christians in the West Bank are also being forced from their homes.
Israel will always do an investigation and claim they never targetted children. Doctors there have said they've seen plenty of children with GSWs to the head or torso.
Yes, my side is nuanced. I fully support the targetting of Hamas and self defense. I do not support the complete disregard for life and collective punishment being imposed on Palestinians.
Did you listen to the NPR link I posted above? It's about Settlers attacking schools and such in the West Bank. The West Bank did not start anything on Oct 7. But the IDF defends the settlers during these attacks. The go into a classroom and beat the teacher. And the IDF does nothing. It's pure thuggery. Christians in the West Bank are also being forced from their homes.
Israel will always do an investigation and claim they never targetted children. Doctors there have said they've seen plenty of children with GSWs to the head or torso.
bigtruckguy3500 said:
It's a bit disingenous to be ok with the wanton disregard for the lives of children but then claim to be against them being killed prior to birth. If you only care about the mother killing them in the womb then I'm assuming you wouldn't charge a man with murder if he kicked a woman in the belly and caused a miscarriage? Hundreds of children in Gaza have been killed under the age of 1.
Yes, my side is nuanced. I fully support the targetting of Hamas and self defense. I do not support the complete disregard for life and collective punishment being imposed on Palestinians.
Did you listen to the NPR link I posted above? It's about Settlers attacking schools and such in the West Bank. The West Bank did not start anything on Oct 7. But the IDF defends the settlers during these attacks. The go into a classroom and beat the teacher. And the IDF does nothing. It's pure thuggery. Christians in the West Bank are also being forced from their homes.
Israel will always do an investigation and claim they never targetted children. Doctors there have said they've seen plenty of children with GSWs to the head or torso.
Sorry I do not listen to NPR. I agree with you on how horrible this is. But Hamas started it and I am not sure why.
And because I think abortion is more despicable than innocent lives lost in war initiated by Hamas does not mean I have a wanton disregard for any deaths. And in your example, the man who caused a miscarriage by trauma would be arrested. Only a mother can kill a baby with no repercussions.
I honestly do not know why the abortion deaths do not bother people if children deatjs in war do.
I believe Hamas is responsible for all deaths and injuries in this war.
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'My side is nuanced but I listen to NPR' is a new one for me.
If you really think this then you need to open a history book. This conflict did NOT begin on October 7, 2023. That was an escalation of a decades long conflict.dermdoc said:bigtruckguy3500 said:
It's a bit disingenous to be ok with the wanton disregard for the lives of children but then claim to be against them being killed prior to birth. If you only care about the mother killing them in the womb then I'm assuming you wouldn't charge a man with murder if he kicked a woman in the belly and caused a miscarriage? Hundreds of children in Gaza have been killed under the age of 1.
Yes, my side is nuanced. I fully support the targetting of Hamas and self defense. I do not support the complete disregard for life and collective punishment being imposed on Palestinians.
Did you listen to the NPR link I posted above? It's about Settlers attacking schools and such in the West Bank. The West Bank did not start anything on Oct 7. But the IDF defends the settlers during these attacks. The go into a classroom and beat the teacher. And the IDF does nothing. It's pure thuggery. Christians in the West Bank are also being forced from their homes.
Israel will always do an investigation and claim they never targetted children. Doctors there have said they've seen plenty of children with GSWs to the head or torso.
Sorry I do not listen to NPR. I agree with you on how horrible this is. But Hamas started it and I am not sure why.
And because I think abortion is more despicable than innocent lives lost in war initiated by Hamas does not mean I have a wanton disregard for any deaths. And in your example, the man who caused a miscarriage by trauma would be arrested. Only a mother can kill a baby with no repercussions.
I honestly do not know why the abortion deaths do not bother people if children deatjs in war do.
I believe Hamas is responsible for all deaths and injuries in this war.
It's also very disingenuous to turn the other way as Israel commits so many war crimes, including bombing hospitals, doing missile strike at schools that were designated as safe zones, and eliminating entire families without blinking an eye. No, you cannot "blame Hamas" for all of this. How ridiculous to excuse the evil acts of Israel that way. We don't treat ANY other country that way. International law exists for exactly this reason.
I do wonder at what point will Americans who support Israel finally say enough. Being attacked does not give you carte blanche to kill as many civilians as you want. But they continue to do so and all these so-called "pro life" Christians look the other way and do not care, and nothing will make them care, ever.
Lots of words. We all know who started this current episode of this on going idiocity. It was not the Israelis, That is a fact.barbacoa taco said:If you really think this then you need to open a history book. This conflict did NOT begin on October 7, 2023. That was an escalation of a decades long conflict.dermdoc said:bigtruckguy3500 said:
It's a bit disingenous to be ok with the wanton disregard for the lives of children but then claim to be against them being killed prior to birth. If you only care about the mother killing them in the womb then I'm assuming you wouldn't charge a man with murder if he kicked a woman in the belly and caused a miscarriage? Hundreds of children in Gaza have been killed under the age of 1.
Yes, my side is nuanced. I fully support the targetting of Hamas and self defense. I do not support the complete disregard for life and collective punishment being imposed on Palestinians.
Did you listen to the NPR link I posted above? It's about Settlers attacking schools and such in the West Bank. The West Bank did not start anything on Oct 7. But the IDF defends the settlers during these attacks. The go into a classroom and beat the teacher. And the IDF does nothing. It's pure thuggery. Christians in the West Bank are also being forced from their homes.
Israel will always do an investigation and claim they never targetted children. Doctors there have said they've seen plenty of children with GSWs to the head or torso.
Sorry I do not listen to NPR. I agree with you on how horrible this is. But Hamas started it and I am not sure why.
And because I think abortion is more despicable than innocent lives lost in war initiated by Hamas does not mean I have a wanton disregard for any deaths. And in your example, the man who caused a miscarriage by trauma would be arrested. Only a mother can kill a baby with no repercussions.
I honestly do not know why the abortion deaths do not bother people if children deatjs in war do.
I believe Hamas is responsible for all deaths and injuries in this war.
It's also very disingenuous to turn the other way as Israel commits so many war crimes, including bombing hospitals, doing missile strike at schools that were designated as safe zones, and eliminating entire families without blinking an eye. No, you cannot "blame Hamas" for all of this. How ridiculous to excuse the evil acts of Israel that way. We don't treat ANY other country that way. International law exists for exactly this reason.
I do wonder at what point will Americans who support Israel finally say enough. Being attacked does not give you carte blanche to kill as many civilians as you want. But they continue to do so and all these so-called "pro life" Christians look the other way and do not care, and nothing will make them care, ever.
And when Pear Harbor happened, what was America supposed to do?
So you really believe the Israelis are the bad guys here? Who started this whole deal?
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As you acknowledge, none of what Israel is doing now is about Oct 7. It's about genocide and ethnic cleansing. Kill civilians indiscriminately, destroy the hospitals and schools and infrastructure so society cannot function, cut off food and water, take people's homes and land by simply marching inside and claiming it belongs to them, make life completely unbearable and unlivable for Palestinians so that they as an ethnic group "die off" within a generation. Some people believe it's only a genocide if you kill every single person. Not so. This is how it happens in reality.Quote:
Yes, my side is nuanced. I fully support the targetting of Hamas and self defense. I do not support the complete disregard for life and collective punishment being imposed on Palestinians.
Did you listen to the NPR link I posted above? It's about Settlers attacking schools and such in the West Bank. The West Bank did not start anything on Oct 7. But the IDF defends the settlers during these attacks. The go into a classroom and beat the teacher. And the IDF does nothing. It's pure thuggery. Christians in the West Bank are also being forced from their homes.
Israel will always do an investigation and claim they never targetted children. Doctors there have said they've seen plenty of children with GSWs to the head or torso.
Of course, Israel tries to defend it all by saying anyone who they kill is probably Hamas.
Who started this whole thing?barbacoa taco said:As you acknowledge, none of what Israel is doing now is about Oct 7. It's about genocide and ethnic cleansing. Kill civilians indiscriminately, destroy the hospitals and schools and infrastructure so society cannot function, cut off food and water, take people's homes and land by simply marching inside and claiming it belongs to them, make life completely unbearable and unlivable for Palestinians so that they as an ethnic group "die off" within a generation. Some people believe it's only a genocide if you kill every single person. Not so. This is how it happens in reality.Quote:
Yes, my side is nuanced. I fully support the targetting of Hamas and self defense. I do not support the complete disregard for life and collective punishment being imposed on Palestinians.
Did you listen to the NPR link I posted above? It's about Settlers attacking schools and such in the West Bank. The West Bank did not start anything on Oct 7. But the IDF defends the settlers during these attacks. The go into a classroom and beat the teacher. And the IDF does nothing. It's pure thuggery. Christians in the West Bank are also being forced from their homes.
Israel will always do an investigation and claim they never targetted children. Doctors there have said they've seen plenty of children with GSWs to the head or torso.
Of course, Israel tries to defend it all by saying anyone who they kill is probably Hamas.
And can you post links where any Israeli source said anything about ethic cleansing?
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Where did I say Israel had no right to respond?
And if the USA went over to Japan and started bombing hospitals and schools and starving the people I'd say that's wrong. And I know we dropped 2 bombs on them, which I also have issues with, but that's neither here nor there.
Israel has had many opportunities for a ceasefire deal with the return of hostages and made no effort to make that happen. It's because Bibi does not care about the hostages. He cares about ethnically cleansing the Palestinians from the land and taking Gaza and the West Bank, and now clearly part of Lebanon.
Why is it so hard to just admit that Israel has taken things too far? I thought every decent person could agree that even if you are the victim of an attack, killing thousands more in return is not an appropriate response?
And if the USA went over to Japan and started bombing hospitals and schools and starving the people I'd say that's wrong. And I know we dropped 2 bombs on them, which I also have issues with, but that's neither here nor there.
Israel has had many opportunities for a ceasefire deal with the return of hostages and made no effort to make that happen. It's because Bibi does not care about the hostages. He cares about ethnically cleansing the Palestinians from the land and taking Gaza and the West Bank, and now clearly part of Lebanon.
Why is it so hard to just admit that Israel has taken things too far? I thought every decent person could agree that even if you are the victim of an attack, killing thousands more in return is not an appropriate response?
Who started it?barbacoa taco said:
Where did I say Israel had no right to respond?
And if the USA went over to Japan and started bombing hospitals and schools and starving the people I'd say that's wrong. And I know we dropped 2 bombs on them, which I also have issues with, but that's neither here nor there.
Israel has had many opportunities for a ceasefire deal with the return of hostages and made no effort to make that happen. It's because Bibi does not care about the hostages. He cares about ethnically cleansing the Palestinians from the land and taking Gaza and the West Bank, and now clearly part of Lebanon.
Why is it so hard to just admit that Israel has taken things too far? I thought every decent person could agree that even if you are the victim of an attack, killing thousands more in return is not an appropriate response?
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Do you have any substantive response other than your drive by gotcha attempts?
This conflict did not begin on October 7. Anyone who believes that is ignorant. That's not an insult but the way, just as long as you educate yourself after
How about this, derm: do you support Israel's numerous acts of bombing schools, hospitals, and churches?
This conflict did not begin on October 7. Anyone who believes that is ignorant. That's not an insult but the way, just as long as you educate yourself after
How about this, derm: do you support Israel's numerous acts of bombing schools, hospitals, and churches?
No drive by. Simple yes or no answer. Libs hate that.barbacoa taco said:
Do you have any substantive response other than your drive by gotcha attempts?
This conflict did not begin on October 7. Anyone who believes that is ignorant. That's not an insult but the way, just as long as you educate yourself after
How about this, derm: do you support Israel's numerous acts of bombing schools, hospitals, and churches?
And the ad Homs are predictable.
I am ignorant. This conflict began on October 7th.
And do you agree with what Hamas did that day?
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Fine then, I'll give you what you want.
Hamas started the current conflict.
So does that make it okay to bomb hospitals, schools, and churches, and take out entire families?
Hamas started the current conflict.
So does that make it okay to bomb hospitals, schools, and churches, and take out entire families?
No, I am always against killing innocent people. Are you?Quote:
And do you agree with what Hamas did that day?
I've noticed a trend. Anytime Israel's evil acts are called out, the response is always "Hamas started it."
"They started it" is the logic of a child.
Goo goo.barbacoa taco said:No, I am always against killing innocent people. Are you?Quote:
And do you agree with what Hamas did that day?
I've noticed a trend. Anytime Israel's evil acts are called out, the response is always "Hamas started it."
"They started it" is the logic of a child.
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Would any of that had happened if Hamas had not started it?barbacoa taco said:
Fine then, I'll give you what you want.
Hamas started the current conflict.
So does that make it okay to bomb hospitals, schools, and churches, and take out entire families?
But since I am a child, I guess I can not critically think.
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maybe you find all of this oh so hilarious. I don't.
Here's a story of something that happened today.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5y8zj8qrn5o
Again, I dont think it's very pro life to crack jokes, victim blame, and make excuses for things like this.
Here's a story of something that happened today.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5y8zj8qrn5o
Quote:
An Israeli attack on a school used to shelter displaced Palestinians has killed at least 15 people in central Gaza, officials say.
A civil defence spokesman said the attack on al-Mufti school, where hundreds of displaced people from around Gaza were sheltering, had injured at least 50 people and more than a dozen were killed.
Pretty sure these kids weren't Hamas.Quote:
The five children in northern Gaza were reportedly killed in an Israeli air strike while playing on a street corner in al-Shati camp.
Graphic images from the scene in the aftermath show the bloodied bodies of what appeared to be young teenage boys.
One of them looked to be clutching several glass marbles in his hand.
According to a report from the scene, told to a BBC correspondent, a drone strike hit a person walking down the street, which killed the children and injured seven other people.
Later images showed the bodies of the five boys wrapped in white shrouds and laid out on the floor side-by-side.
Again, I dont think it's very pro life to crack jokes, victim blame, and make excuses for things like this.
You're definitely not making the case that you can.dermdoc said:Would any of that had happened if Hamas had not started it?barbacoa taco said:
Fine then, I'll give you what you want.
Hamas started the current conflict.
So does that make it okay to bomb hospitals, schools, and churches, and take out entire families?
But since I am a child, I guess I can not critically think.
Who started it? Why are those kids dead? This is not a hard question.barbacoa taco said:You're definitely not making the case that you can.dermdoc said:Would any of that had happened if Hamas had not started it?barbacoa taco said:
Fine then, I'll give you what you want.
Hamas started the current conflict.
So does that make it okay to bomb hospitals, schools, and churches, and take out entire families?
But since I am a child, I guess I can not critically think.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
barbacoa taco said:
Where did I say Israel had no right to respond?
And if the USA went over to Japan and started bombing hospitals and schools and starving the people I'd say that's wrong. And I know we dropped 2 bombs on them, which I also have issues with, but that's neither here nor there.
Israel has had many opportunities for a ceasefire deal with the return of hostages and made no effort to make that happen. It's because Bibi does not care about the hostages. He cares about ethnically cleansing the Palestinians from the land and taking Gaza and the West Bank, and now clearly part of Lebanon.
Why is it so hard to just admit that Israel has taken things too far? I thought every decent person could agree that even if you are the victim of an attack, killing thousands more in return is not an appropriate response?
Heck of a lot of suppositions there. A cease fire takes two to agree. The fact that they didn't happen is as much on Hamas as on Israel. Both sides had things the other wanted that they couldn't agree to. But you act as if Israel should just capitulate to the demands of Hamas. Somehow I don't think "hey we attacked you, but now that you are kicking our butt, we should stop fighting and you should leave so we can rebuild and plan our next attack without interference" is a smart deal for Israel.
Was listening to the advisory opinion podcast where they were talking to a federal judge who was part of a judicial delegation to Israel. His comments were interesting.
Israel makes considerable effort to give advance notice of where they will be fighting the next day to give time for the civilians to move out of the way. Can you think of any other military in the world that would broadcast their battle plan to the enemy?
Detailed the lawyer review of every airstrike, giving a go/no go based on the surrounding area in real time.
Israel also provides a lot of food (3000 cal per day) to people in the camps in northern Gaza. Kind of an odd thing to do if you are trying to kill them.
That said, it is war. Mistakes are made. Plenty of friendly fire casualties in American history, or do you think the US makes a habit of intentionally targeting its own soldiers?
Also, if we want to talk about the Geneva Convention and/or war crimes, hiding ammo supplies and command centers under schools/hospitals is a violation. Running around blending in with the civilian population by not wearing uniforms (except when potentially on TV) is a violation. Targeting civilians (such as on Oct 7, 2023) is a violation.
barbacoa taco said:
maybe you find all of this oh so hilarious. I don't.
Here's a story of something that happened today.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5y8zj8qrn5oQuote:
An Israeli attack on a school used to shelter displaced Palestinians has killed at least 15 people in central Gaza, officials say.
A civil defence spokesman said the attack on al-Mufti school, where hundreds of displaced people from around Gaza were sheltering, had injured at least 50 people and more than a dozen were killed.Pretty sure these kids weren't Hamas.Quote:
The five children in northern Gaza were reportedly killed in an Israeli air strike while playing on a street corner in al-Shati camp.
Graphic images from the scene in the aftermath show the bloodied bodies of what appeared to be young teenage boys.
One of them looked to be clutching several glass marbles in his hand.
According to a report from the scene, told to a BBC correspondent, a drone strike hit a person walking down the street, which killed the children and injured seven other people.
Later images showed the bodies of the five boys wrapped in white shrouds and laid out on the floor side-by-side.
Again, I dont think it's very pro life to crack jokes, victim blame, and make excuses for things like this.
We don't have enough information to make any sort of judgment based on this news story.
There are way too many variables.
An obvious one is whether or not Hamas was using the children as shields like they've done countless times before.
Interestingly enough, not sure if you're aware, but the Israelis have used Palestinians as human shields. They've strapped them to the hood of their vehicles, used them to walk in front of them, and such things. In fact it was such a prevalent thing that the Israeli supreme court had to make a ruling against it (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/israel)lobopride said:
An obvious one is whether or not Hamas was using the children as shields like they've done countless times before.
Also, ironically, they were complaining about Iran targeting the Mossad HQ which in a relatively populated area. Would seem they should have placed it in a more remote area.
So, as a physician I suspect you understand that everything isn't black and white. Your choosing not to listen to/read/watch something that doesn't agree with your preformed opinions is kind of unexpected. Problem with this country right now is an inability to step outside our comfort zones and echo chambers and take in other viewpoints, and a lack of critical thinking that tries to distill everything down into black/white or us vs them.dermdoc said:No drive by. Simple yes or no answer. Libs hate that.barbacoa taco said:
Do you have any substantive response other than your drive by gotcha attempts?
This conflict did not begin on October 7. Anyone who believes that is ignorant. That's not an insult but the way, just as long as you educate yourself after
How about this, derm: do you support Israel's numerous acts of bombing schools, hospitals, and churches?
And the ad Homs are predictable.
I am ignorant. This conflict began on October 7th.
And do you agree with what Hamas did that day?
The world is full technicolor, and binary thinking works for the simple things in life. It does not work for the more complex things.
I think the goal of message boards like this isn't to win an argument, but to discuss view points and share and understand different perspectives. Unfortunately most of TexAgs is an echochamber, so I get how it can be hard to step outside that.
There's a lot of cognitive dissonance when it comes to Israel. People have made up their minds that Israel is the good guy, so any evidence that they may not be the good guy just does not register.
On top of that, any evidence of Israel taking it too far and committing numerous war crimes can always be excused away with "Hamas started it." Which any functioning adult understands is not a justification for every little thing.
But it makes one thing very clear: these same people who defend Israel at every turn, know they can't defend everything they do. Because there's no defending their constant bombings of hospitals, churches, schools, and safe zones. One time is a mistake. Many times is intentional.
On top of that, any evidence of Israel taking it too far and committing numerous war crimes can always be excused away with "Hamas started it." Which any functioning adult understands is not a justification for every little thing.
But it makes one thing very clear: these same people who defend Israel at every turn, know they can't defend everything they do. Because there's no defending their constant bombings of hospitals, churches, schools, and safe zones. One time is a mistake. Many times is intentional.
Hamas accepted a ceasefire deal that Israel had signaled they would accept, earlier this year. But once Hamas accepted it, Israel threw in a bunch more terms in there they knew would make the deal fall through. Because it was never about the hostages. It is in Bibi's interest to keep this war going for as long as possible. Partly to destroy Palestinian land and take it for Israel (and maybe expand into neighboring countries as well?) But also he's under criminal investigation and very unpopular. He knows once the war is over, he's done.BiochemAg97 said:barbacoa taco said:
Where did I say Israel had no right to respond?
And if the USA went over to Japan and started bombing hospitals and schools and starving the people I'd say that's wrong. And I know we dropped 2 bombs on them, which I also have issues with, but that's neither here nor there.
Israel has had many opportunities for a ceasefire deal with the return of hostages and made no effort to make that happen. It's because Bibi does not care about the hostages. He cares about ethnically cleansing the Palestinians from the land and taking Gaza and the West Bank, and now clearly part of Lebanon.
Why is it so hard to just admit that Israel has taken things too far? I thought every decent person could agree that even if you are the victim of an attack, killing thousands more in return is not an appropriate response?
Heck of a lot of suppositions there. A cease fire takes two to agree. The fact that they didn't happen is as much on Hamas as on Israel. Both sides had things the other wanted that they couldn't agree to. But you act as if Israel should just capitulate to the demands of Hamas. Somehow I don't think "hey we attacked you, but now that you are kicking our butt, we should stop fighting and you should leave so we can rebuild and plan our next attack without interference" is a smart deal for Israel.
Was listening to the advisory opinion podcast where they were talking to a federal judge who was part of a judicial delegation to Israel. His comments were interesting.
Israel is not benevolent with the notice they give. They say somewhere is a safe zone, until it isn't. And they block somewhere around 80% of the food aid going into Gaza.Quote:
Israel makes considerable effort to give advance notice of where they will be fighting the next day to give time for the civilians to move out of the way. Can you think of any other military in the world that would broadcast their battle plan to the enemy?
Detailed the lawyer review of every airstrike, giving a go/no go based on the surrounding area in real time.
Israel also provides a lot of food (3000 cal per day) to people in the camps in northern Gaza. Kind of an odd thing to do if you are trying to kill them.
That said, it is war. Mistakes are made. Plenty of friendly fire casualties in American history, or do you think the US makes a habit of intentionally targeting its own soldiers?
Also, if we want to talk about the Geneva Convention and/or war crimes, hiding ammo supplies and command centers under schools/hospitals is a violation. Running around blending in with the civilian population by not wearing uniforms (except when potentially on TV) is a violation. Targeting civilians (such as on Oct 7, 2023) is a violation.
It's hard to give Israel the benefit of the doubt on mistakes when they make the same mistake over and over again. And what makes it more infuriating is when they bomb a school or a refugee camp, killing upwards of 50 people, and no evidence they got a Hamas militant, they just say some lame excuse like "uhh, well one of them was probably Hamas so it's okay."
I am aware Hamas is not innocent either, but we consider Israel our closest ally and a beacon of democracy and civility in the ME. Yet our standards we have for them are in the gutter.