Jabin said:

---

Quote:

---

How can you truly love your neighbors if they are not warned about hell?

---

I agree; that's my point. Although I am a bit uncomfortable with hell being used as a motivation tool. Negative reinforcement doesn't work well with me so I don't like using it with others. God's unbelievable power, holiness, grace, and mercy are what drive me to my knees.

---

Yes, this is a common saying. However, what are God's grace and mercy for? Salvation. What do we need saving from? God's wrath.

This is the problem with our modern day society, at least in the western world. Hell, wrath and damnation are too sensitive for us despite they are as much a part of the story as love, mercy and grace. Jesus talked about hell more than anyone else in the new testament, combined. He did not shy away from preaching hell because He was the perfect example of love.

Jabin said:

---

I don't shy away from hell at all. However, that doesn't motivate me nearly as much as the hope of sharing in God's perfection and becoming a joint heir with Christ.

BTW, the Bible actually says extraordinarily little of hell. Most of the current doctrines of hell are almost entirely man-made. There are zero references to hell in the OT. The reason I don't discount it entirely is that almost all of the references to it are from Christ, as you noted, so it must be taken seriously. However, Christ did not use the word hell, but rather Gahenna which is the name of a valley that runs out of Jerusalem. We are not really sure what Gahenna meant at that time. The oft-repeated explanation that it was a valley full of burning trash was an invention of a rabbi from the Middle Ages with no support for his invention.

Christ and John did describe Gahenna as a place of fire and agony, so there is that, which is indisputable. But I am reluctant to develop a huge theology of hell based on the sparse information provided to us in the Bible.

---

Of course, we should speak of God's rich mercy and the atoning sacrifice of Christ that allows to have peace before God as we are given justification.
My point is though, the modern church doesn't teach why there needs to be salvation and that is equally apart of the story.

Also, yes it makes sense Christ spoke more of hell than anyone else because he's the only one who knows anything about it. He was explicit about it.

Jabin said:

---

I don't shy away from hell at all. However, that doesn't motivate me nearly as much as the hope of sharing in God's perfection and becoming a joint heir with Christ.

BTW, the Bible actually says extraordinarily little of hell. Most of the current doctrines of hell are almost entirely man-made. There are zero references to hell in the OT. The reason I don't discount it entirely is that almost all of the references to it are from Christ, as you noted, so it must be taken seriously. However, Christ did not use the word hell, but rather Gahenna which is the name of a valley that runs out of Jerusalem. We are not really sure what Gahenna meant at that time. The oft-repeated explanation that it was a valley full of burning trash was an invention of a rabbi from the Middle Ages with no support for his invention.

Christ and John did describe Gahenna as a place of fire and agony, so there is that, which is indisputable. But I am reluctant to develop a huge theology of hell based on the sparse information provided to us in the Bible.

---

Agree.

I believe people choose Hell. Scripture is clear that God wants everyone to be saved. Christ talked much more about how we are to love God and love our neighbors.

Treat everybody like we want to be treated. Take care of the orphans and widows. Help the poor and marginalized.

Bob_Ag said:

---

Jabin said:

---

Like you two guys' discussion. Very civil.

I want to reemphasize that I'm not arguing against the Christian duty to evangelize. But I believe it flows from the 2nd Commandment, not any so-called "Great Commission". And the point is important to me because many Christians in full-time evangelization roles often tend to view other Christians as second-class because they're not following the "Great Commission" full time. Years ago, I dated a girl who was on staff of Cru (then Campus Crusade) and the biggest obstacle between us was that I wasn't obeying the Great Commission by being in full-time ministry.

Ironically, after we broke up, she ended up leaving Cru and marrying a rich oilman. Oh well.

---

Sure, we don't need to be in full time ministry to evangelize, but I think we are mistaken, severely, if we believe we are not expected to share the way to salvation. How can you truly love your neighbors if they are not warned about hell? We sow the seeds, God provides the growth.

---

I think how you go about your life can also be "evangelizing" to others…I know there are several people I looked up to growing up that influenced me. I saw how they carried themselves, how they treated others, how they spoke…all that got my attention and spurred me to want to be "better" and seek the source of their guidance…

Jabin said:

---

I don't shy away from hell at all. However, that doesn't motivate me nearly as much as the hope of sharing in God's perfection and becoming a joint heir with Christ.

BTW, the Bible actually says extraordinarily little of hell. Most of the current doctrines of hell are almost entirely man-made. There are zero references to hell in the OT. The reason I don't discount it entirely is that almost all of the references to it are from Christ, as you noted, so it must be taken seriously. However, Christ did not use the word hell, but rather Gahenna which is the name of a valley that runs out of Jerusalem. We are not really sure what Gahenna meant at that time. The oft-repeated explanation that it was a valley full of burning trash was an invention of a rabbi from the Middle Ages with no support for his invention.

Christ and John did describe Gahenna as a place of fire and agony, so there is that, which is indisputable. But I am reluctant to develop a huge theology of hell based on the sparse information provided to us in the Bible.

---

Agree. Obviously there is punishment of some sort and a separation from God.

I think whether the punishment is retributive or redemptive is very unclear.

I do not believe God sends anyone to hell.

And if avoiding hell was the main focus of the Gospel, you would think that Paul would have mentioned hell. Seems like that would have been pretty important.

The sermon on Mars Hill is nothing like the "turn or burn" evangelism often seen in the Western Church today.

And Jesus in Luke 4:18 Jesus says why He came

The spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom to the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free.

Nothing about keeping anyone from eternal torment which you would think would be pretty important.

And as jabin pointed out, most of the concept of ECT hell is man made by people like Dante and Milton.

Quote:

---

Revelation 14:10
10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

---

Hell is part of God's wrath. It is God's punishment for unbelieving, unrepentant sinners who have not surrendered to the Lordship of Christ. Jesus Christ talked about hell more than anyone else because as I said, he created hell and is the only one who knows what it is, explicitly.

However, Paul did in fact talk about hell all the time.

Quote:

---

Romans 2:5
But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.

Romans 5:9
Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

Romans 12:19
Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."

Ephesians 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Col 3:6
On account of these the wrath of God is coming.

1Thess 1:10
and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

---

I know we live in a time where its more popular to think of Christ Jesus as our buddy and God is Love, but we neglect having the proper fear of the Lord. This is a product of interjecting our cultural influence into the Gospel. I'm not saying to evangelize we need to go out to city streets and yell hell, brimstone and fire. What I am saying is that as believers, having the proper respect of God's judgment to come should motivate us to share God's redemptive plan.

Never heard a theologian (except maybe Jonathan Edwards) equate wrath with hell. This sounds very much like "Sinners in the hands of an Angry God".

And I even googled it and could find none. I look at God's wrath as being like when my dad punished me for my own good.
But my dad always loved me and I think God does also.
I am not a Calvinist. We have different theologies. Which is fine.

The Bible defines God as love. Never defines him as wrath. There are numerous verses about His wrath but it seems as if He always ends up still being a good, loving God.

It all comes down to how you define the character of God.

Do you believe God sends people to Hell for eternal torment?

And in double predestination where God condemns people to hell and gives them no chance?

That is why I am not a Calvinist.

And I know you are thinking I am creating my own God to meet my whims. I think Calvinists may be doing the same thing.

Shalom.

dermdoc said:

---

Never heard a theologian (except maybe Jonathan Edwards) equate wrath with hell. This sounds very much like "Sinners in the hands of an Angry God".

And I even googled it and could find none. I look at God's wrath as being like when my dad punished me for my own good.
But my dad always loved me and I think God does also.
I am not a Calvinist. We have different theologies. Which is fine.

The Bible defines God as love. Never defines him as wrath. There are numerous verses about His wrath but it seems as if He always ends up still being a good, loving God.

It all comes down to how you define the character of God.

Do you believe God sends people to Hell for eternal torment?

And in double predestination where God condemns people to hell and gives them no chance?

That is why I am not a Calvinist.

And I know you are thinking I am creating my own God to meet my whims. I think Calvinists may be doing the same thing.

Shalom.

---

Well, I'm not really sure how else we could think of hell from a biblical standpoint. What are we being saved from as sinners? God's wrath. What happens if we are not saved? God's wrath is poured out. If we are sent to hell as part of judgment, then that can be nothing other than God's wrath.

Whether we are talking about hell, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the exile of the Jews to Babylon, God's wrath is always judgment against sin. The character of God is that he hates sin and because he is just, he must punish sin unless there is propitiation through Christ. Now God is also love, because as part of His redemptive plan he ordained the sacrifice of His Son so we can be justified before him by believing, while we were still sinners.

I do think the Bible is very clear in Jesus' own words that the punishment is everlasting Matthew 25:41,46.

Perhaps its not prudent to take a sharp turn into the Doctrines of Grace and election, although I'm happy to discuss these things with anyone. However, the main point I'm making in this thread is that if Christ thought it wise to warn us of the need of salvation from hell, then we ought to do the same. He did not shy away from it by any respect. The problem that arises when people don't have the proper understanding of what people are being saved from we get all kinds of heretical teachings that we see today and through the history of the church. At the very least, it should motivate us to share Christ with others.

Peace to you as well my friend.

Bob_Ag said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Never heard a theologian (except maybe Jonathan Edwards) equate wrath with hell. This sounds very much like "Sinners in the hands of an Angry God".

And I even googled it and could find none. I look at God's wrath as being like when my dad punished me for my own good.
But my dad always loved me and I think God does also.
I am not a Calvinist. We have different theologies. Which is fine.

The Bible defines God as love. Never defines him as wrath. There are numerous verses about His wrath but it seems as if He always ends up still being a good, loving God.

It all comes down to how you define the character of God.

Do you believe God sends people to Hell for eternal torment?

And in double predestination where God condemns people to hell and gives them no chance?

That is why I am not a Calvinist.

And I know you are thinking I am creating my own God to meet my whims. I think Calvinists may be doing the same thing.

Shalom.

---

Well, I'm not really sure how else we could think of hell from a biblical standpoint. What are we being saved from as sinners? God's wrath. What happens if we are not saved? God's wrath is poured out. If we are sent to hell as part of judgment, then that can be nothing other than God's wrath.

Whether we are talking about hell, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the exile of the Jews to Babylon, God's wrath is always judgment against sin. The character of God is that he hates sin and because he is just, he must punish sin unless there is propitiation through Christ. Now God is also love, because as part of His redemptive plan he ordained the sacrifice of His Son so we can be justified before him by believing, while we were still sinners.

I do think the Bible is very clear in Jesus' own words that the punishment is everlasting Matthew 25:41,46.

Perhaps its not prudent to take a sharp turn into the Doctrines of Grace and election, although I'm happy to discuss these things with anyone. However, the main point I'm making in this thread is that if Christ thought it wise to warn us of the need of salvation from hell, then we ought to do the same. He did not shy away from it by any respect. The problem that arises when people don't have the proper understanding of what people are being saved from we get all kinds of heretical teachings that we see today and through the history of the church. At the very least, it should motivate us to share Christ with others.

Peace to you as well my friend.

---

Thanks.

Do you believe in double predestination?

That is the crux of any discussion.

And have you looked at the Greek words anionsis and kolasis? Sorry if I misspelled anything.

And what did Christ say He came for?

Luke 4:18 as posted above tells you what Christ came for. And that is straight from the source. No Jonathan Edwards. No John MacArthur. No John Piper. No Pope.

dermdoc said:

---

And what did Christ say He came for?

---

To do the will of the Father.

Quote:

---

John 6:3540 (ESV): 35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

---

Quote:

---

John 6:6465 (ESV): 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

---

And fwiw, Christ is my buddy and God is love. And I have the Holy Spirit residing in me, It is wonderful.

On Calvinist theology, we will agree to disagree.

I firmly believe that both of us will be with the Lord for eternity, And all will be revealed to us.

I am bowing out now because any further discussion on Calvinism is futile in my opinion.

1 Timothy 2 3-6
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people.

1 John 4:16

We have come to know and believe in the love God has for us. God is love, and whoever remains in love remains in God and God in him.

1 John 4:18

There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.
Shalom

Amen.