Texas A&M's Tony Buzbee did an incredible job defending AG Ken Paxton.
The TX House brought innuendo, gossip and opinions and no evidence. Don't read or watch the news watch the trial.

If you want to know why Christianity and it's principles of innocent unit proven guilty, two or three witness, gossip is bad, go the offended brother first are important just watch this trial.

We have created a thirst to condemn in America because we have dismissed the giver of forgiveness.

I talk about it in an episode called The Fog Of Culture War

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/raising-joyful-children-in-an-angry-world/id1699480343?i=1000627533119

aggiesherpa said:

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Innocent until proven guilty is a Christian principle? I don't think I have heard that before, do you mind providing additional information on that?

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It's not… not directly anyway. The Old Testament lays out basic guidelines for jurisprudence in Deuteronomy.

Multiple witnesses & thorough investigations before confirming or sentencing. Doesn't necessarily say innocent until proven guilty though. Just that it seeks fairness in the Jewish courts.

barbacoa taco said:

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Paxton isn't on trial for having an affair.

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It was relevant to what he's being accused of. But to the point of the OP, it isn't gossip, or innuendo that he had an affair. In a way, he is on trial in the court of public opinion. As Christians, we need to forgive those who falter, but that doesn't mean we are obliged to have them represent us in roles where legislating morality is a factor.

aggiesherpa said:

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Innocent until proven guilty is a Christian principle? I don't think I have heard that before, do you mind providing additional information on that?

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Sure. Thou shalt not bear false witness.

Rocag said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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aggiesherpa said:

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Innocent until proven guilty is a Christian principle? I don't think I have heard that before, do you mind providing additional information on that?

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Sure. Thou shalt not bear false witness.

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That makes no sense. You could assume a person is guilty until proven innocent and criminalize perjury at the same time with no contradiction. The two have nothing to do with each other.

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Sure they do. If you bear false witness against someone without facts and are not going about the accusations the correct way, then you are assuming guilty before innocence, which is bearing false witness.

What exactly do you think it means to bear false witness?

Rocag said:

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What exactly do you think it means to bear false witness?

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To lie, to falsely accuse, slander, gossip falsely against your neighbor…

TheGreatEscape said:

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Rocag said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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aggiesherpa said:

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Innocent until proven guilty is a Christian principle? I don't think I have heard that before, do you mind providing additional information on that?

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Sure. Thou shalt not bear false witness.

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That makes no sense. You could assume a person is guilty until proven innocent and criminalize perjury at the same time with no contradiction. The two have nothing to do with each other.

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Sure they do. If you bear false witness against someone without facts and are not going about the accusations the correct way, then you are assuming guilty before innocence, which is bearing false witness.

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You can go to trial assuming someone is guilty and still punish lying under oath. You're really reaching.

Sapper Redux said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Rocag said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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aggiesherpa said:

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Innocent until proven guilty is a Christian principle? I don't think I have heard that before, do you mind providing additional information on that?

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Sure. Thou shalt not bear false witness.

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That makes no sense. You could assume a person is guilty until proven innocent and criminalize perjury at the same time with no contradiction. The two have nothing to do with each other.

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Sure they do. If you bear false witness against someone without facts and are not going about the accusations the correct way, then you are assuming guilty before innocence, which is bearing false witness.

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You can go to trial assuming someone is guilty and still punish lying under oath. You're really reaching.

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Not reaching. Perjury is one form of it. But there are many forms of bearing false witness. Thou shalt not bear false witness is a summary.

Innocent until proven guilty simply means that the burden is on the prosecutor to show that the accused is guilty. If our system was that a person is guilty until proven innocent then that burden would be on the accused to show that they are innocent.

Imagine that in a trial a person has an alibi that is saying under oath that they were with the accused at the time of the crime so they couldn't have done it. But that person is lying. That's perjury. It's perjury whether the assumption of the court is innocent until proven guilty or guilty until proven innocent.

Rocag said:

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Innocent until proven guilty simply means that the burden is on the prosecutor to show that the accused is guilty. If our system was that a person is guilty until proven innocent then that burden would be on the accused to show that they are innocent.
Imagine that in a trial a person has an alibi that is saying under oath that they were with the accused at the time of the crime so they couldn't have done it. But that person is lying. That's perjury. It's perjury whether the assumption of the court is innocent until proven guilty or guilty until proven innocent.

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Right. And the foundation for it is "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."

Here. Found someone who agrees with me.

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/thou-shalt-not-slander

You have yet to establish that. And your link isn't really addressing the topic we're discussing.

Sure it does. Murder starts with hatred in the heart. Adultery starts in the heart by lusting after women.
There are different degrees of sin.

That's why we have murder 1, murder 2, and manslaughter.

There are different degrees of bearing false witness.
There are gossipers , slanders, and lying on the stand (perjurers).

Innocent until proven guilty is a system brought about to keep us from bearing false witness against our neighbors.
Even the Torah required witnesses and such in order to be proven guilty in a court of law.

You're making assertions not arguments.

Show me how perjury can't exist in a legal system that assumes guilty until proven innocent and I'll happily concede you are right. Otherwise I'm done here.

I don't need to do so. It is like trying to prove a universal negative with what you've asked from me. I've already explained the evidence that innocent until proven guilty is founded upon the 9th commandment.

You've done no such thing and apparently can't do so. There is literally no one in this thread agreeing with you and multiple people pointing out how you've failed to make your point.

Yup, done here.

Okay

Form way back in the 17th Century….from the Westminster Catechism

LC Q 145: What are the sins forbidden in the ninth commandment?
A145: The sins forbidden in the ninth commandment are, all prejudicing the truth, and the good name of our neighbors, as well as our own,[1] especially in public judicature;[2] giving false evidence,[3] suborning false witnesses,[4] wittingly appearing and pleading for an evil cause, outfacing and overbearing the truth;[5] passing unjust sentence,[6] calling evil good, and good evil; rewarding the wicked according to the work of the righteous, and the righteous according to the work of the wicked;[7] forgery,[8] concealing the truth, undue silence in a just cause,[9] and holding our peace when iniquity calleth for either a reproof from ourselves,[10] or complaint to others;[11] speaking the truth unseasonably,[12] or maliciously to a wrong end,[13] or perverting it to a wrong meaning,[14] or in doubtful and equivocal expressions, to the prejudice of truth or justice;[15] speaking untruth,[16] lying,[17] slandering,[18] backbiting,[19] detracting,[20] tale bearing,[21] whispering,[22] scoffing,[23] reviling,[24] rash,[25] harsh,[26] and partial censuring;[27] misconstructing intentions, words, and actions;[28] flattering,[29] vainglorious boasting,[30] thinking or speaking too highly or too meanly of ourselves or others;[31] denying the gifts and graces of God;[32] aggravating smaller faults;[33] hiding, excusing, or extenuating of sins, when called to a free confession;[34] unnecessary discovering of infirmities;[35] raising false rumors,[36] receiving and countenancing evil reports,[37] and stopping our ears against just defense;[38] evil suspicion;[39] envying or grieving at the deserved credit of any,[40] endeavoring or desiring to impair it,[41] rejoicing in their disgrace and infamy;[42] scornful contempt,[43] fond admiration;[44] breach of lawful promises;[45] neglecting such things as are of good report,[46] and practicing, or not avoiding ourselves, or not hindering: What we can in others, such things as procure an ill name.[47]

(1. I Sam. 17:28; II Sam. 1:9-10, 15-16; 16:3 2. Lev. 19:15; Hab. 1:4 3. Prov. 6:16, 19; 19:5 4. Acts 6:13 5. Jer. 9:3, 5; Acts 24:2, 5; Psa. 3:1-4; 12:3-4 6. Prov. 17:15; I Kings 21:9-14 7. Isa. 5:23 8. Psa. 119:69; Luke 16:5-7; 19:8 9. Lev. 5:1; Acts 5:3, 8-9; II Tim. 4:6 10. I Kings 1:6; Lev. 19:17 11. Isa. 59:4 12. Prov. 29:11 13. I Sam. 22:9-10; Psa. 52:1 14. Psa. 56:5; John 2:19; Matt. 26:60-61 15. Gen. 3:5, 26:7, 9 16. Isa. 59:13 17. Lev. 19:11; Col. 3:9 18. Psa. 1:20 19. Psa. 15:3 20. James 4:11; Jer. 38:4 21. Lev. 19:16 22. Rom. 1:29-30 23. Gen. 21:9; Gal. 4:29 24. I Cor. 6:10 25. Mattt. 7:1 26. Acts 28:4 27. Gen. 38:24; Rom. 2:1 28. Neh. 6:6-8; Rom. 3:8; Psa. 69:10; I Sam. 1:13-15; II Sam. 10:3 29. Psa. 12:2-3 30. II Tim. 3: 31. Luke 18:9, 11; Rom. 12:16; I Cor. 4:6; Acts 12:22; Exod. 4:10-14 32. Job 4:6, 27:5-6 33. Matt. 7:3-5 34. Prov. 28:13; 30:20; Gen. 3:12-13; 4:9; Jer. 2:35; II Kings 5:25 35. Gen. 9:22; Prov. 25:9-10 36. Exod. 23:1 37. Prov. 29:12 38. Acts 7:56-57; Job 31:13-14 39. I Cor. 13:5; I Tim. 6:4 40. Num. 11:29; Matt. 21:15 41. Ezra 4:12-13 42. Jer. 48:27 43. Psa. 35:15-16, 21; Matt. 27:28-29 44. Jude 1:16; Acts 12:22 45. Rom. 1:31; II Tim. 3:3 46. I Sam. 2:24 47. II Sam. 13:12-13; Prov. 5:8-9; 6:33).

https://www.puritanboard.com/help/9th-commandment/

If you've done all that… then you are innocent until proven guilty.

Q144: What are the duties required in the ninth commandment?
A144: The duties required in the ninth commandment are, the preserving and promoting of truth between man and man,[1] and the good name of our neighbor, as well as our own;[2] appearing and standing for the truth;[3] and from the heart,[4] sincerely,[5] freely,[6] clearly,[7] and fully,[8] speaking the truth, and only the truth, in matters of judgment and justice,[9] and in all other things whatsoever;[10] a charitable esteem of our neighbors;[11] loving, desiring, and rejoicing in their good name;[12] sorrowing for,[13] and covering of their infirmities;[14] freely acknowledging of their gifts and graces,[15] defending their innocence;[16] a ready receiving of a good report,[17] and unwillingness to admit of an evil report,[18] concerning them; discouraging talebearers,[19] flatterers,[20] and slanderers;[21] love and care of our own good name, and defending it when need requireth;[22] keeping of lawful promises;[23] studying and practicing of whatsoever things are true, honest, lovely, and of good report.[24]
(1. Zech. 8:16 2. III John 1:12 3. Prov. 31:8-9 4. Psa. 15:2 5. II Chr. 19:9 6. I Sam. 19:4-5 7. Josh. 7:19 8. II Sam. 14:18-20 9. Lev. 19:15; Prov. 14:5, 25 10. II Cor. 1:17-18; Eph. 4:25 11. Heb. 6:9; I Cor. 13:7 12. Rom. 1:8; II John 1:4; III John 1:3-4 13. II Cor. 2:4; 12:21 14. Prov. 17:9; I Peter 4:8 15. I Cor. 1:4-5, 7; II Tim. 1:4-5 16. I Sam. 22:14 17. I Cor. 13:6-7 18. Psa. 15:3 19. Prov. 25:23 20. Prov. 26:24-25 21. Psa. 101:5 22. Prov. 22:1; John 8:49 23. Psa. 15:4 24. Phil. 4:8);

Innocent until proven guilty…

https://www.puritanboard.com/help/9th-commandment/

So can you see the origins yet?

Speaking of innocent until proven guilty, when will he actually have to face a real trial for the indictment from 2015?

What a joke.

Heildelberg Catechism (New York was once New Amsterdam)…

Lord's Day 43

Q & A 112

Q. What is the aim of the ninth commandment?

A. That I

never give false testimony against anyone,
twist no one's words,
not gossip or slander,
nor join in condemning anyone
rashly or without a hearing.1

Rather, in court and everywhere else,
I should avoid lying and deceit of every kind;

these are the very devices the devil uses,
and they would call down on me God's intense wrath.2

I should love the truth,

speak it candidly,
and openly acknowledge it.3

And I should do what I can

to guard and advance my neighbor's good name.4

1 Ps. 15; Prov. 19:5; Matt. 7:1; Luke 6:37; Rom. 1:28-32
2 Lev. 19:11-12; Prov. 12:22; 13:5; John 8:44; Rev. 21:8a>
3 1 Cor. 13:6; Eph. 4:25
4 1 Pet. 3:8-9; 4:8

https://www.crcna.org/welcome/beliefs/confessions/heidelberg-catechism

Icing on the cake…

"Remember, as well, the Biblical principle that a witness or testimony is only taken as true on the basis of at least two witnesses: meaning, it must be two who can testify with the same clarity as to the actuality of the matter. This principle is not only for "legal or court testimony" but also "in all other things whatsoever". The Divines continue by stating: "a charitable esteem of our neighbors"; showing that the Scriptures require the disposition of the mind must be first and foremost "charitable". We must always put forward a posture of love to our neighbors, to desire a good name for them, and to rejoice in that good name. However, this is not enough, as the WCF notes, for the Scriptures require of us a: "sorrowing for, and covering of their infirmities"; This requirement is difficult, but it is founded upon the lawful principle of love for our neighbor and concern for his good name. Rather than exposing his infirmities through sinful speech to others, or criticizing him and defaming his good name, either publicly or privately, our love must cover his infirmities. While it is our duty to humbly and privately reprove and warn him of his sin and help him to seek repentance, we must use great care when speaking to others to protect their reputation. We are required to defend them when they are falsely accused. Defending those who are innocent is our duty at all times; however, the inference here is greater because even when we know their infirmities and shortcomings we are to remain constant in their defense, and avoid communicating their faults to others! Many times it is easier to receive an evil report of them than a good report, and then compound that sin by repeating the evil to someone else. This is exactly why we must be unwilling to receive an evil report."

https://www.puritanboard.com/help/9th-commandment/