Mostly Peaceful said:

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dermdoc said:

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Mostly Peaceful said:

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dermdoc said:

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dermdoc said:

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How do you interpret

This is good and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 2 3-4.

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Did any Calvinists on here address this verse and their interpretation of it?

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To be clear, I don't consider myself a calvinist. I just think they're being grossly misrepresented. That link gives a fair assessment in some areas, but not others. Calvinists have no problem with 1 Timothy 2:3-4. They firmly believe God wants all people to be saved.

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Then explain Calvin's quote about God choosing some for eternal destruction? How can you believe God desires all to be saved with that statement?

I think most modern day Calvinists have zero idea of what Calvinism really entails theologically.

And I think that is what you are describing. Calvinists bs actual true Calvinism.

I am extremely happy most do not adhere to strict interpretation of Calvinism.

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You are assuming that God predestining some to life and some to death, which is what Calvin believed, means that the non-elect are condemned against their will. That is not correct.

"It is the will of God that we should seek the salvation of all men without exception, as Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world."

"Though Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, and is offered through God's benignity indiscriminately to all, yet all do not receive him."

These are Calvin quotes.

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I posted a direct quote from Calvin saying God condemns some to eternal destruction, correct?

And he did not believe in free will as in a person accepting or rejecting God, correct?

You can call it "passing over" or whatever, but Calvin clearly believed God condemns some to eternal hell.

Thankfully, I do not believe most modern day Reformed or proclaimed Calvinists agree with that theology.

Or they would be scared to death of having kids.

Jesus chose Judas because He knew Judas would make a choice to betray him. Judas made the choice. God didn't force Judas to betray Him. Just like the blind man that was blind from birth. Jesus says he was blind so that He could heal him and display the works of God. Yet after the healing Jesus asks him a question. If he believes. And the man replies yes. So here we tbe predestination of life circumstances and a free will choice. John 9.

Also Romans 9 explains the very same thing. Pre-ordained life circumstances but individuals making their own choices.

Quote:

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Let's use a clear illustration from the Bible.

Judas, the perditious man, was chosen by Christ to be a disciple (meaning he did not have a choice to not be a disciple). He fulfilled prophecy and Jesus foreknew his betrayal as is clearly stated in John's Gospel. There was no way that Judas was not going to be the one to betray Christ, it was predestined, and that is not an arguable fact. It is as true as the second coming of Christ. However, at the very same time, he was held responsible by God for his actions and his will.

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There are a whole lot of assumptions being stuffed in here. We have no reason to believe that Jesus compelled people to be his disciples. What makes you think that Judas had no choice in the matter? Show your work here. Seems to me like a completely voluntary situation.

Next, we don't have any proof that Jesus foreknew Judas' betrayal. By the time Jesus accused Judas during the Last Supper, Judas had already met with the Sanhedrin and agreed to betray Jesus. Judas had already made his choice. Now Jesus only had to point out that he was aware of the choice that Judas had already made. Jesus was destined to be executed, but that doesn't mean a disciple would betray him. Maybe it would have worked the same with Jesus turning himself in after his prayer in the garden, and maybe one or all of his disciples betraying him didn't make the slightest bit of difference in the grand scheme. So to say "that is not an arguable fact" betrays a large amount of hubris. You don't know any better than I do.

So then Judas was held responsible for his own actions, but not directly by God. Judas killed himself over the guilt. It's not like he was swallowed by a whale or struck dead instantly. And you nor I know for sure the disposition of Judas' soul. For someone "arguing facts" you sure are making a lot of assumptions, jumping to conclusions, and trying to pass it off as truth.

Yukon Cornelius said:

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Jesus chose Judas because He knew Judas would make a choice to betray him. Judas made the choice. God didn't force Judas to betray Him. Just like the blind man that was blind from birth. Jesus says he was blind so that He could heal him and display the works of God. Yet after the healing Jesus asks him a question. If he believes. And the man replies yes. So here we tbe predestination of life circumstances and a free will choice. John 9.

Also Romans 9 explains the very same thing. Pre-ordained life circumstances but individuals making their own choices.

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Yes, now you get it. Congratulations you're a Calvinist.

That's not what they believe. I can prove it. Explain the process of salvation:

Yukon Cornelius said:

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That's not what they believe. I can prove it. Explain the process of salvation:

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Every reformed standard document I've read says that man's choice is not removed.
Belgic Confession of Faith
39 Articles of Religion
Canons of Dort
Heidelberg Catechism
Westminster Confession of Faith
Westminster Shorter and Larger Catechisms
London Baptist Confession of Faith

All maintain what you said: Pre-ordained life circumstances but individuals making their own choices.

Or as Peter puts it: "this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men."

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Quote:

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Let's use a clear illustration from the Bible.

Judas, the perditious man, was chosen by Christ to be a disciple (meaning he did not have a choice to not be a disciple). He fulfilled prophecy and Jesus foreknew his betrayal as is clearly stated in John's Gospel. There was no way that Judas was not going to be the one to betray Christ, it was predestined, and that is not an arguable fact. It is as true as the second coming of Christ. However, at the very same time, he was held responsible by God for his actions and his will.

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There are a whole lot of assumptions being stuffed in here. We have no reason to believe that Jesus compelled people to be his disciples. What makes you think that Judas had no choice in the matter? Show your work here. Seems to me like a completely voluntary situation.

Next, we don't have any proof that Jesus foreknew Judas' betrayal. By the time Jesus accused Judas during the Last Supper, Judas had already met with the Sanhedrin and agreed to betray Jesus. Judas had already made his choice. Now Jesus only had to point out that he was aware of the choice that Judas had already made. Jesus was destined to be executed, but that doesn't mean a disciple would betray him. Maybe it would have worked the same with Jesus turning himself in after his prayer in the garden, and maybe one or all of his disciples betraying him didn't make the slightest bit of difference in the grand scheme. So to say "that is not an arguable fact" betrays a large amount of hubris. You don't know any better than I do.

So then Judas was held responsible for his own actions, but not directly by God. Judas killed himself over the guilt. It's not like he was swallowed by a whale or struck dead instantly. And you nor I know for sure the disposition of Judas' soul. For someone "arguing facts" you sure are making a lot of assumptions, jumping to conclusions, and trying to pass it off as truth.

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Say what?

John 15:16 (ESV): 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

John 13:1819 (ESV): 18 I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, 'He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.' 19 I am telling you this now, before it takes place, that when it does take place you may believe that I am he.

John 6:64 (ESV): 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)

How do they reconcile that with total depravity, unconditional election, and irreducible grace?

Where is the choice or free will?

Yes, those are definitely Bible verses

dermdoc said:

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I posted a direct quote from Calvin saying God condemns some to eternal destruction, correct?

Correct

And he did not believe in free will as in a person accepting or rejecting God, correct?

Incorrect

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Calvin believed no one will choose God apart from His grace. Grace enables us to freely choose Him. This is the Arminian view as well. Only the Pelagian view says we can choose God apart from His grace.

Calvin believed men freely reject God. There is no coercion. How does this all work? Don't ask me.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9.

Mostly Peaceful said:

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dermdoc said:

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I posted a direct quote from Calvin saying God condemns some to eternal destruction, correct?

Correct

And he did not believe in free will as in a person accepting or rejecting God, correct?

Incorrect

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Calvin believed no one will choose God apart from His grace. Grace enables us to freely choose Him. This is the Arminian view as well. Only the Pelagian view says we can choose God apart from His grace.

Calvin believed men freely reject God. There is no coercion. How does this all work? Don't ask me.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9.

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Yes, those are definitely Bible verses

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Ok, let's just repeat what the scripture says with no assumptions involved.

Jesus chose his 12 disciples.
They did not choose him.
Jesus knew in the future who would betray him.
Judas fulfilled preordained prophecy.
Judas was held responsible for his betrayal.

The plain reading tells us Judas by his own choice fulfilled an event he was predestined to do via prophecy. There is no other interpretation.

Man is responsible, but God is sovereign over everything.

You can't have it both ways, though. Jesus definitely called Judas, and Judas definitely accepted the call. Whether he had a choice to reject that call is a point of disagreement between you and me. Regardless, Jesus calls Judas and Judas accepts. Judas is now one of the Chosen, the Elect in the most literal sense. Yet Judas betrays Jesus. In my mind, Judas had a choice until the very last moment to change his mind (and the parenthetical comment in John 6 was made by the author after the fact as an opinion). So this action causes no issues for me.

However, this scenario is a big problem for Calvinists. Judas was called directly by God to be Elect. He was given irresistable grace. He was one of the Chosen of the Chosen. Yet he still betrayed Jesus. He was still depraved and sinful despite being as close to Jesus as anyone. I guess you could say that Jesus didn't really Call Judas. Maybe it was more like a fake Call to trick Judas into hanging around so he could be evil and vile when it needed to be. All Jesus would have to do is lie about Judas being a real disciple and then intentionally withhold God's grace from Judas so that Judas could still be depraved enough to fulfill prophecy. You know, like all loving messiahs would.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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That's not what they believe. I can prove it. Explain the process of salvation:

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Every reformed standard document I've read says that man's choice is not removed.
Belgic Confession of Faith
39 Articles of Religion
Canons of Dort
Heidelberg Catechism
Westminster Confession of Faith
Westminster Shorter and Larger Catechisms
London Baptist Confession of Faith

All maintain what you said: Pre-ordained life circumstances but individuals making their own choices.

Or as Peter puts it: "this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men."

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So you referenced some writings and included a quote by Peter but didn't do the simple thing I asked.

Explain the process of salvation:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/predestination-what-does-mean-non-elect

Yukon Cornelius said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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That's not what they believe. I can prove it. Explain the process of salvation:

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Every reformed standard document I've read says that man's choice is not removed.
Belgic Confession of Faith
39 Articles of Religion
Canons of Dort
Heidelberg Catechism
Westminster Confession of Faith
Westminster Shorter and Larger Catechisms
London Baptist Confession of Faith

All maintain what you said: Pre-ordained life circumstances but individuals making their own choices.

Or as Peter puts it: "this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men."

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So you referenced some writings and included a quote by Peter but didn't do the simple thing I asked.

Explain the process of salvation:

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I can very easily.

Man sinned, God sent Jesus who died for all of our sins, we have a choice as to whether we accept God's grace through faith. Or reject Him.

God allows people to reject Him for eternity due to His love.

Amen brother.

Yukon Cornelius said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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That's not what they believe. I can prove it. Explain the process of salvation:

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Every reformed standard document I've read says that man's choice is not removed.
Belgic Confession of Faith
39 Articles of Religion
Canons of Dort
Heidelberg Catechism
Westminster Confession of Faith
Westminster Shorter and Larger Catechisms
London Baptist Confession of Faith

All maintain what you said: Pre-ordained life circumstances but individuals making their own choices.

Or as Peter puts it: "this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men."

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So you referenced some writings and included a quote by Peter but didn't do the simple thing I asked.

Explain the process of salvation:

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I was responding to your statement "That's not what they believe." (that God's sovereignty removes man's culpability). Those documents prove you wrong.

I disagree. Explain the process of salvation.

The one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of His Father before all worlds: God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made; being of one substance with the Father, by Whom all things were made: Who for us men and for our salvation came down from Heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into Heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father. And He shall come again with glory to judge both the living and the dead whose kingdom shall have no end.

a list of details about the faith in Christ from the Symbol of Faith isn't exactly an answer to his question.

aside, I really don't think the translation "and was made man" is correct. It is very passive, and implies in English He was made to be man by an external actor or force. We don't say "He was made incarnate" even though that is similar construction -- sarkothenta (sarx, flesh) and enanthropisanta (anthropos, Man or mankind). To use the same mode or voice of translating a "was incarnate" you would say something like "was en-manned". Our rubrics say "became Man" which I think is much clearer. Also it seems just for clarity, Man should be capitalized...the symbol of faith isn't saying He merely became a man, but became Man, anthropos. These are addressing Christological heresies, and the confession here is that He really took flesh, and not just the appearance of flesh, and that He really became united with our nature, He became Man.

And how does one become saved?

Yukon Cornelius said:

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And how does one become saved?

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That is easy. You accept God's grace through faith in Christ alone to forgive you of your sins.

So your old life is dead. You are born again and the Holy Spirit is in you. And will never leave you.

Yukon Cornelius said:

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And how does one become saved?

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Become saved? Embrace the Lord Jesus Christ by faith as the only relief from your sins.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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And how does one become saved?

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Become saved? Embrace the Lord Jesus Christ by faith as the only relief from your sins.

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Excellent. One must choose Jesus!

Yukon Cornelius said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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And how does one become saved?

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Become saved? Embrace the Lord Jesus Christ by faith as the only relief from your sins.

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Excellent. One must choose Jesus!

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I'm not even sure what an unwilling faith in something would look like.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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And how does one become saved?

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Become saved? Embrace the Lord Jesus Christ by faith as the only relief from your sins.

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Excellent. One must choose Jesus!

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I'm not even sure what an unwilling faith in something would look like.

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Unconditional election?

Irresistible grace?

dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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And how does one become saved?

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Become saved? Embrace the Lord Jesus Christ by faith as the only relief from your sins.

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Excellent. One must choose Jesus!

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I'm not even sure what an unwilling faith in something would look like.

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Unconditional election?

Irresistible grace?

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Unwilling faith?

Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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And how does one become saved?

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Become saved? Embrace the Lord Jesus Christ by faith as the only relief from your sins.

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Excellent. One must choose Jesus!

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I'm not even sure what an unwilling faith in something would look like.

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Unconditional election?

Irresistible grace?

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Unwilling faith?

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Do those two terms imply you have a choice?

dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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And how does one become saved?

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Become saved? Embrace the Lord Jesus Christ by faith as the only relief from your sins.

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Excellent. One must choose Jesus!

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I'm not even sure what an unwilling faith in something would look like.

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Unconditional election?

Irresistible grace?

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Unwilling faith?

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Do those two terms imply you have a choice?

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What two terms?

Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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And how does one become saved?

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Become saved? Embrace the Lord Jesus Christ by faith as the only relief from your sins.

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Excellent. One must choose Jesus!

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I'm not even sure what an unwilling faith in something would look like.

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Unconditional election?

Irresistible grace?

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Unwilling faith?

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Do those two terms imply you have a choice?

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What two terms?

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Irresistible (defined as you can not resist) grace

Unconditional election (which to me means you can not refuse it)

dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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And how does one become saved?

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Become saved? Embrace the Lord Jesus Christ by faith as the only relief from your sins.

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Excellent. One must choose Jesus!

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I'm not even sure what an unwilling faith in something would look like.

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Unconditional election?

Irresistible grace?

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Unwilling faith?

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Do those two terms imply you have a choice?

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What two terms?

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Irresistible (defined as you can not resist) grace

Unconditional election (which to me means you can not refuse it)

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You posted those, not me. Did they come from the documents I posted or something?

Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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And how does one become saved?

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Become saved? Embrace the Lord Jesus Christ by faith as the only relief from your sins.

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Excellent. One must choose Jesus!

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I'm not even sure what an unwilling faith in something would look like.

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Unconditional election?

Irresistible grace?

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Unwilling faith?

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Do those two terms imply you have a choice?

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What two terms?

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Irresistible (defined as you can not resist) grace

Unconditional election (which to me means you can not refuse it)

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You posted those, not me. Did they come from the documents I posted or something?

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Didn't you post about unwilling faith?

dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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And how does one become saved?

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Become saved? Embrace the Lord Jesus Christ by faith as the only relief from your sins.

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Excellent. One must choose Jesus!

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I'm not even sure what an unwilling faith in something would look like.

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Unconditional election?

Irresistible grace?

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Unwilling faith?

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Do those two terms imply you have a choice?

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What two terms?

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Irresistible (defined as you can not resist) grace

Unconditional election (which to me means you can not refuse it)

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You posted those, not me. Did they come from the documents I posted or something?

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Didn't you post about unwilling faith?

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Yes, I think it's a ridiculous notion. To believe in something unwillingly? It would be the same a "resistible grace." How does a believer resist grace? It's a contradiction.

Unconditional election I take it to mean that God's election is not conditioned by any quality or work we have done. I think that's true.