It is but fit that the Blessed Virgin should be without any stain, and that she should so entirely conquer Satan, that she was not even for one moment subject to him. If Mary's soul had been, only for one moment, spotted with original sin, she would have been subject to Satan for that length of time; she would have been a seat, a dwelling of the devil, a slave to him, and a child of divine wrath. Would it have been suitable that the only Son of God should dwell nine months in the womb of a created being, who before, though for ever so short a space of time had been a dwelling of Satan?

Can we think, without trembling, that she, who was chosen from all eternity to become the mother of our Lord, had been a slave to the devil, an object of divine wrath? If this had been the case, Satan could have boasted that, before Christ, he had inhabited the Ark which was destined by the Almighty, not to preserve manna, or the lifeless tables of the law, but to keep, during nine months, the holy Lawgiver Himself. Would this have been worthy of Christ? No one will dare say it. Hence, the honor of Him, whom Mary gave to the world, demands that she should have been conceived immaculate. The high dignity to which Mary was raised allows not the thought that she, even for one moment, was defiled with original sin.

(Lives of the Saints, Francis Xavier Weninger, 1876).

What a great way of showing the problems of trying to use philosophy ahead of Scriptures.

Using more philosophy, if what is claimed is true, this must also be true:

It is but fit that the St. Anne should be without any stain, and that she should so entirely conquer Satan, that she was not even for one moment subject to him. If Anne's soul had been, only for one moment, spotted with original sin, she would have been subject to Satan for that length of time; she would have been a seat, a dwelling of the devil, a slave to him, and a child of divine wrath. Would it have been suitable that the only Mother of the Son of God should dwell nine months in the womb of a created being, who before, though for ever so short a space of time had been a dwelling of Satan?

Can we think, without trembling, that she, who was chosen from all eternity to become the Grandmother of our Lord, had been a slave to the devil, an object of divine wrath? If this had been the case, Satan could have boasted that, before Christ, he had inhabited the Mother of the Ark which was destined by the Almighty, not to preserve manna, or the lifeless tables of the law, but to keep, during nine months, the holy Lawgiver Himself. Would this have been worthy of Christ? No one will dare say it. Hence, the honor of Her, whom Anne gave to the world, demands that she should have been conceived immaculate. The high dignity to which Anne was raised allows not the thought that she, even for one moment, was defiled with original sin.

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So if Mary was immaculately conceived, Anne needed to be for the same reasons, and so backward we go.

Edit...the more I think about it, given the claims above, it seems absolutely necessary to say that St. Anne was also immaculately conceived. Because to the point above, do you really want to say that the ark that was destined to carry the almighty was really within a child of divine wrath? How degrading for the ark to have been considered a slave to the devil.

Pro Sandy said:

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Thaddeus73 said:

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Agreed - As the bible says, A bad tree cannot bear good fruit, and Jesus is the fruit of her womb...

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honestly, this doesn't make sense. If that is the issue, a bad tree can't bear good fruit, the immaculate conception doesn't solve it, it only pushes the problem back a generation. If Mary can't bear Jesus if she has sin because she would be a bad tree, how does it make sense that her mom, also a bad tree, could bear a sinless child? If that required a miracle, what prevents God from doing the miracle for the conception of Jesus?

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This! I tend to focus more on the particular wording in by the angel in Luke 1:35 NKJV
"[35] And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God."

Perhaps what is being said here is precisely what you indicate in your last sentence.

TXaggiesTX said:

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• Mary calls God her savior. Why would a sinless person need a savior? (Luke 2:47)
• None righteous, not one (Romans 3:10). All have sinned (Romans 3:23).
• Jesus calls John the Baptist the greatest person born of woman to ever live (Matthew 11:11).
• The idea that Mary led a sinless life has never made sense to me theologically. If there was another person who lived a sinless life, why did Jesus have to do it? and wouldn't that diminish his doing it? Jesus was only able to be a substitute for our sins because he lived the life we should have lived. 2 Cor. 5:21 - For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
  
  
  

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I agree. Scripture is point on.

Catag94 said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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Thaddeus73 said:

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Agreed - As the bible says, A bad tree cannot bear good fruit, and Jesus is the fruit of her womb...

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honestly, this doesn't make sense. If that is the issue, a bad tree can't bear good fruit, the immaculate conception doesn't solve it, it only pushes the problem back a generation. If Mary can't bear Jesus if she has sin because she would be a bad tree, how does it make sense that her mom, also a bad tree, could bear a sinless child? If that required a miracle, what prevents God from doing the miracle for the conception of Jesus?

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This! I tend to focus more on the particular wording in by the angel in Luke 1:35 NKJV
"[35] And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God."

Perhaps what is being said here is precisely what you indicate in your last sentence.

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Since this thread was titled about Luther, in my quick research this somewhat seems to be where he landed in the end.

She was born sinful, but when the Holy Spirit came upon her, she or her womb were supernaturally protected from sin during those 9 months.

Either way, nothing he claimed as doctrine or that we had to believe...

Perpetual Virginity - Catechism of the Catholic Church

Mary - "ever-virgin"

499 The deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood led the Church to confess Mary's real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made man. 154 In fact, Christ's birth "did not diminish his mother's virginal integrity but sanctified it." 155 And so the liturgy of the Church celebrates Mary as Aeiparthenos , the "Ever-virgin". 156

500 Against this doctrine the objection is sometimes raised that the Bible mentions brothers and sisters of Jesus. 157 The Church has always understood these passages as not referring to other children of the Virgin Mary. In fact James and Joseph, "brothers of Jesus", are the sons of another Mary, a disciple of Christ, whom St. Matthew significantly calls "the other Mary". 158 They are close relations of Jesus, according to an Old Testament expression. 159

501 Jesus is Mary's only son, but her spiritual motherhood extends to all men whom indeed he came to save: "The Son whom she brought forth is he whom God placed as the first-born among many brethren, that is, the faithful in whose generation and formation she co-operates with a mother's love." 160

Mary's virginal motherhood in God's plan

502 The eyes of faith can discover in the context of the whole of Revelation the mysterious reasons why God in his saving plan wanted his Son to be born of a virgin. These reasons touch both on the person of Christ and his redemptive mission, and on the welcome Mary gave that mission on behalf of all men.

503 Mary's virginity manifests God's absolute initiative in the Incarnation. Jesus has only God as Father. "He was never estranged from the Father because of the human nature which he assumed. . . He is naturally Son of the Father as to his divinity and naturally son of his mother as to his humanity, but properly Son of the Father in both natures." 161

504 Jesus is conceived by the Holy Spirit in the Virgin Mary's womb because he is the New Adam, who inaugurates the new creation: "The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven." 162 From his conception, Christ's humanity is filled with the Holy Spirit, for God "gives him the Spirit without measure." 163 From "his fullness" as the head of redeemed humanity "we have all received, grace upon grace." 164

505 By his virginal conception, Jesus, the New Adam, ushers in the new birth of children adopted in the Holy Spirit through faith. "How can this be?" 165 Participation in the divine life arises "not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God". 166 The acceptance of this life is virginal because it is entirely the Spirit's gift to man. The spousal character of the human vocation in relation to God 167 is fulfilled perfectly in Mary's virginal motherhood.

506 Mary is a virgin because her virginity is the sign of her faith "unadulterated by any doubt", and of her undivided gift of herself to God's will. 168 It is her faith that enables her to become the mother of the Savior: "Mary is more blessed because she embraces faith in Christ than because she conceives the flesh of Christ." 169

507 At once virgin and mother, Mary is the symbol and the most perfect realization of the Church: "the Church indeed. . . by receiving the word of God in faith becomes herself a mother. By preaching and Baptism she brings forth sons, who are conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of God, to a new and immortal life. She herself is a virgin, who keeps in its entirety and purity the faith she pledged to her spouse." 170

154 Cf. DS 291; 294; 427; 442; 503; 571; 1880.
155 LG 57.
156 Cf. LG 52.
157 Cf. Mk 3:31-35; 6:3; 1 Cor 9:5; Gal 1:19.
158 Mt 13:55; 28:1; cf. Mt 27:56.
159 Cf. Gen 13:8; 14:16; 29:15; etc.
160 LG 63; cf. Jn 19:26-27; Rom 8:29; Rev 12:17.
161 Council of Friuli (796): DS 619; cf. Lk 2:48-49.
162 1 Cor 15:45,47.
163 Jn 3:34.
164 Jn 1:16; cf. Col 1:18.
165 Lk 1:34; cf. Jn 3:9.
166 Jn 1:13.
167 Cf. 2 Cor 11:2.
168 LG 63; cf. 1 Cor 7:34-35.
169 St. Augustine, De virg. , 3: PL 40, 398.
170 LG 64; cf. 63.

The Immaculate Conception - The Catechism of the Catholic Church

490 To become the mother of the Savior, Mary "was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role." 132 The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as "full of grace". 133 In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God's grace.

491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God, 134 was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:

The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin. 135

492 The "splendor of an entirely unique holiness" by which Mary is "enriched from the first instant of her conception" comes wholly from Christ: she is "redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son". 136 The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person "in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" and chose her "in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love". 137

493 The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God "the All-Holy" (Panagia), and celebrate her as "free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature". 138 By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.

132 LG 56.
133 Lk 1:28.
134 Lk 1:28.
135 Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus (1854): DS 2803.
136 LG 53, 56.
137 Cf. Eph 1:3-4.
138 LG 56.

I have been told by Catholic friends that Martin Luther cannot be trusted as a theologian.

Many of the early Lutherans actually followed Luther and his main emphasis of what the Reformation attempt of the Roman Catholic Church was really about.

But these early Lutherans were forced to form the German Reformed Churches by you know who.

Still wish Farsight would do a project centered around this fantastic young women's "conception".

Personally I believe Saints Anne and Joachim deserve their privacy from pervs two millennia in the future peeking in on their unitive relationship.

jkag89 said:

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Personally I believe Saints Anne and Joachim deserve their privacy from pervs two millennia in the future peeking in on their unitive relationship.

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What do you expect from men who "stare" at goats?