Yukon Cornelius said:

---

I think the simple answer of all is all. No need to over complicate Gods word. (Not you but people who twist this into their own philosophical beliefs). So if it's all then why isn't everyone saved? Because rejection. Which I used to think not everyone rejected Jesus but as I've got older it's more clear. The unbelievers are rejecting Jesus. Unbelief is rejection. Rejecting not just Jesus but also the Father. So it can be true Jesus died for all but many rejected what He did for them. I see no issues with that logical reasoning. I'm sure there are those who will find one though, of which I'm interested in the counter argument.

---

Yes. I think that's right. God desires to save all, but will not force it. He calls on everyone, but many, unfortunately will reject that call and pursue other gods.

Bob_Ag said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

ok, my bad. I erroneously thought you were Calvinist and believed in total depravity. Carry on and don't mind me

---

Perhaps you can expand on this and why you think total depravity is incompatible with my response?

---

Sure. You said man can choose not to sin. Under the idea of Total Depravity, man can only sin. Man has no choice in the matter. Every time a man does a good thing, it is because God performs a literal miracle forcing man to do good. Man is 100% a being of horrific evil except in case of these specific miraculous interventions. This mindset is completely incongruous with both your post at the beginning of the thread and your responses to me

---

I don't think you understand the doctrine of Total Depravity nor Calvinism.

Man has choice. Man has a will. Reformed Theology is not the notion of divinely created robots.

My reply to you was very clear and quite congruous. You asked if man can choose not to sin and I said the more practical question is whether man will sin. Why is that the better question? Because man, in every decision he makes, bases it on some level of disposition, prejudice or bias.

So then what does God tell us in the Bible about man's default disposition?

Romans 3:10-12
""None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."

That's pretty explicit. In fact, Jesus himself calls man evil (Matt 7:11).

However, God provides a way for us to choose sin less through the process of regeneration and sanctification. In fact we are called a "new creation" which is what Jesus references to Nicodemus in John 3. Mans disposition begins to change and so do his choices. We are being transformed into the image of Christ (2 Cor 3:18).

I think you are confusing free will and autonomy. Man is not autonomous from God and never will be.

---

"Man has a choice"

How does that jive with total depravity, unconditional election, and irreversible grace?

How can you have a choice if you are totally depraved and not of the elect?

And did Calvin believe in free will?

For the record, I actually agree with what you posted.

But that is not classic Calvinism. Which is good in my opinion.

This is an example of reformed theology wordsmithing. Everything you said can be true. However you're not addressing the presupposed premise that being evil or totally depraved negates one's ability to repent. Which as far I know there is no scripture to support that belief. So yes we can agree man is evil. However I would like to see scripture supporting the premise that being evil prevents one from repenting. What I see in scripture is calls to repentance and people choosing to repent or not.

Look at Ninevah. The city repented and God relented.

dermdoc said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

ok, my bad. I erroneously thought you were Calvinist and believed in total depravity. Carry on and don't mind me

---

Perhaps you can expand on this and why you think total depravity is incompatible with my response?

---

Sure. You said man can choose not to sin. Under the idea of Total Depravity, man can only sin. Man has no choice in the matter. Every time a man does a good thing, it is because God performs a literal miracle forcing man to do good. Man is 100% a being of horrific evil except in case of these specific miraculous interventions. This mindset is completely incongruous with both your post at the beginning of the thread and your responses to me

---

I don't think you understand the doctrine of Total Depravity nor Calvinism.

Man has choice. Man has a will. Reformed Theology is not the notion of divinely created robots.

My reply to you was very clear and quite congruous. You asked if man can choose not to sin and I said the more practical question is whether man will sin. Why is that the better question? Because man, in every decision he makes, bases it on some level of disposition, prejudice or bias.

So then what does God tell us in the Bible about man's default disposition?

Romans 3:10-12
""None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."

That's pretty explicit. In fact, Jesus himself calls man evil (Matt 7:11).

However, God provides a way for us to choose sin less through the process of regeneration and sanctification. In fact we are called a "new creation" which is what Jesus references to Nicodemus in John 3. Mans disposition begins to change and so do his choices. We are being transformed into the image of Christ (2 Cor 3:18).

I think you are confusing free will and autonomy. Man is not autonomous from God and never will be.

---

"Man has a choice"

How does that jive with total depravity, unconditional election, and irreversible grace?

How can you have a choice if you are totally depraved and not of the elect?

And did Calvin believe in free will?

For the record, I actually agree with what you posted.

But that is not classic Calvinism. Which is good in my opinion.

---

I wouldn't include "total depravity" with the other 2 if I'm being honest.

Scripture is pretty clear that in our unregenerate state, we are "children of wrath" and "slaves to sin" and so on and so forth.

It's not wrong to point out that our sinful nature desires to resist God.

But the other two are much tougher to find any sort of scriptural support for.

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

ok, my bad. I erroneously thought you were Calvinist and believed in total depravity. Carry on and don't mind me

---

Perhaps you can expand on this and why you think total depravity is incompatible with my response?

---

Sure. You said man can choose not to sin. Under the idea of Total Depravity, man can only sin. Man has no choice in the matter. Every time a man does a good thing, it is because God performs a literal miracle forcing man to do good. Man is 100% a being of horrific evil except in case of these specific miraculous interventions. This mindset is completely incongruous with both your post at the beginning of the thread and your responses to me

---

I don't think you understand the doctrine of Total Depravity nor Calvinism.

Man has choice. Man has a will. Reformed Theology is not the notion of divinely created robots.

My reply to you was very clear and quite congruous. You asked if man can choose not to sin and I said the more practical question is whether man will sin. Why is that the better question? Because man, in every decision he makes, bases it on some level of disposition, prejudice or bias.

So then what does God tell us in the Bible about man's default disposition?

Romans 3:10-12
""None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."

That's pretty explicit. In fact, Jesus himself calls man evil (Matt 7:11).

However, God provides a way for us to choose sin less through the process of regeneration and sanctification. In fact we are called a "new creation" which is what Jesus references to Nicodemus in John 3. Mans disposition begins to change and so do his choices. We are being transformed into the image of Christ (2 Cor 3:18).

I think you are confusing free will and autonomy. Man is not autonomous from God and never will be.

---

"Man has a choice"

How does that jive with total depravity, unconditional election, and irreversible grace?

How can you have a choice if you are totally depraved and not of the elect?

And did Calvin believe in free will?

For the record, I actually agree with what you posted.

But that is not classic Calvinism. Which is good in my opinion.

---

I wouldn't include "total depravity" with the other 2 if I'm being honest.

Scripture is pretty clear that in our unregenerate state, we are "children of wrath" and "slaves to sin" and so on and so forth.

It's not wrong to point out that our sinful nature desires to resist God.

But the other two are much tougher to find any sort of scriptural support for.

---

The problem is that with total depravity by definition there is no choice.

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

ok, my bad. I erroneously thought you were Calvinist and believed in total depravity. Carry on and don't mind me

---

Perhaps you can expand on this and why you think total depravity is incompatible with my response?

---

Sure. You said man can choose not to sin. Under the idea of Total Depravity, man can only sin. Man has no choice in the matter. Every time a man does a good thing, it is because God performs a literal miracle forcing man to do good. Man is 100% a being of horrific evil except in case of these specific miraculous interventions. This mindset is completely incongruous with both your post at the beginning of the thread and your responses to me

---

I don't think you understand the doctrine of Total Depravity nor Calvinism.

Man has choice. Man has a will. Reformed Theology is not the notion of divinely created robots.

My reply to you was very clear and quite congruous. You asked if man can choose not to sin and I said the more practical question is whether man will sin. Why is that the better question? Because man, in every decision he makes, bases it on some level of disposition, prejudice or bias.

So then what does God tell us in the Bible about man's default disposition?

Romans 3:10-12
""None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."

That's pretty explicit. In fact, Jesus himself calls man evil (Matt 7:11).

However, God provides a way for us to choose sin less through the process of regeneration and sanctification. In fact we are called a "new creation" which is what Jesus references to Nicodemus in John 3. Mans disposition begins to change and so do his choices. We are being transformed into the image of Christ (2 Cor 3:18).

I think you are confusing free will and autonomy. Man is not autonomous from God and never will be.

---

"Man has a choice"

How does that jive with total depravity, unconditional election, and irreversible grace?

How can you have a choice if you are totally depraved and not of the elect?

And did Calvin believe in free will?

For the record, I actually agree with what you posted.

But that is not classic Calvinism. Which is good in my opinion.

---

I wouldn't include "total depravity" with the other 2 if I'm being honest.

Scripture is pretty clear that in our unregenerate state, we are "children of wrath" and "slaves to sin" and so on and so forth.

It's not wrong to point out that our sinful nature desires to resist God.

But the other two are much tougher to find any sort of scriptural support for.

---

The problem is that with total depravity by definition there is no choice.

---

it depends on what you mean by "no choice."

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

ok, my bad. I erroneously thought you were Calvinist and believed in total depravity. Carry on and don't mind me

---

Perhaps you can expand on this and why you think total depravity is incompatible with my response?

---

Sure. You said man can choose not to sin. Under the idea of Total Depravity, man can only sin. Man has no choice in the matter. Every time a man does a good thing, it is because God performs a literal miracle forcing man to do good. Man is 100% a being of horrific evil except in case of these specific miraculous interventions. This mindset is completely incongruous with both your post at the beginning of the thread and your responses to me

---

I don't think you understand the doctrine of Total Depravity nor Calvinism.

Man has choice. Man has a will. Reformed Theology is not the notion of divinely created robots.

My reply to you was very clear and quite congruous. You asked if man can choose not to sin and I said the more practical question is whether man will sin. Why is that the better question? Because man, in every decision he makes, bases it on some level of disposition, prejudice or bias.

So then what does God tell us in the Bible about man's default disposition?

Romans 3:10-12
""None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."

That's pretty explicit. In fact, Jesus himself calls man evil (Matt 7:11).

However, God provides a way for us to choose sin less through the process of regeneration and sanctification. In fact we are called a "new creation" which is what Jesus references to Nicodemus in John 3. Mans disposition begins to change and so do his choices. We are being transformed into the image of Christ (2 Cor 3:18).

I think you are confusing free will and autonomy. Man is not autonomous from God and never will be.

---

"Man has a choice"

How does that jive with total depravity, unconditional election, and irreversible grace?

How can you have a choice if you are totally depraved and not of the elect?

And did Calvin believe in free will?

For the record, I actually agree with what you posted.

But that is not classic Calvinism. Which is good in my opinion.

---

I wouldn't include "total depravity" with the other 2 if I'm being honest.

Scripture is pretty clear that in our unregenerate state, we are "children of wrath" and "slaves to sin" and so on and so forth.

It's not wrong to point out that our sinful nature desires to resist God.

But the other two are much tougher to find any sort of scriptural support for.

---

The problem is that with total depravity by definition there is no choice.

---

it depends on what you mean by "no choice."

---

Well if you believe in total depravity then Calvinism has to be your belief system.

That means the only way anyone can know the Lord is if God regenerates you without your choice as you are totally depraved.

If you are totally depraved how can you have free will to decide to accept Christ?

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

ok, my bad. I erroneously thought you were Calvinist and believed in total depravity. Carry on and don't mind me

---

Perhaps you can expand on this and why you think total depravity is incompatible with my response?

---

Sure. You said man can choose not to sin. Under the idea of Total Depravity, man can only sin. Man has no choice in the matter. Every time a man does a good thing, it is because God performs a literal miracle forcing man to do good. Man is 100% a being of horrific evil except in case of these specific miraculous interventions. This mindset is completely incongruous with both your post at the beginning of the thread and your responses to me

---

I don't think you understand the doctrine of Total Depravity nor Calvinism.

Man has choice. Man has a will. Reformed Theology is not the notion of divinely created robots.

My reply to you was very clear and quite congruous. You asked if man can choose not to sin and I said the more practical question is whether man will sin. Why is that the better question? Because man, in every decision he makes, bases it on some level of disposition, prejudice or bias.

So then what does God tell us in the Bible about man's default disposition?

Romans 3:10-12
""None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."

That's pretty explicit. In fact, Jesus himself calls man evil (Matt 7:11).

However, God provides a way for us to choose sin less through the process of regeneration and sanctification. In fact we are called a "new creation" which is what Jesus references to Nicodemus in John 3. Mans disposition begins to change and so do his choices. We are being transformed into the image of Christ (2 Cor 3:18).

I think you are confusing free will and autonomy. Man is not autonomous from God and never will be.

---

"Man has a choice"

How does that jive with total depravity, unconditional election, and irreversible grace?

How can you have a choice if you are totally depraved and not of the elect?

And did Calvin believe in free will?

For the record, I actually agree with what you posted.

But that is not classic Calvinism. Which is good in my opinion.

---

I wouldn't include "total depravity" with the other 2 if I'm being honest.

Scripture is pretty clear that in our unregenerate state, we are "children of wrath" and "slaves to sin" and so on and so forth.

It's not wrong to point out that our sinful nature desires to resist God.

But the other two are much tougher to find any sort of scriptural support for.

---

The problem is that with total depravity by definition there is no choice.

---

it depends on what you mean by "no choice."

---

Well if you believe in total depravity then Calvinism has to be your belief system.

That means the only way anyone can know the Lord is if Fod regenerates you without your choice as you are totally depraved.

---

But that's my point. The concept of Total Depravity isn't particularly specific to Calvin. Essentially every church in the west has a concept of Original Sin that essentially aligns with total depravity.

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

ok, my bad. I erroneously thought you were Calvinist and believed in total depravity. Carry on and don't mind me

---

Perhaps you can expand on this and why you think total depravity is incompatible with my response?

---

Sure. You said man can choose not to sin. Under the idea of Total Depravity, man can only sin. Man has no choice in the matter. Every time a man does a good thing, it is because God performs a literal miracle forcing man to do good. Man is 100% a being of horrific evil except in case of these specific miraculous interventions. This mindset is completely incongruous with both your post at the beginning of the thread and your responses to me

---

I don't think you understand the doctrine of Total Depravity nor Calvinism.

Man has choice. Man has a will. Reformed Theology is not the notion of divinely created robots.

My reply to you was very clear and quite congruous. You asked if man can choose not to sin and I said the more practical question is whether man will sin. Why is that the better question? Because man, in every decision he makes, bases it on some level of disposition, prejudice or bias.

So then what does God tell us in the Bible about man's default disposition?

Romans 3:10-12
""None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."

That's pretty explicit. In fact, Jesus himself calls man evil (Matt 7:11).

However, God provides a way for us to choose sin less through the process of regeneration and sanctification. In fact we are called a "new creation" which is what Jesus references to Nicodemus in John 3. Mans disposition begins to change and so do his choices. We are being transformed into the image of Christ (2 Cor 3:18).

I think you are confusing free will and autonomy. Man is not autonomous from God and never will be.

---

"Man has a choice"

How does that jive with total depravity, unconditional election, and irreversible grace?

How can you have a choice if you are totally depraved and not of the elect?

And did Calvin believe in free will?

For the record, I actually agree with what you posted.

But that is not classic Calvinism. Which is good in my opinion.

---

I wouldn't include "total depravity" with the other 2 if I'm being honest.

Scripture is pretty clear that in our unregenerate state, we are "children of wrath" and "slaves to sin" and so on and so forth.

It's not wrong to point out that our sinful nature desires to resist God.

But the other two are much tougher to find any sort of scriptural support for.

---

The problem is that with total depravity by definition there is no choice.

---

it depends on what you mean by "no choice."

---

Well if you believe in total depravity then Calvinism has to be your belief system.

That means the only way anyone can know the Lord is if Fod regenerates you without your choice as you are totally depraved.

---

But that's my point. The concept of Total Depravity isn't particularly specific to Calvin. Essentially every church in the west has a concept of Original Sin that essentially aligns with total depravity.

---

Huge difference between original sin and total depravity.

Man has always had a choice. That is what happened in the Garden of Eden. And God lets us decide who and what we want to worship and follow.

If you are totally depraved you do not have that choice.

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

ok, my bad. I erroneously thought you were Calvinist and believed in total depravity. Carry on and don't mind me

---

Perhaps you can expand on this and why you think total depravity is incompatible with my response?

---

Sure. You said man can choose not to sin. Under the idea of Total Depravity, man can only sin. Man has no choice in the matter. Every time a man does a good thing, it is because God performs a literal miracle forcing man to do good. Man is 100% a being of horrific evil except in case of these specific miraculous interventions. This mindset is completely incongruous with both your post at the beginning of the thread and your responses to me

---

I don't think you understand the doctrine of Total Depravity nor Calvinism.

Man has choice. Man has a will. Reformed Theology is not the notion of divinely created robots.

My reply to you was very clear and quite congruous. You asked if man can choose not to sin and I said the more practical question is whether man will sin. Why is that the better question? Because man, in every decision he makes, bases it on some level of disposition, prejudice or bias.

So then what does God tell us in the Bible about man's default disposition?

Romans 3:10-12
""None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."

That's pretty explicit. In fact, Jesus himself calls man evil (Matt 7:11).

However, God provides a way for us to choose sin less through the process of regeneration and sanctification. In fact we are called a "new creation" which is what Jesus references to Nicodemus in John 3. Mans disposition begins to change and so do his choices. We are being transformed into the image of Christ (2 Cor 3:18).

I think you are confusing free will and autonomy. Man is not autonomous from God and never will be.

---

"Man has a choice"

How does that jive with total depravity, unconditional election, and irreversible grace?

How can you have a choice if you are totally depraved and not of the elect?

And did Calvin believe in free will?

For the record, I actually agree with what you posted.

But that is not classic Calvinism. Which is good in my opinion.

---

I wouldn't include "total depravity" with the other 2 if I'm being honest.

Scripture is pretty clear that in our unregenerate state, we are "children of wrath" and "slaves to sin" and so on and so forth.

It's not wrong to point out that our sinful nature desires to resist God.

But the other two are much tougher to find any sort of scriptural support for.

---

The problem is that with total depravity by definition there is no choice.

---

it depends on what you mean by "no choice."

---

Well if you believe in total depravity then Calvinism has to be your belief system.

That means the only way anyone can know the Lord is if Fod regenerates you without your choice as you are totally depraved.

---

But that's my point. The concept of Total Depravity isn't particularly specific to Calvin. Essentially every church in the west has a concept of Original Sin that essentially aligns with total depravity.

---

Huge difference between original sin and total depravity.

Man has always had a choice. That is what happened in the Garden of Eden. And God lets us decide who and what we want to worship and follow.

If you are totally depraved you do not have that choice.

---

Do you think we have the exact same freedom of choice that Adam and Eve had in the Garden?

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

ok, my bad. I erroneously thought you were Calvinist and believed in total depravity. Carry on and don't mind me

---

Perhaps you can expand on this and why you think total depravity is incompatible with my response?

---

Sure. You said man can choose not to sin. Under the idea of Total Depravity, man can only sin. Man has no choice in the matter. Every time a man does a good thing, it is because God performs a literal miracle forcing man to do good. Man is 100% a being of horrific evil except in case of these specific miraculous interventions. This mindset is completely incongruous with both your post at the beginning of the thread and your responses to me

---

I don't think you understand the doctrine of Total Depravity nor Calvinism.

Man has choice. Man has a will. Reformed Theology is not the notion of divinely created robots.

My reply to you was very clear and quite congruous. You asked if man can choose not to sin and I said the more practical question is whether man will sin. Why is that the better question? Because man, in every decision he makes, bases it on some level of disposition, prejudice or bias.

So then what does God tell us in the Bible about man's default disposition?

Romans 3:10-12
""None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."

That's pretty explicit. In fact, Jesus himself calls man evil (Matt 7:11).

However, God provides a way for us to choose sin less through the process of regeneration and sanctification. In fact we are called a "new creation" which is what Jesus references to Nicodemus in John 3. Mans disposition begins to change and so do his choices. We are being transformed into the image of Christ (2 Cor 3:18).

I think you are confusing free will and autonomy. Man is not autonomous from God and never will be.

---

"Man has a choice"

How does that jive with total depravity, unconditional election, and irreversible grace?

How can you have a choice if you are totally depraved and not of the elect?

And did Calvin believe in free will?

For the record, I actually agree with what you posted.

But that is not classic Calvinism. Which is good in my opinion.

---

I wouldn't include "total depravity" with the other 2 if I'm being honest.

Scripture is pretty clear that in our unregenerate state, we are "children of wrath" and "slaves to sin" and so on and so forth.

It's not wrong to point out that our sinful nature desires to resist God.

But the other two are much tougher to find any sort of scriptural support for.

---

The problem is that with total depravity by definition there is no choice.

---

it depends on what you mean by "no choice."

---

Well if you believe in total depravity then Calvinism has to be your belief system.

That means the only way anyone can know the Lord is if Fod regenerates you without your choice as you are totally depraved.

---

But that's my point. The concept of Total Depravity isn't particularly specific to Calvin. Essentially every church in the west has a concept of Original Sin that essentially aligns with total depravity.

---

Huge difference between original sin and total depravity.

Man has always had a choice. That is what happened in the Garden of Eden. And God lets us decide who and what we want to worship and follow.

If you are totally depraved you do not have that choice.

---

Do you think we have the exact same freedom of choice that Adam and Eve had in the Garden?

---

Yes.

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

ok, my bad. I erroneously thought you were Calvinist and believed in total depravity. Carry on and don't mind me

---

Perhaps you can expand on this and why you think total depravity is incompatible with my response?

---

Sure. You said man can choose not to sin. Under the idea of Total Depravity, man can only sin. Man has no choice in the matter. Every time a man does a good thing, it is because God performs a literal miracle forcing man to do good. Man is 100% a being of horrific evil except in case of these specific miraculous interventions. This mindset is completely incongruous with both your post at the beginning of the thread and your responses to me

---

I don't think you understand the doctrine of Total Depravity nor Calvinism.

Man has choice. Man has a will. Reformed Theology is not the notion of divinely created robots.

My reply to you was very clear and quite congruous. You asked if man can choose not to sin and I said the more practical question is whether man will sin. Why is that the better question? Because man, in every decision he makes, bases it on some level of disposition, prejudice or bias.

So then what does God tell us in the Bible about man's default disposition?

Romans 3:10-12
""None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."

That's pretty explicit. In fact, Jesus himself calls man evil (Matt 7:11).

However, God provides a way for us to choose sin less through the process of regeneration and sanctification. In fact we are called a "new creation" which is what Jesus references to Nicodemus in John 3. Mans disposition begins to change and so do his choices. We are being transformed into the image of Christ (2 Cor 3:18).

I think you are confusing free will and autonomy. Man is not autonomous from God and never will be.

---

"Man has a choice"

How does that jive with total depravity, unconditional election, and irreversible grace?

How can you have a choice if you are totally depraved and not of the elect?

And did Calvin believe in free will?

For the record, I actually agree with what you posted.

But that is not classic Calvinism. Which is good in my opinion.

---

I wouldn't include "total depravity" with the other 2 if I'm being honest.

Scripture is pretty clear that in our unregenerate state, we are "children of wrath" and "slaves to sin" and so on and so forth.

It's not wrong to point out that our sinful nature desires to resist God.

But the other two are much tougher to find any sort of scriptural support for.

---

The problem is that with total depravity by definition there is no choice.

---

it depends on what you mean by "no choice."

---

Well if you believe in total depravity then Calvinism has to be your belief system.

That means the only way anyone can know the Lord is if Fod regenerates you without your choice as you are totally depraved.

---

But that's my point. The concept of Total Depravity isn't particularly specific to Calvin. Essentially every church in the west has a concept of Original Sin that essentially aligns with total depravity.

---

Huge difference between original sin and total depravity.

Man has always had a choice. That is what happened in the Garden of Eden. And God lets us decide who and what we want to worship and follow.

If you are totally depraved you do not have that choice.

---

Do you think we have the exact same freedom of choice that Adam and Eve had in the Garden?

---

Yes.

---

So Adam and Eve had original sin when God created them?

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

ok, my bad. I erroneously thought you were Calvinist and believed in total depravity. Carry on and don't mind me

---

Perhaps you can expand on this and why you think total depravity is incompatible with my response?

---

Sure. You said man can choose not to sin. Under the idea of Total Depravity, man can only sin. Man has no choice in the matter. Every time a man does a good thing, it is because God performs a literal miracle forcing man to do good. Man is 100% a being of horrific evil except in case of these specific miraculous interventions. This mindset is completely incongruous with both your post at the beginning of the thread and your responses to me

---

I don't think you understand the doctrine of Total Depravity nor Calvinism.

Man has choice. Man has a will. Reformed Theology is not the notion of divinely created robots.

My reply to you was very clear and quite congruous. You asked if man can choose not to sin and I said the more practical question is whether man will sin. Why is that the better question? Because man, in every decision he makes, bases it on some level of disposition, prejudice or bias.

So then what does God tell us in the Bible about man's default disposition?

Romans 3:10-12
""None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."

That's pretty explicit. In fact, Jesus himself calls man evil (Matt 7:11).

However, God provides a way for us to choose sin less through the process of regeneration and sanctification. In fact we are called a "new creation" which is what Jesus references to Nicodemus in John 3. Mans disposition begins to change and so do his choices. We are being transformed into the image of Christ (2 Cor 3:18).

I think you are confusing free will and autonomy. Man is not autonomous from God and never will be.

---

"Man has a choice"

How does that jive with total depravity, unconditional election, and irreversible grace?

How can you have a choice if you are totally depraved and not of the elect?

And did Calvin believe in free will?

For the record, I actually agree with what you posted.

But that is not classic Calvinism. Which is good in my opinion.

---

I wouldn't include "total depravity" with the other 2 if I'm being honest.

Scripture is pretty clear that in our unregenerate state, we are "children of wrath" and "slaves to sin" and so on and so forth.

It's not wrong to point out that our sinful nature desires to resist God.

But the other two are much tougher to find any sort of scriptural support for.

---

The problem is that with total depravity by definition there is no choice.

---

it depends on what you mean by "no choice."

---

Well if you believe in total depravity then Calvinism has to be your belief system.

That means the only way anyone can know the Lord is if Fod regenerates you without your choice as you are totally depraved.

---

But that's my point. The concept of Total Depravity isn't particularly specific to Calvin. Essentially every church in the west has a concept of Original Sin that essentially aligns with total depravity.

---

Huge difference between original sin and total depravity.

Man has always had a choice. That is what happened in the Garden of Eden. And God lets us decide who and what we want to worship and follow.

If you are totally depraved you do not have that choice.

---

Do you think we have the exact same freedom of choice that Adam and Eve had in the Garden?

---

Yes.

---

So Adam and Eve had original sin when God created them?

---

No. They used their free will to rebel against God.

How can you be totally depraved if you have a choice?

If you believe in total depravity, logically you can not believe in free will.

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

ok, my bad. I erroneously thought you were Calvinist and believed in total depravity. Carry on and don't mind me

---

Perhaps you can expand on this and why you think total depravity is incompatible with my response?

---

Sure. You said man can choose not to sin. Under the idea of Total Depravity, man can only sin. Man has no choice in the matter. Every time a man does a good thing, it is because God performs a literal miracle forcing man to do good. Man is 100% a being of horrific evil except in case of these specific miraculous interventions. This mindset is completely incongruous with both your post at the beginning of the thread and your responses to me

---

I don't think you understand the doctrine of Total Depravity nor Calvinism.

Man has choice. Man has a will. Reformed Theology is not the notion of divinely created robots.

My reply to you was very clear and quite congruous. You asked if man can choose not to sin and I said the more practical question is whether man will sin. Why is that the better question? Because man, in every decision he makes, bases it on some level of disposition, prejudice or bias.

So then what does God tell us in the Bible about man's default disposition?

Romans 3:10-12
""None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."

That's pretty explicit. In fact, Jesus himself calls man evil (Matt 7:11).

However, God provides a way for us to choose sin less through the process of regeneration and sanctification. In fact we are called a "new creation" which is what Jesus references to Nicodemus in John 3. Mans disposition begins to change and so do his choices. We are being transformed into the image of Christ (2 Cor 3:18).

I think you are confusing free will and autonomy. Man is not autonomous from God and never will be.

---

"Man has a choice"

How does that jive with total depravity, unconditional election, and irreversible grace?

How can you have a choice if you are totally depraved and not of the elect?

And did Calvin believe in free will?

For the record, I actually agree with what you posted.

But that is not classic Calvinism. Which is good in my opinion.

---

I wouldn't include "total depravity" with the other 2 if I'm being honest.

Scripture is pretty clear that in our unregenerate state, we are "children of wrath" and "slaves to sin" and so on and so forth.

It's not wrong to point out that our sinful nature desires to resist God.

But the other two are much tougher to find any sort of scriptural support for.

---

The problem is that with total depravity by definition there is no choice.

---

it depends on what you mean by "no choice."

---

Well if you believe in total depravity then Calvinism has to be your belief system.

That means the only way anyone can know the Lord is if Fod regenerates you without your choice as you are totally depraved.

---

But that's my point. The concept of Total Depravity isn't particularly specific to Calvin. Essentially every church in the west has a concept of Original Sin that essentially aligns with total depravity.

---

Huge difference between original sin and total depravity.

Man has always had a choice. That is what happened in the Garden of Eden. And God lets us decide who and what we want to worship and follow.

If you are totally depraved you do not have that choice.

---

Do you think we have the exact same freedom of choice that Adam and Eve had in the Garden?

---

Yes.

---

So Adam and Eve had original sin when God created them?

---

No. They used their free will to rebel against God.

How can you be totally depraved if you have a choice?

If you believe in total depravity, logically you can not believe in free will.

---

So would this be a fair definition of your position?

Man is born in a similar state as Adam and Eve and can of their own choice sin or not sin? And that if we choose to not sin, we could get to heaven by not sinning?

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

ok, my bad. I erroneously thought you were Calvinist and believed in total depravity. Carry on and don't mind me

---

Perhaps you can expand on this and why you think total depravity is incompatible with my response?

---

Sure. You said man can choose not to sin. Under the idea of Total Depravity, man can only sin. Man has no choice in the matter. Every time a man does a good thing, it is because God performs a literal miracle forcing man to do good. Man is 100% a being of horrific evil except in case of these specific miraculous interventions. This mindset is completely incongruous with both your post at the beginning of the thread and your responses to me

---

I don't think you understand the doctrine of Total Depravity nor Calvinism.

Man has choice. Man has a will. Reformed Theology is not the notion of divinely created robots.

My reply to you was very clear and quite congruous. You asked if man can choose not to sin and I said the more practical question is whether man will sin. Why is that the better question? Because man, in every decision he makes, bases it on some level of disposition, prejudice or bias.

So then what does God tell us in the Bible about man's default disposition?

Romans 3:10-12
""None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."

That's pretty explicit. In fact, Jesus himself calls man evil (Matt 7:11).

However, God provides a way for us to choose sin less through the process of regeneration and sanctification. In fact we are called a "new creation" which is what Jesus references to Nicodemus in John 3. Mans disposition begins to change and so do his choices. We are being transformed into the image of Christ (2 Cor 3:18).

I think you are confusing free will and autonomy. Man is not autonomous from God and never will be.

---

"Man has a choice"

How does that jive with total depravity, unconditional election, and irreversible grace?

How can you have a choice if you are totally depraved and not of the elect?

And did Calvin believe in free will?

For the record, I actually agree with what you posted.

But that is not classic Calvinism. Which is good in my opinion.

---

I wouldn't include "total depravity" with the other 2 if I'm being honest.

Scripture is pretty clear that in our unregenerate state, we are "children of wrath" and "slaves to sin" and so on and so forth.

It's not wrong to point out that our sinful nature desires to resist God.

But the other two are much tougher to find any sort of scriptural support for.

---

The problem is that with total depravity by definition there is no choice.

---

it depends on what you mean by "no choice."

---

Well if you believe in total depravity then Calvinism has to be your belief system.

That means the only way anyone can know the Lord is if Fod regenerates you without your choice as you are totally depraved.

---

But that's my point. The concept of Total Depravity isn't particularly specific to Calvin. Essentially every church in the west has a concept of Original Sin that essentially aligns with total depravity.

---

Huge difference between original sin and total depravity.

Man has always had a choice. That is what happened in the Garden of Eden. And God lets us decide who and what we want to worship and follow.

If you are totally depraved you do not have that choice.

---

Do you think we have the exact same freedom of choice that Adam and Eve had in the Garden?

---

Yes.

---

So Adam and Eve had original sin when God created them?

---

No. They used their free will to rebel against God.

How can you be totally depraved if you have a choice?

If you believe in total depravity, logically you can not believe in free will.

---

So would this be a fair definition of your position?

Man is born in a similar state as Adam and Eve and can of their own choice sin or not sin? And that if we choose to not sin, we could get to heaven by not sinning?

---

No. We are born with a sin nature.

God's grace for salvation through the cross is offered to everybody.

Everybody has a choice to choose through faith to choose to accept God's grace. Or reject it.

And we do not "go to heaven".

Scripture is pretty clear we sleep either in paradise or hades and then are resurrected with new bodies to reign in the New Jerusalem and new creation when Jesus returns.

God comes down to the earth. Not the other way around.

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

ok, my bad. I erroneously thought you were Calvinist and believed in total depravity. Carry on and don't mind me

---

Perhaps you can expand on this and why you think total depravity is incompatible with my response?

---

Sure. You said man can choose not to sin. Under the idea of Total Depravity, man can only sin. Man has no choice in the matter. Every time a man does a good thing, it is because God performs a literal miracle forcing man to do good. Man is 100% a being of horrific evil except in case of these specific miraculous interventions. This mindset is completely incongruous with both your post at the beginning of the thread and your responses to me

---

I don't think you understand the doctrine of Total Depravity nor Calvinism.

Man has choice. Man has a will. Reformed Theology is not the notion of divinely created robots.

My reply to you was very clear and quite congruous. You asked if man can choose not to sin and I said the more practical question is whether man will sin. Why is that the better question? Because man, in every decision he makes, bases it on some level of disposition, prejudice or bias.

So then what does God tell us in the Bible about man's default disposition?

Romans 3:10-12
""None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."

That's pretty explicit. In fact, Jesus himself calls man evil (Matt 7:11).

However, God provides a way for us to choose sin less through the process of regeneration and sanctification. In fact we are called a "new creation" which is what Jesus references to Nicodemus in John 3. Mans disposition begins to change and so do his choices. We are being transformed into the image of Christ (2 Cor 3:18).

I think you are confusing free will and autonomy. Man is not autonomous from God and never will be.

---

"Man has a choice"

How does that jive with total depravity, unconditional election, and irreversible grace?

How can you have a choice if you are totally depraved and not of the elect?

And did Calvin believe in free will?

For the record, I actually agree with what you posted.

But that is not classic Calvinism. Which is good in my opinion.

---

I wouldn't include "total depravity" with the other 2 if I'm being honest.

Scripture is pretty clear that in our unregenerate state, we are "children of wrath" and "slaves to sin" and so on and so forth.

It's not wrong to point out that our sinful nature desires to resist God.

But the other two are much tougher to find any sort of scriptural support for.

---

The problem is that with total depravity by definition there is no choice.

---

it depends on what you mean by "no choice."

---

Well if you believe in total depravity then Calvinism has to be your belief system.

That means the only way anyone can know the Lord is if Fod regenerates you without your choice as you are totally depraved.

---

But that's my point. The concept of Total Depravity isn't particularly specific to Calvin. Essentially every church in the west has a concept of Original Sin that essentially aligns with total depravity.

---

Huge difference between original sin and total depravity.

Man has always had a choice. That is what happened in the Garden of Eden. And God lets us decide who and what we want to worship and follow.

If you are totally depraved you do not have that choice.

---

Do you think we have the exact same freedom of choice that Adam and Eve had in the Garden?

---

Yes.

---

So Adam and Eve had original sin when God created them?

---

No. They used their free will to rebel against God.

How can you be totally depraved if you have a choice?

If you believe in total depravity, logically you can not believe in free will.

---

So would this be a fair definition of your position?

Man is born in a similar state as Adam and Eve and can of their own choice sin or not sin? And that if we choose to not sin, we could get to heaven by not sinning?

---

No. We are born with a sin nature.

God's grace for salvation through the cross is offered to everybody.

Everybody has a choice to choose through faith to choose to accept God's grace.

---

Ok, so you've just described a difference. We are born with a sinful nature that Adam and Eve did not have.

You've just described the basics of total depravity. All parts of the body are affected by sin. No part is left free from it

Next you said we choose to accept God? How? Do we wake up one day, with out ever having heard about Jesus and say, "I've decided I want to believe in Jesus?" Completely on our own without ever having heard of Him or what He did for us?

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

ok, my bad. I erroneously thought you were Calvinist and believed in total depravity. Carry on and don't mind me

---

Perhaps you can expand on this and why you think total depravity is incompatible with my response?

---

Sure. You said man can choose not to sin. Under the idea of Total Depravity, man can only sin. Man has no choice in the matter. Every time a man does a good thing, it is because God performs a literal miracle forcing man to do good. Man is 100% a being of horrific evil except in case of these specific miraculous interventions. This mindset is completely incongruous with both your post at the beginning of the thread and your responses to me

---

I don't think you understand the doctrine of Total Depravity nor Calvinism.

Man has choice. Man has a will. Reformed Theology is not the notion of divinely created robots.

My reply to you was very clear and quite congruous. You asked if man can choose not to sin and I said the more practical question is whether man will sin. Why is that the better question? Because man, in every decision he makes, bases it on some level of disposition, prejudice or bias.

So then what does God tell us in the Bible about man's default disposition?

Romans 3:10-12
""None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."

That's pretty explicit. In fact, Jesus himself calls man evil (Matt 7:11).

However, God provides a way for us to choose sin less through the process of regeneration and sanctification. In fact we are called a "new creation" which is what Jesus references to Nicodemus in John 3. Mans disposition begins to change and so do his choices. We are being transformed into the image of Christ (2 Cor 3:18).

I think you are confusing free will and autonomy. Man is not autonomous from God and never will be.

---

"Man has a choice"

How does that jive with total depravity, unconditional election, and irreversible grace?

How can you have a choice if you are totally depraved and not of the elect?

And did Calvin believe in free will?

For the record, I actually agree with what you posted.

But that is not classic Calvinism. Which is good in my opinion.

---

I wouldn't include "total depravity" with the other 2 if I'm being honest.

Scripture is pretty clear that in our unregenerate state, we are "children of wrath" and "slaves to sin" and so on and so forth.

It's not wrong to point out that our sinful nature desires to resist God.

But the other two are much tougher to find any sort of scriptural support for.

---

The problem is that with total depravity by definition there is no choice.

---

it depends on what you mean by "no choice."

---

Well if you believe in total depravity then Calvinism has to be your belief system.

That means the only way anyone can know the Lord is if Fod regenerates you without your choice as you are totally depraved.

---

But that's my point. The concept of Total Depravity isn't particularly specific to Calvin. Essentially every church in the west has a concept of Original Sin that essentially aligns with total depravity.

---

Huge difference between original sin and total depravity.

Man has always had a choice. That is what happened in the Garden of Eden. And God lets us decide who and what we want to worship and follow.

If you are totally depraved you do not have that choice.

---

Do you think we have the exact same freedom of choice that Adam and Eve had in the Garden?

---

Yes.

---

So Adam and Eve had original sin when God created them?

---

No. They used their free will to rebel against God.

How can you be totally depraved if you have a choice?

If you believe in total depravity, logically you can not believe in free will.

---

So would this be a fair definition of your position?

Man is born in a similar state as Adam and Eve and can of their own choice sin or not sin? And that if we choose to not sin, we could get to heaven by not sinning?

---

No. We are born with a sin nature.

God's grace for salvation through the cross is offered to everybody.

Everybody has a choice to choose through faith to choose to accept God's grace.

---

Ok, so you've just described a difference. We are born with a sinful nature that Adam and Eve did not have.

You've just described the basics of total depravity. All parts of the body are affected by sin. No part is left free from it

Next you said we choose to accept God? How? Do we wake up one day, with out ever having heard about Jesus and say, "I've decided I want to believe in Jesus?" Completely on our own without ever having heard of Him or what He did for us?

---

Of course not. We need the grace of God. But I believe that is offered to everybody and we have a choice to accept or reject,

I feel like Genesis 3 is pretty explicit about original sin. Women have painful and dangerous childbirth, men toil all their days, and then everyone dies. Nothing noted about men being fundamentally evil from that point onward who can't make any good choices or actions. The text of the Torah directly contradicts that. God literally says that being good (following His Torah) is not too difficult in Deut 30. That whole sequence makes no sense in a total depravity viewpoint

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

ok, my bad. I erroneously thought you were Calvinist and believed in total depravity. Carry on and don't mind me

---

Perhaps you can expand on this and why you think total depravity is incompatible with my response?

---

Sure. You said man can choose not to sin. Under the idea of Total Depravity, man can only sin. Man has no choice in the matter. Every time a man does a good thing, it is because God performs a literal miracle forcing man to do good. Man is 100% a being of horrific evil except in case of these specific miraculous interventions. This mindset is completely incongruous with both your post at the beginning of the thread and your responses to me

---

I don't think you understand the doctrine of Total Depravity nor Calvinism.

Man has choice. Man has a will. Reformed Theology is not the notion of divinely created robots.

My reply to you was very clear and quite congruous. You asked if man can choose not to sin and I said the more practical question is whether man will sin. Why is that the better question? Because man, in every decision he makes, bases it on some level of disposition, prejudice or bias.

So then what does God tell us in the Bible about man's default disposition?

Romans 3:10-12
""None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."

That's pretty explicit. In fact, Jesus himself calls man evil (Matt 7:11).

However, God provides a way for us to choose sin less through the process of regeneration and sanctification. In fact we are called a "new creation" which is what Jesus references to Nicodemus in John 3. Mans disposition begins to change and so do his choices. We are being transformed into the image of Christ (2 Cor 3:18).

I think you are confusing free will and autonomy. Man is not autonomous from God and never will be.

---

"Man has a choice"

How does that jive with total depravity, unconditional election, and irreversible grace?

How can you have a choice if you are totally depraved and not of the elect?

And did Calvin believe in free will?

For the record, I actually agree with what you posted.

But that is not classic Calvinism. Which is good in my opinion.

---

I wouldn't include "total depravity" with the other 2 if I'm being honest.

Scripture is pretty clear that in our unregenerate state, we are "children of wrath" and "slaves to sin" and so on and so forth.

It's not wrong to point out that our sinful nature desires to resist God.

But the other two are much tougher to find any sort of scriptural support for.

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The problem is that with total depravity by definition there is no choice.

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it depends on what you mean by "no choice."

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Well if you believe in total depravity then Calvinism has to be your belief system.

That means the only way anyone can know the Lord is if Fod regenerates you without your choice as you are totally depraved.

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But that's my point. The concept of Total Depravity isn't particularly specific to Calvin. Essentially every church in the west has a concept of Original Sin that essentially aligns with total depravity.

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Huge difference between original sin and total depravity.

Man has always had a choice. That is what happened in the Garden of Eden. And God lets us decide who and what we want to worship and follow.

If you are totally depraved you do not have that choice.

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Do you think we have the exact same freedom of choice that Adam and Eve had in the Garden?

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Yes.

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So Adam and Eve had original sin when God created them?

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No. They used their free will to rebel against God.

How can you be totally depraved if you have a choice?

If you believe in total depravity, logically you can not believe in free will.

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So would this be a fair definition of your position?

Man is born in a similar state as Adam and Eve and can of their own choice sin or not sin? And that if we choose to not sin, we could get to heaven by not sinning?

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No. We are born with a sin nature.

God's grace for salvation through the cross is offered to everybody.

Everybody has a choice to choose through faith to choose to accept God's grace.

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Ok, so you've just described a difference. We are born with a sinful nature that Adam and Eve did not have.

You've just described the basics of total depravity. All parts of the body are affected by sin. No part is left free from it

Next you said we choose to accept God? How? Do we wake up one day, with out ever having heard about Jesus and say, "I've decided I want to believe in Jesus?" Completely on our own without ever having heard of Him or what He did for us?

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Of course not. We need the grace of God. But I believe that is offered to everybody and we have a choice to accept or reject,

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Ok...Now lets think about your birthday.

When you have a party and a friend of yours gives you a gift...Do you say you chose that gift? Or would you say, you can receive that gift or you can reject it?

AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Bob_Ag said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Bob_Ag said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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ok, my bad. I erroneously thought you were Calvinist and believed in total depravity. Carry on and don't mind me

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Perhaps you can expand on this and why you think total depravity is incompatible with my response?

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Sure. You said man can choose not to sin. Under the idea of Total Depravity, man can only sin. Man has no choice in the matter. Every time a man does a good thing, it is because God performs a literal miracle forcing man to do good. Man is 100% a being of horrific evil except in case of these specific miraculous interventions. This mindset is completely incongruous with both your post at the beginning of the thread and your responses to me

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I don't think you understand the doctrine of Total Depravity nor Calvinism.

Man has choice. Man has a will. Reformed Theology is not the notion of divinely created robots.

My reply to you was very clear and quite congruous. You asked if man can choose not to sin and I said the more practical question is whether man will sin. Why is that the better question? Because man, in every decision he makes, bases it on some level of disposition, prejudice or bias.

So then what does God tell us in the Bible about man's default disposition?

Romans 3:10-12
""None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."

That's pretty explicit. In fact, Jesus himself calls man evil (Matt 7:11).

However, God provides a way for us to choose sin less through the process of regeneration and sanctification. In fact we are called a "new creation" which is what Jesus references to Nicodemus in John 3. Mans disposition begins to change and so do his choices. We are being transformed into the image of Christ (2 Cor 3:18).

I think you are confusing free will and autonomy. Man is not autonomous from God and never will be.

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"Man has a choice"

How does that jive with total depravity, unconditional election, and irreversible grace?

How can you have a choice if you are totally depraved and not of the elect?

And did Calvin believe in free will?

For the record, I actually agree with what you posted.

But that is not classic Calvinism. Which is good in my opinion.

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I wouldn't include "total depravity" with the other 2 if I'm being honest.

Scripture is pretty clear that in our unregenerate state, we are "children of wrath" and "slaves to sin" and so on and so forth.

It's not wrong to point out that our sinful nature desires to resist God.

But the other two are much tougher to find any sort of scriptural support for.

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The problem is that with total depravity by definition there is no choice.

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it depends on what you mean by "no choice."

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Well if you believe in total depravity then Calvinism has to be your belief system.

That means the only way anyone can know the Lord is if Fod regenerates you without your choice as you are totally depraved.

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But that's my point. The concept of Total Depravity isn't particularly specific to Calvin. Essentially every church in the west has a concept of Original Sin that essentially aligns with total depravity.

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Huge difference between original sin and total depravity.

Man has always had a choice. That is what happened in the Garden of Eden. And God lets us decide who and what we want to worship and follow.

If you are totally depraved you do not have that choice.

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Do you think we have the exact same freedom of choice that Adam and Eve had in the Garden?

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Yes.

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So Adam and Eve had original sin when God created them?

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No. They used their free will to rebel against God.

How can you be totally depraved if you have a choice?

If you believe in total depravity, logically you can not believe in free will.

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So would this be a fair definition of your position?

Man is born in a similar state as Adam and Eve and can of their own choice sin or not sin? And that if we choose to not sin, we could get to heaven by not sinning?

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No. We are born with a sin nature.

God's grace for salvation through the cross is offered to everybody.

Everybody has a choice to choose through faith to choose to accept God's grace.

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Ok, so you've just described a difference. We are born with a sinful nature that Adam and Eve did not have.

You've just described the basics of total depravity. All parts of the body are affected by sin. No part is left free from it

Next you said we choose to accept God? How? Do we wake up one day, with out ever having heard about Jesus and say, "I've decided I want to believe in Jesus?" Completely on our own without ever having heard of Him or what He did for us?

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Of course not. We need the grace of God. But I believe that is offered to everybody and we have a choice to accept or reject,

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Ok...Now lets think about your birthday.

When you have a party and a friend of yours gives you a gift...Do you say you chose that gift? Or would you say, you can receive that gift or you can reject it?

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Of course. But that is free will. And Luther did not believe in that.

Quote:

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Of course. But that is free will. And Luther did not believe in that.

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I find it interesting that you've read a few Reformed sites try to connect Bondage of the Will to their theology and now you're suddenly an expert on theology.

This is Luther's Doctrinal writing, meant to be read and taught from. The Smalcald Articles.

This is his words:

[1] That Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, "was handed over to death for our trespasses and was raised for our justification" (Rom. 4[:25*]); [2] and he alone is "the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1[:29*]); and "the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all" (Isa. 53[:6*]); [3] furthermore, "All have sinned," and "they are now justified without merit by his grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus … by his blood" (Rom. 3[:2325*]).

[4] Now because this must be believed and may not be obtained or grasped otherwise with any work, law, or merit, it is clear and certain that this faith alone justifies us, as St. Paul says in Romans 3[:28*, 26*]: "For we hold that a person is justified by faith apart from works prescribed by the law"; and also, "that God alone24 is righteous and justifies the one who has faith in Jesus."


Can you point to where he speaks of double predestination in this doctrinal document?

dermdoc said:

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Bob_Ag said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Bob_Ag said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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ok, my bad. I erroneously thought you were Calvinist and believed in total depravity. Carry on and don't mind me

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Perhaps you can expand on this and why you think total depravity is incompatible with my response?

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Sure. You said man can choose not to sin. Under the idea of Total Depravity, man can only sin. Man has no choice in the matter. Every time a man does a good thing, it is because God performs a literal miracle forcing man to do good. Man is 100% a being of horrific evil except in case of these specific miraculous interventions. This mindset is completely incongruous with both your post at the beginning of the thread and your responses to me

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I don't think you understand the doctrine of Total Depravity nor Calvinism.

Man has choice. Man has a will. Reformed Theology is not the notion of divinely created robots.

My reply to you was very clear and quite congruous. You asked if man can choose not to sin and I said the more practical question is whether man will sin. Why is that the better question? Because man, in every decision he makes, bases it on some level of disposition, prejudice or bias.

So then what does God tell us in the Bible about man's default disposition?

Romans 3:10-12
""None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."

That's pretty explicit. In fact, Jesus himself calls man evil (Matt 7:11).

However, God provides a way for us to choose sin less through the process of regeneration and sanctification. In fact we are called a "new creation" which is what Jesus references to Nicodemus in John 3. Mans disposition begins to change and so do his choices. We are being transformed into the image of Christ (2 Cor 3:18).

I think you are confusing free will and autonomy. Man is not autonomous from God and never will be.

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"Man has a choice"

How does that jive with total depravity, unconditional election, and irreversible grace?

How can you have a choice if you are totally depraved and not of the elect?

And did Calvin believe in free will?

For the record, I actually agree with what you posted.

But that is not classic Calvinism. Which is good in my opinion.

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It is definitely classic Calvinism and same theology espoused by Luther in the Bondage of the Will.

We have to reconcile what the Bible gives us. It is quite clear that man sins, willfully (by choice). It is his nature to do so and I've posted the Scripture that affirms this. We all know this as Christians because we know we are in need of salvation. Paul calls us "children of wrath" before our regeneration. So yes, man makes choices, and he picks based on disposition, bias and prejudice. This is true for every decision we make, not just moral choices.
So man has choice, its just that his choice is tainted by hereditary sin and a will that desires transgression against God (Romans 5:12). All man is condemned by nature because of this (Romans 5:18).

This is why people get confused about the term Free Will. Sure, we are able to make choices, but our choices are never free of our own bias. This is why Luther and Calvin both state that mans will is in bondage to a bias to sin. This is Total Depravity and I'm not really sure how anyone can read the Bible and disagree that man is helplessly sinful apart from God.

So, how does that jive with election? Well, God has been electing people since the beginning of the Bible. I really don't understand the contention people have with election. Did he not select Abraham's lineage? Did he not select Jacob over Esau in the womb before either had done anything? Was Israel not "God's chosen people"? Did God not drown the entire human population aside from eight chosen people? Did Christ not elect his 12 disciples? Judas literally fulfilled prophecy, do you think he had any choice on whether he would be the perditious man?

The Bible is literally one long story of elective redemption. Why? Because man is depraved and chooses disobedience by nature. Have you ever asked yourself why there is so much Scripture on regeneration and rebirth? We are literally called dead people. Jesus tells Nicodemus one must be again to see the kingdom. Did you have any control over your natural birth? No. So what makes you think you have control of your spiritual rebirth?

Quote:

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Ezekiel 36

22 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. 23 And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Lord GOD, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. 24 I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. 28 You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29 And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses.

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How can you read this passage and think man has any say in the matter? Notice how many times God says "I will". He point blank says, I will cause you to walk in my statues and obey my rules. Not by mans doing, but God's. People either believe God is sovereign or they don't, but either way God does as he pleases because he is God. The only way man can overcome his sin is for God to come and completely transform you into a new creation (2 Cor 5:17-18).

This is why I posted earlier that Paul already foresees the objection you will have to this in Romans 9. Of course man rejects this.

Quote:

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14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

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He has mercy on who he chooses. That doesn't change the fact that we are all guilty and rightfully under his wrath prior to salvation. All are guilty, no one seeks for God. None are righteous. So if he chooses to extend mercy to some and not others, then "who are you, O man, to answer back to God?". Hence, it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, and not of your own doing. Jesus is the author and perfecter of that faith (Hebrews 12:2).

I would say examples of election in scripture is descriptive in those scenarios but not prescriptive for all of humanity.

Write the Gospel message. How do you write a Gospel message with the idea that some are chosen and predestined to receive salvation and others are not. I'm seriously asking. What is the Gospel message from a reformed theology perspective? Where is the Hope of salvation? Where is the work of Jesus made manifest if first you have to be pre-selected to benefit from it?

Quote:

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o, how does that jive with election? Well, God has been electing people since the beginning of the Bible. I really don't understand the contention people have with election. Did he not select Abraham's lineage? Did he not select Jacob over Esau in the womb before either had done anything? Was Israel not "God's chosen people"? Did God not drown the entire human population aside from eight chosen people? Did Christ not elect his 12 disciples? Judas literally fulfilled prophecy, do you think he had any choice on whether he would be the perditious man?

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But did God condemn Esau? No he did not, and our last image of him is he and Jacob at peace.

I just did an exegetical study of Matthew. The lineage of Jesus includes the Canaanites (Tamar/Rahab), Moabites (Ruth), and reference to the Hittites (Bathsheba). All groups that would have been "not elected."

Even your example of Jesus is an election of people, but then we also know there were many more disciples, and Jesus never claims that only those 12 are the elect. Remember, he then calls on Paul later.

So the story of Jesus seems to be the opposite of what you claim, with it being the reconciliation of all to God.

Excellent point. Reformed theology is inconsistent with scripture. It fundamentally cannot be true. Especially when the doctrine is fully thought out in all its implications. For example prayer. To be consistent with reformed theology one must admit prayer is merely an act of obedience and not effective to bring about change for someone's salvation. Or evangelism and missionary work is again purely obedience and not effectual.

I truly struggle understanding its appeal other than it's the itchy ear doctrine warned about and it's Christianity elitism. Those predestined are in the club and tough luck to everyone else. I guess one doesn't have to wrestle with their salvation with fear and trembling. Maybe that's why people like it. But again if that's the case it's inconsistent with Scripture. It boggles the mind.

So you do believe in double predestination?

kurt vonnegut said:

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GQaggie said:

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It doesn't seem like a weaker argument if it is exactly what you would expect. I am not surprised when my young children don't always understand why I make certain decisions. From their perspective, it may seem purposeless or even harmful. If a deity makes use of suffering, it would not be surprising for the creatures to not always understand the purpose.

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As I write this, I'm worried that I'm about to strawman you a bit. . . . but your comment about expectations above raised some possible 'circular reasoning' flags in my head. If we expect a God that is both beyond our understanding and that is benevolent, then we might expect a reality where we are unable to fully understand that benevolence.

Do we expect the appearance of gratuitous evil because that is what we observe?

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My argument is certainly not that we would view evil in a vacuum and reason our way to a benevolent deity. In the absence of specific revelation, I think the best humans could do is recognize that there is a higher power and that it has instilled in us a strong sense of right and wrong, along with a recognition that there is much that happens that offends that sense and guilt for my own shortcomings. It is difficult for me to imagine us getting much further than that.

Because of additional revelation, I do believe we experience a reality where we are unable to fully understand the benevolence of God. The condescension of God down to man in the person of Jesus certainly fits that bill for me.

My main point in the previous post was that I do not see any ground to say that a naturalistic explanation of the evidentiary problem of evil is more reasonable than the Christian worldview's explanation. If you believe in a benevolent God who utilizes the evil and suffering that exists to bring about His good plan, and you believe that God operates on a plane of understanding above our own, then it would be unsurprising to not understand how He is using every instance of evil or suffering. Gratuitous in this context will always be subjective from our standpoint. There may be a particular suffering for which I am unable to ascertain a higher purpose, but you are able to see it. In my eyes, it appears gratuitous, but it is not so for you. In other instances, neither of us can make sense of it, but without a complete knowledge of all variables, it remains a subjective designation. Humans are simply not in a position to designate any instance of suffering or evil as objectively gratuitous.

The problem of evil is designed to be an argument against an omnipotent and benevolent god. The believer in such a god does not need to show that evil supports that belief but rather that it is not inconsistent with it and that it does not render such a god as less probable than some other explanation. That is all I am trying to do. I'm not trying to argue my way to such a god from evil.

Yukon Cornelius said:

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Excellent point. Reformed theology is inconsistent with scripture. It fundamentally cannot be true. Especially when the doctrine is fully thought out in all its implications. For example prayer. To be consistent with reformed theology one must admit prayer is merely an act of obedience and not effective to bring about change for someone's salvation. Or evangelism and missionary work is again purely obedience and not effectual.

I truly struggle understanding its appeal other than it's the itchy ear doctrine warned about and it's Christianity elitism. Those predestined are in the club and tough luck to everyone else. I guess one doesn't have to wrestle with their salvation with fear and trembling. Maybe that's why people like it. But again if that's the case it's inconsistent with Scripture. It boggles the mind.

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The appeal is that it's logically consistent.

Two examples do a good job of showing this:

First, salvation.

- God desires that "all" man be saved.
- Not all people are saved
- Therefore, when God says all, He must mean "all of the elect" and not all people.

Second, Bread/Wine

- Jesus was 100% God and 100% Man
- Jesus said bread is His body and wine is His blood
- A man's body cannot be in mulitiple places at once
- Therefore, when communion takes place, it's only a "spiritual" communion with the divinity of Jesus present, because the "Man/humanity/body" of Jesus is only at the right hand of God. Calvin would say "the finite cannot contain the infinite"

That's why I said earlier that a challenge with Calvinism starts with a philosophical approach and then reads and reconciles the text with that in mind.

This is different than say the Lutheran approach that, as annoying and uncomfortable as it can be, in many places leads us to say, "We don't know because it's a mystery that has not been revealed to us in this life."

So you believe God doesn't want all people saved then?

Heck of a Gospel message you have…


Your premise to be logical you have to prove that God gets His desires in this verse. Which is all men saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Do you have scriptural support for that claim?

"This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time."
1 Timothy 2:3-6 ESV

Yukon Cornelius said:

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So you believe God doesn't want all people saved then?

Heck of a Gospel message you have…


Your premise to be logical you have to prove that God gets His desires in this verse. Which is all men saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Do you have scriptural support for that claim?

"This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time."
1 Timothy 2:3-6 ESV

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Woah...I was explaining what is appealing about Calvinism...I didn't say I agree with it!

Yukon Cornelius said:

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I would say examples of election in scripture is descriptive in those scenarios but not prescriptive for all of humanity.

Write the Gospel message. How do you write a Gospel message with the idea that some are chosen and predestined to receive salvation and others are not. I'm seriously asking. What is the Gospel message from a reformed theology perspective? Where is the Hope of salvation? Where is the work of Jesus made manifest if first you have to be pre-selected to benefit from it?

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Really? Is God prescriptive enough for you here?

Quote:

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Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace

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Or here?

Quote:

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2 Timothy 1
9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

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I'm just not sure how more abundantly clear the Bible can make election.

I've posted the Gospel over and over again in this thread. You recognize your corrupted will and you plead with God for grace just like the Publican. It's not complicated. God opposes the proud. Stop thinking man has any say in the matter. It's not about us, its about Christ as we are his gift, his bride. "All that the Father gives me" he says in John 6, "he will raise up".

You are caught up in the end result and what you are completely missing is the process. God writes his laws on our hearts and unhardens it (Ezekiel 36). He regenerates us. He gives us the will to want him and to turn from sin. How else could we possibly turn from our corrupted sinful bias without divine intervention on our hearts and minds?

Have you ever considered deeply why man has to literally have the Holy Spirit, a sovereign deity, indwelling in us, to sanctify us in the image of Christ? Its because its not possible to do that on our own. So in what world do you think you are capable of justifying yourself before a holy God of your own power and volition? How many times can the scriptures tell us it is by grace we are saved before we believe it. No work of man involved.

The Gospel starts with recognizing your depravity and powerless over sin. The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are one big example of the types of people God chooses and it is sinners who recognize their sin. The Gospels are also one big example of who Jesus opposes, and its the proud. The people like the Pharisees that think they are in control of their salvation by righteous works.

dermdoc said:

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So you do believe in double predestination?

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Please define it first.

Bob_Ag said:

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dermdoc said:

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So you do believe in double predestination?

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Please define it first.

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That God pre ordains who the elect are. And passes over the rest to be damned forever.

The elect can not lose their Salvation and everybody else can not gain it.

Your conclusions on what those verses mean must align with the entirety of scripture. And the conclusion you are a drawing does not. It is in contradiction to scripture. The Gospel message is we are all sinners. We are separated from God. We have Jesus who died and rose again and Atoned for our sins. We either accept His offering or reject it by faith. There is no fine print that says only applies to those God has pre-selected.

Bob_Ag said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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I would say examples of election in scripture is descriptive in those scenarios but not prescriptive for all of humanity.

Write the Gospel message. How do you write a Gospel message with the idea that some are chosen and predestined to receive salvation and others are not. I'm seriously asking. What is the Gospel message from a reformed theology perspective? Where is the Hope of salvation? Where is the work of Jesus made manifest if first you have to be pre-selected to benefit from it?

---

Really? Is God prescriptive enough for you here?

Quote:

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Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace

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Or here?

Quote:

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2 Timothy 1
9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

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I'm just not sure how more abundantly clear the Bible can make election.

I've posted the Gospel over and over again in this thread. You recognize your corrupted will and you plead with God for grace just like the Publican. It's not complicated. God opposes the proud. Stop thinking man has any say in the matter. It's not about us, its about Christ as we are his gift, his bride. "All that the Father gives me" he says in John 6, "he will raise up".

You are caught up in the end result and what you are completely missing is the process. God writes his laws on our hearts and unhardens it (Ezekiel 36). He regenerates us. He gives us the will to want him and to turn from sin. How else could we possibly turn from our corrupted sinful bias without divine intervention on our hearts and minds?

Have you ever considered deeply why man has to literally have the Holy Spirit, a sovereign deity, indwelling in us, to sanctify us in the image of Christ? Its because its not possible to do that on our own. So in what world do you think you are capable of justifying yourself before a holy God of your own power and volition? How many times can the scriptures tell us it is by grace we are saved before we believe it. No work of man involved.

The Gospel starts with recognizing your depravity and powerless over sin. The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are one big example of the types of people God chooses and it is sinners who recognize their sin. The Gospels are also one big example of who Jesus opposes, and its the proud. The people like the Pharisees that think they are in control of their salvation by righteous works.

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Your prooftext of 2 Timothy is wildly out of context if the claim is that somehow is directed to the elect.

You quotes verse 9...but who is the "us" that has a special calling?

Quote:

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3 I thank God whom I serve, as did my ancestors, with a clear conscience, as I remember you constantly in my prayers night and day. 4 As I remember your tears, I long to see you, that I may be filled with joy. 5 I am reminded of your sincere faith, a faith that dwelt first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice and now, I am sure, dwells in you as well. 6 For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands, 7 for God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.

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Unless Lois and Eunice are meant to be generic to "all grandmothers and mothers" (it's not), then we see that this is a specific letter to Timothy, and the "called to a holy calling" refers to their role as Preacher/Teacher.