On the precipice of the Synod a new Dubia is Issued

3,482 Views | 30 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by whatthehey78
jrico2727
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Notification to Christ's Faithful (can. 212 3)
Regarding Dubia Submitted to
Pope Francis
Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
We, members of the Sacred College of Cardinals, in accord with the duty of all the faithful "to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church" (can. 212 3) and, above all, in accord with the responsibility of Cardinals "to assist the Roman Pontiff … individually … especially in the daily care of the universal Church" (can. 349), in view of various declarations of highly-placed Prelates, pertaining to the celebration of the next Synod of Bishops, that are openly contrary to the constant doctrine and discipline of the Church, and that have generated and continue to generate great confusion and the falling into error among the faithful and other persons of good will, have manifested our deepest concern to the Roman Pontiff. By our letter of July 10, 2023, employing the proven practice of the submission of dubia [questions] to a superior to provide the superior the occasion to make clear, by his responsa [responses], the doctrine and discipline of the Church, we have submitted five dubia to Pope Francis, a copy of which is attached. By his letter of July 11, 2023, Pope Francis responded to our letter.
Having studied his letter which did not follow the practice of responsa ad dubia [responses to questions], we reformulated the dubia to elicit a clear response based on the perennial doctrine and discipline of the Church. By our letter of August 21, 2023, we submitted the reformulated dubia, a copy of which is attached, to the Roman Pontiff. Up to the present, we have not received a response to the reformulated dubia.
Given the gravity of the matter of the dubia, especially in view of the imminent session of the Synod of Bishops, we judge it our duty to inform you, the faithful (can. 212 3), so that you may not be subject to confusion, error, and discouragement but rather may pray for the universal Church and, in particular, the Roman Pontiff, that the Gospel may be taught ever more clearly and followed ever more faithfully.
Yours in Christ,
Walter Cardinal Brandmller
Raymond Leo Cardinal Burke
Juan Cardinal Sandoval ñiguez
Robert Cardinal Sarah
Joseph Cardinal Zen Ze-kiun
Rome, 2 October 2023

D U B I A
(Submitted July 10, 2023)

1 Dubium about the claim that we should reinterpret Divine Revelation according to the cultural and anthropological changes in vogue.
After the statements of some Bishops, which have been neither corrected nor retracted, it is asked whether in the Church Divine Revelation should be reinterpreted according to the cultural changes of our time and according to the new anthropological vision that these changes promote; or whether Divine Revelation is binding forever, immutable and therefore not to be contradicted, according to the dictum of the Second Vatican Council, that to God who reveals is due "the obedience of faith"(Dei Verbum 5); that what is revealed for the salvation of all must remain "in their entirety, throughout the ages" and alive, and be "transmitted to all generations" (7); and that the progress of understanding does not imply any change in the truth of things and words, because faith has been "handed on … once and for all" (8), and the Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but teaches only what has been handed on (10).
2 Dubium about the claim that the widespread practice of the blessing of same-sex unions would be in accord with Revelation and the Magisterium (CCC 2357).
According to Divine Revelation, confirmed in Sacred Scripture, which the Church "at the divine command with the help of the Holy Spirit, … listens to devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully " (Dei Verbum 10): "In the beginning" God created man in his own image, male and female he created them and blessed them, that they might be fruitful (cf. Gen. 1, 27-28), whereby the Apostle Paul teaches that to deny sexual difference is the consequence of the denial of the Creator (Rom 1, 24-32). It is asked: Can the Church derogate from this "principle," considering it, contrary to what Veritatis Splendor 103 taught, as a mere ideal, and accepting as a "possible good" objectively sinful situations, such as same-sex unions, without betraying revealed doctrine?
3 Dubium about the assertion that synodality is a "constitutive element of the Church" (Apostolic Constitution Episcopalis Communio 6), so that the Church would, by its very nature, be synodal.
Given that the Synod of Bishops does not represent the College of Bishops but is merely a consultative organ of the Pope, since the Bishops, as witnesses of the faith, cannot delegate their confession of the truth, it is asked whether synodality can be the supreme regulative criterion of the permanent government of the Church without distorting her constitutive order willed by her Founder, whereby the supreme and full authority of the Church is exercised both by the Pope by virtue of his office and by the College of Bishops together with its head the Roman Pontiff (Lumen Gentium 22).
4 Dubium about pastors' and theologians' support for the theory that "the theology of the Church has changed" and therefore that priestly ordination can be conferred on women.
After the statements of some prelates, which have been neither corrected nor retracted, according to which, with Vatican II, the theology of the Church and the meaning of the Mass has changed, it is asked whether the dictum of the Second Vatican Council is still valid, that "[the common priesthood of the faithful and the ministerial or hierarchical priesthood] differ essentially and not only in degree" (Lumen Gentium 10) and that presbyters by virtue of the "sacred power of Order, that of offering sacrifice and forgiving sins" (Presbyterorum Ordinis 2), act in the name and in the person of Christ the Mediator, through Whom the spiritual sacrifice of the faithful is made perfect. It is furthermore asked whether the teaching of St. John Paul II's Apostolic Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, which teaches as a truth to be definitively held the impossibility of conferring priestly ordination on women, is still valid, so that this teaching is no longer subject to change nor to the free discussion of pastors or theologians.
5 Dubium about the statement "forgiveness is a human right" and the Holy Father's insistence on the duty to absolve everyone and always, so that repentance would not be a necessary condition for sacramental absolution.
It is asked whether the teaching of the Council of Trent, according to which the contrition of the penitent, which consists in detesting the sin committed with the intention of sinning no more (Session XIV, Chapter IV: DH 1676), is necessary for the validity of sacramental confession, is still in force, so that the priest must postpone absolution when it is clear that this condition is not fulfilled.
Vatican City, 10 July 2023
Walter Card. Brandmller
Raymond Leo Card. Burke
Juan Card. Sandoval ñiguez
Robert Card. Sarah
Joseph Card. Zen Ze-Kiun, S.D.B.

***
REFORMULATED DUBIA
(Submitted August 21, 2023)
To His Holiness
FRANCIS
Supreme Pontiff
Most Holy Father,
We are very grateful for the answers which You have kindly wished to offer us. We would first like to clarify that, if we have asked You these questions, it is not out of fear of dialogue with the people of our time, nor of the questions they could ask us about the Gospel of Christ. In fact, we, like Your Holiness, are convinced that the Gospel brings fullness to human life and responds to our every question. The concern that moves us is another: we are concerned to see that there are pastors who doubt the ability of the Gospel to transform the hearts of men and end up proposing to them no longer sound doctrine but "teachings according to their own likings" (cf. 2 Tim 4, 3). We are also concerned that it be understood that God's mercy does not consist in covering our sins, but is much greater, in that it enables us to respond to His love by keeping His commandments, that is, to convert and believe in the Gospel (cf. Mk 1, 15).
With the same sincerity with which You have answered us, we must add that Your answers have not resolved the doubts we had raised, but have, if anything, deepened them. We therefore feel obliged to re-propose, reformulating them, these questions to Your Holiness, who as the successor of Peter is charged by the Lord to confirm Your brethren in the faith. This is all the more urgent in view of the upcoming Synod, which many want to use to deny Catholic doctrine on the very issues which our dubia concern. We therefore re-propose our questions to You, so that they can be answered with a simple "yes" or "no."
[ol]
  • Your Holiness insists that the Church can deepen its understanding of the deposit of faith. This is indeed what Dei Verbum 8 teaches and belongs to Catholic doctrine. Your response, however, does not capture our concern. Many Christians, including pastors and theologians, argue today that the cultural and anthropological changes of our time should push the Church to teach the opposite of what it has always taught. This concerns essential, not secondary, questions for our salvation, like the confession of faith, subjective conditions for access to the sacraments, and observance of the morallaw. So we want to rephrase our dubium: is it possible for the Church today to teach doctrines contrary to those she has previously taught in matters of faith and morals, whether by the Pope ex cathedra, or in the definitions of an Ecumenical Council, or in the ordinary universal magisterium of the Bishops dispersed throughout the world (cf. Lumen Gentium 25)?
  • Your Holiness has insisted on the fact that there can be no confusion between marriage and other types of unions of a sexual nature and that, therefore, any rite or sacramental blessing of same-sex couples, which would give rise to such confusion, should be avoided. Our concern, however, is a different one: we are concerned that the blessing of same-sex couples might create confusion in any case, not only in that it might make them seem analogous to marriage, but also in that homosexual acts would be presented practically as a good, or at least as the possible good that God asks of people in their journey toward Him. So let us rephrase our dubium: Is it possible that in some circumstances a pastor could bless unions between homosexual persons, thus suggesting that homosexual behavior as such would not be contrary to God's law and the person's journey toward God? Linked to this dubium is the need to raise another: does the teaching upheld by the universal ordinary magisterium, that every sexual act outside of marriage, and in particular homosexual acts, constitutes an objectively grave sin against God's law, regardless of the circumstances in which it takes place and the intention with which it is carried out, continue to be valid?
  • You have insisted that there is a synodal dimension to the Church, in that all, including the lay faithful, are called to participate and make their voices heard. Our difficulty, however, is another: today the future Synod on "synodality" is being presented as if, in communion with the Pope, it represents the Supreme Authority of the Church. However, the Synod of Bishops is a consultative body of the Pope; it does not represent the College of Bishops and cannot settle the issues dealt with in it nor issue decrees on them, unless, in certain cases, the Roman Pontiff, whose duty it is to ratify the decisions of the Synod, has expressly granted it deliberative power (cf. can. 343 C.I.C.). This is a decisive point inasmuchas not involving the College of Bishops in matters such as those that the next Synod intends to raise, which touch on the very constitution of the Church, would go precisely against the root of that synodality, which it claims to want to promote. Let us therefore rephrase our dubium: will the Synod of Bishops to be held in Rome, and which includes only a chosen representation of pastors and faithful, exercise, in the doctrinal or pastoral matters on which it will be called to express itself, the Supreme Authority of the Church, which belongs exclusively to the Roman Pontiff and, una cum capite suo, to the College of Bishops (cf. can. 336 C.I.C.)?
  • In Your reply Your Holiness made it clear that the decision of St. John Paul II in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is to be held definitively, and rightly added that it is necessary to understand the priesthood, not in terms of power, but in terms of service, in order to understand correctly our Lord's decision to reserve Holy Orders to men only. On the other hand, in the last point of Your response You added that the question can still be further explored. We are concerned that some may interpret this statement to mean that the matter has not yet been decided in a definitive manner. In fact, St. John Paul II affirms in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis that this doctrine has been taught infallibly by the ordinary and universal magisterium, and therefore that it belongs to the deposit of faith. This was the response of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to a dubium raised about the apostolic letter, and this response was approved by John Paul II himself. We therefore must reformulate our dubium: could the Church in the future have the faculty to confer priestly ordination on women, thus contradicting that the exclusive reservation of this sacrament to baptized males belongs to the very substance of the Sacrament of Orders, which the Church cannot change?
  • Finally, Your Holiness confirmed the teaching of the Council of Trent according to which the validity of sacramental absolution requires the sinner's repentance, which includes the resolve not to sin again. And You invited us not to doubt God's infinite mercy. We would like to reiterate that our question does not arise from doubting the greatness of God's mercy, but, on the contrary, it arises from our awareness that this mercy is so great that we are able to convert to Him, to confess our guilt, and to live as He has taught us. In turn, some might interpret Your answer as meaning that merely approaching confession is a sufficient condition for receiving absolution, inasmuch as it could implicitly include confession of sins and repentance. We would therefore like to rephrase our dubium: Can a penitent who, while admitting a sin, refuses to make, in any way, the intention not to commit it again, validly receive sacramental absolution?
  • [/ol]Vatican City, August 21, 2023
    Walter Card. Brandmller
    Raymond Leo Card. Burke
    Juan Card. Sandoval ñiguez
    Robert Card. Sarah
    Joseph Card. Zen Ze-kiun
    cc: His Eminence Rev. Luis Francisco Card. LADARIA FERRER, S.I
    Bob Lee
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    AG
    I'll be shocked if they get anything for their trouble except more obfuscation and gamesmanship.
    Athanasius
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    AG
    More deets:
    https://www.ncregister.com/news/cardinals-send-dubia-to-pope-ahead-of-synod-on-synodality

    Quote:

    The same group of senior prelates say they submitted a previous version of the dubia on these topics on July 10 and received a reply from Pope Francis the following day.

    But they said that the pope responded in full answers rather than in the customary form of "yes" and "no" replies, which made it necessary to submit a revised request for clarification.

    Pope Francis' responses "have not resolved the doubts we had raised, but have, if anything, deepened them," they said in a statement to the National Catholic Register, CNA's partner news outlet. They therefore sent the reformulated dubia on Aug. 21, rephrasing them partly so they would elicit "yes" or "no" replies.
    I support the Pope. However, his tendency toward ambiguity is irritating at best and mis-leading people to sin at worst.

    Dialog is wonderful. We love Jesus. We like to talk about Jesus. But, eventually, if someone says something misleading about Jesus, we correct them out of respect for Jesus and love for them.

    PabloSerna
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    AG
    Bob Lee said:

    I'll be shocked if they get anything for their trouble except more obfuscation and gamesmanship.

    There is no "gamesmanship" and the purpose of these questions are to seek clarification. If you are really concerned, please join the rest of us in prayer.
    Bob Lee
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    AG
    PabloSerna said:

    Bob Lee said:

    I'll be shocked if they get anything for their trouble except more obfuscation and gamesmanship.

    There is no "gamesmanship" and the purpose of these questions are to seek clarification. If you are really concerned, please join the rest of us in prayer.

    Why do you think he won't clearly answer their questions?
    PabloSerna
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    AG
    I've been following along for a couple of years. He is very clear. I actually think the Bishops writing the dubia (twice) are the ones seeking to trap the Pope, not unlike the Pharisees in the time of Jesus.
    PabloSerna
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    AG
    " if someone says something misleading about Jesus, we correct them out of respect for Jesus and love for them."

    +++

    Have you ever considered that this is exactly what the Pope is doing for his brethren Bishops?
    Bob Lee
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    AG
    PabloSerna said:

    I've been following along for a couple of years. He is very clear. I actually think the Bishops writing the dubia (twice) are the ones seeking to trap the Pope, not unlike the Pharisees in the time of Jesus.


    Trap him? At best he's allowing himself to be used by the media and others for nefarious purposes, which isn't great. Can you answer the questions in the OP?
    PabloSerna
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    AG
    Bob Lee said:

    PabloSerna said:

    I've been following along for a couple of years. He is very clear. I actually think the Bishops writing the dubia (twice) are the ones seeking to trap the Pope, not unlike the Pharisees in the time of Jesus.


    Trap him? At best he's allowing himself to be used by the media and others for nefarious purposes, which isn't great. Can you answer the questions in the OP?
    From what I just read, this was released today to the public, the Pope did answer their questions (7/11/23) in greater detail than simply "yes" or "no" - which they rejected and have reformulated (8/23) their revised dubia to be a "yes" or "no" format. The CDF has responded by saying the Pope has already answered, move along.

    I guess we shall see what will come of this back and forth.
    hockeyag
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    AG
    Francis created the problem himself by trying to obfuscate 2000 years of church teaching. Phrases like:
    " that from an objective point of view are not morally acceptable" (pertaining to pastoral charity and blessings) seem to contradict Roman Catholic theology. He will split the church.
    Bob Lee
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    AG
    PabloSerna said:

    Bob Lee said:

    PabloSerna said:

    I've been following along for a couple of years. He is very clear. I actually think the Bishops writing the dubia (twice) are the ones seeking to trap the Pope, not unlike the Pharisees in the time of Jesus.


    Trap him? At best he's allowing himself to be used by the media and others for nefarious purposes, which isn't great. Can you answer the questions in the OP?
    From what I just read, this was released today to the public, the Pope did answer their questions (7/11/23) in greater detail than simply "yes" or "no" - which they rejected and have reformulated (8/23) their revised dubia to be a "yes" or "no" format. The CDF has responded by saying the Pope has already answered, move along.

    I guess we shall see what will come of this back and forth.


    Do you know the answers to those questions?
    PabloSerna
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    AG
    Google is your friend... Here are the Pope's responses to each of the questions:

    LINK
    Bob Lee
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    AG
    PabloSerna said:

    Google is your friend... Here are the Pope's responses to each of the questions:

    LINK


    Does nothing to quell the confusion, which is why they inquired again and rephrased their questions. But what I was asking is can you personally answer the questions "yes" or "no" that the Cardinals asked in the OP?
    PabloSerna
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    AG
    Did you read them? Why don't you do that and I will as well. I read one, the big one, and it is clear to me.
    Bob Lee
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    AG
    PabloSerna said:

    Did you read them? Why don't you do that and I will as well. I read one, the big one, and it is clear to me.


    Yeah, I read it. It's the kind of thing the people who sew confusion, who are the impetus for the inquiry in the first place, will use to continue to sew confusion.
    PabloSerna
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    AG
    2. Dubium about the claim that the widespread practice of the blessing of same-sex unions would be in accord with revelation and the magisterium (Catechism of the Catholic Church, No. 2357).


    According to divine revelation, confirmed in sacred Scripture, which the Church "with a divine commission and with the help of the Holy Spirit, … listening to it devoutly, guarding it scrupulously and explaining it faithfully" (Dei Verbum, 10): "In the beginning" God created man in his own image, male and female he created them and blessed them, that they might be fruitful (cf. Gen. 1:27-28), whereby the apostle Paul teaches that to deny sexual difference is the consequence of the denial of the Creator (Rom 1:24-32). It is asked: Can the Church derogate from this "principle," objectively sinful such as same-sex unions, without betraying revealed doctrine?

    Pope Francis' response:
    a) The Church has a very clear conception of marriage: an exclusive, stable, and indissoluble union between a man and a woman, naturally open to the begetting of children. It calls this union "marriage." Other forms of union only realize it "in a partial and analogous way" (Amoris Laetitia, 292), and so they cannot be strictly called "marriage."

    b) It is not a mere question of names, but the reality that we call marriage has a unique essential constitution that demands an exclusive name, not applicable to other realities. It is undoubtedly much more than a mere "ideal."

    c) For this reason the Church avoids any kind of rite or sacramental that could contradict this conviction and give the impression that something that is not marriage is recognized as marriage.

    d) In dealing with people, however, we must not lose the pastoral charity that must permeate all our decisions and attitudes. The defense of objective truth is not the only expression of this charity, which is also made up of kindness, patience, understanding, tenderness, and encouragement. Therefore, we cannot become judges who only deny, reject, exclude.

    e) For this reason, pastoral prudence must adequately discern whether there are forms of blessing, requested by one or more persons, that do not transmit a mistaken conception of marriage. For when a blessing is requested, one is expressing a request for help from God, a plea for a better life, a trust in a Father who can help us to live better.

    f) On the other hand, although there are situations that from an objective point of view are not morally acceptable, pastoral charity itself demands that we do not simply treat as "sinners" other people whose guilt or responsibility may be due to their own fault or responsibility attenuated by various factors that influence subjective imputability (cf. St. John Paul II, Reconciliatio et Paenitentia, 17).

    g) Decisions which, in certain circumstances, can form part of pastoral prudence, should not necessarily become a norm. That is to say, it is not appropriate for a diocese, an episcopal conference or any other ecclesial structure to constantly and officially authorize procedures or rites for all kinds of matters, since everything "what is part of a practical discernment in particular circumstances cannot be elevated to the level of a rule," because this "would lead to an intolerable casuistry" (Amoris Laetitia, 304). Canon law should not and cannot cover everything, nor should the episcopal conferences claim to do so with their various documents and protocols, because the life of the Church runs through many channels in addition to the normative ones.

    +++

    In the first place, the Pope recognizes that they are connecting marriage and same sex unions. A, B, and C are the clarifications to this, which I am happy to read that I too have come to this very conclusion. It is NOT marriage they are seeking.

    In "d" he sets up the appropriate pastoral approach. Don't be a gate keeper (denying, rejecting, excluding) - kindness, patience, encouragement, etc. are they way for "pastoral charity."

    In "e" he says something I had not considered, but really hit home that ROM 1:24-32, is not applicable because St. Paul writes about those people who are what he calls, "God haters." The Pope points out that when a blessing is requested, it seeks help from God and trust in the Father.

    In "f" he warns that are situations that have to be considered, so it is not a blanket answer. This may be where they are seeking a simple answer and he is citing an encyclical by the former Pope, St. John Paul II, in which he breaks down mortal vs. venial sins.

    In "g" he concludes that there is NO hard and fast rule that covers every situation. I think he is absolutely right and not trying to compare to marriage, but look at the divorce rate. It is serious and he is giving the guidance, just not what they were hoping for, I suspect.

    HTH

    Now your take....

    ETA: About "g" - this is written as much in response to the dubia as to the German Church which seems to be seeking a universal rule, not unlike holy marriage. The Pope is good!






    Bob Lee
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    AG
    PabloSerna said:

    2. Dubium about the claim that the widespread practice of the blessing of same-sex unions would be in accord with revelation and the magisterium (Catechism of the Catholic Church, No. 2357).


    According to divine revelation, confirmed in sacred Scripture, which the Church "with a divine commission and with the help of the Holy Spirit, … listening to it devoutly, guarding it scrupulously and explaining it faithfully" (Dei Verbum, 10): "In the beginning" God created man in his own image, male and female he created them and blessed them, that they might be fruitful (cf. Gen. 1:27-28), whereby the apostle Paul teaches that to deny sexual difference is the consequence of the denial of the Creator (Rom 1:24-32). It is asked: Can the Church derogate from this "principle," objectively sinful such as same-sex unions, without betraying revealed doctrine?

    Pope Francis' response:
    a) The Church has a very clear conception of marriage: an exclusive, stable, and indissoluble union between a man and a woman, naturally open to the begetting of children. It calls this union "marriage." Other forms of union only realize it "in a partial and analogous way" (Amoris Laetitia, 292), and so they cannot be strictly called "marriage."

    This question is specifically ABOUT same-sex unions. He references the same phraseology in Amoris Laetitia: " Some forms of union radically contradict this ideal, while others realize it in at least a partial and analogous way. The Synod Fathers stated that the Church does not disregard the constructive elements in those situations which do not yet or no longer correspond to her teaching on marriage.314"

    Which references Relatio Finalis 2015, which does not mention same sex marriage unions at all. This whole section is essentially about heterosexual couplings shacking up. This is a masterclass in obfuscation. This, where he is saying situations which do not yet or no longer correspond to the Church's teaching on marriage in answer to a question about same sex-unions, while referencing a paragraph in a document which is not talking about same sex unions is particularly egregious.

    70. Pastoral ministry on behalf of the family clearly proposes the Gospel message and gathers the positive elements present in those situations, which do not yet or no longer correspond to this message. In many countries, a growing number of couples live together without benefit of either a canonical or civil marriage. In some countries, a traditional wedding is arranged between families and is often celebrated in different stages. In still others, an increasing number of those who have lived together for a long period of time ask for the celebration of marriage in Church. Oftentimes, the choice of simply living together results from not only a general aversion towards institutions and making firm commitments but also an expectation of a sense of security in life (awaiting a job and a steady salary). And finally, in other countries, de facto unions are becoming more numerous, because of not only the rejection of the values of family and marriage but also, for some, marriage is seen as a luxury due to their state in society. Consequently, in the latter case, the lack of material resources forces couples to live in de facto unions. All these situations must be addressed in a constructive manner, attempting to turn them into opportunities leading to conversion and the fullness of marriage and the family in the light of the Gospel.

    Further down in this same document:

    "there are absolutely no grounds for considering homosexual unions to be in any way similar or even remotely analogous to God's plan for marriage and family" (ibid). In every way, the Synod maintains as completely unacceptable that local Churches be subjected to pressure in this matter and that international bodies link financial aid to poor countries to the introduction of laws to establish "marriage" between people of the same sex."


    b) It is not a mere question of names, but the reality that we call marriage has a unique essential constitution that demands an exclusive name, not applicable to other realities. It is undoubtedly much more than a mere "ideal."

    c) For this reason the Church avoids any kind of rite or sacramental that could contradict this conviction and give the impression that something that is not marriage is recognized as marriage.

    d) In dealing with people, however, we must not lose the pastoral charity that must permeate all our decisions and attitudes. The defense of objective truth is not the only expression of this charity, which is also made up of kindness, patience, understanding, tenderness, and encouragement. Therefore, we cannot become judges who only deny, reject, exclude.

    e) For this reason, pastoral prudence must adequately discern whether there are forms of blessing, requested by one or more persons, that do not transmit a mistaken conception of marriage. For when a blessing is requested, one is expressing a request for help from God, a plea for a better life, a trust in a Father who can help us to live better.

    "it is not licit to impart a blessing on relationships, or partnerships, even stable, that involve sexual activity outside of marriage (i.e., outside the indissoluble union of a man and a woman open in itself to the transmission of life), as is the case of the unions between persons of the same sex[6]"

    -Responsum of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to a dubium
    regarding the blessing of the unions of persons of the same sex

    Let's cut the crap here, right? Anyone can ask for and receive a blessing. That isn't what we're talking about. That isn't what they're asking about.


    f) On the other hand, although there are situations that from an objective point of view are not morally acceptable, pastoral charity itself demands that we do not simply treat as "sinners" other people whose guilt or responsibility may be due to their own fault or responsibility attenuated by various factors that influence subjective imputability (cf. St. John Paul II, Reconciliatio et Paenitentia, 17).

    This is actually crazy. If I didn't know better, it would seem like he is purposefully trying to foment confusion in order to diminish people's culpability or something. Isn't the idea here to state clearly God's revelation?

    g) Decisions which, in certain circumstances, can form part of pastoral prudence, should not necessarily become a norm. That is to say, it is not appropriate for a diocese, an episcopal conference or any other ecclesial structure to constantly and officially authorize procedures or rites for all kinds of matters, since everything "what is part of a practical discernment in particular circumstances cannot be elevated to the level of a rule," because this "would lead to an intolerable casuistry" (Amoris Laetitia, 304). Canon law should not and cannot cover everything, nor should the episcopal conferences claim to do so with their various documents and protocols, because the life of the Church runs through many channels in addition to the normative ones.

    +++

    In the first place, the Pope recognizes that they are connecting marriage and same sex unions. A, B, and C are the clarifications to this, which I am happy to read that I too have come to this very conclusion. It is NOT marriage they are seeking.

    In "d" he sets up the appropriate pastoral approach. Don't be a gate keeper (denying, rejecting, excluding) - kindness, patience, encouragement, etc. are they way for "pastoral charity."

    In "e" he says something I had not considered, but really hit home that ROM 1:24-32, is not applicable because St. Paul writes about those people who are what he calls, "God haters." The Pope points out that when a blessing is requested, it seeks help from God and trust in the Father.

    In "f" he warns that are situations that have to be considered, so it is not a blanket answer. This may be where they are seeking a simple answer and he is citing an encyclical by the former Pope, St. John Paul II, in which he breaks down mortal vs. venial sins.

    In "g" he concludes that there is NO hard and fast rule that covers every situation. I think he is absolutely right and not trying to compare to marriage, but look at the divorce rate. It is serious and he is giving the guidance, just not what they were hoping for, I suspect.

    HTH

    Now your take....

    ETA: About "g" - this is written as much in response to the dubia as to the German Church which seems to be seeking a universal rule, not unlike holy marriage. The Pope is good!







    edited for clarity/grammar
    PabloSerna
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    AG
    Bob - It was clear to me and the Pope that they are talking about the revealed doctrine of marriage between a man and woman, "blessed" by God, that they may be fruitful and multiply. It is in this context that they are saying that any "blessing" of a same sex union is a betrayal to this revelation.

    The Pope carefully diffuses that bomb in A, B, and C.
    Bob Lee
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    AG
    PabloSerna said:

    Bob - It was clear to me and the Pope that they are talking about the revealed doctrine of marriage between a man and woman, "blessed" by God, that they may be fruitful and multiply. It is in this context that they are saying that any "blessing" of a same sex union is a betrayal to this revelation.

    The Pope carefully diffuses that bomb in A, B, and C.
    "Can the Church derogate from this "principle," objectively sinful such as same-sex unions, without betraying revealed doctrine?"

    This is the question. What is the second half in part (a) of Pope Francis' answer to this question supposed to mean? What's he saying?
    PabloSerna
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    AG
    Here is how I would break it down:

    a) The Church has a very clear conception of marriage: an exclusive, stable, and indissoluble union between a man and a woman, naturally open to the begetting of children. It calls this union "marriage."

    >> He is defining the word "marriage" putting quotation marks around it for emphasis.

    Other forms of union only realize it "in a partial and analogous way" (Amoris Laetitia, 292), and so they cannot be strictly called "marriage."


    >> I had to look it up also, but I suspected he was defining the word "union." It would seem that he is clarifying marital union compared to other forms such as "living together" acknowledging that they are not the same as marriage. Why would he do this? I suspect to correct their reference to story of creation (GEN 1:27-28) and the role marriage derives from this act.
    Bob Lee
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    AG
    PabloSerna said:

    Here is how I would break it down:

    a) The Church has a very clear conception of marriage: an exclusive, stable, and indissoluble union between a man and a woman, naturally open to the begetting of children. It calls this union "marriage."

    >> He is defining the word "marriage" putting quotation marks around it for emphasis.

    Other forms of union only realize it "in a partial and analogous way" (Amoris Laetitia, 292), and so they cannot be strictly called "marriage."


    >> I had to look it up also, but I suspected he was defining the word "union." It would seem that he is clarifying marital union compared to other forms such as "living together" acknowledging that they are not the same as marriage. Why would he do this? I suspect to correct their reference to story of creation (GEN 1:27-28) and the role marriage derives from this act.



    It makes no sense to point to that except to muddle things.

    Again, From Relatio Finalis 2015, which is that same document Amoris Laetitia refers us to (different paragraph).

    "there are absolutely no grounds for considering homosexual unions to be in any way similar or even remotely ANALOGOUS to God's plan for marriage and family"

    Again, the question is about same sex unions.

    Now read the revised question. Does it make sense to you why they would submit a dubia 2.0? He didn't answer the question, and actually is creating more confusion. This is his m.o. par for the course.
    FTACo88-FDT24dad
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    AG
    The rephrased dubium on blessing same sex unions:

    Is it possible that in some circumstances a pastor could bless unions between homosexual persons, thus suggesting that homosexual behavior as such would not be contrary to God's law and the person's journey toward God? Linked to this dubium is the need to raise another: does the teaching upheld by the universal ordinary magisterium, that every sexual act outside of marriage, and in particular homosexual acts, constitutes an objectively grave sin against God's law, regardless of the circumstances in which it takes place and the intention with which it is carried out, continue to be valid?

    The ONLY way I can see to make sense of the Pope's answer that gave rise to this restated question is that he is implying that it's conceivable that a same sex union could be "celibate" so that it's not in violation of church teaching and is therefore susceptible of a blessing. I suppose that is possible and frankly I agree that if two people of the same sex are in a union but remain celibate then they are not committing grave sexual sin and I can't think of a reason not to bless their union assuming that is the case, especially if it is intended to strengthen them in their celibate lifestyle. If this is the case, why didn't he just say that? It's very easy to give a clear answer here that says this without creating any confusion. Why does he always choose the path of ambiguity and muddiness?

    How many of us actually believe that a same sex union or any other union will be sexless?
    Bob Lee
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    AG
    FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

    The rephrased dubium on blessing same sex unions:

    Is it possible that in some circumstances a pastor could bless unions between homosexual persons, thus suggesting that homosexual behavior as such would not be contrary to God's law and the person's journey toward God? Linked to this dubium is the need to raise another: does the teaching upheld by the universal ordinary magisterium, that every sexual act outside of marriage, and in particular homosexual acts, constitutes an objectively grave sin against God's law, regardless of the circumstances in which it takes place and the intention with which it is carried out, continue to be valid?

    The ONLY way I can see to make sense of the Pope's answer that gave rise to this restated question is that he is implying that it's conceivable that a same sex union could be "celibate" so that it's not in violation of church teaching and is therefore susceptible of a blessing. I suppose that is possible and frankly I agree that if two people of the same sex are in a union but remain celibate then they are not committing grave sexual sin and I can't think of a reason not to bless their union assuming that is the case, especially if it is intended to strengthen them in their celibate lifestyle. If this is the case, why didn't he just say that? It's very easy to give a clear answer here that says this without creating any confusion. Why does he always choose the path of ambiguity and muddiness?

    How many of us actually believe that a same sex union or any other union will be sexless?


    It still doesn't make sense. The question is about objectively sinful situations. The media have predictably glommed onto the part of his answer about pastoral discernment. He conveniently ignores the issue, which is that there are people asking for blessings in bad faith. His answer only pertains to people asking in good faith, and that is not what the Cardinals are concerned about.

    The answer is essentially that you should discern if you can bless this arrangement in a way that does not bless the arrangement. As long as you can square that circle, and also not confuse the square for a circle then it's licit.

    We see first hand on this board the ease with which people can contort the truth. Pope Francis just makes it sooo easy for them.
    Bob Lee
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    AG
    Also Archbishop Fernandez's contempt toward the Cardinals is odd and concerning. The dichotomy between the Vatican's attitudes toward people asking for a blessing for their sinful unions in bad faith (or feigned ignorance that those people even exist), and their attitude toward these senior prelates is striking.
    PabloSerna
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    AG
    I find it interesting that none of the Cardinals that formulated the dubia were invited. All but one over the age of 80 and while it list several, only two actually signed the dubia. On top of that, when they published the dubia, they neglected to publish the Pope's response leaving the Vatican to issue the Pope's words. Yes, interesting indeed.
    Bob Lee
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    AG
    PabloSerna said:

    I find it interesting that none of the Cardinals that formulated the dubia were invited. All but one over the age of 80 and while it list several, only two actually signed the dubia. On top of that, when they published the dubia, they neglected to publish the Pope's response leaving the Vatican to issue the Pope's words. Yes, interesting indeed.


    The Pope has the option of addressing his Responsum to just the Cardinals or to everyone, and he chose the former. That's why the Cardinals didn't leak his answers. It's not that interesting.
    jrico2727
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    AG
    PabloSerna said:

    I find it interesting that none of the Cardinals that formulated the dubia were invited.


    Yes, quite interesting indeed that the "listening church" didn't reach to the periphery to hear all voices.
    FTACo88-FDT24dad
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    AG
    jrico2727 said:

    PabloSerna said:

    I find it interesting that none of the Cardinals that formulated the dubia were invited.


    Yes, quite interesting indeed that the "listening church" didn't reach to the periphery to hear all voices.
    Seems almost … un-inclusive! {clutching pearls in shock and amazement}
    PabloSerna
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    AG
    A lot of people were not invited. They are still Cardinals. They are playing a card, it's clear to even an untrained eye that they wanted to stir the pot. They succeeded.
    ChiefHaus
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    They said the same thing about Saint Athanasius.
    whatthehey78
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    AG
    As for me...give me "Yes" or "No...all else is equivocation without clarification. Perhaps his intention.
    Refresh
    Page 1 of 1
     
    ×
    subscribe Verify your student status
    See Subscription Benefits
    Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.