I believe that like Josephs brothers who meant it for evil, God will find a way to make the ugly middle east advance his agenda.

So much pain and suffering to 'advance his agenda'. Either he has the power to fix it and doesn't or doesn't have the power to fix it. Either way, it's not a good reflection on him.

I thought hard about responding because the problem of evil/suffering is something this board has done many times and I don't think any minds have been changed.

However, how exactly did things turn out better (good) for your Dad and Sister? And if god used those circumstances for YOUR betterment, how is that good for them?

Macarthur said:

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So much pain and suffering to 'advance his agenda'. Either he has the power to fix it and doesn't or doesn't have the power to fix it. Either way, it's not a good reflection on him.

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Considering the fact that we're lectured so hard about how we just need to pray after every mass shooting and all the other horrible atrocities that happen regularly, consider me pretty damn unimpressed with God's way of handling evil.

Bob_Ag said:

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God allows evil, but he's not the author of it. In fact, moral and spiritual evil are actions of transgression against God. But yes, like Joseph and his brothers, they intended something for evil while God used it for good. All things happen according to the counsel of his will and he is always perfectly in control no matter how hard that is for us to understand. Even in calamity.

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Aren't you a Calvinist? How can God allow evil but not author it if only God has free will?

Also, a clear definition of evil always helps these things. Sometimes evil means suffering, hardship, and pain. Sometimes evil means cruelty, hatred, and sin. Makes a big difference when talking about it

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Bob_Ag said:

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God allows evil, but he's not the author of it. In fact, moral and spiritual evil are actions of transgression against God. But yes, like Joseph and his brothers, they intended something for evil while God used it for good. All things happen according to the counsel of his will and he is always perfectly in control no matter how hard that is for us to understand. Even in calamity.

---

Aren't you a Calvinist? How can God allow evil but not author it if only God has free will?

Also, a clear definition of evil always helps these things. Sometimes evil means suffering, hardship, and pain. Sometimes evil means cruelty, hatred, and sin. Makes a big difference when talking about it

---

Say a judge ordains the execution of a murderer to uphold justice. The executioner carries out the sentence with malice in his heart toward the murderer. Did the judge author sin?

Quote:

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This is where people will try to let God off the hook for evil, but he's not asking for that. People will create excuses for why God allows evil to exist. God is not the creator of evil nor does he condone it. He offers harsh judgment and wrath for all who choose to do evil, but he does allow its existence.

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God doesn't just allow for the existence of evil. He's the author of evil, the creator of death and suffering. There is no thoughtful way to lay those at the feet of men.

Quote:

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It would be impossible to have a sovereign God who doesn't have the power to stop evil, which means evil is a part of his ordained will. Furthermore, man is inherently evil in heart which is explicitly stated in the Gospels hence our need for rebirth.

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Sounds like a design flaw that should be taken up with the head of product development.

Quote:

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This is an age old philosophical question. The answer is quite simply for God's glory. Evil in this world allows us to see God's goodness, grace and mercy. The awareness of suffering and sin is what makes us aware of the need for a savior because God is offering something much greater than any affliction in this life. Many people will not be able to accept this.

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This sort of thinking is always peculiar to me. There are some ways in which I think suffering can be justified. But self glorification isn't one of them. I just don't see how you say god is omni-benevolent and omniscient and then answer the question "why must we suffer so" with "to glorify myself".

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Bob_Ag said:

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God allows evil, but he's not the author of it. In fact, moral and spiritual evil are actions of transgression against God. But yes, like Joseph and his brothers, they intended something for evil while God used it for good. All things happen according to the counsel of his will and he is always perfectly in control no matter how hard that is for us to understand. Even in calamity.

---

Aren't you a Calvinist? How can God allow evil but not author it if only God has free will?

Also, a clear definition of evil always helps these things. Sometimes evil means suffering, hardship, and pain. Sometimes evil means cruelty, hatred, and sin. Makes a big difference when talking about it

---

Say a judge ordains the execution of a murderer to uphold justice. The executioner carries out the sentence with malice in his heart toward the murderer. Did the judge author sin?

---

The death penalty in the Bible was carried out either directly by God or by the community as a whole, starting with the witnesses of the crime. There was never any other way to legally execute someone in the Bible. Christians from ancient times also felt like the death penalty was sinful, as anyone could come to redemption as long as they were still alive. So they would frequently blind and/or maim people to make them harmless, but that would still leave them able to be redeemed. So I guess no matter how you slice it, a judge ordering an executioner to kill someone is sinful.

I still fail to see how that relates to my question regarding free will in any way

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Say God ordains the execution of a murderer to uphold justice. The executioner carries out the sentence with malice in his heart toward the murderer. Did God author sin?

Martin Q. Blank said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Bob_Ag said:

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God allows evil, but he's not the author of it. In fact, moral and spiritual evil are actions of transgression against God. But yes, like Joseph and his brothers, they intended something for evil while God used it for good. All things happen according to the counsel of his will and he is always perfectly in control no matter how hard that is for us to understand. Even in calamity.

---

Aren't you a Calvinist? How can God allow evil but not author it if only God has free will?

Also, a clear definition of evil always helps these things. Sometimes evil means suffering, hardship, and pain. Sometimes evil means cruelty, hatred, and sin. Makes a big difference when talking about it

---

Say a judge ordains the execution of a murderer to uphold justice. The executioner carries out the sentence with malice in his heart toward the murderer. Did the judge author sin?

---

The death penalty in the Bible was carried out either directly by God or by the community as a whole, starting with the witnesses of the crime. There was never any other way to legally execute someone in the Bible. Christians from ancient times also felt like the death penalty was sinful, as anyone could come to redemption as long as they were still alive. So they would frequently blind and/or maim people to make them harmless, but that would still leave them able to be redeemed. So I guess no matter how you slice it, a judge ordering an executioner to kill someone is sinful.

I still fail to see how that relates to my question regarding free will in any way

---

Say God ordains the execution of a murderer to uphold justice. The executioner carries out the sentence with malice in his heart toward the murderer. Did God author sin?

---

As a thought experiment, since I can't remember God ever directing a single individual to kill another individual, then I need to know if God created the executioner and put the malice in his heart. If so, then God did author this sin.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Bob_Ag said:

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God allows evil, but he's not the author of it. In fact, moral and spiritual evil are actions of transgression against God. But yes, like Joseph and his brothers, they intended something for evil while God used it for good. All things happen according to the counsel of his will and he is always perfectly in control no matter how hard that is for us to understand. Even in calamity.

---

Aren't you a Calvinist? How can God allow evil but not author it if only God has free will?

Also, a clear definition of evil always helps these things. Sometimes evil means suffering, hardship, and pain. Sometimes evil means cruelty, hatred, and sin. Makes a big difference when talking about it

---

Say a judge ordains the execution of a murderer to uphold justice. The executioner carries out the sentence with malice in his heart toward the murderer. Did the judge author sin?

---

The death penalty in the Bible was carried out either directly by God or by the community as a whole, starting with the witnesses of the crime. There was never any other way to legally execute someone in the Bible. Christians from ancient times also felt like the death penalty was sinful, as anyone could come to redemption as long as they were still alive. So they would frequently blind and/or maim people to make them harmless, but that would still leave them able to be redeemed. So I guess no matter how you slice it, a judge ordering an executioner to kill someone is sinful.

I still fail to see how that relates to my question regarding free will in any way

---

Say God ordains the execution of a murderer to uphold justice. The executioner carries out the sentence with malice in his heart toward the murderer. Did God author sin?

---

As a thought experiment, since I can't remember God ever directing a single individual to kill another individual, then I need to know if God created the executioner and put the malice in his heart. If so, then God did author this sin.

---

He created the executioner, but the malice originated with the person.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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As a thought experiment, since I can't remember God ever directing a single individual to kill another individual . . . .

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Ummmm. . . . really?

Martin Q. Blank said:

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He created the executioner, but the malice originated with the person.

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Was the executioner created without sin or inherently evil as others above suggest?

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Bob_Ag said:

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God allows evil, but he's not the author of it. In fact, moral and spiritual evil are actions of transgression against God. But yes, like Joseph and his brothers, they intended something for evil while God used it for good. All things happen according to the counsel of his will and he is always perfectly in control no matter how hard that is for us to understand. Even in calamity.

---

Aren't you a Calvinist? How can God allow evil but not author it if only God has free will?

Also, a clear definition of evil always helps these things. Sometimes evil means suffering, hardship, and pain. Sometimes evil means cruelty, hatred, and sin. Makes a big difference when talking about it

---

Say a judge ordains the execution of a murderer to uphold justice. The executioner carries out the sentence with malice in his heart toward the murderer. Did the judge author sin?

---

The death penalty in the Bible was carried out either directly by God or by the community as a whole, starting with the witnesses of the crime. There was never any other way to legally execute someone in the Bible. Christians from ancient times also felt like the death penalty was sinful, as anyone could come to redemption as long as they were still alive. So they would frequently blind and/or maim people to make them harmless, but that would still leave them able to be redeemed. So I guess no matter how you slice it, a judge ordering an executioner to kill someone is sinful.

I still fail to see how that relates to my question regarding free will in any way

---

Say God ordains the execution of a murderer to uphold justice. The executioner carries out the sentence with malice in his heart toward the murderer. Did God author sin?

---

As a thought experiment, since I can't remember God ever directing a single individual to kill another individual, then I need to know if God created the executioner and put the malice in his heart. If so, then God did author this sin.

---

In the OT, Saul was punished for not killing people.

dermdoc said:

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barbacoa taco said:

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Macarthur said:

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So much pain and suffering to 'advance his agenda'. Either he has the power to fix it and doesn't or doesn't have the power to fix it. Either way, it's not a good reflection on him.

---

Considering the fact that we're lectured so hard about how we just need to pray after every mass shooting and all the other horrible atrocities that happen regularly, consider me pretty damn unimpressed with God's way of handling evil.

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That is where faith comes in.

As a believer, I trust God and believe He is good. And that everything works out for good in His plan.

And I am not lecturing. Just saying what I believe. And it gives me great peace.

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And that's fine. The problem of evil is one of the oldest religious debates in existence.

But to use recent events as an example, I am often lectured by Christian conservatives (looking at you, F16) that there's nothing we should do after every single mass shooting other than pray. Because evil will always find a way, blah blah blah. What I hear from that is "let's do nothing and maintain the status quo."

But if I give that position some consideration, then God is doing a pretty terrible job at making things better, considering this problem isn't going away and is only getting worse. So I'm left with no conclusion other than 1) God doesn't care, or 2) God is powerless to stop it.

I get it, bad things happen. And I'm sorry to hear about your sister and other things you have gone through. It's just hard for me to believe there's some grand divine plan out there and all of this (e.g. the atrocities currently ongoing in Israel and Palestine) is part of it.

Dad-O-Lot said:

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Not all difficulties are evil.

Not all death is evil.

Not everything we think of as "bad" is "evil"

Disasters, etc... are not "evil".

"Evil" is based on intention. Evil comes from the hearts and minds of fallen entities; of which man is one.

God did not create "evil"; God gave free will, and I am sure he knew that Evil would result; but without free will, there is also no love.

In a strange way, the existence of evil is allowed by God so that Love is possible.

If you want to be able to choose good, you must have the option to choose bad. If there is no option to choose bad, then it's not really a choice.

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Great post. And some of the reasons I am not a Calvinist. Without free will, there is no true love. And Scripture says clearly that God is love.

I might also add that if there was no evil, how would we know what good is?

kurt vonnegut said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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He created the executioner, but the malice originated with the person.

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Was the executioner created without sin or inherently evil as others above suggest?

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He was created without sin, but mutable.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Bob_Ag said:

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God allows evil, but he's not the author of it. In fact, moral and spiritual evil are actions of transgression against God. But yes, like Joseph and his brothers, they intended something for evil while God used it for good. All things happen according to the counsel of his will and he is always perfectly in control no matter how hard that is for us to understand. Even in calamity.

---

Aren't you a Calvinist? How can God allow evil but not author it if only God has free will?

Also, a clear definition of evil always helps these things. Sometimes evil means suffering, hardship, and pain. Sometimes evil means cruelty, hatred, and sin. Makes a big difference when talking about it

---

Say a judge ordains the execution of a murderer to uphold justice. The executioner carries out the sentence with malice in his heart toward the murderer. Did the judge author sin?

---

The death penalty in the Bible was carried out either directly by God or by the community as a whole, starting with the witnesses of the crime. There was never any other way to legally execute someone in the Bible. Christians from ancient times also felt like the death penalty was sinful, as anyone could come to redemption as long as they were still alive. So they would frequently blind and/or maim people to make them harmless, but that would still leave them able to be redeemed. So I guess no matter how you slice it, a judge ordering an executioner to kill someone is sinful.

I still fail to see how that relates to my question regarding free will in any way

---

Say God ordains the execution of a murderer to uphold justice. The executioner carries out the sentence with malice in his heart toward the murderer. Did God author sin?

---

As a thought experiment, since I can't remember God ever directing a single individual to kill another individual, then I need to know if God created the executioner and put the malice in his heart. If so, then God did author this sin.

---

He created the executioner, but the malice originated with the person.

---

If the malice originated with the executioner, then that individual must have had free will. Without free will, the executioner can't originate anything. Which doesn't answer my original question at all

dermdoc said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

God allows evil, but he's not the author of it. In fact, moral and spiritual evil are actions of transgression against God. But yes, like Joseph and his brothers, they intended something for evil while God used it for good. All things happen according to the counsel of his will and he is always perfectly in control no matter how hard that is for us to understand. Even in calamity.

---

Aren't you a Calvinist? How can God allow evil but not author it if only God has free will?

Also, a clear definition of evil always helps these things. Sometimes evil means suffering, hardship, and pain. Sometimes evil means cruelty, hatred, and sin. Makes a big difference when talking about it

---

Say a judge ordains the execution of a murderer to uphold justice. The executioner carries out the sentence with malice in his heart toward the murderer. Did the judge author sin?

---

The death penalty in the Bible was carried out either directly by God or by the community as a whole, starting with the witnesses of the crime. There was never any other way to legally execute someone in the Bible. Christians from ancient times also felt like the death penalty was sinful, as anyone could come to redemption as long as they were still alive. So they would frequently blind and/or maim people to make them harmless, but that would still leave them able to be redeemed. So I guess no matter how you slice it, a judge ordering an executioner to kill someone is sinful.

I still fail to see how that relates to my question regarding free will in any way

---

Say God ordains the execution of a murderer to uphold justice. The executioner carries out the sentence with malice in his heart toward the murderer. Did God author sin?

---

As a thought experiment, since I can't remember God ever directing a single individual to kill another individual, then I need to know if God created the executioner and put the malice in his heart. If so, then God did author this sin.

---

In the OT, Saul was punished for not killing people.

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He was punished because his collective army didn't kill a group of people. Not exactly better on the modern morality scale, but not one individual being commanded to kill a specific other individual. The closest I can get is Abraham and Isaac, Eglon and Ehud, or maybe Jephthat and his daughter but none really fit

ramblin_ag02 said:

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dermdoc said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

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God allows evil, but he's not the author of it. In fact, moral and spiritual evil are actions of transgression against God. But yes, like Joseph and his brothers, they intended something for evil while God used it for good. All things happen according to the counsel of his will and he is always perfectly in control no matter how hard that is for us to understand. Even in calamity.

---

Aren't you a Calvinist? How can God allow evil but not author it if only God has free will?

Also, a clear definition of evil always helps these things. Sometimes evil means suffering, hardship, and pain. Sometimes evil means cruelty, hatred, and sin. Makes a big difference when talking about it

---

Say a judge ordains the execution of a murderer to uphold justice. The executioner carries out the sentence with malice in his heart toward the murderer. Did the judge author sin?

---

The death penalty in the Bible was carried out either directly by God or by the community as a whole, starting with the witnesses of the crime. There was never any other way to legally execute someone in the Bible. Christians from ancient times also felt like the death penalty was sinful, as anyone could come to redemption as long as they were still alive. So they would frequently blind and/or maim people to make them harmless, but that would still leave them able to be redeemed. So I guess no matter how you slice it, a judge ordering an executioner to kill someone is sinful.

I still fail to see how that relates to my question regarding free will in any way

---

Say God ordains the execution of a murderer to uphold justice. The executioner carries out the sentence with malice in his heart toward the murderer. Did God author sin?

---

As a thought experiment, since I can't remember God ever directing a single individual to kill another individual, then I need to know if God created the executioner and put the malice in his heart. If so, then God did author this sin.

---

In the OT, Saul was punished for not killing people.

---

He was punished because his collective army didn't kill a group of people. Not exactly better on the modern morality scale, but not one individual being commanded to kill a specific other individual. The closest I can get is Abraham and Isaac, Eglon and Ehud, or maybe Jephthat and his daughter but none really fit

---

Agree after thinking about it.

Macarthur said:

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So much pain and suffering to 'advance his agenda'. Either he has the power to fix it and doesn't or doesn't have the power to fix it. Either way, it's not a good reflection on him.

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As we see things dimly at this point in time. Jesus, being who he was, had insight into the future payoff.

Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart. 4 You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin

God doesn't get to free himself of intension. There is nothing outside his intent when it comes to nature with perhaps the exception of conscious will.

God sending an earthquake is like men sending a bomb, everything that happened was completely in his control.

Gos is the architect of death and suffering, it's without question. So then to your point, what about the death and suffering god created makes it good?

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Bob_Ag said:

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God allows evil, but he's not the author of it. In fact, moral and spiritual evil are actions of transgression against God. But yes, like Joseph and his brothers, they intended something for evil while God used it for good. All things happen according to the counsel of his will and he is always perfectly in control no matter how hard that is for us to understand. Even in calamity.

---

Aren't you a Calvinist? How can God allow evil but not author it if only God has free will?

Also, a clear definition of evil always helps these things. Sometimes evil means suffering, hardship, and pain. Sometimes evil means cruelty, hatred, and sin. Makes a big difference when talking about it

---

Say a judge ordains the execution of a murderer to uphold justice. The executioner carries out the sentence with malice in his heart toward the murderer. Did the judge author sin?

---

The death penalty in the Bible was carried out either directly by God or by the community as a whole, starting with the witnesses of the crime. There was never any other way to legally execute someone in the Bible. Christians from ancient times also felt like the death penalty was sinful, as anyone could come to redemption as long as they were still alive. So they would frequently blind and/or maim people to make them harmless, but that would still leave them able to be redeemed. So I guess no matter how you slice it, a judge ordering an executioner to kill someone is sinful.

I still fail to see how that relates to my question regarding free will in any way

---

Say God ordains the execution of a murderer to uphold justice. The executioner carries out the sentence with malice in his heart toward the murderer. Did God author sin?

---

As a thought experiment, since I can't remember God ever directing a single individual to kill another individual, then I need to know if God created the executioner and put the malice in his heart. If so, then God did author this sin.

---

He created the executioner, but the malice originated with the person.

---

If the malice originated with the executioner, then that individual must have had free will. Without free will, the executioner can't originate anything. Which doesn't answer my original question at all

---

God ordained the execution which the executioner carried out. Yet the sin originated in the person, not God. It maintains God as sovereign yet not the author of sin.

But in this case God also made the executioner, made him capable of malice, and didn't give him a choice about whether to be malicious or not. You can't do this "one step removed" argument when people don't have free will and God has all the power and authority

Dad-O-Lot said:

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If you want to be able to choose good, you must have the option to choose bad. If there is no option to choose bad, then it's not really a choice.

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Two points:

I think its fine to say that there must be options available in order for an action to be considered a choice. But, for us humans, judging a choice 'good' or 'bad' gets tricky in a hurry when there is either no objective measure or no way of understanding that objective. A claim that "my church" or "my religion" knows the Truth because God talks to us and the Devil speaks to you is arrogant. And the claim that Truth is written on our hearts is dismissive and insulting to every honest person who arrives at different conclusions about good versus bad.

God could, being all powerful, magic all the information into our brains that would allow us to fully understand the consequences of our actions and choices. And armed with that knowledge, our choices would be better informed. The consequences of our actions would be freely chosen. But of course, God doesn't do that. The counter to this argument would be that God does not judge us negatively for our own honest ignorance. In which case, I doubt there is much of anything we do in this life that God can judge us by.

Next, what choice do we actually have? Lets say that I think 'x' is a moral action but that God disagrees. I can choose to concede to God even though I don't actually agree or I can choose Hell or annihilation. The only choice the Christian God offers us is absolute renouncement of any alternative belief and total servitude . . . . or being poofed out of existence (or worse).

So, in summary. We are not given sufficient information. And then, judged on the actions we made with insufficient information and then mandated that we reject any and all beliefs, experiences, thoughts, and actions that disagree with the standard that we were not properly given or else face annihilation. This is an awfully limited definition of 'choice'.