It just keeps on happening. Flashback from the 70's.

Yep, Dermdoc…

I have some questions for you and Zobel.

How much influence does the Russian Orthodox Church have on the people and government in Russia (I know they have a lot of influence)?

What is the sentiment and stance towards the preservation of Jews maintaining modern day Israel?

I ask these questions because many of our Dispensationalist brothers and sisters in the faith believe that an army from Russia will be apart of the invading armies into Israel in their version of a Gog and Magog war.

I think you have to be very careful trying to interpret Revelation literally.

There is so much allegory and imagery that trying to definitively come to concrete conclusions is impossible in my opinion.
And that is why so much money has been made off of different authors interpretation.
I personally think this was a letter of encouragement to the churches in wake of Roman persecution and that most of the imagery was about the Roman Empire.

The one thing I do know is that Jesus and The church win in the end,

dermdoc said:

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I think you have to be very careful trying to interpret Revelation literally.

There is so much allegory and imagery that trying to definitively come to concrete conclusions is impossible in my opinion.
And that is why so much money has been made off of different authors interpretation.
I personally think this was a letter of encouragement to the churches in wake of Roman persecution and that most of the imagery was about the Roman Empire.

The one thing I do know is that Jesus and The church win in the end,

---

Amen to that!

What's also interesting is that while Dispensationalist hold to two peoples of God, I bet the Hebrew people love that until they find out what happens to them after Gog and Magog, according to the Dispensationalist interpretations.

It's like people don't get why we are not to know the exact time of his coming, if we did many would live like hell pleasing the flesh up till the last minute, and try a deathbed-type confession. Signs and seasons, always have your lamp full.

AG @ HEART said:

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It's like people don't get why we are not to know the exact time of his coming, if we did many would live like hell pleasing the flesh up till the last minute, and try a deathbed-type confession. Signs and seasons, always have your lamp full.

---

People who please the flesh are never happy and full of peace in my opinion.

True joy only comes from Christ and being filled with the Holy Spirit.

That is where a lot of Christians Miss the whole message of the Gospel.

Jesus said very little about "heaven" or "hell" or the afterlife at all.

He always talked about the kingdom being here now. And how He gave us abundant life now.

But I also believe Paul was talking about the Jews literally when he said all Israel will be saved.

AG @ HEART said:

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It's like people don't get why we are not to know the exact time of his coming, if we did many would live like hell pleasing the flesh up till the last minute, and try a deathbed-type confession. Signs and seasons, always have your lamp full.

---

If that's the motivation to escape hell because Jesus may come back tomorrow, then I doubt the person's salvation anyway. Unless Jesus becomes your all in all, then you have reason to be in doubt and feel convicted that God is teaching you something.

Not saying you personally. It applies to us all.

TheGreatEscape said:

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Yep, Dermdoc…

I have some questions for you and Zobel.

How much influence does the Russian Orthodox Church have on the people and government in Russia (I know they have a lot of influence)?

What is the sentiment and stance towards the preservation of Jews maintaining modern day Israel?

I ask these questions because many of our Dispensationalist brothers and sisters in the faith believe that an army from Russia will be apart of the invading armies into Israel in their version of a Gog and Magog war.

---

Ask your Dispensationalist friends why they think that has any bearing on maintaining modern day Israel when Revelation 20-7-8 says the Gog and Magog war won't happen until after the thousand year (Millennial) kingdom. So, any of that is more than a 1000 years from now, and has no bearing on anything happening today or in the near future.

Also, I've been saying for about 5 years now, that all this doomsday stuff is going to reach a peak like it's never reached before around 2030 to 2033.

So, don't expect this kind of stuff to go away anytime soon.

Win At Life said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Yep, Dermdoc…

I have some questions for you and Zobel.

How much influence does the Russian Orthodox Church have on the people and government in Russia (I know they have a lot of influence)?

What is the sentiment and stance towards the preservation of Jews maintaining modern day Israel?

I ask these questions because many of our Dispensationalist brothers and sisters in the faith believe that an army from Russia will be apart of the invading armies into Israel in their version of a Gog and Magog war.

---

Ask your Dispensationalist friends why they think that has any bearing on maintaining modern day Israel when Revelation 20-7-8 says the Gog and Magog war won't happen until after the thousand year (Millennial) kingdom. So, any of that is more than a 1000 years from now, and has no bearing on anything happening today or in the near future.

---

After Gog and Magog occurs, most Dispensationalists believe the rapture will occur before the Great Tribulation happens to the Jews.

I'm just wondering lol how the Jews feel about that…

I defend the Jews as much as I can because they really are our elder brother.

Don't you think dispensationalism is dying out? My impression is that most of the younger faculty at Dallas Seminary, which at one time was the center of dispensationalism, are no longer dispensationalists.

Dispensationalism may still be alive and well at some churches and with some people, but without a seminary to support it, then the current pastors who believe it will start thinning out as they retire and will be replaced by non-dispensationalist pastors.

I'm in a Bible study led by a retired DTS professor who was one of their major dispensationalists. He is a very, very bright guy (his undergraduate degree was in engineering from Northwestern) and loves discussion and disagreement. I am constantly baffled, however, by his adherence to dispensationalism and a very tight interpretation of prophecy since there is literally no data at all to support his interpretations. When challenged, he'll seem to readily agree to the weakness of support for his positions, but then he'll constantly return to them.

Sometimes I just chalk it up to his age. Real old folks have a hard time adjusting to changes in anything.

Jabin said:

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Don't you think dispensationalism is dying out? My impression is that most of the younger faculty at Dallas Seminary, which at one time was the center of dispensationalism, are no longer dispensationalists.

Dispensationalism may still be alive and well at some churches and with some people, but without a seminary to support it, then the current pastors who believe it will start thinning out as they retire and will be replaced by non-dispensationalist pastors.

I'm in a Bible study led by a retired DTS professor who was one of their major dispensationalists. He is a very, very bright guy (his undergraduate degree was in engineering from Northwestern) and loves discussion and disagreement. I am constantly baffled, however, by his adherence to dispensationalism and a very tight interpretation of prophecy since there is literally no data at all to support his interpretations. When challenged, he'll seem to readily agree to the weakness of support for his positions, but then he'll constantly return to them.

Sometimes I just chalk it up to his age. Real old folks have a hard time adjusting to changes in anything.

---

Some DTS students (graduate school) attended Criswell College that is basically next door. They get their Biblical Studies (undergraduate) Dispensational degree there as well.

So I doubt DTS is moving towards fulfillment (covenantal) theology anytime soon.

There are a few like Daniel Wallace (a great Greek scholar) .
Learned some Greek from one of his former coworkers, who is a fulfillment (covenantal) scholar.

"Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics" (by Daniel Wallace) is an excellent work. We used it.

dermdoc said:

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AG @ HEART said:

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It's like people don't get why we are not to know the exact time of his coming, if we did many would live like hell pleasing the flesh up till the last minute, and try a deathbed-type confession. Signs and seasons, always have your lamp full.

---

People who please the flesh are never happy and full of peace in my opinion.

True joy only comes from Christ and being filled with the Holy Spirit.

That is where a lot of Christians Miss the whole message of the Gospel.

Jesus said very little about "heaven" or "hell" or the afterlife at all.

He always talked about the kingdom being here now. And how He gave us abundant life now.

But I also believe Paul was talking about the Jews literally when he said all Israel will be saved.

---

Doc I agree with 99% of what you post...but did have a question. So you believe Paul was talking about the Jews as a people and not Israel being all Christians? I assume you believe the Jews Paul refers to will come to accept Christ at that time?
Not saying I disagree, but rather just trying to get an understanding.

BluHorseShu said:

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dermdoc said:

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AG @ HEART said:

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It's like people don't get why we are not to know the exact time of his coming, if we did many would live like hell pleasing the flesh up till the last minute, and try a deathbed-type confession. Signs and seasons, always have your lamp full.

---

People who please the flesh are never happy and full of peace in my opinion.

True joy only comes from Christ and being filled with the Holy Spirit.

That is where a lot of Christians Miss the whole message of the Gospel.

Jesus said very little about "heaven" or "hell" or the afterlife at all.

He always talked about the kingdom being here now. And how He gave us abundant life now.

But I also believe Paul was talking about the Jews literally when he said all Israel will be saved.

---

Doc I agree with 99% of what you post...but did have a question. So you believe Paul was talking about the Jews as a people and not Israel being all Christians? I assume you believe the Jews Paul refers to will come to accept Christ at that time?
Not saying I disagree, but rather just trying to get an understanding.

---

Yes I believe a large number of Jews will convert at that time.

There could be some who hold neither position. You know that you don't necessarily have to be one or the other.

Agreed. Romans 11 is clearly discussing ethnic Jews and
Gentiles there.

dermdoc said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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dermdoc said:

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AG @ HEART said:

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It's like people don't get why we are not to know the exact time of his coming, if we did many would live like hell pleasing the flesh up till the last minute, and try a deathbed-type confession. Signs and seasons, always have your lamp full.

---

People who please the flesh are never happy and full of peace in my opinion.

True joy only comes from Christ and being filled with the Holy Spirit.

That is where a lot of Christians Miss the whole message of the Gospel.

Jesus said very little about "heaven" or "hell" or the afterlife at all.

He always talked about the kingdom being here now. And how He gave us abundant life now.

But I also believe Paul was talking about the Jews literally when he said all Israel will be saved.

---

Doc I agree with 99% of what you post...but did have a question. So you believe Paul was talking about the Jews as a people and not Israel being all Christians? I assume you believe the Jews Paul refers to will come to accept Christ at that time?
Not saying I disagree, but rather just trying to get an understanding.

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Yes I believe a large number of Jews will convert at that time.

---

I figured. I just wanted to clarify. I'm trying to discern those that believe that Jews will be saved regardless of their conversion to Christianity.

BluHorseShu said:

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dermdoc said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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dermdoc said:

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AG @ HEART said:

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It's like people don't get why we are not to know the exact time of his coming, if we did many would live like hell pleasing the flesh up till the last minute, and try a deathbed-type confession. Signs and seasons, always have your lamp full.

---

People who please the flesh are never happy and full of peace in my opinion.

True joy only comes from Christ and being filled with the Holy Spirit.

That is where a lot of Christians Miss the whole message of the Gospel.

Jesus said very little about "heaven" or "hell" or the afterlife at all.

He always talked about the kingdom being here now. And how He gave us abundant life now.

But I also believe Paul was talking about the Jews literally when he said all Israel will be saved.

---

Doc I agree with 99% of what you post...but did have a question. So you believe Paul was talking about the Jews as a people and not Israel being all Christians? I assume you believe the Jews Paul refers to will come to accept Christ at that time?
Not saying I disagree, but rather just trying to get an understanding.

---

Yes I believe a large number of Jews will convert at that time.

---

I figured. I just wanted to clarify. I'm trying to discern those that believe that Jews will be saved regardless of their conversion to Christianity.

---

In my opinion, you have to accept Christ.

dermdoc said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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dermdoc said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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dermdoc said:

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AG @ HEART said:

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It's like people don't get why we are not to know the exact time of his coming, if we did many would live like hell pleasing the flesh up till the last minute, and try a deathbed-type confession. Signs and seasons, always have your lamp full.

---

People who please the flesh are never happy and full of peace in my opinion.

True joy only comes from Christ and being filled with the Holy Spirit.

That is where a lot of Christians Miss the whole message of the Gospel.

Jesus said very little about "heaven" or "hell" or the afterlife at all.

He always talked about the kingdom being here now. And how He gave us abundant life now.

But I also believe Paul was talking about the Jews literally when he said all Israel will be saved.

---

Doc I agree with 99% of what you post...but did have a question. So you believe Paul was talking about the Jews as a people and not Israel being all Christians? I assume you believe the Jews Paul refers to will come to accept Christ at that time?
Not saying I disagree, but rather just trying to get an understanding.

---

Yes I believe a large number of Jews will convert at that time.

---

I figured. I just wanted to clarify. I'm trying to discern those that believe that Jews will be saved regardless of their conversion to Christianity.

---

In my opinion, you have to accept Christ.

---

Absotively posolutely.

I agree on the crazy Protestant Revelation interpretations. And I am not a dispensationalist.

And the commonly held belief that we go to "heaven" or "hell" right after we die is just bad theology.

Scripture is pretty obvious there is an intermediate state until Jesus returns. Then we are resurrected with new bodies, there is the judgement, and then we live in a new Jerusalem and God comes down to Earth.

dermdoc said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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dermdoc said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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dermdoc said:

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AG @ HEART said:

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It's like people don't get why we are not to know the exact time of his coming, if we did many would live like hell pleasing the flesh up till the last minute, and try a deathbed-type confession. Signs and seasons, always have your lamp full.

---

People who please the flesh are never happy and full of peace in my opinion.

True joy only comes from Christ and being filled with the Holy Spirit.

That is where a lot of Christians Miss the whole message of the Gospel.

Jesus said very little about "heaven" or "hell" or the afterlife at all.

He always talked about the kingdom being here now. And how He gave us abundant life now.

But I also believe Paul was talking about the Jews literally when he said all Israel will be saved.

---

Doc I agree with 99% of what you post...but did have a question. So you believe Paul was talking about the Jews as a people and not Israel being all Christians? I assume you believe the Jews Paul refers to will come to accept Christ at that time?
Not saying I disagree, but rather just trying to get an understanding.

---

Yes I believe a large number of Jews will convert at that time.

---

I figured. I just wanted to clarify. I'm trying to discern those that believe that Jews will be saved regardless of their conversion to Christianity.

---

In my opinion, you have to accept Christ.

---

Many Jews believe in Mashi'akh, which is the Old Testament Hebrew word that was later translated to Greek as christos and then to English as Christ. The English word "Christ" is never found in any inspired original letter in the Bible.

Quote:

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Many Jews believe in Mashi'akh, which is the Old Testament Hebrew word that was later translated to Greek as christos and then to English as Christ. The English word "Christ" is never found in any inspired original letter in the Bible.

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Oh, c'mon, you have to be more specific than that. On its face, your statement is goofy.

Why did you qualify your statement with "inspired original letter"? What do you consider the inspired letters or books of the OT?

And the NT almost certainly was not written in Hebrew but in Greek. The Greek word for Christ is found throughout the NT.

CrackerJackAg said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Yep, Dermdoc…

I have some questions for you and Zobel.

How much influence does the Russian Orthodox Church have on the people and government in Russia (I know they have a lot of influence)?

What is the sentiment and stance towards the preservation of Jews maintaining modern day Israel?

I ask these questions because many of our Dispensationalist brothers and sisters in the faith believe that an army from Russia will be apart of the invading armies into Israel in their version of a Gog and Magog war.

---

This sounds like typical protestant revelation, prophecy, craziness. There are a lot of admirable traits about Protestantism. The prophesying, the wild randomness of your Revelations interpretations along with the made up rapture are not your best traits.

The Orthodox Church in Russia currently has no official position in the Russian government from my understanding, but their influence is considerable. Have you seen the incredible cathedral at the new military Academy? The soldiers all receive Christian education.

I don't believe they have any real interest in the Jews either way. The fascination with Jerusalem has always been a western Christian thing. Their interest probably stops at not wanting it to become Muslim.

I think it's worth mentioning that the United States has created a lot of tension between Isreal and the rest of the world. We have forced Russia into a quasi alliance with China and I ran that won't last long-term but we have pushed them there for now.

I believe our foreign policy is absolutely demonic. We have not been a force for good from a Christian perspective.

If you are the type of prosperity protestant that believes money and freedom, and all of those kind of things play in to Christianity, then you will talk about how great America has been from that perspective across the world, but that doesn't mean anything to me from a Christian standpoint.

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I abhor the health and wealth gospel that results in basically what some may call a ponzy scheme. It's trying to manipulate God by the repetition of words (name it and claim it) and not too different from soothsayers and sorcerers trying to do something similar but for evil. Many even tell their people not to pray "if it be thy will" when praying and petitioning. We do have the promises of Abraham. But the full revelation and model of Scripture shows us that we will have to endure trials and some suffering in life and how we must trust in the sovereign decree of God. The "God just wants us to be happy and live our best life now" is a shallow representation of what true pleasure and joy through the work of the Holy Spirit is about.

Dispensationalism took root in the 19th Century. I am not a Dispensationalist. I am part of the historic Protestant Reformed Tradition. We are either postmill or amill. It's rare but some Reformed Baptist are historic premill and even Dispensationalist.

Thank you for answering the questions about Russia. I just don't see them ever invading Israel. There probably is also still influential Jewish communities living in Russia. So I'm not concerned at all.

I believe the Jews have a Hagar type of covenant with God still. But being a true Jew has nothing to do with ethnicity. Never has. Abraham and his descendants were commanded to circumcise slaves and other Arabs joining. They weren't all of Abrahams physical seed or related to him in DNA anyway.

Quote:

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But being a true Jew has nothing to do with ethnicity. Never has. Abraham and his descendants were commanded to circumcise slaves and other Arabs joining. They weren't all of Abrahams physical seed or related to him in DNA anyway.

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I don't find that convincing. It may be true that "being a true Jew" is more than simply ethnicity, but that does not necessarily equate to "nothing to do with ethnicity". Both testaments seem to spend an awful lot of time discussing physical descendants of the Patriarchs, and God's promises to many of the Patriarchs are explicitly regarding their physical descendants, which seems to me to rebut the "nothing to do" argument.

Romans 2:28-29

"28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God."

Romans 11:17-24

Quote:

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17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root[b] of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

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If being a Jew is only and merely a belief system, then what were the Gentile Christians grafted into?

And also Romans 9:3-5:

Quote:

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3 For I could [a]wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my countrymen, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons and daughters, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the temple service, and the promises; 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the [b]Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed [c]forever. Amen.

---

I will readily admit that I cannot precisely define what God's plan for Abraham's physical descendants is. To me, it is a mystery. But although Jews will not be saved unless they confess and follow Christ, God does still seem to have some special role for the descendants of Abraham. What that role is I cannot say.

ETA:

Here's a pretty good article from Ligonier Ministries which is Reformed and decidedly not Dispensational:

The Church and Israel in the New Testament by Keith Mathison (ligonier.org)

Jabin said:

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Romans 11:17-24

Quote:

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17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root[b] of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

---

If being a Jew is only and merely a belief system, then what were the Gentile Christians grafted into?

And also Romans 9:3-5:

Quote:

---

3 For I could [a]wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my countrymen, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons and daughters, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the temple service, and the promises; 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the [b]Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed [c]forever. Amen.

---

I will readily admit that I cannot precisely define what God's plan for Abraham's physical descendants is. To me, it is a mystery. But although Jews will not be saved unless they confess and follow Christ, God does still seem to have some special role for the descendants of Abraham. What that role is I cannot say.

ETA:

Here's a pretty good article from Ligonier Ministries which is Reformed and decidedly not Dispensational:

The Church and Israel in the New Testament by Keith Mathison (ligonier.org)

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True. Good link. Love you, brother Jabin. You're doing great. Keep walking in the Spirit!

You, too, Brother Escape!

By the way, I had a real good friend back in grade school in Abilene in the 60s whose father was in Stalag Luft III at the time of the Great Escape. He helped in digging the tunnels but did not escape, which is why he lived and was able to have the son that was my friend!

The friend, unfortunately, ended up an atheist and was a prof at Cornell, last I heard.

That's interesting. One of my earliest memories of a war movie so I went with it.

Can anyone tell me where 1948 Israel is found in the Bible?

Being a Jew is not a belief system. Nor is being an Israelite. But it is also not who your parents are. It is being part of a people, as both St Paul and St Peter teach. What people are being grafted into is not a bloodline - how would that even make sense? - but a people. That's what the word laity means, the people. That people is identified by those who are faithful to the God of Abraham, YHWH, who is Jesus. Part of being that people is your religious activity and confession of faith but that is by no means the extent. This is the focus of a huge amount of the NT.

Magic blood isn't in the scriptures. That is what defined the sons of Israel, but not All Israel.

Good stuff. It's always an honor to have you around.

Btw, I attended seminary for while and became close friends with a former editor of the Religion Section for the Dallas Morning News. He said that the Eastern Orthodox Churches were the closest thing to a Synagogue that he had ever experienced in the Christian faith. That's cool.

Zobel said:

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Being a Jew is not a belief system. Nor is being an Israelite. But it is also not who your parents are. It is being part of a people, as both St Paul and St Peter teach. What people are being grafted into is not a bloodline - how would that even make sense? - but a people. That's what the word laity means, the people. That people is identified by those who are faithful to the God of Abraham, YHWH, who is Jesus. Part of being that people is your religious activity and confession of faith but that is by no means the extent. This is the focus of a huge amount of the NT.

Magic blood isn't in the scriptures. That is what defined the sons of Israel, but not All Israel.

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Your logic is circular and you state your conclusions as arguments.