Yukon Cornelius said:

---

Your conclusions on what those verses mean must align with the entirety of scripture. And the conclusion you are a drawing does not. It is in contradiction to scripture. The Gospel message is we are all sinners. We are separated from God. We have Jesus who died and rose again and Atoned for our sins. We either accept His offering or reject it by faith. There is no fine print that says only applies to those God has pre-selected.

---

Exactly.

The majority of Christians do not interpret election as Calvin did. And looking at the entire Bible, it is pretty obvious to me that the Gospel is offered to all men to accept or reject.

Verses shows God desires all to be saved, I bring you good news to all men, I stand at the door and knock,etc.

It is clear to me we must respond.

dermdoc said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

So you do believe in double predestination?

---

Please define it first.

---

That God pre ordains who the elect are. And passes over the rest to be damned forever.

The elect can not lose their Salvation and everybody else can not gain it.

---

Yes, of course. The reason I asked you to define it is because the idea can be misconstrued that God is forcing sinners to sin. God is not sitting there making people sin and their condemnation is of their own doing. Ephesians 1 makes it clear that some of mankind is predestined to adoption to himself as sons through Christ. A remnant was chosen before the foundation of the world and by doing so, some will have obtained an inheritance in Him.

Quote:

---

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

---

There is no other way to interpret this passage. But like I said, predestination is not about elitism. It's about recognizing God is sovereign, and man is not in control. I'm not surprised people struggle with this doctrine because it is in our very nature to not comprehend it.
We want to believe that it is ultimately us who decide and God has to oblige us if we make that choice. Don't get it twisted though, He does want man to choose him, but mans will is to be sinful. That's why salvation is by grace and if man were left to decide, then it wouldn't be grace. Grace is a reward for something not earned. If all man must do is make the right choice, then they are in effect earning it and it is no longer grace.

This is what Paul is referring to in Romans 11 when talking about the elect remnant of Israel.

Quote:

---

5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened

---

Amen

Yukon Cornelius said:

---

Your conclusions on what those verses mean must align with the entirety of scripture. And the conclusion you are a drawing does not. It is in contradiction to scripture. The Gospel message is we are all sinners. We are separated from God. We have Jesus who died and rose again and Atoned for our sins. We either accept His offering or reject it by faith. There is no fine print that says only applies to those God has pre-selected.

---

John 6:44
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

The problem is, you are just glossing over "we are all sinners and we are separated from God".
Once again, the notion that you think corrupted man can choose a holy and pure God against his sinful will is the epitome of pride.

AgLiving06 said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

Yukon Cornelius said:

---

I would say examples of election in scripture is descriptive in those scenarios but not prescriptive for all of humanity.

Write the Gospel message. How do you write a Gospel message with the idea that some are chosen and predestined to receive salvation and others are not. I'm seriously asking. What is the Gospel message from a reformed theology perspective? Where is the Hope of salvation? Where is the work of Jesus made manifest if first you have to be pre-selected to benefit from it?

---

Really? Is God prescriptive enough for you here?

Quote:

---

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace

---

Or here?

Quote:

---

2 Timothy 1
9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

---

I'm just not sure how more abundantly clear the Bible can make election.

I've posted the Gospel over and over again in this thread. You recognize your corrupted will and you plead with God for grace just like the Publican. It's not complicated. God opposes the proud. Stop thinking man has any say in the matter. It's not about us, its about Christ as we are his gift, his bride. "All that the Father gives me" he says in John 6, "he will raise up".

You are caught up in the end result and what you are completely missing is the process. God writes his laws on our hearts and unhardens it (Ezekiel 36). He regenerates us. He gives us the will to want him and to turn from sin. How else could we possibly turn from our corrupted sinful bias without divine intervention on our hearts and minds?

Have you ever considered deeply why man has to literally have the Holy Spirit, a sovereign deity, indwelling in us, to sanctify us in the image of Christ? Its because its not possible to do that on our own. So in what world do you think you are capable of justifying yourself before a holy God of your own power and volition? How many times can the scriptures tell us it is by grace we are saved before we believe it. No work of man involved.

The Gospel starts with recognizing your depravity and powerless over sin. The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are one big example of the types of people God chooses and it is sinners who recognize their sin. The Gospels are also one big example of who Jesus opposes, and its the proud. The people like the Pharisees that think they are in control of their salvation by righteous works.

---

Your prooftext of 2 Timothy is wildly out of context if the claim is that somehow is directed to the elect.

You quotes verse 9...but who is the "us" that has a special calling?

Quote:

---

3 I thank God whom I serve, as did my ancestors, with a clear conscience, as I remember you constantly in my prayers night and day. 4 As I remember your tears, I long to see you, that I may be filled with joy. 5 I am reminded of your sincere faith, a faith that dwelt first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice and now, I am sure, dwells in you as well. 6 For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands, 7 for God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.

---

Unless Lois and Eunice are meant to be generic to "all grandmothers and mothers" (it's not), then we see that this is a specific letter to Timothy, and the "called to a holy calling" refers to their role as Preacher/Teacher.

---

Ok, I don't agree, but either way I'll concede your point for a moment. There's still John 6, John 10, John 17, Ephesians 1, Romans 8 and 9, 1 Peter 1, and more. That's on top of the whole Old Testament story of a chosen people by God (Deut 32).

Yes. We are all drawn to God. Even nature is a tool by God to call us so we are without excuse. God is calling everyone.

You are making the fundamental claim someone cannot repent and that to do so to think so is prideful. Consider what you are saying. To make such a claim that despite Jesus saying to repent and others saying to repent and Gods word saying to repent we cannot repent. You must scripturally prove that we being evil we cannot repent.

Where's the scripture? You are the making the claim.

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."
Romans 1:18-20 ESV

God has revealed Himself and called everyone. Not some.

The OT Israelites are point and case the predestination isn't to be taken the way reformed take it. Romans 11 Paul's makes the case. Despite being predestined to be Jews etc they have been caught off for lack of faith. And to the grafted in he warns they too can be cutoff. So it's clear it's not a matter of how one enters this life but if they have faith in Jesus.

I really pray some of y'all seriously stop and think about the implications of your doctrine.

What hope does a lost person have? Try and seriously articulate what their hope is?

Bob_Ag said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

Yukon Cornelius said:

---

I would say examples of election in scripture is descriptive in those scenarios but not prescriptive for all of humanity.

Write the Gospel message. How do you write a Gospel message with the idea that some are chosen and predestined to receive salvation and others are not. I'm seriously asking. What is the Gospel message from a reformed theology perspective? Where is the Hope of salvation? Where is the work of Jesus made manifest if first you have to be pre-selected to benefit from it?

---

Really? Is God prescriptive enough for you here?

Quote:

---

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace

---

Or here?

Quote:

---

2 Timothy 1
9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

---

I'm just not sure how more abundantly clear the Bible can make election.

I've posted the Gospel over and over again in this thread. You recognize your corrupted will and you plead with God for grace just like the Publican. It's not complicated. God opposes the proud. Stop thinking man has any say in the matter. It's not about us, its about Christ as we are his gift, his bride. "All that the Father gives me" he says in John 6, "he will raise up".

You are caught up in the end result and what you are completely missing is the process. God writes his laws on our hearts and unhardens it (Ezekiel 36). He regenerates us. He gives us the will to want him and to turn from sin. How else could we possibly turn from our corrupted sinful bias without divine intervention on our hearts and minds?

Have you ever considered deeply why man has to literally have the Holy Spirit, a sovereign deity, indwelling in us, to sanctify us in the image of Christ? Its because its not possible to do that on our own. So in what world do you think you are capable of justifying yourself before a holy God of your own power and volition? How many times can the scriptures tell us it is by grace we are saved before we believe it. No work of man involved.

The Gospel starts with recognizing your depravity and powerless over sin. The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are one big example of the types of people God chooses and it is sinners who recognize their sin. The Gospels are also one big example of who Jesus opposes, and its the proud. The people like the Pharisees that think they are in control of their salvation by righteous works.

---

Your prooftext of 2 Timothy is wildly out of context if the claim is that somehow is directed to the elect.

You quotes verse 9...but who is the "us" that has a special calling?

Quote:

---

3 I thank God whom I serve, as did my ancestors, with a clear conscience, as I remember you constantly in my prayers night and day. 4 As I remember your tears, I long to see you, that I may be filled with joy. 5 I am reminded of your sincere faith, a faith that dwelt first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice and now, I am sure, dwells in you as well. 6 For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands, 7 for God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.

---

Unless Lois and Eunice are meant to be generic to "all grandmothers and mothers" (it's not), then we see that this is a specific letter to Timothy, and the "called to a holy calling" refers to their role as Preacher/Teacher.

---

Ok, I don't agree, but either way I'll concede your point for a moment. There's still John 6, John 10, John 17, Ephesians 1, Romans 8 and 9, 1 Peter 1, and more. That's on top of the whole Old Testament story of a chosen people by God (Deut 32).

---

So how can you have kids knowing they could be "passed over" and spend eternity in hell?

And they never had a chance.

How do you interpret

This is good and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 2 3-4.

Bob_Ag said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

So you do believe in double predestination?

---

Please define it first.

---

That God pre ordains who the elect are. And passes over the rest to be damned forever.

The elect can not lose their Salvation and everybody else can not gain it.

---

Yes, of course. The reason I asked you to define it is because the idea can be misconstrued that God is forcing sinners to sin. God is not sitting there making people sin and their condemnation is of their own doing. Ephesians 1 makes it clear that some of mankind is predestined to adoption to himself as sons through Christ. A remnant was chosen before the foundation of the world and by doing so, some will have obtained an inheritance in Him.

Quote:

---

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

---

There is no other way to interpret this passage. But like I said, predestination is not about elitism. It's about recognizing God is sovereign, and man is not in control. I'm not surprised people struggle with this doctrine because it is in our very nature to not comprehend it.
We want to believe that it is ultimately us who decide and God has to oblige us if we make that choice. Don't get it twisted though, He does want man to choose him, but mans will is to be sinful. That's why salvation is by grace and if man were left to decide, then it wouldn't be grace. Grace is a reward for something not earned. If all man must do is make the right choice, then they are in effect earning it and it is no longer grace.

This is what Paul is referring to in Romans 11 when talking about the elect remnant of Israel.

Quote:

---

5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened

---

---

Obviously there are other ways to interpret this passage.

https://orthodoxchristiantheology.com/2017/03/17/thought-experiment-an-anti-reformed-view-of-ephesians/

Bob_Ag said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

Yukon Cornelius said:

---

I would say examples of election in scripture is descriptive in those scenarios but not prescriptive for all of humanity.

Write the Gospel message. How do you write a Gospel message with the idea that some are chosen and predestined to receive salvation and others are not. I'm seriously asking. What is the Gospel message from a reformed theology perspective? Where is the Hope of salvation? Where is the work of Jesus made manifest if first you have to be pre-selected to benefit from it?

---

Really? Is God prescriptive enough for you here?

Quote:

---

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace

---

Or here?

Quote:

---

2 Timothy 1
9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

---

I'm just not sure how more abundantly clear the Bible can make election.

I've posted the Gospel over and over again in this thread. You recognize your corrupted will and you plead with God for grace just like the Publican. It's not complicated. God opposes the proud. Stop thinking man has any say in the matter. It's not about us, its about Christ as we are his gift, his bride. "All that the Father gives me" he says in John 6, "he will raise up".

You are caught up in the end result and what you are completely missing is the process. God writes his laws on our hearts and unhardens it (Ezekiel 36). He regenerates us. He gives us the will to want him and to turn from sin. How else could we possibly turn from our corrupted sinful bias without divine intervention on our hearts and minds?

Have you ever considered deeply why man has to literally have the Holy Spirit, a sovereign deity, indwelling in us, to sanctify us in the image of Christ? Its because its not possible to do that on our own. So in what world do you think you are capable of justifying yourself before a holy God of your own power and volition? How many times can the scriptures tell us it is by grace we are saved before we believe it. No work of man involved.

The Gospel starts with recognizing your depravity and powerless over sin. The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are one big example of the types of people God chooses and it is sinners who recognize their sin. The Gospels are also one big example of who Jesus opposes, and its the proud. The people like the Pharisees that think they are in control of their salvation by righteous works.

---

Your prooftext of 2 Timothy is wildly out of context if the claim is that somehow is directed to the elect.

You quotes verse 9...but who is the "us" that has a special calling?

Quote:

---

3 I thank God whom I serve, as did my ancestors, with a clear conscience, as I remember you constantly in my prayers night and day. 4 As I remember your tears, I long to see you, that I may be filled with joy. 5 I am reminded of your sincere faith, a faith that dwelt first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice and now, I am sure, dwells in you as well. 6 For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands, 7 for God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.

---

Unless Lois and Eunice are meant to be generic to "all grandmothers and mothers" (it's not), then we see that this is a specific letter to Timothy, and the "called to a holy calling" refers to their role as Preacher/Teacher.

---

Ok, I don't agree, but either way I'll concede your point for a moment. There's still John 6, John 10, John 17, Ephesians 1, Romans 8 and 9, 1 Peter 1, and more. That's on top of the whole Old Testament story of a chosen people by God (Deut 32).

---

You don't agree with what Paul wrote? All I did was paste exactly what he wrote, which gave the actual context of who he was writing the letter to. The only way to get to your view is to remove the context and apply a secondary meaning.

You mentioned John 6:44. Lets look at more than just verse 44, again for context, because Jesus does not end his thought there.

41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." 42 They said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, 'I have come down from heaven'?"

43 Jesus answered them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh."


I added the break between verse 42 and 43 because it's a question and answer and wanted to differentiate the wall of text

First question: Can someone know Jesus on their own without hearing the Word of God?

Second question: When Jesus uses "everyone" or "whoever believes" that does not seem to be a limiter on who can come, but on who will hear and learn from the Father right?

Third question: He says if anyone eats, he will live forever? Are you claiming God will actively keep the reprobate from eating?

How do you scare the open-endedness of Jesus in John 5? Jesus does not limit who will hear his voice, or even who will believe.

19 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.


25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Fouth question: Do we have any references to the dead (hint eph 2:1).

Fifth question: So is it possible that when Jesus speaks of the dead, is he not referring to everyone who is spiritually dead, who God will awaken with a spiritual rebirth?

And so on.

So do you have kids?

How can you when if they are not elect at God's decision they spend eternity in hell?

You won't get an answer. I have a family member who prays for their children to have been predestined. It's tough. But if you ascribe to it what else can you do? It's sad to see first hand.

Yukon Cornelius said:

---

You won't get an answer. I have a family member who prays for their children to have been predestined. It's tough. But if you ascribe to it what else can you do? It's sad to see first hand.

---

dermdoc said:

---

And they will say they are the one true brand of Christianity and say we are all condemned.

Regular as I used to be.

---

Woah. What calvinist says you are condemned?

The Bible teaches divine sovereignty and human responsibility. How those go together I have no idea. I also have no idea how God can be 3 and 1 at the same time. Or how Jesus is fully God and fully man. But the Bible teaches it, so I believe it. The many paradoxes in Scripture speaks to its divine nature in my opinion.

I also believe that my children were predestined before the foundation of the world. The sad reality is - many parents won't have 100% of their children saved. I pray that mine will know Jesus. I trust God's sovereign will in that He works all things for good to those who love Him. How that could mean my children won't receive God's grace, I have no idea. But I trust Him.

Mostly Peaceful said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

And they will say they are the one true brand of Christianity and say we are all condemned.

Regular as I used to be.

---

Woah. What calvinist says you are condemned?

The Bible teaches divine sovereignty and human responsibility. How those go together I have no idea. I also have no idea how God can be 3 and 1 at the same time. Or how Jesus is fully God and fully man. But the Bible teaches it, so I believe it. The many paradoxes in Scripture speaks to its divine nature in my opinion.

I also believe that my children were predestined before the foundation of the world. The sad reality is - many parents won't have 100% of their children saved. I pray that mine will know Jesus. I trust God's sovereign will in that He works all things for good to those who love Him. How that could mean my children won't receive God's grace, I have no idea. But I trust Him.

---

Well if you are not of the elect you are condemned correct?

You sound like a very Christ loving person and I love that.


Have you really thought about Calvinist theology?

So what if one of your children has been before they were born to be "passed over" and condemned to hell without a chance?

dermdoc said:

---

Mostly Peaceful said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

And they will say they are the one true brand of Christianity and say we are all condemned.

Regular as I used to be.

---

Woah. What calvinist says you are condemned?

The Bible teaches divine sovereignty and human responsibility. How those go together I have no idea. I also have no idea how God can be 3 and 1 at the same time. Or how Jesus is fully God and fully man. But the Bible teaches it, so I believe it. The many paradoxes in Scripture speaks to its divine nature in my opinion.

I also believe that my children were predestined before the foundation of the world. The sad reality is - many parents won't have 100% of their children saved. I pray that mine will know Jesus. I trust God's sovereign will in that He works all things for good to those who love Him. How that could mean my children won't receive God's grace, I have no idea. But I trust Him.

---

Well if you are not of the elect you are condemned correct?

You sound like a very Christ loving person and I love that.


Have you really thought about Calvinist theology?

So what if one of your children has been before they were born to be "passed over" and condemned to hell without a chance?

---

Yes, I do believe only the elect will be saved. But I don't think there is a mandatory way to think about election in order to be part of the elect. Any one who repents and believes is saved.

I have thought a lot about calvinist theology. I've gone from hating it to not liking it. The main reason I don't like it is because I agree that it seems to point to many of the conclusions you've drawn. It's not because I don't think it has biblical support.

I'm not sure how to answer the last question. I do believe their salvation is based on them being part of the elect. But I don't think not being part of the elect must mean God prevented them from receiving His grace. I totally agree how that appears to be the case though.

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Regarding the second, I get it. I guess another possibility emerges from a strictly Christian viewpoint. God existed from the beginning, and Christ is God. Existence was created through Christ. The decisions of Adam and Eve led to the deaths of men. Christ has an eternal human nature, including the ability to suffer and die. Since existence was created through Christ, suffering and death was baked into the fabric of reality from the start. So the death and suffering that exists prior to man could still be due to man, but only because Christ is both man and God and also fabric of existence

---

I get what you are saying here, but it feels pretty forced. It basically involves a causal paradox and I hate that like I hate almost every time travel movie and at the end of the day, it's not like god didn't play his own role in making an imperfect creation that was going to fall and corrupt part two of the trinity. Fundamentally I don't really think time travel backwards exists, nor backwards causation.

It also makes god, at least the jesus part of the god trinity as fundamentally imperfect and flawed. But you bring up an argument I hadn't heard before. I'd never heard of jesus being regarded as fully man before the incarnation. The second person of the trinity, the Son, the word, being eternal in christian dogma is nothing new. But I always understood the being fully man, as something he subjected himself to, "made himself lower than the angels" ect. And from then on was fully man and fully god.

It doesn't really even make sense to me to call the 2nd person of the trinity, or the word or whatever fully-or even a little bit, "man" when it existed as a nameless non-corporeal third of part of one omni-person. Without the incarnation the word of god has no body and isn't named yeshua. Unless we are calling "man" something pretty different than what I'm imagining.

Bob_Ag said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

So you do believe in double predestination?

---

Please define it first.

---

That God pre ordains who the elect are. And passes over the rest to be damned forever.

The elect can not lose their Salvation and everybody else can not gain it.

---

Yes, of course. The reason I asked you to define it is because the idea can be misconstrued that God is forcing sinners to sin. God is not sitting there making people sin and their condemnation is of their own doing. Ephesians 1 makes it clear that some of mankind is predestined to adoption to himself as sons through Christ. A remnant was chosen before the foundation of the world and by doing so, some will have obtained an inheritance in Him.

Quote:

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3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

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There is no other way to interpret this passage. But like I said, predestination is not about elitism. It's about recognizing God is sovereign, and man is not in control. I'm not surprised people struggle with this doctrine because it is in our very nature to not comprehend it.
We want to believe that it is ultimately us who decide and God has to oblige us if we make that choice. Don't get it twisted though, He does want man to choose him, but mans will is to be sinful. That's why salvation is by grace and if man were left to decide, then it wouldn't be grace. Grace is a reward for something not earned. If all man must do is make the right choice, then they are in effect earning it and it is no longer grace.

This is what Paul is referring to in Romans 11 when talking about the elect remnant of Israel.

Quote:

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5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened

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Wooooooow....that was the most convoluted circular logic to say- God is gonna save and give grace to those who he is going to save no matter what we do.....

That is a completely backwards and nihilistic way of looking at grace.

We can never be worthy of grace, but we do have to ask for it amd we have to turn our hearts to God..... and God will give us what is best for us based on how close our heart is aligned with him.

I don't worry about my place because I have faith and trust in Him.

However, the nihilistic among men will read your interpretation and rightfully take it to mean that because God will raise who He will raise up that there is no point in anything much less our mortal existence because pur place was decided and predestined before birth which also conveniently completely negates the premise of free will which is central to Christian theology.

There is so much that is wrong with what you posted I have to shake my head in amazement that you were able to do the mental gymnastics to create that ridiculous word salad and post it with a straight face.

Mostly Peaceful said:

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dermdoc said:

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And they will say they are the one true brand of Christianity and say we are all condemned.

Regular as I used to be.

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Woah. What calvinist says you are condemned?

The Bible teaches divine sovereignty and human responsibility. How those go together I have no idea. I also have no idea how God can be 3 and 1 at the same time. Or how Jesus is fully God and fully man. But the Bible teaches it, so I believe it. The many paradoxes in Scripture speaks to its divine nature in my opinion.

I also believe that my children were predestined before the foundation of the world. The sad reality is - many parents won't have 100% of their children saved. I pray that mine will know Jesus. I trust God's sovereign will in that He works all things for good to those who love Him. How that could mean my children won't receive God's grace, I have no idea. But I trust Him.

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I apologize for my comments and removed them from the thread.

We are all brothers in Christ with just some different views on theology.

And I agree with almost all of Calvinism.

But I do believe in free will for man to accept or reject God.

And also do not believe in double predestination.

Wonderful grace.

I appreciate the replies to my posts. I'm not able to keep up as I try to give thoughtful responses based on Scripture while doing life's daily tasks.

Election tends to trip people up, but its more because people get lost in understanding the divine mechanics as opposed to just doing what the Bible tells us to do. Mostly Peaceful summed it up well that the Bible is full of things that are hard to understand, but that doesn't make them untrue.

Someone asked about repentance and what hope is there for the lost with this kind of doctrine? Also, how can I have kids not knowing if they are part of the elect? This is silly because the Bible doesn't tell me to worry about election.

Walk through Matthew 3 and 4. John the Baptist is preaching a ministry of repentance and is baptizing by water.

Quote:

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Matt 3:6
6 and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

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And there it is. Confess, from the Greek, is admission, acknowledgement, or profession. This points us right back to what I keep trying to reiterate. It is the acknowledgement of our depravity. You don't have to know if you are elect to confess your sinful state. Repentance starts with confession.

In total contrast, and a point I've made several times now, the Pharisees and Sadducees walk up and John blasts them because he knows they are not repentant. They don't believe in their hearts they are sinful people and believe they can attain righteousness by works.
This the clear juxtaposition on the understanding of depravity and the sinful state of man. It's never changed since Genesis 3.

Jesus comes along, gets baptized by John and God proclaims from the heaven his authority and that he is "The Way".

Jesus begins his ministry also preaching repentance, but he is baptizing by Spirit and fire. Spirit referencing regeneration (John 3:3,5) and fire referencing the truth of the Gospel (Malachi 3).

What's the point of saying all this? John tells us later on in his epistle.

Quote:

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1 john 1

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

(and here is the key part)

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

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And there it is. It's as simple as that. I don't sit here and worry about whether my children are part of the elect or if I win the lottery. That's childish logic. I sit here and worry that my children understand mankind is fallen, we are sinful, and if we are good to confess us our sins and declare Jesus as Lord, (Romans 10:9), he will change our hearts (Ezek 36), grant us rebirth (John 3), and sanctify us (2 Cor 3:18).

The Gospels are a proclamation of truth and are constantly contrasting the humble vs the proud. The humble are the ones who understand Total Depravity and the proud are the ones who do not. Stop focusing on election and focus on understanding the true nature of sin and man's state. Paul calls it 'Slaves to Sin'. Do we have a real grasp of what that means? Until we do, we will never understand grace.

I am okay with that. Thanks.

But that quote from Calvin that God basically predestines people to hell is pretty un nerving.

This is about God's character.

dermdoc said:

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I am okay with that. Thanks.

But that quote from Calvin that God basically predestines people to hell is pretty in nerving.

This is about God's character.

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Thanks to you as well.

And the reformed will say you can not truly repent unless you were elected to do so. Your writing is accurate but you're ignoring the reformed theology position. And saying "don't worry about it". It's disingenuous.

The problem is people have removed all personal responsibility by saying one is totally depraved and therefor is unable to repent. Yet there is zero Scripture to support the idea total depravity excludes the ability to repent. It's completely made up theology that has become tradition of men. Just like the Pharisees held they were elite and used traditions of men to support their believes instead of the Word of God.

Yukon Cornelius said:

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And the reformed will say you can not truly repent unless you were elected to do so. Your writing is accurate but you're ignoring the reformed theology position. And saying "don't worry about it". It's disingenuous.

The problem is people have removed all personal responsibility by saying one is totally depraved and therefor is unable to repent. Yet there is zero Scripture to support the idea total depravity excludes the ability to repent. It's completely made up theology that has become tradition of men. Just like the Pharisees held they were elite and used traditions of men to support their believes instead of the Word of God.

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I agree. Free will is free will. Double predestination makes God into a monster. But Bob is a respectful poster.

And nobody is going to change their mind on this.

BTHO Ole Miss!

Yep. I lean towards some combination of the two. How it all works, I don't know. And I'm ok with not knowing. There's a fear of the unknown I think we collectively need to regret. We are not given a spirit of fear but of peace, love and a sound mind!

The opposite of double predestination is not free will though.

We can not have free will (towards salvation) and also nit support double predestination.

Original sin means we are dead in our sin and dead people don't have a choice right? We are brought back to life through the grace of God, not because of our choice by because of His.

AgLiving06 said:

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The opposite of double predestination is not free will though.

We can not have free will (towards salvation) and also nit support double predestination.

Original sin means we are dead in our sin and dead people don't have a choice right? We are brought back to life through the grace of God, not because of our choice by because of His.

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Sure. But it is available to everybody.

Read Calvin's quote. He believed God condemns people to hell. I do not. People choose.

Mostly Peaceful said:

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I'm a big proponent of theological discussion and debate, and I always appreciate your thoughts on this board.

I'm very new to theology/doctrine. My introduction to calvinism was through Charles Spurgeon and RC Sproul, although I didn't realize that for a good while. Formally, I began to learn more about calvinism through Millard Erickson's "Christian Theology" which is the textbook for some theology classes I've been taking. Outside of that, my knowledge of calvinism is very limited.

I mention that because I was initially very surprised at how calvinism was portrayed in this thread. Listening to Spurgeon and Sproul never made me envision a God who prevented people from receiving salvation or anything like that. It's certainly not the way it's described in my textbook. I say initially because I happened to get a book last week called Humble Calvinism, and decided last night was a good time to open it up. I think I have a better understanding of the negative reaction now.

Anyway, I'm about 3/4ths of the way through, and I highly recommend the book to calvinists and non-calvinists alike. It's an easy read, and that's coming from someone who never progressed past those Christopher Moore sports books. Bless you guys.

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Thanks and bless you also.

I love Spurgeon.

But if you are a Calvinist, at some time you have to agree with Calvin that God condemns some people to hell (posted above). Without them having a choice. People choose to go to hell. God does not send them there.

And that to me is not God's character as reflected in Christ.

The initial ideas of Calvinism or now called reformed theology is fundamentally a philosophy and not theology. It starts off well based on scripture. There are scriptures that which by themselves can lead one to rationally think God predestines those who are saved. It sounds nice.

However the problem arises when you take that line of thinking and extrapolate it to other areas. And when you compare it to the whole of scripture it doesn't stand up. So what happens is the reformed theologian will come up with philosophical arguments to deal with the contradictions in scripture.

So one problem is double predestination. Which if God is choosing who is getting saved and the saved has zero will in it He is then choosing who isn't saved. And thus condemning them. Which there isn't scriptural support for. So instead they came up with the PHILOSOPHICAL argument of Total Depravity. Which they will use scriptures to show the depravity of man but the philosophical argument is that Total depravity means it is impossible to repent unless the Holy spirit regenerates you into a new creation and you are saved and then can repent. Which again has zero scripture to support it.

There's a long list of problems. Some of them very serious. And some very anti-Christian. I have a high degree of confidence that the itchy ear doctrine spoken of by Peter is Calvinism. It should be rejected by believers. Instead it has been rebranded and becoming very popular again.

dermdoc said:

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Mostly Peaceful said:

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I'm a big proponent of theological discussion and debate, and I always appreciate your thoughts on this board.

I'm very new to theology/doctrine. My introduction to calvinism was through Charles Spurgeon and RC Sproul, although I didn't realize that for a good while. Formally, I began to learn more about calvinism through Millard Erickson's "Christian Theology" which is the textbook for some theology classes I've been taking. Outside of that, my knowledge of calvinism is very limited.

I mention that because I was initially very surprised at how calvinism was portrayed in this thread. Listening to Spurgeon and Sproul never made me envision a God who prevented people from receiving salvation or anything like that. It's certainly not the way it's described in my textbook. I say initially because I happened to get a book last week called Humble Calvinism, and decided last night was a good time to open it up. I think I have a better understanding of the negative reaction now.

Anyway, I'm about 3/4ths of the way through, and I highly recommend the book to calvinists and non-calvinists alike. It's an easy read, and that's coming from someone who never progressed past those Christopher Moore sports books. Bless you guys.

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Thanks and bless you also.

I love Spurgeon.

But if you are a Calvinist, at some time you have to agree with Calvin that God condemns some people to hell (posted above). Without them having a choice. People choose to go to hell. God does not send them there.

And that to me is not God's character as reflected in Christ.

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Sorry, I'm missing where the quote is. What was it?

To my knowledge, Calvin believed that everyone is predestined to either life (the elect) or death (the reprobate). God extends grace to the elect for reasons we can't possibly know, but not to the reprobate.

I can't imagine trying to work my way through Institutes, so I've leaned on journal articles to help me understand his views. Here's a quote:

"The question that troubled him was: How is it possible that when people hear the Gospel, one accepts it and the other rejects it? His answer was that some people simply reject the Word, while others, through the work of the Holy Spirit, embrace it. He concluded that some people are elected, while others are rejected... He referred to this as a 'dreadful decree,' but he was convinced that Paul teaches this in Romans 9:6-24."