I said what I said…

I view marriage as a sacrament. I believe someone must be a repentant, divorcee, and acknowledge their wrongs before the church just brings them back in to some group to introduced to a bunch of other divorcees.

Seems like there should be a step in between being divorced and getting to shore up to random some church group completely unvetted with other divorcees like it's a singles class.

I am not divorced, so I'm not coming at this from a bitter perspective.

I am not divorced, so I'm not coming out this from a defensive standpoint either.

I think roughly 60% of people in the room are divorced, so I understand there may be some sensitivities.

I think because we live in a broken society with a high number of divorces that it's so common we are desensitized to what it is and how WE SHOULD react to it.


I said what I said and you may not agree but that's ok.

AG @ HEART said:

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Dr. Mephisto said:

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CrackerJackAg said:

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I think that is interesting. Anyone can attend? No qualifications on who can attend?

The unrepentant philandering husband allowed to sit by the abused wife, and we all act like it's the same?

It's odd to me anyway that a church would emphasize evangelizing opportunities & bringing people in over knowing the people you bringing in to your events.

Forgiveness should be reserved for those who are repentant. If this is open to strangers outside the church that seems suspect.

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I see somebody woke up on the Pharisee side of the bed today.

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Pulling up the ladder of forgiveness in Christ behind them.

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Forgiveness is available to every repentant Christian.

I just found the willy nilly openness to anybody who wants to show up a bit odd. There's no such thing as a no-fault divorce.

No one disagrees with the idea of healing. There also needs to be repentance prior to any healing taking place. I think that was what crackerjack maybe was digging at.

I believe some are coming at this topic more from the angle of church discipline than equating recovery from divorce and miraculous healing in the same light.

dermdoc said:

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And just to add, I have never been divorced and have been married for 34 years. I believe the church should be a place of healing. Not condemnation.

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Healing=/=Hospice doc. Sometimes treatment hurts.

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I believe some are coming at this topic more from the angle of church discipline than equating recovery from divorce and miraculous healing in the same light.

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To me, healing is healing.

And would not the fact that they are attending a class like this suggest they need healing? And that they understand divorce is a serious deal?

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Sorry but the church has gotten just as laxed as the mainstream regarding divorce. As I said before, in this case, authentic and lasting healing is only going to be a product of a genuinely repentant heart.

BiochemAg97 said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I believe some are coming at this topic more from the angle of church discipline than equating recovery from divorce and miraculous healing in the same light.

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But is this really an issue of church discipline?

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It is definitely in that realm, no doubt.

Nah. Jesus is Lord of the sabbath now thankfully.

Dies Irae said:

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BiochemAg97 said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I believe some are coming at this topic more from the angle of church discipline than equating recovery from divorce and miraculous healing in the same light.

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But is this really an issue of church discipline?

During his earthly ministry, Jesus was clearly not a fan of divorce, but still offered plenty of forgiveness without punishment. He was also not a fan of religious authority handling enforcement.

Seems like church discipline should focus on things like misappropriating funds or pastors and others in leadership positions taking advantage of their flock. The church can/should strip people of their position of authority when they cross the line. Let Jesus handle the discipline for divorce, because I think all too often, people will judge the sins of others more harshly than their own.

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I do not believe he was not a fan of religious authority handling enforcement, rather that he wasn't a fan of religious authority picking and choosing when to appropriately follow the law. Christ instructs his followers to listen to the scribes and the pharisees because they sit in the seat of Moses, but not to do as they do. This is very important.

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Fair enough, but "he who is without sin, cast the first stone" seemed very much a statement that we are not worthy to give out punishments. We are all sinners, but as I said, people often judge others sins more harshly than the sins they are guilty of.

Infidelity/divorce seems to be one of those that is punished more harshly than say taking the lords name in vein, worshiping false idols, and keeping holy the sabbath.

Dies Irae said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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No one disagrees with the idea of healing. There also needs to be repentance prior to any healing taking place. I think that was what crackerjack maybe was digging at.

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Where in the Bible do Jesus or the disciples tell people to repent before they healed them?

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Does Jesus say "leave your cross and follow me" or "take up your cross and follow me"?

In the Gospels Christ makes it known that the lepers/sick woman/prostitute faith has healed them, the Church teaches that God makes the first move towards us, but that we have to move towards Him as an act of will.

I don't know what Bible you use, so I'll just pull from the KJV, but in Matthew; Christ say "Verily I say to you; UNLESS YOU BE CONVERTED, and become as little children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven".

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That is about salvation, correct? Not divorce.

And I have numerous Bibles and have read the Bible about ten times. And do so every year.


There is no Scripture where any healing by Jesus or the apostles was preceded by a demand of repentance.

And I can not tell if someone is "truly repentant".

I can not tell if I share the Gospel if it is effective.

Offering a support group with Christian teachings, isn't that God opening a door? And the people who want to be helped respond?

dermdoc said:

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Dies Irae said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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No one disagrees with the idea of healing. There also needs to be repentance prior to any healing taking place. I think that was what crackerjack maybe was digging at.

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Where in the Bible do Jesus or the disciples tell people to repent before they healed them?

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Does Jesus say "leave your cross and follow me" or "take up your cross and follow me"?

In the Gospels Christ makes it known that the lepers/sick woman/prostitute faith has healed them, the Church teaches that God makes the first move towards us, but that we have to move towards Him as an act of will.

I don't know what Bible you use, so I'll just pull from the KJV, but in Matthew; Christ say "Verily I say to you; UNLESS YOU BE CONVERTED, and become as little children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven".

---

That is about salvation, correct? And I have numerous Bibles and have read the Bible about ten times. And do so every year.

Not divorce.

There is no Scripture where any healing by Jesus or the apostles was preceded by a demand of repentance.

And I can not tell if someone is "truly repentant".

I can not tell if I share the Gospel if it is effective.

Offering a support group with Christian teachings, isn't that God opening a door? And the people who want to be helped respond?

---

You're veering off course, my comment was in regards to your "where in the Bible does Jesus or the disciples tell people to repent before they heal them".

You're thinking only of physical ailments; how does Christ heal us of our spiritual ailments (sin)? Does he forgive our sins before we repent of them, on a whim?

I truly don't understand the disconnect with "One doesn't need to repent in order to be forgiven" and then drawing an allusion to Christ's miraculous healings in the Gospels.

Dies Irae said:

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dermdoc said:

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Dies Irae said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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No one disagrees with the idea of healing. There also needs to be repentance prior to any healing taking place. I think that was what crackerjack maybe was digging at.

---

Where in the Bible do Jesus or the disciples tell people to repent before they healed them?

---

Does Jesus say "leave your cross and follow me" or "take up your cross and follow me"?

In the Gospels Christ makes it known that the lepers/sick woman/prostitute faith has healed them, the Church teaches that God makes the first move towards us, but that we have to move towards Him as an act of will.

I don't know what Bible you use, so I'll just pull from the KJV, but in Matthew; Christ say "Verily I say to you; UNLESS YOU BE CONVERTED, and become as little children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven".

---

That is about salvation, correct? And I have numerous Bibles and have read the Bible about ten times. And do so every year.

Not divorce.

There is no Scripture where any healing by Jesus or the apostles was preceded by a demand of repentance.

And I can not tell if someone is "truly repentant".

I can not tell if I share the Gospel if it is effective.

Offering a support group with Christian teachings, isn't that God opening a door? And the people who want to be helped respond?

---

You're veering off course, my comment was in regards to your "where in the Bible does Jesus or the disciples tell people to repent before they heal them".

You're thinking only of physical ailments; how does Christ heal us of our spiritual ailments (sin)? Does he forgive our sins before we repent of them, on a whim?

I truly don't understand the disconnect with "One doesn't need to repent in order to be forgiven" and then drawing an allusion to Christ's miraculous healings in the Gospels.

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I think we are talking past each other.

What should the divorced have to do to show "true" repentance?

And how does another human being know it is "true"?

And not trying to argue, I honestly do not know.

I think Christ forgives all sins. We have to accept that through faith. Change our mind. That is the definition of the Greek word metanoia, which means to change one's mind or turn away from something.

It seems like going to a Christian based divorce group would be exhibiting repentance.

Freeze, I am just focusing on your claim that nowhere in the Bible do Jesus or his disciples demand repentance before healing someone.

You said this in response to someone claiming forgiveness and healing could only come after repentance. Why wouldn't that be the case?

This seems to be a theme amongst some "progressive Christians" who misinterpret certain Bible passages to fit a preconceived view.

I mentioned it earlier, healing is often painful. Hospice is painless. We should be working towards healing people and dragging them and their crosses back to Christ, and not making the comfortable in spiritual death.

Bob Lee said:

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dermdoc said:

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Dies Irae said:

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dermdoc said:

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Dies Irae said:

---

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

---

No one disagrees with the idea of healing. There also needs to be repentance prior to any healing taking place. I think that was what crackerjack maybe was digging at.

---

Where in the Bible do Jesus or the disciples tell people to repent before they healed them?

---

Does Jesus say "leave your cross and follow me" or "take up your cross and follow me"?

In the Gospels Christ makes it known that the lepers/sick woman/prostitute faith has healed them, the Church teaches that God makes the first move towards us, but that we have to move towards Him as an act of will.

I don't know what Bible you use, so I'll just pull from the KJV, but in Matthew; Christ say "Verily I say to you; UNLESS YOU BE CONVERTED, and become as little children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven".

---

That is about salvation, correct? And I have numerous Bibles and have read the Bible about ten times. And do so every year.

Not divorce.

There is no Scripture where any healing by Jesus or the apostles was preceded by a demand of repentance.

And I can not tell if someone is "truly repentant".

I can not tell if I share the Gospel if it is effective.

Offering a support group with Christian teachings, isn't that God opening a door? And the people who want to be helped respond?

---

You're veering off course, my comment was in regards to your "where in the Bible does Jesus or the disciples tell people to repent before they heal them".

You're thinking only of physical ailments; how does Christ heal us of our spiritual ailments (sin)? Does he forgive our sins before we repent of them, on a whim?

I truly don't understand the disconnect with "One doesn't need to repent in order to be forgiven" and then drawing an allusion to Christ's miraculous healings in the Gospels.

---

I think we are talking past each other.

What should the divorced have to do to show "true" repentance?

And how does another human being know it is "true"?

And not trying to argue, I honestly do not know.

I think Christ forgives all sins. We have to accept that through faith. Change our mind. That is the definition of the Greek word metanoia, which means to change one's mind or turn away from something.

It seems like going to a Christian based divorce group would be exhibiting repentance.

---

If marriage is indissoluble, can divorce be a possibility? I guess it depends on what divorce means, but it seems to me that if you're in a valid marriage, then you can never get out of it for as long as you're alive. How can you be repentant if you don't intend to change your behavior?

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Yes, examine every covenant in the Bible, and the fallout from breaking them. (Hint it isn't good)

Dies Irae said:

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Freeze, I am just focusing on your claim that nowhere in the Bible do Jesus or his disciples demand repentance before healing someone.

You said this in response to someone claiming forgiveness and healing could only come after repentance. Why wouldn't that be the case?

This seems to be a theme amongst some "progressive Christians" who misinterpret certain Bible passages to fit a preconceived view.

I mentioned it earlier, healing is often painful. Hospice is painless. We should be working towards healing people and dragging them and their crosses back to Christ, and not making the comfortable in spiritual death.

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So what should they have to do? What punishment is sufficient in your eyes?

And thanks for the projection and kind of ad hom.

I was not talking about salvation when I talked about physical healings.

That is why I said we were talking past each other. Sorry for any confusion.

Bob Lee said:

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dermdoc said:

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Dies Irae said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Dies Irae said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

No one disagrees with the idea of healing. There also needs to be repentance prior to any healing taking place. I think that was what crackerjack maybe was digging at.

---

Where in the Bible do Jesus or the disciples tell people to repent before they healed them?

---

Does Jesus say "leave your cross and follow me" or "take up your cross and follow me"?

In the Gospels Christ makes it known that the lepers/sick woman/prostitute faith has healed them, the Church teaches that God makes the first move towards us, but that we have to move towards Him as an act of will.

I don't know what Bible you use, so I'll just pull from the KJV, but in Matthew; Christ say "Verily I say to you; UNLESS YOU BE CONVERTED, and become as little children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven".

---

That is about salvation, correct? And I have numerous Bibles and have read the Bible about ten times. And do so every year.

Not divorce.

There is no Scripture where any healing by Jesus or the apostles was preceded by a demand of repentance.

And I can not tell if someone is "truly repentant".

I can not tell if I share the Gospel if it is effective.

Offering a support group with Christian teachings, isn't that God opening a door? And the people who want to be helped respond?

---

You're veering off course, my comment was in regards to your "where in the Bible does Jesus or the disciples tell people to repent before they heal them".

You're thinking only of physical ailments; how does Christ heal us of our spiritual ailments (sin)? Does he forgive our sins before we repent of them, on a whim?

I truly don't understand the disconnect with "One doesn't need to repent in order to be forgiven" and then drawing an allusion to Christ's miraculous healings in the Gospels.

---

I think we are talking past each other.

What should the divorced have to do to show "true" repentance?

And how does another human being know it is "true"?

And not trying to argue, I honestly do not know.

I think Christ forgives all sins. We have to accept that through faith. Change our mind. That is the definition of the Greek word metanoia, which means to change one's mind or turn away from something.

It seems like going to a Christian based divorce group would be exhibiting repentance.

---

If marriage is indissoluble, can divorce be a possibility? I guess it depends on what divorce means, but it seems to me that if you're in a valid marriage, then you can never get out of it for as long as you're alive. How can you be repentant if you don't intend to change your behavior?

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I agree with you. Do you think the church should just kick all divorced people out? Because divorce is going to happen.

And if not, what punishment do you think they deserve?

How do you know they are truly repentant?

As I stated, I do not believe in divorce. Just curious as to y'all feel it should be handled.

What repentance "process" do you advocate before they can attend a Christian divorce group?

Or do you think the church should not even offer these.