So salvation is not a choice? When you said embrace Jesus what did you mean?

Yukon Cornelius said:

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So salvation is not a choice? When you said embrace Jesus what did you mean?

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Reading comprehension problem? "Unwilling faith" = ridiculous notion.

What did you mean by embrace Jesus?

Yukon Cornelius said:

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What did you mean by embrace Jesus?

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To gain, worship, accept, receive, rest upon, submit to, adopt, unite. Let me know if you want me to look up those words in the dictionary too. I have the time.

All of those are choices one makes. So you concur it's our free will to accept or embrace Jesus as you put it or to reject Him?

Yukon Cornelius said:

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All of those are choices one makes. So you concur it's our free will to accept or embrace Jesus as you put it or to reject Him?

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Yes, I'm not even sure what an unwilling faith in something would look like. Deja vu

ramblin_ag02 said:

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You can't have it both ways, though. Jesus definitely called Judas, and Judas definitely accepted the call. Whether he had a choice to reject that call is a point of disagreement between you and me. Regardless, Jesus calls Judas and Judas accepts. Judas is now one of the Chosen, the Elect in the most literal sense. Yet Judas betrays Jesus. In my mind, Judas had a choice until the very last moment to change his mind (and the parenthetical comment in John 6 was made by the author after the fact as an opinion). So this action causes no issues for me.

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Nothing you're saying is in disagreement with me. Judas made choices, but everything happened according to God's will.

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However, this scenario is a big problem for Calvinists. Judas was called directly by God to be Elect. He was given irresistable grace. He was one of the Chosen of the Chosen. Yet he still betrayed Jesus. He was still depraved and sinful despite being as close to Jesus as anyone. I guess you could say that Jesus didn't really Call Judas. Maybe it was more like a fake Call to trick Judas into hanging around so he could be evil and vile when it needed to be. All Jesus would have to do is lie about Judas being a real disciple and then intentionally withhold God's grace from Judas so that Judas could still be depraved enough to fulfill prophecy. You know, like all loving messiahs would.

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What makes you think Judas was saved by grace through faith? His actions clearly prove he wasn't. One, Judas is clearly prophesied to betray Jesus which means he was never going to be a true believer. Two, this is made abundantly clear in John 6.

60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?" 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, "Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you want to go away as well?" 68 Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God." 70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil." 71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray him.


The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Jn 6:6071.

Judas was a devil. He was going to betray Christ. He was also chosen, but also held completely responsible for his actions. If you want to argue he was saved by grace through faith, go ahead but there is zero scripture to support that and it is pure speculation.

Bob_Ag said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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You can't have it both ways, though. Jesus definitely called Judas, and Judas definitely accepted the call. Whether he had a choice to reject that call is a point of disagreement between you and me. Regardless, Jesus calls Judas and Judas accepts. Judas is now one of the Chosen, the Elect in the most literal sense. Yet Judas betrays Jesus. In my mind, Judas had a choice until the very last moment to change his mind (and the parenthetical comment in John 6 was made by the author after the fact as an opinion). So this action causes no issues for me.

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Nothing you're saying is in disagreement with me. Judas made choices, but everything happened according to God's will.

Quote:

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However, this scenario is a big problem for Calvinists. Judas was called directly by God to be Elect. He was given irresistable grace. He was one of the Chosen of the Chosen. Yet he still betrayed Jesus. He was still depraved and sinful despite being as close to Jesus as anyone. I guess you could say that Jesus didn't really Call Judas. Maybe it was more like a fake Call to trick Judas into hanging around so he could be evil and vile when it needed to be. All Jesus would have to do is lie about Judas being a real disciple and then intentionally withhold God's grace from Judas so that Judas could still be depraved enough to fulfill prophecy. You know, like all loving messiahs would.

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What makes you think Judas was saved by grace through faith? His actions clearly prove he wasn't. One, Judas is clearly prophesied to betray Jesus which means he was never going to be a true believer. Two, this is made abundantly clear in John 6.

60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?" 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, "Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you want to go away as well?" 68 Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God." 70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil." 71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray him.


The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Jn 6:6071.

Judas was a devil. He was going to betray Christ. He was also chosen, but also held completely responsible for his actions. If you want to argue he was saved by grace through faith, go ahead but there is zero scripture to support that and it is pure speculation.

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So you're saying that Jesus called Judas to his side so Judas could sin, and then withheld all grace from Judas in order to make it happen?