During the course of another thread the following challenge was made to myself. The topic of that discuss was whether God answers Jewish prayers.
Dermdoc and myself have sparred over this topic before. The main crux of the argument is whether the christian church has completely superseded Judaism as the true Israel (The primary textual argument against this theology is in my thread discussing the term "All Isreal" as used in the Old Testament). Jews and Christians share common texts, but they interpret them differently. This sharing scripture did not lead to mutual respect, but to claims of mutually exclusive understanding. The followers of Jesus in the "early church" offered the idea of co-option, which led to replacement theology or supersessionism.
Justin Martyr, in Chapter 138 of his Dialogue with Trypho (150 CE) claimed that numerous Old Testament passages function as testimony fortelling the coming of Christ. (Example: Noah's ark = the Cross). Just interpreted these Old Testament passages to condemn Jewish practices, such as circumcision (which was used for Jewish observance as a whole) aruging that it was a punishment for the Jewish rejection of Christ. (Justin, Dial. 16:2-4). He also argued circumcision was unnecessary for Christians because Adam was not created circumcised (Justin Dial. 19). (The rabbis (the successors to the Pharisees responded in Genesis Rabbah 11.6 that Adam was uncircumcised because just as nature needed finishing, so did man).
Jusin further argued that the Jews lost the covenant because only Christians could correctly interpret the covenant because only Christians could correctly interpret the scriptures. He writes the following the Jewish people "... we [Christians] obey them [ the Scriptures], but you [Jews] when your read, do not understand their sense.". (Justin, Dial. 29). the claim follows from Paul's assertion in 2 Corinthians 3:14-16 which says" But their minds were hardened. Indeed to this very day, when they hear the reading of the old covenant, that same veil is there, since only in Christ is it set aside. Indeed, to this very day, whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their minds; but when one turns to the YHWH, the veil is removed." Following Paul, Justin argued that Jesus' followers, unlike Jews undertood the meaning of the OT. Justin's teaching, as well as complementary teachings of the "church fathers" provided the basis for what is known as "replacement theology" or "supersessionism" or "substitution theology" --- the claim that Christianity is now the biblical Israel and that Jews and their followers are explicity excluded from God's kingdom. Perhaps the most striking example from the "church fathers" is John Chrysostom who wrote sermmons titled "Against the Jews". In these manuscripts he thunders at his Christian audience about the dangers of attending synogogue and celebrating Jewish holidays. Apparently at this time in the fourth century CE the boundaries between Christianity and Judiasm were still very blurred.
In any event, supersessionism rely on the NT to justify their racist theology One strand claims Judaism is old and superseded and that the "new covenant with God" or the "new testament" replaces the old See Hebrews 8:8-13. But a second strand describes Jesus as a fulfillment of what was prophesied. It holds the OT is the "first draft" or a prototype and therefore as replaced by the "new". 1 Corinthians 10:1-11. This second strand relies heavily on "typology" wherein Jesus is both the fulfillment of the Old Covenant ("Jesus is new Adam" Romans 5:12-21) and the template through which the Old Testament should be interpreted. This typological approah is especially prominent in the Epistle to the Hebrews which depicts the Lecitical pristhood and the sacrificial practices of Judaism as templates or types which Jesus fulfilles and surpasses.
The condemantion of Jews by Justin and the other "church fathers" and their successors, sometimes called the "Against the Jews" tradition or the "teaching of contempt [of jews]" contined to proliferate as Constantine gained control of the Roman Empire and later Christian rulers began their systematic condemnation of Jews. Such teachings included supersessionism and polemics against Jewish teachings. But to the Jews, Jesus was a Jews and died a Jew. He has claimed to be a messiah just as others had done and his death had not brought forth any messianic age. The Jews were not brought back to the land of Israel. From the estrangement of the Jews and Christians and the increasing Gentile membership of the church, comes much of the NT polemic.
But the tradition did not end there. In the Second Century AD Bishop Melito of Sardis offered an Easter homily titled Peri Pascha which taught that Jews killed Jesus. Bishop Melito cited Matthew 27:25; Acts 3:15; 1 Thess. 2:14-16.This idea of Jews as the killer of Christ became accentuated and coupled with Jews as "Christ-Killers" was the church's proclomation that not only had God replaced Jews with Gentiles (now Christians) as the "elect people" (citing 1 Peter 2:9) but also that Jews were to be punished for their long history of rebellion. John Chyrstotom (archibishop of constantinople) (349-407) applied curses to Jews in his "Against the Jews (I.7.4) and he interprets the destruction of the temple as a sign of the Jewish People's eternal rejections See Jeremiah 7.4. These "church fathers" were the majority and not the minority. Their ideas were made into the political theories that flourished during the middle ages and during the age of the post-modern church.
Sections of "Against the Jews were used as liturgy in the Byzantine Empire's liturgy for Holy Week. "Against the Jews" was translated into Russian in the eleventh centruy was was read at least yearly in medieval Europe, in Byzantium, and in Russia. On Holy Thurday in the Orthodox church, still recitied in some Orthodox Churches to this day is the following quote "the murderers of God, the lawless nation of Jews". To be fair, just as the Christian condemned Jew, so did the rabbits condemn Jesus and the NT. But none of them directly mentioned Christianity. Anti-Christian traditions continued for hundreds of years and included teachings such as "If a man says to you 'I am a God', he is a liar; if he says, ' I am the son of man' in the end people will laugh at him'; if he says 'I will go up to heaven' he says, but shall no perform it" (y. Ta'an. 65b).
The supersessionitst view was the majority and primary view in Christianity until the aftermath of the Shoah (the Holocaust) which featured the murder of millions of Jews. During the time of the third Reich, the theologians of the nazi party utilized the foundations laid by the "church fathers" and supersessionism to preach the following sermon:
"Today is the tenth Sunday after Trinity, a day which has for centuries been dedicated in the Christian world to the memory of the destruction of Jerusalem and the fate of the Jewish people: and the gospel lessons for this Sunday throw a light on the dark and sinister history of this people [the Jews] which can neither live nor die because it is under a curse which forbids it to do… Even Cain receives God's mark, that no one may kill him; and Jesus' command 'Love your enemies!' leaves no room for exception. But we cannot change the fact that until the end of days the Jewish people must go its way under the burden which Jesus' decree has laid upon it. 'Behold your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth till ye shall say Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord.'".
But upon the discovery of the execution of the fruits of heretical supersessionism posited by the "church fathers", a number of Catholic, Christian, and Orthodox Christians came to repudiate the teaching of contempt [supersessionism] for Jews. The World Council of Churchs in 1948 acknolweded the past anti-semitism of the church and acknowledged that the teachings of supersessionism contributed to anti-semitism. Since then, many Protestant churches tackled the "Against the Jews" tradition and repudiated Luther's violent invective against Jews. In 1965, the Vatican document Nostra Aetate states "from the Jews sprang the Apostles". Since then, the Vatican decreed that Jews should not be responsile for the death of Jesus.
RESPONSE --
Yes Dermdoc, I have "googled" nazi theology. It is based upon the theology you espouse.
[url=https://app.rossintelligence.com/similar-language?q=][/url]
Quote:Quote:Same salvation. Take your nazi theology somewhere else.Quote:Quote:Quote:Quote:Quote:I guess you also think he didn't start answering prayers until 0AD also huh?Quote:
God is omniscient so He hears all prayers.
Scripture is clear that Jesus is the only way to God.
I have no idea whether He answers prayers from non believers as God can do what He wants.
You are accusing Derm of a heresy that I am very certain Derm does not subscribe to.
Thanks. Always consider the source.
Here is short list of some answered prayers:
- Abraham's prayer for Lot and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 18:22-23)
- Hannah's prayer of praise and thanksgiving for her son Samuel (1 Samuel 2:1-10)
- Moses' prayer of intercession for the Israelites and request for God's presence (Exodus 33:12-23)
- Hezekiah's prayer of faith and desperation for God's help against the Assyrians (2 Kings 19:14-19)
None of these people knew who Jesus was. Some knew the angel of the Lord. But they did not know Him as Jesus and he did not die to save them. The angel forgave sins.
Different covenant.
Wow.
Have you ever googled nazi theology?
Dermdoc and myself have sparred over this topic before. The main crux of the argument is whether the christian church has completely superseded Judaism as the true Israel (The primary textual argument against this theology is in my thread discussing the term "All Isreal" as used in the Old Testament). Jews and Christians share common texts, but they interpret them differently. This sharing scripture did not lead to mutual respect, but to claims of mutually exclusive understanding. The followers of Jesus in the "early church" offered the idea of co-option, which led to replacement theology or supersessionism.
Justin Martyr, in Chapter 138 of his Dialogue with Trypho (150 CE) claimed that numerous Old Testament passages function as testimony fortelling the coming of Christ. (Example: Noah's ark = the Cross). Just interpreted these Old Testament passages to condemn Jewish practices, such as circumcision (which was used for Jewish observance as a whole) aruging that it was a punishment for the Jewish rejection of Christ. (Justin, Dial. 16:2-4). He also argued circumcision was unnecessary for Christians because Adam was not created circumcised (Justin Dial. 19). (The rabbis (the successors to the Pharisees responded in Genesis Rabbah 11.6 that Adam was uncircumcised because just as nature needed finishing, so did man).
Jusin further argued that the Jews lost the covenant because only Christians could correctly interpret the covenant because only Christians could correctly interpret the scriptures. He writes the following the Jewish people "... we [Christians] obey them [ the Scriptures], but you [Jews] when your read, do not understand their sense.". (Justin, Dial. 29). the claim follows from Paul's assertion in 2 Corinthians 3:14-16 which says" But their minds were hardened. Indeed to this very day, when they hear the reading of the old covenant, that same veil is there, since only in Christ is it set aside. Indeed, to this very day, whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their minds; but when one turns to the YHWH, the veil is removed." Following Paul, Justin argued that Jesus' followers, unlike Jews undertood the meaning of the OT. Justin's teaching, as well as complementary teachings of the "church fathers" provided the basis for what is known as "replacement theology" or "supersessionism" or "substitution theology" --- the claim that Christianity is now the biblical Israel and that Jews and their followers are explicity excluded from God's kingdom. Perhaps the most striking example from the "church fathers" is John Chrysostom who wrote sermmons titled "Against the Jews". In these manuscripts he thunders at his Christian audience about the dangers of attending synogogue and celebrating Jewish holidays. Apparently at this time in the fourth century CE the boundaries between Christianity and Judiasm were still very blurred.
In any event, supersessionism rely on the NT to justify their racist theology One strand claims Judaism is old and superseded and that the "new covenant with God" or the "new testament" replaces the old See Hebrews 8:8-13. But a second strand describes Jesus as a fulfillment of what was prophesied. It holds the OT is the "first draft" or a prototype and therefore as replaced by the "new". 1 Corinthians 10:1-11. This second strand relies heavily on "typology" wherein Jesus is both the fulfillment of the Old Covenant ("Jesus is new Adam" Romans 5:12-21) and the template through which the Old Testament should be interpreted. This typological approah is especially prominent in the Epistle to the Hebrews which depicts the Lecitical pristhood and the sacrificial practices of Judaism as templates or types which Jesus fulfilles and surpasses.
The condemantion of Jews by Justin and the other "church fathers" and their successors, sometimes called the "Against the Jews" tradition or the "teaching of contempt [of jews]" contined to proliferate as Constantine gained control of the Roman Empire and later Christian rulers began their systematic condemnation of Jews. Such teachings included supersessionism and polemics against Jewish teachings. But to the Jews, Jesus was a Jews and died a Jew. He has claimed to be a messiah just as others had done and his death had not brought forth any messianic age. The Jews were not brought back to the land of Israel. From the estrangement of the Jews and Christians and the increasing Gentile membership of the church, comes much of the NT polemic.
But the tradition did not end there. In the Second Century AD Bishop Melito of Sardis offered an Easter homily titled Peri Pascha which taught that Jews killed Jesus. Bishop Melito cited Matthew 27:25; Acts 3:15; 1 Thess. 2:14-16.This idea of Jews as the killer of Christ became accentuated and coupled with Jews as "Christ-Killers" was the church's proclomation that not only had God replaced Jews with Gentiles (now Christians) as the "elect people" (citing 1 Peter 2:9) but also that Jews were to be punished for their long history of rebellion. John Chyrstotom (archibishop of constantinople) (349-407) applied curses to Jews in his "Against the Jews (I.7.4) and he interprets the destruction of the temple as a sign of the Jewish People's eternal rejections See Jeremiah 7.4. These "church fathers" were the majority and not the minority. Their ideas were made into the political theories that flourished during the middle ages and during the age of the post-modern church.
Sections of "Against the Jews were used as liturgy in the Byzantine Empire's liturgy for Holy Week. "Against the Jews" was translated into Russian in the eleventh centruy was was read at least yearly in medieval Europe, in Byzantium, and in Russia. On Holy Thurday in the Orthodox church, still recitied in some Orthodox Churches to this day is the following quote "the murderers of God, the lawless nation of Jews". To be fair, just as the Christian condemned Jew, so did the rabbits condemn Jesus and the NT. But none of them directly mentioned Christianity. Anti-Christian traditions continued for hundreds of years and included teachings such as "If a man says to you 'I am a God', he is a liar; if he says, ' I am the son of man' in the end people will laugh at him'; if he says 'I will go up to heaven' he says, but shall no perform it" (y. Ta'an. 65b).
The supersessionitst view was the majority and primary view in Christianity until the aftermath of the Shoah (the Holocaust) which featured the murder of millions of Jews. During the time of the third Reich, the theologians of the nazi party utilized the foundations laid by the "church fathers" and supersessionism to preach the following sermon:
"Today is the tenth Sunday after Trinity, a day which has for centuries been dedicated in the Christian world to the memory of the destruction of Jerusalem and the fate of the Jewish people: and the gospel lessons for this Sunday throw a light on the dark and sinister history of this people [the Jews] which can neither live nor die because it is under a curse which forbids it to do… Even Cain receives God's mark, that no one may kill him; and Jesus' command 'Love your enemies!' leaves no room for exception. But we cannot change the fact that until the end of days the Jewish people must go its way under the burden which Jesus' decree has laid upon it. 'Behold your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth till ye shall say Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord.'".
But upon the discovery of the execution of the fruits of heretical supersessionism posited by the "church fathers", a number of Catholic, Christian, and Orthodox Christians came to repudiate the teaching of contempt [supersessionism] for Jews. The World Council of Churchs in 1948 acknolweded the past anti-semitism of the church and acknowledged that the teachings of supersessionism contributed to anti-semitism. Since then, many Protestant churches tackled the "Against the Jews" tradition and repudiated Luther's violent invective against Jews. In 1965, the Vatican document Nostra Aetate states "from the Jews sprang the Apostles". Since then, the Vatican decreed that Jews should not be responsile for the death of Jesus.
RESPONSE --
Yes Dermdoc, I have "googled" nazi theology. It is based upon the theology you espouse.
[url=https://app.rossintelligence.com/similar-language?q=][/url]