kurt vonnegut said:
Quote:
Slavery?
See William Wilberforce and John Newton.
We were the first religion or culture to end slavery that existed since the fall of mankind.
Cool, i'll make you a medal. Does being the first to do something good mean that all bad things didn't happen? See 16th and 17th Century Christian nations Portugal and Spain. The Atlantic slave trade was dominated by Christians. Both in terms of who was capturing the selling and in who was purchasing. And the practice was expressly supported by some of the popes of the time.
Do you honestly believe that Christians get to wash their hands of humanity's dark history with slavery?
Quote:
Sexism?
The first witnesses of the resurrection in the Bible were women. In Rome, women were not allowed to be witnesses in trials. Christianity definitely mentions other women of God in the New Testament and uplifted women into their proper role.
There were some women in the Bible - therefore Christians have never been sexist. What is this argument?
Quote:
Bigotry?
You accuse us of being sinful like the rest of mankind?
No way. At least we have a worldview with a final justice for these things. This too shall be made right.
How many did godless Hitler, Stalin, and Mao kill just last century. Please. Bigoted…
Yes, Christians are sinful like the rest of mankind. Before I put words in your mouth, are you saying that Christians don't commit sins? Or that Christians haven't committed the same sins as every other culture?
European colonialism did not happen that long ago, how is it that zero Christians know what the hell happened? European Christians, very openly and publicly justifying themselves through their religion, raped the entire continent of Africa and large parts of Asia. Massive genocides, torture, human experimentation, eradication of cultures, forced starvations, and economic theft on enormous scales.
Your worldview proposed a final justice that cannot be proven or tested or explained or examined. Its a thing that simply does not exist. But if it does, what kind of justice is infinite torture for finite crime? Most Christian understandings of the afterlife are better explained by self righteousness and Christian exceptionalism with a dash of schadenfraude and disdain for other beliefs.
Quote:
Burning of heretics?
Yeah. Many, many Protestants were put to death. But we believe in forgiveness because we have been forgiven.
Oh well, I guess its like it never happened then.
Quote:
Witches?
Salem was an isolated community and what happened there was condemned by every clergyman in the American colonies. But the rest of the story is not what you learn about in government schools.
Thats why I said witches and not Salem. 50,000 witches were killed over a couple centuries in the US and Europe by Christians.
Quote:
The fact of the matter is the secularists are self-righteous hypocrites telling us how to live on this very thread.
Ah yes, the "I know you are, but what am I" defense. Well played. Between the two of us, one of us is saying they are know objective moral truth and that they have authority to impose that on others. Which of us do you think that is?
Now - all this said. I am thankful for some of the contributions made by Christianity. I'm also thankful for ancient pagan contributions, Celtic contributions, secular contributions, and on and on. Don't mistake my post above as wholesale rejection of Christian values - I'm rather pointing out that Christians have been far from perfect.
Quote:
Please go on and elaborate…
If there is an objective standard of morality and goodness, you have only your personal subjective faculties with which to understand those objective standards. This point should be obvious just given the fact that there are tens of thousands of denominations of Christians all arguing over what that objective standard is.
This puts you and me and very similar footing. Neither of us get to pretend like we know what is objectively moral or immoral.
{Do you honestly believe that Christians get to wash their hands of humanity's dark history with slavery?}
Nope. "For all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). But Christians were the first to put an end to it based upon "Imago Dei."
And if you were a slave and went to the east, then you were castrated by the Muslims.
{There were some women in the Bible - therefore Christians have never been sexist. What is this argument?}
Yes. And later could serve as witnesses in court trial because women were the first witnesses of the resurrection. Neither the Romans nor the Greeks allowed that beforehand.
{ 50,000 witches were killed over a couple centuries in the US and Europe by Christians.}
Mad we have recorded history as well and actually repent from it. That is why Christians invented our Republic, the university, the first hospitals, free speech, religious liberty, and ended slavery. We repent and adjust to the standards of Scripture.
We've seen how secularism doesn't work because your so-called neutrality is hypocritical.
Jesus said that you are either for him or against him.
Kant took that and argued that there was no such thing as neutrality.
We've had it and secularism doesn't work and is not consistent with historic America.
{Yes, Christians are sinful like the rest of mankind. Before I put words in your mouth, are you saying that Christians don't commit sins? Or that Christians haven't committed the same sins as every other culture?}
I'm saying that Christianity is the only worldview that allows religious liberty, maintains it, and grants its followers ground to repent out of sheer gratitude for the forgiveness of sins.
Teaching people how to read and write. So that they might be able to read the Scriptures and be able to do something about government and politics.
{Ah yes, the "I know you are, but what am I" defense. Well played. Between the two of us, one of us is saying they are know objective moral truth and that they have authority to impose that on others. Which of us do you think that is?}
We impose through voting just like everyone else.
Popular sovereignty…
{Now - all this said. I am thankful for some of the contributions made by Christianity. I'm also thankful for ancient pagan contributions, Celtic contributions, secular contributions, and on and on. Don't mistake my post above as wholesale rejection of Christian values - I'm rather pointing out that Christians have been far from perfect.}
Christianity is the culmination of all truth.
"All truth is God's truth." Developed by St. Augustine…4th century.
{If there is an objective standard of morality and goodness, you have only your personal subjective faculties with which to understand those objective standards. }
I have an historic church community where the Scripture is both taught and discussed. We also are a praying church. You must have that for your subjective faculties to be overturned from their inclination to just copy and borrow most all of any morality that you have; and give no credit to how the remnant of the Christian church in culture has influenced you the most.
That and Psalm 19:1 (ESV)
"The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork."
The Scriptures are the lenses through we properly see in order to pray through our growing wisdom and understanding of the world around us (received that from Calvin).
{This point should be obvious just given the fact that there are tens of thousands of denominations of Christians all arguing over what that objective standard is.}
Sure. And most of those no longer hold to the deity of Christ. They created a completely different religion(s).
{This puts you and me and very similar footing. Neither of us get to pretend like we know what is objectively moral or immoral.}
So…on what ground other than the U.S. Constitution, do you have to stand upon in saying that the government shouldn't promote homosexuality?
You said that earlier as I recall. Did I read that correctly?
