Question on Mary

30,146 Views | 426 Replies | Last: 11 mo ago by Redstone
AgLiving06
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Quote:

STEP 0: The Apostolic churches (East & West) discerned which books should be included in or excluded from the Sacred Scriptures. These writings were protected and passed down through the generations for more than a thousand years before we come to the Reformation period. The 7 so-called apocryphal books are included in both the Eastern and Western traditions without scandal (despite the East having a slightly larger collection of accepted writings). These 7 books were not distinguishable from the other OT books, and were scattered throughout the OT. These 7 books were used and referenced significantly by the NT authors and the Church. FACT: The 7 books were there.

It's not a good start when you "Step 0" is incorrect.

The bolded is factually and historically incorrect.

1. Lets start with the obvious. The word Apocrypha (which I believe started with Jerome) by definition denotes a difference between these books and the rest of the OT. So definitionally we are distinguishing these books. This makes your statement inaccurate at best.

2. History is also not on your side via multiple biblical scholars.

J.N.D. Kelly Reports:

"It was in the fourth century, particularly where the scholarly standards of Alexandrian Christianity were influential, that these doubts began to make their mark officially. The view which now commended itself fairly generally in the Eastern church, as represented by Athanasius, Cyril of Jerusalem,10 Gregory of Nazianzus and Epiphanius,12 was that the deuterocanonical books should be relegated to a subordinate position outside the canon proper. Cyril was quite uncompromising; books not in the public canon were not to be studied even in private. Athanasius displayed greater flexibility, ruling2 that they might be used by catechumens for the purpose of instruction. Yet it should be noted (a) that no such scruples seem to have troubled adherents of the Antiochene School, such as John Chrysostom and Theodoret; and (b) that even those Eastern writers who took a strict line with the canon when it was formally under discussion were profuse in their citations from the Apocrypha on other occasions. This official reserve, however, persisted for long in the East. As late as the eighth century we find John Damascene maintaining the Hebrew canon of twenty-two books and excluding Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus, although he was ready to acknowledge their admirable qualities."

"The West, as a whole, was inclined to form a much more favourable estimate of the Apocrypha. Churchmen with Eastern contacts, as was to be expected, might be disposed to push them into the background. Thus Hilary, though in fact citing all of them as inspired, preferred to identify the Old Testament proper with the twenty-two books (as he reckoned them) extant in the Hebrew; while Rufinus described5 Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Tobit, Judith and 1 and 2 Maccabees as 'not canonical, but ecclesiastical', i.e. to be read by Christians but not adduced as authoritative for doctrine. Jerome, conscious of the difficulty of arguing with Jews on the basis of books they spurned and anyhow regarding the Hebrew original as authoritative, was adamant that anything not found in it was 'to be classed among the apocrypha', not in the canon; later he grudgingly conceded7 that the Church read some of these books for edification, but not to support doctrine. For the great majority, however, the deutero-canonical writings ranked as Scripture in the fullest sense. Augustine, for example, whose influence in the West was decisive, made no distinction between them and the rest of the Old Testament, to which, breaking away once for all from the ancient Hebrew enumeration, he attributed forty-four books. The same inclusive attitude to the Apocrypha was authoritatively displayed at the synods of Hippo and Carthage in 393 and 397 respectively, and also in the famous letter which Pope Innocent I despatched to Exuperius, bishop of Toulouse, in 405.



Even Schaff (who I believe is Roman Catholic) notes:

"I. In respect to the HOLY SCRIPTURES:
At the end of the fourth century views still differed in regard to the extent of the canon, or the number of the books which should be acknowledged as divine and authoritative.
The Jewish canon, or the Hebrew Bible, was universally received, while the Apocrypha added to the Greek version of the Septuagint were only in a general way accounted as books suitable for church reading, and thus as a middle class between canonical and strictly apocryphal (pseudonymous) writings. And justly; for those books, while they have great historical value, and fill the gap between the Old Testament and the New, all originated after the cessation of prophecy, and they cannot therefore be regarded as inspired, nor are they ever cited by Christ or the apostles."

"In the Western church the canon of both Testaments was closed at the end of the fourth century through the authority of Jerome (who wavered, however, between critical doubts and the principle of tradition), and more especially of Augustine, who firmly followed the Alexandrian canon of the Septuagint, and the preponderant tradition in reference to the disputed Catholic Epistles and the Revelation; though he himself, in some places, inclines to consider the Old Testament Apocrypha as deutero-canonical books, bearing a subordinate authority. The council of Hippo in 393, and the third (according to another reckoning the sixth) council of Carthage in 397, under the influence of Augustine, who attended both, fixed the catholic canon of the Holy Scriptures, including the Apocrypha of the Old Testament, and prohibited the reading of other books in the churches, excepting the Acts of the Martyrs on their memorial days. These two African councils, with Augustine,1296 give forty-four books as the canonical books of the Old Testament, in the following order: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings (the two of Samuel and the two of Kings), two books of Paralipomena (Chronicles), Job, the Psalms, five books of Solomon, the twelve minor Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobias, Judith, Esther, two books of Ezra, two books of Maccabees. The New Testament canon is the same as ours."

-----------

Step 1 itself is built on a faulty premise. You use a presupposition that the order of the canon is/was divinely inspired. while I think it's an interesting proposition because of the parallels to Sola Scriptura, it's an incorrect assumption.

Frankly, I don't think anybody during the Reformation necessarily argued against what Luther did.

You making such a big deal about it is actually the more interesting aspect because it tends to prove the claim that Protestants make against Rome. Rome is always looking for an authority over the Scriptures and in that we have the true source of authority within that religious group.

So like Step 0, this one seems to fall apart under examination.

------------

Step 2 fails when the actual history of the Apocrypha is looked at. Given the history provided, taking the stance of anathematizing anyone who did not hold the Apocrypha as canon actually anathematizes some significant Saints.

As I've also pointed out, not even a majority of voters (bishops?) agreed to affirm this canon. The passage relied on a significant portion abstaining from the vote.

So yes, Trent took a novel step of essentially anathematizing a significant portion of the historical church in order to anathematize the Reformers.

-------------

Step 3 I've already said is a mistake, but it's not a "Protestant" mistake.

--------------
However, it's worth noting that it's not a "Protestant issue" as you claim. Most of the Reformation churches hold to the historical view of these books.

I've already commented on the Lutheran position so won't reiterate that.

The Anglican 39 Articles says the following in Article 6

"And the other Books (as Hierome saith) the Church doth read for example of life and instruction of manners; but yet doth not apply them to establish any doctrine; such are these following...."(they list out the Apocrypha). We see this directly in the

Even John Calvin said the following in his response to the Council of Trent:

"I am not one of those, however, who would entirely disapprove the reading of those books; but in giving them in authority which they never before possessed, what end was sought but just to have the use of spurious paint in coloring their errors?...Of their admitting all the Books promiscuously into the Canon, I say nothing more than it is done against the consent of the primitive Church. It is well known what Jerome states as the common opinion of earlier times. And Ruffinus, speaking of the matter as not at all controverted, declares with Jerome that Ecclesiasticus, the Wisdom of Solomon, Tobit, Judith, and the history of the Maccabees, were called by the Fathers not canonical but ecclesiastical books, which might indeed be read to the people, but were not entitled to establish doctrine."

-----------
So if we consider your steps now, we find that:

Step 0 was an inaccurate portrayal of history
Step 1 made a presuppositional claim that was incorrect.
Step 2 in light of Step 0 falls to a problem.
Step 3 I stated from the top was something I think should be corrected and the Apocrypha put back in with the same historical context that Luther applied to it.

And finally, your claim about "Protestants" also fails to stand up to historical scrutiny as the chief Reformers all held a very historically correct view of these books as has been proved above.


Dies Irae
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Why didn't you bold and highlight this portion? Are you familiar with the history of the Church and what role the councils played in the formation of Christianity?

Why don't you tell us about all the Bishops who were in favor of Arianism? There were many. Tell me about the musings of St John Chrysostom on the Jews and how St Jerome thought that Satan would be reconciled one day. There are very holy people who get things wrong, which is why we rely on the Councils and the Magisterium.

The councils of Hippo and Carthage set the canon for Christianity; this is why the "apocrypha" is included in both Orthodox and Catholic scripture. Are there levels of "God-breathed"? Do we need to revise Timothy with saying "only some scripture is profitable"?
AgLiving06
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one MEEN Ag said:

Legal Custodian said:

Can someone explain to me the Catholic or Orthodox view on why Mary is venerated as she is? I (Protestant) definitely view Mary as a beloved mother and fellow believer, but I just don't understand the almost worship she gets.

Is there something in the Apocrypha that's not in the 66?

I just don't get how they can view Immaculate Conception, Assumption, and Perpetual virginity as biblical.

And I am truly sincere in my question in search of the logic or evidence based in the Bible.

Thank you.
I would humbly ask that you take a step back on Mary, if you come with protestant views of church, sacraments, history, and tradition, its going to follow that Mary looks disjointed. So don't take it personally when this thread wanders off of Mary and into the rest of what I've described. It looks like it already has.

Here's a starter on Mary, its The Protoevangelium of James and tells the story of Mary.

https://www.nasscal.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Vuong-Protevangelium-of-James-Preview.pdf
and
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm
(just two easy to access pdfs of it)

A couple of glaring big differences between what protestant informs about Mary and what the Orthodox and Catholic agree on about Mary through these preserved scriptures.

-Joseph was not a strapping young man wed to Mary out of romantic love. He was 'asked' to be her protector by casting lots. He was way way older than her. A graying man.
-Mary was looked after by the temple from time as toddler. Her parents were righteous, and had Mary offered as a gift to the Lord in her service to the temple.
-Mary went into the holiest of holiest one time, and nothing happened to her. Showing God's divinity placed upon Mary. Mary was/is the embodiment of the holiest of holies. Just as the the holiest of holies carried the most divine elements of Judiasm, she carried the Lord himself.
-By all accounts, Mary was peaceful, loving, kind, and servant hearted. Every trait we expect Christians to have, she did.

In the OT you see the special role of Queen mother. The queen isn't the King's romantic partner, but his mother.
Like others have said, Mary is queen mother, and she also provides the obedient foil to Eve. The reestablished Eve to bring forth Jesus and the new age.

Mary plays literally the highest role in Christianity that isn't God himself. She saw her son unjustly be murdered.

There is a distinct difference between veneration and worship. Worship is participation in communion with the Lord through the Eucharist. You are partaking in the Lord's flesh. Veneration is not worship. Veneration is praise, celebration, and thankfulness. All veneration passes through the praised unto God. Mary is venerated for her reflection and role she played in reflection to God. Nobody venerates Mary thinking she is separate source of power and influence away from God. (I.E - nobody worships Mary).

It's worth noting that the The Protevangelium of James appears to have been condemned by Pope Innocent I in 405.

But it is a great example of how spurious writings can influence unwritten traditions.

one MEEN Ag
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AG
AgLiving06 said:

one MEEN Ag said:

Legal Custodian said:

Can someone explain to me the Catholic or Orthodox view on why Mary is venerated as she is? I (Protestant) definitely view Mary as a beloved mother and fellow believer, but I just don't understand the almost worship she gets.

Is there something in the Apocrypha that's not in the 66?

I just don't get how they can view Immaculate Conception, Assumption, and Perpetual virginity as biblical.

And I am truly sincere in my question in search of the logic or evidence based in the Bible.

Thank you.
I would humbly ask that you take a step back on Mary, if you come with protestant views of church, sacraments, history, and tradition, its going to follow that Mary looks disjointed. So don't take it personally when this thread wanders off of Mary and into the rest of what I've described. It looks like it already has.

Here's a starter on Mary, its The Protoevangelium of James and tells the story of Mary.

https://www.nasscal.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Vuong-Protevangelium-of-James-Preview.pdf
and
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm
(just two easy to access pdfs of it)

A couple of glaring big differences between what protestant informs about Mary and what the Orthodox and Catholic agree on about Mary through these preserved scriptures.

-Joseph was not a strapping young man wed to Mary out of romantic love. He was 'asked' to be her protector by casting lots. He was way way older than her. A graying man.
-Mary was looked after by the temple from time as toddler. Her parents were righteous, and had Mary offered as a gift to the Lord in her service to the temple.
-Mary went into the holiest of holiest one time, and nothing happened to her. Showing God's divinity placed upon Mary. Mary was/is the embodiment of the holiest of holies. Just as the the holiest of holies carried the most divine elements of Judiasm, she carried the Lord himself.
-By all accounts, Mary was peaceful, loving, kind, and servant hearted. Every trait we expect Christians to have, she did.

In the OT you see the special role of Queen mother. The queen isn't the King's romantic partner, but his mother.
Like others have said, Mary is queen mother, and she also provides the obedient foil to Eve. The reestablished Eve to bring forth Jesus and the new age.

Mary plays literally the highest role in Christianity that isn't God himself. She saw her son unjustly be murdered.

There is a distinct difference between veneration and worship. Worship is participation in communion with the Lord through the Eucharist. You are partaking in the Lord's flesh. Veneration is not worship. Veneration is praise, celebration, and thankfulness. All veneration passes through the praised unto God. Mary is venerated for her reflection and role she played in reflection to God. Nobody venerates Mary thinking she is separate source of power and influence away from God. (I.E - nobody worships Mary).

It's worth noting that the The Protevangelium of James appears to have been condemned by Pope Innocent I in 405.

But it is a great example of how spurious writings can influence unwritten traditions.


What makes it so spurious? In 405 the Pope, as an office, didn't even exist as an individual decreeing authority. You see the eastern church bishops give respect to the office of the bishop of Rome (especially when other eastern bishops are factioned and misbehaving), but in 405 there hadn't even been the second counsel to finish out the Nicene creed yet.

In 405, having any single bishop condemn something is more in line with, 'lets let time sort this out'.

I've tried looking up Pope Innocent I's decrees but I couldn't find anything specific. My google-fu for 1600 year old catholic decrees is lacking.
AgLiving06
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one MEEN Ag said:

AgLiving06 said:

one MEEN Ag said:

Legal Custodian said:

Can someone explain to me the Catholic or Orthodox view on why Mary is venerated as she is? I (Protestant) definitely view Mary as a beloved mother and fellow believer, but I just don't understand the almost worship she gets.

Is there something in the Apocrypha that's not in the 66?

I just don't get how they can view Immaculate Conception, Assumption, and Perpetual virginity as biblical.

And I am truly sincere in my question in search of the logic or evidence based in the Bible.

Thank you.
I would humbly ask that you take a step back on Mary, if you come with protestant views of church, sacraments, history, and tradition, its going to follow that Mary looks disjointed. So don't take it personally when this thread wanders off of Mary and into the rest of what I've described. It looks like it already has.

Here's a starter on Mary, its The Protoevangelium of James and tells the story of Mary.

https://www.nasscal.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Vuong-Protevangelium-of-James-Preview.pdf
and
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm
(just two easy to access pdfs of it)

A couple of glaring big differences between what protestant informs about Mary and what the Orthodox and Catholic agree on about Mary through these preserved scriptures.

-Joseph was not a strapping young man wed to Mary out of romantic love. He was 'asked' to be her protector by casting lots. He was way way older than her. A graying man.
-Mary was looked after by the temple from time as toddler. Her parents were righteous, and had Mary offered as a gift to the Lord in her service to the temple.
-Mary went into the holiest of holiest one time, and nothing happened to her. Showing God's divinity placed upon Mary. Mary was/is the embodiment of the holiest of holies. Just as the the holiest of holies carried the most divine elements of Judiasm, she carried the Lord himself.
-By all accounts, Mary was peaceful, loving, kind, and servant hearted. Every trait we expect Christians to have, she did.

In the OT you see the special role of Queen mother. The queen isn't the King's romantic partner, but his mother.
Like others have said, Mary is queen mother, and she also provides the obedient foil to Eve. The reestablished Eve to bring forth Jesus and the new age.

Mary plays literally the highest role in Christianity that isn't God himself. She saw her son unjustly be murdered.

There is a distinct difference between veneration and worship. Worship is participation in communion with the Lord through the Eucharist. You are partaking in the Lord's flesh. Veneration is not worship. Veneration is praise, celebration, and thankfulness. All veneration passes through the praised unto God. Mary is venerated for her reflection and role she played in reflection to God. Nobody venerates Mary thinking she is separate source of power and influence away from God. (I.E - nobody worships Mary).

It's worth noting that the The Protevangelium of James appears to have been condemned by Pope Innocent I in 405.

But it is a great example of how spurious writings can influence unwritten traditions.


What makes it so spurious? In 405 the Pope, as an office, didn't even exist as an individual decreeing authority. You see the eastern church bishops give respect to the office of the bishop of Rome (especially when other eastern bishops are factioned and misbehaving), but in 405 there hadn't even been the second counsel to finish out the Nicene creed yet.

In 405, having any single bishop condemn something is more in line with, 'lets let time sort this out'.

I've tried looking up Pope Innocent I's decrees but I couldn't find anything specific. My google-fu for 1600 year old catholic decrees is lacking.

You know who agrees with me? Catholic Answers...Link

"The Protoevangelium is from the East (perhaps Syria), and its stories became popular in both East and West, but Western theologians tended not to take its accounts seriously. The book was among those condemned by Pope Innocent I in 405, and again by the "Decretum Gelasianum." Nevertheless, stories from the Protoevangelium crept into the Western medieval imagination via yet another false Gospel, a seventh-century text called The Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew, which implausibly claimed both to have been written in Hebrew by the apostle and translated into Latin by St. Jerome. This text borrows heavily from the Protoevangelium and presents Joseph as saying Mary is younger than his grandchildren."
AgLiving06
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Dies Irae said:

Why didn't you bold and highlight this portion? Are you familiar with the history of the Church and what role the councils played in the formation of Christianity?

Why don't you tell us about all the Bishops who were in favor of Arianism? There were many. Tell me about the musings of St John Chrysostom on the Jews and how St Jerome thought that Satan would be reconciled one day. There are very holy people who get things wrong, which is why we rely on the Councils and the Magisterium.

The councils of Hippo and Carthage set the canon for Christianity; this is why the "apocrypha" is included in both Orthodox and Catholic scripture. Are there levels of "God-breathed"? Do we need to revise Timothy with saying "only some scripture is profitable"?



So it's now your claim that a local council set the canon for the entire church? That may be more novel than Trent trying to set the canon itself.

The rest really just supports the Protestant view. Church history is messy and there was rarely a uniform belief. To claim some singular viewpoint as Rome forces something on the fathers that just wasn't there.
Dies Irae
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AgLiving06 said:

Dies Irae said:

Why didn't you bold and highlight this portion? Are you familiar with the history of the Church and what role the councils played in the formation of Christianity?

Why don't you tell us about all the Bishops who were in favor of Arianism? There were many. Tell me about the musings of St John Chrysostom on the Jews and how St Jerome thought that Satan would be reconciled one day. There are very holy people who get things wrong, which is why we rely on the Councils and the Magisterium.

The councils of Hippo and Carthage set the canon for Christianity; this is why the "apocrypha" is included in both Orthodox and Catholic scripture. Are there levels of "God-breathed"? Do we need to revise Timothy with saying "only some scripture is profitable"?



So it's now your claim that a local council set the canon for the entire church? That may be more novel than Trent trying to set the canon itself.

The rest really just supports the Protestant view. Church history is messy and there was rarely a uniform belief. To claim some singular viewpoint as Rome forces something on the fathers that just wasn't there.


Rome was specifically mentioned as being needed to confirm the scriptural canon proceeding the Council of Carthage. This is how the Church works, not by one monk deciding to add words, or remove books on his own authority, but by the Holy Spirit working through the Apostles of Christ, and their successors the Catholic Episcopate.





FTACo88-FDT24dad
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AG
TheGreatEscape said:

FIDO95 said:

TheGreatEscape said:

I'm currently reading "Mary" by Catholic answers.
I have no problem with saying that Mary was the Mother of God. But I do not pray to dead people, even Mary that is blessed upon women and full of grace.
Great conversation all around. I would like to clarify one point however. Catholics do not "pray to dead people" either:

Matthew 22: 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." 33 And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

All of our physical bodies will die. The promise is that are souls will have eternal life with God in Heaven if we are judged to be worthy. We ask saints, souls in heaven who are very much alive, to pray for us in a similar manner that one might ask a person of this world to pray for them in a time of need.

"Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen."


Bless you, same team. I just don't think veneration is biblical. I try to show charity as much as possible.
I'm not agreeing that Catholic beliefs about Mary are not biblical, I believe they are all entirely consistent with scripture, but for the sake of this discussion, where in the Bible does it say that everything that Christians are required to believe must be in the Bible?
Faithful Ag
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Step 0: You used a whole lot of words to avoid addressing the fact that the 7 books were in fact there.

Step 1: While there is not a divinely inspired table of contents or order of books, the books that were in there were in fact already in an order that was determined by the church, guided by the Holy Spirit. Then an individual man decided to change that in a significant way while also adding his warning that these 7 books are not equal to scripture. The 7 books were in fact moved from where they historically were.

Step 2: Again, you are avoiding the fact that nothing changed in the Bible at Trent. Nothing was added, nothing was moved, nothing was taken away.

As far as anathema's are concerned, an anathema simply means cut off from the Church (an excommunication of sorts) and does not mean someone is damned. Furthermore an anathema does not apply to anyone retroactively, including the saints.

Step 3: The 7 books are gone. Period. No longer there. Vanished. Missing. Disappeared. Memory-holed.

Who decided?
When?
By what authority?


Seems like a major problem for anyone holding to a Sola Scriptura point of view.
Redstone
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AG
Here's my summary:
- https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/3166505

St. Mary is the greatest of all creatures, and all of creation, because God's physical form came from her.

She is not divine but should be venerated: the most powerful of all intercessions, close to Our Lord, the Logos Incarnate.

Blessed Virgin, pray for us!
Dies Irae
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Redstone said:

Here's my summary:
- https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/3166505

St. Mary is the greatest of all creatures, and all of creation, because God's physical form came from her.

She is not divine but should be venerated: the most powerful of all intercessions, close to Our Lord, the Logos Incarnate.

Blessed Virgin, pray for us!


My favorite poster
AgLiving06
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Dies Irae said:

AgLiving06 said:

Dies Irae said:

Why didn't you bold and highlight this portion? Are you familiar with the history of the Church and what role the councils played in the formation of Christianity?

Why don't you tell us about all the Bishops who were in favor of Arianism? There were many. Tell me about the musings of St John Chrysostom on the Jews and how St Jerome thought that Satan would be reconciled one day. There are very holy people who get things wrong, which is why we rely on the Councils and the Magisterium.

The councils of Hippo and Carthage set the canon for Christianity; this is why the "apocrypha" is included in both Orthodox and Catholic scripture. Are there levels of "God-breathed"? Do we need to revise Timothy with saying "only some scripture is profitable"?



So it's now your claim that a local council set the canon for the entire church? That may be more novel than Trent trying to set the canon itself.

The rest really just supports the Protestant view. Church history is messy and there was rarely a uniform belief. To claim some singular viewpoint as Rome forces something on the fathers that just wasn't there.


Rome was specifically mentioned as being needed to confirm the scriptural canon proceeding the Council of Carthage. This is how the Church works, not by one monk deciding to add words, or remove books on his own authority, but by the Holy Spirit working through the Apostles of Christ, and their successors the Catholic Episcopate.







And yet the Synod of Laodicea which was held prior to this council determined the Apocrypha was not part of teh canon.

Canon 60:

These are all the books of Old Testament appointed to be read: 1, Genesis of the world;
2, The Exodus from Egypt; 3, Leviticus; 4, Numbers; 5, Deuteronomy; 6, Joshua, the son of Nun; 7, Judges, Ruth; 8, Esther; 9, Of the Kings, First and Second; 10, Of the Kings, Third and Fourth; 11, Chronicles, First and Second; 12, Esdras, First and Second; 13, The Book of Psalms; 14, The Proverbs of Solomon; 15, Ecclesiastes; 16, The Song of Songs; 17, Job; 18, The Twelve Prophets; 19, Isaiah; 20, Jeremiah, and Baruch, the Lamentations, and the Epistle; 21, Ezekiel; 22, Daniel.
And these are the books of the New Testament: Four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; The Acts of the Apostles; Seven Catholic Epistles, to wit, one of James, two of Peter, three of John, one of Jude; Fourteen Epistles of Paul, one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Galatians, one to the Ephesians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Hebrews, two to Timothy, one to Titus, and one to Philemon.


So if we are going to suddenly claim the local councils are somehow dictating the doctrine of the entire church, things are going to get real interesting real quickly.

I do recall someone making the argument that the reason we shouldn't hold to councils as infallible is because they tend to contradict each other....

--------------------
So what you are asking us to do is ignore councils and prominent historical church fathers who disagree with something that not even Rome could get an actual majority for on their own vote.

That seems suspect.

AgLiving06
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Faithful Ag said:

Step 0: You used a whole lot of words to avoid addressing the fact that the 7 books were in fact there.

Step 1: While there is not a divinely inspired table of contents or order of books, the books that were in there were in fact already in an order that was determined by the church, guided by the Holy Spirit. Then an individual man decided to change that in a significant way while also adding his warning that these 7 books are not equal to scripture. The 7 books were in fact moved from where they historically were.

Step 2: Again, you are avoiding the fact that nothing changed in the Bible at Trent. Nothing was added, nothing was moved, nothing was taken away.

As far as anathema's are concerned, an anathema simply means cut off from the Church (an excommunication of sorts) and does not mean someone is damned. Furthermore an anathema does not apply to anyone retroactively, including the saints.

Step 3: The 7 books are gone. Period. No longer there. Vanished. Missing. Disappeared. Memory-holed.

Who decided?
When?
By what authority?


Seems like a major problem for anyone holding to a Sola Scriptura point of view.

Respectfully, dismissing history you don't agree with doesn't help you. Those "lots of words" provide historical context I don't think you know or want to admit to.

Step 0: you are once again being inaccurate in your description. Yes the 7 books were there, however, there was absolutely no consensus or even a majority that saw them as canon. So an accurate representation is that the 7 books were there and disputed.

Step 1: So if the claim is the order of the books is "guided by the Holy Spirit" then we can also agree that the books in the canon itself are "guided by the Holy Spirit" and so a core claim of yours against Sola Scriptura has now been resolved without the claims of needing a church authority to dictate it. I guess I'll take that win!

Step 2.: I avoided nothing and your statement is incorrect because your Step 0 is incorrect. Rome elevated the Apocrypha to a level of authority that was absolutely not a consensus. You are de factor anathematizing Jerome, Athanasius, and many others saints who did not see this. So again incorrect.

Step 3:

It's been months and I'm still anxiously awaiting your report out on the details of it! Not a problem for Sola Scriptura in the least because we hold to the historical view with these books.

Redstone
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AG
Hebrews, Revealing, excluding Enoch …. quite controversial for hundreds of years.

Was it not councils in Rome and Anatolia that decided these questions throughout the 3rd Century?
Dies Irae
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AgLiving06 said:

Dies Irae said:

AgLiving06 said:

Dies Irae said:

Why didn't you bold and highlight this portion? Are you familiar with the history of the Church and what role the councils played in the formation of Christianity?

Why don't you tell us about all the Bishops who were in favor of Arianism? There were many. Tell me about the musings of St John Chrysostom on the Jews and how St Jerome thought that Satan would be reconciled one day. There are very holy people who get things wrong, which is why we rely on the Councils and the Magisterium.

The councils of Hippo and Carthage set the canon for Christianity; this is why the "apocrypha" is included in both Orthodox and Catholic scripture. Are there levels of "God-breathed"? Do we need to revise Timothy with saying "only some scripture is profitable"?



So it's now your claim that a local council set the canon for the entire church? That may be more novel than Trent trying to set the canon itself.

The rest really just supports the Protestant view. Church history is messy and there was rarely a uniform belief. To claim some singular viewpoint as Rome forces something on the fathers that just wasn't there.


Rome was specifically mentioned as being needed to confirm the scriptural canon proceeding the Council of Carthage. This is how the Church works, not by one monk deciding to add words, or remove books on his own authority, but by the Holy Spirit working through the Apostles of Christ, and their successors the Catholic Episcopate.







And yet the Synod of Laodicea which was held prior to this council determined the Apocrypha was not part of teh canon.

Canon 60:

These are all the books of Old Testament appointed to be read: 1, Genesis of the world;
2, The Exodus from Egypt; 3, Leviticus; 4, Numbers; 5, Deuteronomy; 6, Joshua, the son of Nun; 7, Judges, Ruth; 8, Esther; 9, Of the Kings, First and Second; 10, Of the Kings, Third and Fourth; 11, Chronicles, First and Second; 12, Esdras, First and Second; 13, The Book of Psalms; 14, The Proverbs of Solomon; 15, Ecclesiastes; 16, The Song of Songs; 17, Job; 18, The Twelve Prophets; 19, Isaiah; 20, Jeremiah, and Baruch, the Lamentations, and the Epistle; 21, Ezekiel; 22, Daniel.
And these are the books of the New Testament: Four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; The Acts of the Apostles; Seven Catholic Epistles, to wit, one of James, two of Peter, three of John, one of Jude; Fourteen Epistles of Paul, one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Galatians, one to the Ephesians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Hebrews, two to Timothy, one to Titus, and one to Philemon.


So if we are going to suddenly claim the local councils are somehow dictating the doctrine of the entire church, things are going to get real interesting real quickly.

I do recall someone making the argument that the reason we shouldn't hold to councils as infallible is because they tend to contradict each other....

--------------------
So what you are asking us to do is ignore councils and prominent historical church fathers who disagree with something that not even Rome could get an actual majority for on their own vote.

That seems suspect.




We are not even certain that they discussed the canon of the Bible at the council of Laodicea, as it mainly focused on behavioral matters;. Either way you shouldn't hang your hat on this council as it was a very small regional council of about two dozen who may or may not have published a canon which excluded the book of Revelation. This was also not sent to Rome for confirmation, so was more of a Q&A forum, which is why no one talks about the council of Laodicea
Zobel
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AG
If you understand canon as the texts which a community considered authoritative - and in the Christian context, the texts which they read aloud in church - the fact that the canon varied slightly from community to community in the early church shouldn't surprise anyone. Doubly so since there was no single canon in the Jewish communities which formed the basis of the Christian scriptures in those communities. The exception to this seems to be the four gospels, which seem to be everywhere and uniform almost immediately.

A local council is affirming the canon they use. The idea of the canon being used to mark communities as the same faith is anachronistic. Communities could be marked not-Christian by the books they used (ie if they found heretical teaching authoritative), but not by books they didn't use.

Churches recognizing other churches as Christians - by being in communion with them - should tell us that these variations in canon don't signify a change in the faith.
Faithful Ag
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AgLiving06 said:

Respectfully, dismissing history you don't agree with doesn't help you. Those "lots of words" provide historical context I don't think you know or want to admit to.

Step 0: you are once again being inaccurate in your description. Yes the 7 books were there, however, there was absolutely no consensus or even a majority that saw them as canon. So an accurate representation is that the 7 books were there and disputed.
There was lots of discussions about lots of things in the early church and between church fathers. We can try to rehash who held what position (and when) all we want but it does not change the fact that the books were still there from before Jerome and all the way up to Luther. You can cling to whatever quotes you want, but the fact that the books remained there AFTER the dispute(s) means the wisdom of the church under the guidance and protection of the Holy Spirit decided they should be there.


AgLiving06 said:


Step 1: So if the claim is the order of the books is "guided by the Holy Spirit" then we can also agree that the books in the canon itself are "guided by the Holy Spirit" and so a core claim of yours against Sola Scriptura has now been resolved without the claims of needing a church authority to dictate it. I guess I'll take that win!
You have this habit of trying to rephrase people's arguments into your own words and shift the meaning of what was being said. Then you claim victory from your straw-man. Unfortunately for you, what I said was that the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, determined (confirmed) the Canon and placed the books in a specific order. As much as you would like to remove the Church and her authority from the history (like Luther) you cannot.


AgLiving06 said:


Step 2.: I avoided nothing and your statement is incorrect because your Step 0 is incorrect. Rome elevated the Apocrypha to a level of authority that was absolutely not a consensus. You are de factor anathematizing Jerome, Athanasius, and many others saints who did not see this. So again incorrect.
Athanasius died in 373 which was 20 years before Hippo & Carthage. Despite his personal opinion at the time, Jerome submitted to the authority of the Church and included the books in the Vulgate. Also, I think you missed the part about not being able to go back in time to anathematize someone. Anathemas are not retroactive.

AgLiving06 said:


Step 3:
It's been months and I'm still anxiously awaiting your report out on the details of it! Not a problem for Sola Scriptura in the least because we hold to the historical view with these books.
It is devastating to the case for Sola Scriptura because there is no one in the world that can actually provide an answer to these 3 simple questions.

Who decided to remove the 7 books?
When?
By what authority?
AgLiving06
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Dies Irae said:

AgLiving06 said:

Dies Irae said:

AgLiving06 said:

Dies Irae said:

Why didn't you bold and highlight this portion? Are you familiar with the history of the Church and what role the councils played in the formation of Christianity?

Why don't you tell us about all the Bishops who were in favor of Arianism? There were many. Tell me about the musings of St John Chrysostom on the Jews and how St Jerome thought that Satan would be reconciled one day. There are very holy people who get things wrong, which is why we rely on the Councils and the Magisterium.

The councils of Hippo and Carthage set the canon for Christianity; this is why the "apocrypha" is included in both Orthodox and Catholic scripture. Are there levels of "God-breathed"? Do we need to revise Timothy with saying "only some scripture is profitable"?



So it's now your claim that a local council set the canon for the entire church? That may be more novel than Trent trying to set the canon itself.

The rest really just supports the Protestant view. Church history is messy and there was rarely a uniform belief. To claim some singular viewpoint as Rome forces something on the fathers that just wasn't there.


Rome was specifically mentioned as being needed to confirm the scriptural canon proceeding the Council of Carthage. This is how the Church works, not by one monk deciding to add words, or remove books on his own authority, but by the Holy Spirit working through the Apostles of Christ, and their successors the Catholic Episcopate.







And yet the Synod of Laodicea which was held prior to this council determined the Apocrypha was not part of teh canon.

Canon 60:

These are all the books of Old Testament appointed to be read: 1, Genesis of the world;
2, The Exodus from Egypt; 3, Leviticus; 4, Numbers; 5, Deuteronomy; 6, Joshua, the son of Nun; 7, Judges, Ruth; 8, Esther; 9, Of the Kings, First and Second; 10, Of the Kings, Third and Fourth; 11, Chronicles, First and Second; 12, Esdras, First and Second; 13, The Book of Psalms; 14, The Proverbs of Solomon; 15, Ecclesiastes; 16, The Song of Songs; 17, Job; 18, The Twelve Prophets; 19, Isaiah; 20, Jeremiah, and Baruch, the Lamentations, and the Epistle; 21, Ezekiel; 22, Daniel.
And these are the books of the New Testament: Four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; The Acts of the Apostles; Seven Catholic Epistles, to wit, one of James, two of Peter, three of John, one of Jude; Fourteen Epistles of Paul, one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Galatians, one to the Ephesians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Hebrews, two to Timothy, one to Titus, and one to Philemon.


So if we are going to suddenly claim the local councils are somehow dictating the doctrine of the entire church, things are going to get real interesting real quickly.

I do recall someone making the argument that the reason we shouldn't hold to councils as infallible is because they tend to contradict each other....

--------------------
So what you are asking us to do is ignore councils and prominent historical church fathers who disagree with something that not even Rome could get an actual majority for on their own vote.

That seems suspect.




We are not even certain that they discussed the canon of the Bible at the council of Laodicea, as it mainly focused on behavioral matters;. Either way you shouldn't hang your hat on this council as it was a very small regional council of about two dozen who may or may not have published a canon which excluded the book of Revelation. This was also not sent to Rome for confirmation, so was more of a Q&A forum, which is why no one talks about the council of Laodicea

And it appears we have no record of the Council of Hippo except for Carthage and yet you claim that as a source. Even with Carthage, there are seeming problems with some of the text that was added.

You're taking the stance that the only councils that are valid are the ones you agree with, which as I've already shown goes in direct contrast to the beliefs of many significant church fathers, who did not attend or even seem to agree with these councils.

What is abundantly clear is that the Apocrypha was around and that they were controversial books (by definition). Some groups affirmed them in some capacity, some did not.

This is why what Rome did at Trent is novel. Instead of taking the historical view, that is well documented, that these books were disputed and many did not see them as canon, but as useful, they forced them on par.
Dies Irae
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AgLiving06 said:

Dies Irae said:

AgLiving06 said:

Dies Irae said:

AgLiving06 said:

Dies Irae said:

Why didn't you bold and highlight this portion? Are you familiar with the history of the Church and what role the councils played in the formation of Christianity?

Why don't you tell us about all the Bishops who were in favor of Arianism? There were many. Tell me about the musings of St John Chrysostom on the Jews and how St Jerome thought that Satan would be reconciled one day. There are very holy people who get things wrong, which is why we rely on the Councils and the Magisterium.

The councils of Hippo and Carthage set the canon for Christianity; this is why the "apocrypha" is included in both Orthodox and Catholic scripture. Are there levels of "God-breathed"? Do we need to revise Timothy with saying "only some scripture is profitable"?



So it's now your claim that a local council set the canon for the entire church? That may be more novel than Trent trying to set the canon itself.

The rest really just supports the Protestant view. Church history is messy and there was rarely a uniform belief. To claim some singular viewpoint as Rome forces something on the fathers that just wasn't there.


Rome was specifically mentioned as being needed to confirm the scriptural canon proceeding the Council of Carthage. This is how the Church works, not by one monk deciding to add words, or remove books on his own authority, but by the Holy Spirit working through the Apostles of Christ, and their successors the Catholic Episcopate.







And yet the Synod of Laodicea which was held prior to this council determined the Apocrypha was not part of teh canon.

Canon 60:

These are all the books of Old Testament appointed to be read: 1, Genesis of the world;
2, The Exodus from Egypt; 3, Leviticus; 4, Numbers; 5, Deuteronomy; 6, Joshua, the son of Nun; 7, Judges, Ruth; 8, Esther; 9, Of the Kings, First and Second; 10, Of the Kings, Third and Fourth; 11, Chronicles, First and Second; 12, Esdras, First and Second; 13, The Book of Psalms; 14, The Proverbs of Solomon; 15, Ecclesiastes; 16, The Song of Songs; 17, Job; 18, The Twelve Prophets; 19, Isaiah; 20, Jeremiah, and Baruch, the Lamentations, and the Epistle; 21, Ezekiel; 22, Daniel.
And these are the books of the New Testament: Four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; The Acts of the Apostles; Seven Catholic Epistles, to wit, one of James, two of Peter, three of John, one of Jude; Fourteen Epistles of Paul, one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Galatians, one to the Ephesians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Hebrews, two to Timothy, one to Titus, and one to Philemon.


So if we are going to suddenly claim the local councils are somehow dictating the doctrine of the entire church, things are going to get real interesting real quickly.

I do recall someone making the argument that the reason we shouldn't hold to councils as infallible is because they tend to contradict each other....

--------------------
So what you are asking us to do is ignore councils and prominent historical church fathers who disagree with something that not even Rome could get an actual majority for on their own vote.

That seems suspect.




We are not even certain that they discussed the canon of the Bible at the council of Laodicea, as it mainly focused on behavioral matters;. Either way you shouldn't hang your hat on this council as it was a very small regional council of about two dozen who may or may not have published a canon which excluded the book of Revelation. This was also not sent to Rome for confirmation, so was more of a Q&A forum, which is why no one talks about the council of Laodicea

And it appears we have no record of the Council of Hippo except for Carthage and yet you claim that as a source. Even with Carthage, there are seeming problems with some of the text that was added.

You're taking the stance that the only councils that are valid are the ones you agree with, which as I've already shown goes in direct contrast to the beliefs of many significant church fathers, who did not attend or even seem to agree with these councils.

What is abundantly clear is that the Apocrypha was around and that they were controversial books (by definition). Some groups affirmed them in some capacity, some did not.

This is why what Rome did at Trent is novel. Instead of taking the historical view, that is well documented, that these books were disputed and many did not see them as canon, but as useful, they forced them on par.


They had been on par for over a thousand years. They were included in Protestant bibles even after Trent and were only removed by publishers to save money on printing. Yes, it is embarrassing but you need to embrace it. You cannot argue that the so-called "apocrypha" was part of of the settled Biblical canon of all of Christianity for over 1000 years before the reformation. Your only argument is that some scripture isn't as important as other scripture. Again, is the Gospel of John more divinely inspired than Revelation? Than Acts?
Faithful Ag
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AgLiving06 said:

What is abundantly clear is that the Apocrypha was around and that they were controversial books (by definition). Some groups affirmed them in some capacity, some did not.

This is why what Rome did at Trent is novel. Instead of taking the historical view, that is well documented, that these books were disputed and many did not see them as canon, but as useful, they forced them on par.
Is what Luther did any different or less novel?

Luther, an individual man with an opinion, declared the books were not equal to scripture long before the Council of Trent, the whole Church, affirmed them as Scripture.


ETA: You say Trent forced these books to be "on par" with Scripture. Many years before Trent, Luther forced these books to be "off par". If they were disputed who is Luther to decide who is right?? By what authority?

Dies Irae
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Faithful Ag said:

AgLiving06 said:

What is abundantly clear is that the Apocrypha was around and that they were controversial books (by definition). Some groups affirmed them in some capacity, some did not.

This is why what Rome did at Trent is novel. Instead of taking the historical view, that is well documented, that these books were disputed and many did not see them as canon, but as useful, they forced them on par.
Is what Luther did any different or less novel?

Luther, an individual man with an opinion, declared the books were not equal to scripture long before the Council of Trent, the whole Church, affirmed them as Scripture.


ETA: You say Trent forced these books to be "on par" with Scripture. Many years before Trent, Luther forced these books to be "off par". If they were disputed who is Luther to decide who is right?? By what authority?




Not only that but how in the world did Trent manage to force the books into the Orthodox canon when they split more than half a millennia earlier?
Redstone
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AG
Meta issue that can't be avoided: the Bible is not the Koran. It is not the Word of God, from Him to pen directly.

This is a holy product, forged in intense arguments. Who decides? The Church.

The Word of God is Christ Incarnate, the Logos.
TheGreatEscape
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Dies Irae said:

AgLiving06 said:

Dies Irae said:

AgLiving06 said:

Dies Irae said:

AgLiving06 said:

Dies Irae said:

Why didn't you bold and highlight this portion? Are you familiar with the history of the Church and what role the councils played in the formation of Christianity?

Why don't you tell us about all the Bishops who were in favor of Arianism? There were many. Tell me about the musings of St John Chrysostom on the Jews and how St Jerome thought that Satan would be reconciled one day. There are very holy people who get things wrong, which is why we rely on the Councils and the Magisterium.

The councils of Hippo and Carthage set the canon for Christianity; this is why the "apocrypha" is included in both Orthodox and Catholic scripture. Are there levels of "God-breathed"? Do we need to revise Timothy with saying "only some scripture is profitable"?



So it's now your claim that a local council set the canon for the entire church? That may be more novel than Trent trying to set the canon itself.

The rest really just supports the Protestant view. Church history is messy and there was rarely a uniform belief. To claim some singular viewpoint as Rome forces something on the fathers that just wasn't there.


Rome was specifically mentioned as being needed to confirm the scriptural canon proceeding the Council of Carthage. This is how the Church works, not by one monk deciding to add words, or remove books on his own authority, but by the Holy Spirit working through the Apostles of Christ, and their successors the Catholic Episcopate.







And yet the Synod of Laodicea which was held prior to this council determined the Apocrypha was not part of teh canon.

Canon 60:

These are all the books of Old Testament appointed to be read: 1, Genesis of the world;
2, The Exodus from Egypt; 3, Leviticus; 4, Numbers; 5, Deuteronomy; 6, Joshua, the son of Nun; 7, Judges, Ruth; 8, Esther; 9, Of the Kings, First and Second; 10, Of the Kings, Third and Fourth; 11, Chronicles, First and Second; 12, Esdras, First and Second; 13, The Book of Psalms; 14, The Proverbs of Solomon; 15, Ecclesiastes; 16, The Song of Songs; 17, Job; 18, The Twelve Prophets; 19, Isaiah; 20, Jeremiah, and Baruch, the Lamentations, and the Epistle; 21, Ezekiel; 22, Daniel.
And these are the books of the New Testament: Four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; The Acts of the Apostles; Seven Catholic Epistles, to wit, one of James, two of Peter, three of John, one of Jude; Fourteen Epistles of Paul, one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Galatians, one to the Ephesians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Hebrews, two to Timothy, one to Titus, and one to Philemon.


So if we are going to suddenly claim the local councils are somehow dictating the doctrine of the entire church, things are going to get real interesting real quickly.

I do recall someone making the argument that the reason we shouldn't hold to councils as infallible is because they tend to contradict each other....

--------------------
So what you are asking us to do is ignore councils and prominent historical church fathers who disagree with something that not even Rome could get an actual majority for on their own vote.

That seems suspect.




We are not even certain that they discussed the canon of the Bible at the council of Laodicea, as it mainly focused on behavioral matters;. Either way you shouldn't hang your hat on this council as it was a very small regional council of about two dozen who may or may not have published a canon which excluded the book of Revelation. This was also not sent to Rome for confirmation, so was more of a Q&A forum, which is why no one talks about the council of Laodicea

And it appears we have no record of the Council of Hippo except for Carthage and yet you claim that as a source. Even with Carthage, there are seeming problems with some of the text that was added.

You're taking the stance that the only councils that are valid are the ones you agree with, which as I've already shown goes in direct contrast to the beliefs of many significant church fathers, who did not attend or even seem to agree with these councils.

What is abundantly clear is that the Apocrypha was around and that they were controversial books (by definition). Some groups affirmed them in some capacity, some did not.

This is why what Rome did at Trent is novel. Instead of taking the historical view, that is well documented, that these books were disputed and many did not see them as canon, but as useful, they forced them on par.


They had been on par for over a thousand years. They were included in Protestant bibles even after Trent and were only removed by publishers to save money on printing. Yes, it is embarrassing but you need to embrace it. You cannot argue that the so-called "apocrypha" was part of of the settled Biblical canon of all of Christianity for over 1000 years before the reformation. Your only argument is that some scripture isn't as important as other scripture. Again, is the Gospel of John more divinely inspired than Revelation? Than Acts?

I don't believe the East uses Revelation. I could be wrong…Just dropping by to say that I love everyone of you more than you love me.
AgLiving06
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What would we rehash? You've made a claim that is inaccurate to history and created a strawman of the Reformation position. You've not backed a single bit of your claims with any historical evidence, and the evidence I've provided breaks your arguments apart.

You've continuously claimed in "Step 0" that the books were there. Nobody disputes this. It's the strawman you've created. Nobody disputes the books were around. So to act as if this is some major point of disagreement is simply straw.

So the real question is not "were these books there," but "what was the view of these books during this time."

When you avoid using the strawman, the position of Rome runs into challenges because it is not the historical position to anathematize the councils and and signficant portion of the Church that did not hold these books on par with the rest of the canon. I've well documented this in the thread, so no need to rehash. It's also not disputed by any biblical historian on this subject as far as I can see. Many prominent Church Father's saw these books at good and useful, but not for doctrine or on par with the canon.

Quote:

You have this habit of trying to rephrase people's arguments into your own words and shift the meaning of what was being said. Then you claim victory from your straw-man. Unfortunately for you, what I said was that the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, determined (confirmed) the Canon and placed the books in a specific order. As much as you would like to remove the Church and her authority from the history (like Luther) you cannot.

And this does nothing to undermine my argument in the least. The Holy Spirit guided the canon as the infallible source. Easy enough. Nothing I've said undoes your argument, I simple agree that the Holy Spirit can intervene to make sure the church has an infallible source to norm all other tradition. Obviously the Holy Spirit worked through the Church.

Quote:

Athanasius died in 373 which was 20 years before Hippo & Carthage. Despite his personal opinion at the time, Jerome submitted to the authority of the Church and included the books in the Vulgate. Also, I think you missed the part about not being able to go back in time to anathematize someone. Anathemas are not retroactive.

And? Jerome literally creates the word Apocrypha so that it is clear these are disputed books.

Athanasius dying before Hippo or Carthage actually hurts Rome's argument. Think about what you're saying. A prominent Church Father says these books do not have a tradition of being on par with the rest of the OT. A small local council comes around after his death and makes a contradictory claim and we are supposed to believe what?

It confirms that when Jerome gave the books the name (Apocrypha or disputed) that it remains correct.

Which only confirms that the absolute position that Rome took at Trent is novel.

Quote:

It is devastating to the case for Sola Scriptura because there is no one in the world that can actually provide an answer to these 3 simple questions.

Not in the least and continuing to repeat something that is not relevant to the Reformers won't change my answer.
AgLiving06
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Faithful Ag said:

AgLiving06 said:

What is abundantly clear is that the Apocrypha was around and that they were controversial books (by definition). Some groups affirmed them in some capacity, some did not.

This is why what Rome did at Trent is novel. Instead of taking the historical view, that is well documented, that these books were disputed and many did not see them as canon, but as useful, they forced them on par.
Is what Luther did any different or less novel?

Luther, an individual man with an opinion, declared the books were not equal to scripture long before the Council of Trent, the whole Church, affirmed them as Scripture.


ETA: You say Trent forced these books to be "on par" with Scripture. Many years before Trent, Luther forced these books to be "off par". If they were disputed who is Luther to decide who is right?? By what authority?



You presuppose that a standard canonical order had been divinely given or even given in

That presupposition has not been proven by you or anybody else on here.

So you want to call Luther's order novel. Ok, maybe his ordering is novel vs the other orders that were used, but he did not mandate it be followed and he retained all of the books and the historical view of those books.

However, making the claim that you hold books as canon, that are historically disputed (by definition) is absolutely novel and far more destructive because of the anathemas it demanded.

AgLiving06
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Dies Irae said:

AgLiving06 said:

Dies Irae said:

AgLiving06 said:

Dies Irae said:

AgLiving06 said:

Dies Irae said:

Why didn't you bold and highlight this portion? Are you familiar with the history of the Church and what role the councils played in the formation of Christianity?

Why don't you tell us about all the Bishops who were in favor of Arianism? There were many. Tell me about the musings of St John Chrysostom on the Jews and how St Jerome thought that Satan would be reconciled one day. There are very holy people who get things wrong, which is why we rely on the Councils and the Magisterium.

The councils of Hippo and Carthage set the canon for Christianity; this is why the "apocrypha" is included in both Orthodox and Catholic scripture. Are there levels of "God-breathed"? Do we need to revise Timothy with saying "only some scripture is profitable"?



So it's now your claim that a local council set the canon for the entire church? That may be more novel than Trent trying to set the canon itself.

The rest really just supports the Protestant view. Church history is messy and there was rarely a uniform belief. To claim some singular viewpoint as Rome forces something on the fathers that just wasn't there.


Rome was specifically mentioned as being needed to confirm the scriptural canon proceeding the Council of Carthage. This is how the Church works, not by one monk deciding to add words, or remove books on his own authority, but by the Holy Spirit working through the Apostles of Christ, and their successors the Catholic Episcopate.







And yet the Synod of Laodicea which was held prior to this council determined the Apocrypha was not part of teh canon.

Canon 60:

These are all the books of Old Testament appointed to be read: 1, Genesis of the world;
2, The Exodus from Egypt; 3, Leviticus; 4, Numbers; 5, Deuteronomy; 6, Joshua, the son of Nun; 7, Judges, Ruth; 8, Esther; 9, Of the Kings, First and Second; 10, Of the Kings, Third and Fourth; 11, Chronicles, First and Second; 12, Esdras, First and Second; 13, The Book of Psalms; 14, The Proverbs of Solomon; 15, Ecclesiastes; 16, The Song of Songs; 17, Job; 18, The Twelve Prophets; 19, Isaiah; 20, Jeremiah, and Baruch, the Lamentations, and the Epistle; 21, Ezekiel; 22, Daniel.
And these are the books of the New Testament: Four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; The Acts of the Apostles; Seven Catholic Epistles, to wit, one of James, two of Peter, three of John, one of Jude; Fourteen Epistles of Paul, one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Galatians, one to the Ephesians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Hebrews, two to Timothy, one to Titus, and one to Philemon.


So if we are going to suddenly claim the local councils are somehow dictating the doctrine of the entire church, things are going to get real interesting real quickly.

I do recall someone making the argument that the reason we shouldn't hold to councils as infallible is because they tend to contradict each other....

--------------------
So what you are asking us to do is ignore councils and prominent historical church fathers who disagree with something that not even Rome could get an actual majority for on their own vote.

That seems suspect.




We are not even certain that they discussed the canon of the Bible at the council of Laodicea, as it mainly focused on behavioral matters;. Either way you shouldn't hang your hat on this council as it was a very small regional council of about two dozen who may or may not have published a canon which excluded the book of Revelation. This was also not sent to Rome for confirmation, so was more of a Q&A forum, which is why no one talks about the council of Laodicea

And it appears we have no record of the Council of Hippo except for Carthage and yet you claim that as a source. Even with Carthage, there are seeming problems with some of the text that was added.

You're taking the stance that the only councils that are valid are the ones you agree with, which as I've already shown goes in direct contrast to the beliefs of many significant church fathers, who did not attend or even seem to agree with these councils.

What is abundantly clear is that the Apocrypha was around and that they were controversial books (by definition). Some groups affirmed them in some capacity, some did not.

This is why what Rome did at Trent is novel. Instead of taking the historical view, that is well documented, that these books were disputed and many did not see them as canon, but as useful, they forced them on par.


They had been on par for over a thousand years. They were included in Protestant bibles even after Trent and were only removed by publishers to save money on printing. Yes, it is embarrassing but you need to embrace it. You cannot argue that the so-called "apocrypha" was part of of the settled Biblical canon of all of Christianity for over 1000 years before the reformation. Your only argument is that some scripture isn't as important as other scripture. Again, is the Gospel of John more divinely inspired than Revelation? Than Acts?

Yeah, Not true and of course, no support provided.

Edit...And think of what you're saying. A group, after the fact, decided that the early church got it wrong...That the earliest Fathers, and maybe the Apostles just didn't understand the proper canon, but 500+ years later, they were suddenly definitive on those books.

That's the argument you want to make?
Bob Lee
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AG
AgLiving06 said:

Dies Irae said:

AgLiving06 said:

Dies Irae said:

AgLiving06 said:

Dies Irae said:

AgLiving06 said:

Dies Irae said:

Why didn't you bold and highlight this portion? Are you familiar with the history of the Church and what role the councils played in the formation of Christianity?

Why don't you tell us about all the Bishops who were in favor of Arianism? There were many. Tell me about the musings of St John Chrysostom on the Jews and how St Jerome thought that Satan would be reconciled one day. There are very holy people who get things wrong, which is why we rely on the Councils and the Magisterium.

The councils of Hippo and Carthage set the canon for Christianity; this is why the "apocrypha" is included in both Orthodox and Catholic scripture. Are there levels of "God-breathed"? Do we need to revise Timothy with saying "only some scripture is profitable"?



So it's now your claim that a local council set the canon for the entire church? That may be more novel than Trent trying to set the canon itself.

The rest really just supports the Protestant view. Church history is messy and there was rarely a uniform belief. To claim some singular viewpoint as Rome forces something on the fathers that just wasn't there.


Rome was specifically mentioned as being needed to confirm the scriptural canon proceeding the Council of Carthage. This is how the Church works, not by one monk deciding to add words, or remove books on his own authority, but by the Holy Spirit working through the Apostles of Christ, and their successors the Catholic Episcopate.







And yet the Synod of Laodicea which was held prior to this council determined the Apocrypha was not part of teh canon.

Canon 60:

These are all the books of Old Testament appointed to be read: 1, Genesis of the world;
2, The Exodus from Egypt; 3, Leviticus; 4, Numbers; 5, Deuteronomy; 6, Joshua, the son of Nun; 7, Judges, Ruth; 8, Esther; 9, Of the Kings, First and Second; 10, Of the Kings, Third and Fourth; 11, Chronicles, First and Second; 12, Esdras, First and Second; 13, The Book of Psalms; 14, The Proverbs of Solomon; 15, Ecclesiastes; 16, The Song of Songs; 17, Job; 18, The Twelve Prophets; 19, Isaiah; 20, Jeremiah, and Baruch, the Lamentations, and the Epistle; 21, Ezekiel; 22, Daniel.
And these are the books of the New Testament: Four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; The Acts of the Apostles; Seven Catholic Epistles, to wit, one of James, two of Peter, three of John, one of Jude; Fourteen Epistles of Paul, one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Galatians, one to the Ephesians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Hebrews, two to Timothy, one to Titus, and one to Philemon.


So if we are going to suddenly claim the local councils are somehow dictating the doctrine of the entire church, things are going to get real interesting real quickly.

I do recall someone making the argument that the reason we shouldn't hold to councils as infallible is because they tend to contradict each other....

--------------------
So what you are asking us to do is ignore councils and prominent historical church fathers who disagree with something that not even Rome could get an actual majority for on their own vote.

That seems suspect.




We are not even certain that they discussed the canon of the Bible at the council of Laodicea, as it mainly focused on behavioral matters;. Either way you shouldn't hang your hat on this council as it was a very small regional council of about two dozen who may or may not have published a canon which excluded the book of Revelation. This was also not sent to Rome for confirmation, so was more of a Q&A forum, which is why no one talks about the council of Laodicea

And it appears we have no record of the Council of Hippo except for Carthage and yet you claim that as a source. Even with Carthage, there are seeming problems with some of the text that was added.

You're taking the stance that the only councils that are valid are the ones you agree with, which as I've already shown goes in direct contrast to the beliefs of many significant church fathers, who did not attend or even seem to agree with these councils.

What is abundantly clear is that the Apocrypha was around and that they were controversial books (by definition). Some groups affirmed them in some capacity, some did not.

This is why what Rome did at Trent is novel. Instead of taking the historical view, that is well documented, that these books were disputed and many did not see them as canon, but as useful, they forced them on par.


They had been on par for over a thousand years. They were included in Protestant bibles even after Trent and were only removed by publishers to save money on printing. Yes, it is embarrassing but you need to embrace it. You cannot argue that the so-called "apocrypha" was part of of the settled Biblical canon of all of Christianity for over 1000 years before the reformation. Your only argument is that some scripture isn't as important as other scripture. Again, is the Gospel of John more divinely inspired than Revelation? Than Acts?

Yeah, Not true and of course, no support provided.

Edit...And think of what you're saying. A group, after the fact, decided that the early church got it wrong...That the earliest Fathers, and maybe the Apostles just didn't understand the proper canon, but 500+ years later, they were suddenly definitive on those books.

That's the argument you want to make?


When you say the "early church". Can you define your terms? That there was disagreement between some Church fathers is not the same as saying the Church. Jerome also did not reject all of the parts of Deuterocanonical books and he included all 7 in the Vulgate because he recognized the Church's authority given to it by God to determine the canon.
CrackerJackAg
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AG
TheGreatEscape said:

Dies Irae said:

AgLiving06 said:

Dies Irae said:

AgLiving06 said:

Dies Irae said:

AgLiving06 said:

Dies Irae said:

Why didn't you bold and highlight this portion? Are you familiar with the history of the Church and what role the councils played in the formation of Christianity?

Why don't you tell us about all the Bishops who were in favor of Arianism? There were many. Tell me about the musings of St John Chrysostom on the Jews and how St Jerome thought that Satan would be reconciled one day. There are very holy people who get things wrong, which is why we rely on the Councils and the Magisterium.

The councils of Hippo and Carthage set the canon for Christianity; this is why the "apocrypha" is included in both Orthodox and Catholic scripture. Are there levels of "God-breathed"? Do we need to revise Timothy with saying "only some scripture is profitable"?



So it's now your claim that a local council set the canon for the entire church? That may be more novel than Trent trying to set the canon itself.

The rest really just supports the Protestant view. Church history is messy and there was rarely a uniform belief. To claim some singular viewpoint as Rome forces something on the fathers that just wasn't there.


Rome was specifically mentioned as being needed to confirm the scriptural canon proceeding the Council of Carthage. This is how the Church works, not by one monk deciding to add words, or remove books on his own authority, but by the Holy Spirit working through the Apostles of Christ, and their successors the Catholic Episcopate.







And yet the Synod of Laodicea which was held prior to this council determined the Apocrypha was not part of teh canon.

Canon 60:

These are all the books of Old Testament appointed to be read: 1, Genesis of the world;
2, The Exodus from Egypt; 3, Leviticus; 4, Numbers; 5, Deuteronomy; 6, Joshua, the son of Nun; 7, Judges, Ruth; 8, Esther; 9, Of the Kings, First and Second; 10, Of the Kings, Third and Fourth; 11, Chronicles, First and Second; 12, Esdras, First and Second; 13, The Book of Psalms; 14, The Proverbs of Solomon; 15, Ecclesiastes; 16, The Song of Songs; 17, Job; 18, The Twelve Prophets; 19, Isaiah; 20, Jeremiah, and Baruch, the Lamentations, and the Epistle; 21, Ezekiel; 22, Daniel.
And these are the books of the New Testament: Four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; The Acts of the Apostles; Seven Catholic Epistles, to wit, one of James, two of Peter, three of John, one of Jude; Fourteen Epistles of Paul, one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Galatians, one to the Ephesians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Hebrews, two to Timothy, one to Titus, and one to Philemon.


So if we are going to suddenly claim the local councils are somehow dictating the doctrine of the entire church, things are going to get real interesting real quickly.

I do recall someone making the argument that the reason we shouldn't hold to councils as infallible is because they tend to contradict each other....

--------------------
So what you are asking us to do is ignore councils and prominent historical church fathers who disagree with something that not even Rome could get an actual majority for on their own vote.

That seems suspect.




We are not even certain that they discussed the canon of the Bible at the council of Laodicea, as it mainly focused on behavioral matters;. Either way you shouldn't hang your hat on this council as it was a very small regional council of about two dozen who may or may not have published a canon which excluded the book of Revelation. This was also not sent to Rome for confirmation, so was more of a Q&A forum, which is why no one talks about the council of Laodicea

And it appears we have no record of the Council of Hippo except for Carthage and yet you claim that as a source. Even with Carthage, there are seeming problems with some of the text that was added.

You're taking the stance that the only councils that are valid are the ones you agree with, which as I've already shown goes in direct contrast to the beliefs of many significant church fathers, who did not attend or even seem to agree with these councils.

What is abundantly clear is that the Apocrypha was around and that they were controversial books (by definition). Some groups affirmed them in some capacity, some did not.

This is why what Rome did at Trent is novel. Instead of taking the historical view, that is well documented, that these books were disputed and many did not see them as canon, but as useful, they forced them on par.


They had been on par for over a thousand years. They were included in Protestant bibles even after Trent and were only removed by publishers to save money on printing. Yes, it is embarrassing but you need to embrace it. You cannot argue that the so-called "apocrypha" was part of of the settled Biblical canon of all of Christianity for over 1000 years before the reformation. Your only argument is that some scripture isn't as important as other scripture. Again, is the Gospel of John more divinely inspired than Revelation? Than Acts?

I don't believe the East uses Revelation. I could be wrong…Just dropping by to say that I love everyone of you more than you love me.


Revelations is part of the canon/Bible for the Orthodox Church. As you can see in the Protestant world it is so misunderstood that we don't read it during service.
Dies Irae
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AgLiving06 said:

Dies Irae said:

AgLiving06 said:

Dies Irae said:

AgLiving06 said:

Dies Irae said:

AgLiving06 said:

Dies Irae said:

Why didn't you bold and highlight this portion? Are you familiar with the history of the Church and what role the councils played in the formation of Christianity?

Why don't you tell us about all the Bishops who were in favor of Arianism? There were many. Tell me about the musings of St John Chrysostom on the Jews and how St Jerome thought that Satan would be reconciled one day. There are very holy people who get things wrong, which is why we rely on the Councils and the Magisterium.

The councils of Hippo and Carthage set the canon for Christianity; this is why the "apocrypha" is included in both Orthodox and Catholic scripture. Are there levels of "God-breathed"? Do we need to revise Timothy with saying "only some scripture is profitable"?



So it's now your claim that a local council set the canon for the entire church? That may be more novel than Trent trying to set the canon itself.

The rest really just supports the Protestant view. Church history is messy and there was rarely a uniform belief. To claim some singular viewpoint as Rome forces something on the fathers that just wasn't there.


Rome was specifically mentioned as being needed to confirm the scriptural canon proceeding the Council of Carthage. This is how the Church works, not by one monk deciding to add words, or remove books on his own authority, but by the Holy Spirit working through the Apostles of Christ, and their successors the Catholic Episcopate.







And yet the Synod of Laodicea which was held prior to this council determined the Apocrypha was not part of teh canon.

Canon 60:

These are all the books of Old Testament appointed to be read: 1, Genesis of the world;
2, The Exodus from Egypt; 3, Leviticus; 4, Numbers; 5, Deuteronomy; 6, Joshua, the son of Nun; 7, Judges, Ruth; 8, Esther; 9, Of the Kings, First and Second; 10, Of the Kings, Third and Fourth; 11, Chronicles, First and Second; 12, Esdras, First and Second; 13, The Book of Psalms; 14, The Proverbs of Solomon; 15, Ecclesiastes; 16, The Song of Songs; 17, Job; 18, The Twelve Prophets; 19, Isaiah; 20, Jeremiah, and Baruch, the Lamentations, and the Epistle; 21, Ezekiel; 22, Daniel.
And these are the books of the New Testament: Four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; The Acts of the Apostles; Seven Catholic Epistles, to wit, one of James, two of Peter, three of John, one of Jude; Fourteen Epistles of Paul, one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Galatians, one to the Ephesians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Hebrews, two to Timothy, one to Titus, and one to Philemon.


So if we are going to suddenly claim the local councils are somehow dictating the doctrine of the entire church, things are going to get real interesting real quickly.

I do recall someone making the argument that the reason we shouldn't hold to councils as infallible is because they tend to contradict each other....

--------------------
So what you are asking us to do is ignore councils and prominent historical church fathers who disagree with something that not even Rome could get an actual majority for on their own vote.

That seems suspect.




We are not even certain that they discussed the canon of the Bible at the council of Laodicea, as it mainly focused on behavioral matters;. Either way you shouldn't hang your hat on this council as it was a very small regional council of about two dozen who may or may not have published a canon which excluded the book of Revelation. This was also not sent to Rome for confirmation, so was more of a Q&A forum, which is why no one talks about the council of Laodicea

And it appears we have no record of the Council of Hippo except for Carthage and yet you claim that as a source. Even with Carthage, there are seeming problems with some of the text that was added.

You're taking the stance that the only councils that are valid are the ones you agree with, which as I've already shown goes in direct contrast to the beliefs of many significant church fathers, who did not attend or even seem to agree with these councils.

What is abundantly clear is that the Apocrypha was around and that they were controversial books (by definition). Some groups affirmed them in some capacity, some did not.

This is why what Rome did at Trent is novel. Instead of taking the historical view, that is well documented, that these books were disputed and many did not see them as canon, but as useful, they forced them on par.


They had been on par for over a thousand years. They were included in Protestant bibles even after Trent and were only removed by publishers to save money on printing. Yes, it is embarrassing but you need to embrace it. You cannot argue that the so-called "apocrypha" was part of of the settled Biblical canon of all of Christianity for over 1000 years before the reformation. Your only argument is that some scripture isn't as important as other scripture. Again, is the Gospel of John more divinely inspired than Revelation? Than Acts?

Yeah, Not true and of course, no support provided.

Edit...And think of what you're saying. A group, after the fact, decided that the early church got it wrong...That the earliest Fathers, and maybe the Apostles just didn't understand the proper canon, but 500+ years later, they were suddenly definitive on those books.

That's the argument you want to make?


No support provided? Are the books part of the Orthodox Bible? how did they get there? Were the books part of the Protestant bible? When were they taken out?

Your argument is that these books were not considered Biblical canon until the council of Trent. There are mountains of evidence to prove otherwise. If the early church didn't consider these biblical canon, why are they in everyone's Bible 1,000 years + before Trent?

Why were they removed from Protestant bibles AFTER Trent?
Faithful Ag
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AgLiving06 said:

You've not backed a single bit of your claims with any historical evidence, and the evidence I've provided breaks your arguments apart.
the historical evidence supporting my claim is what you stated directly below. The Books were there. Whatever disputes between individual church fathers or Bishops there may have been early on, the Church left the books there, and in fact insisted they remain there to which Jerome submitted.

AgLiving06 said:

You've continuously claimed in "Step 0" that the books were there. Nobody disputes this. It's the strawman you've created. Nobody disputes the books were around. So to act as if this is some major point of disagreement is simply straw.

So the real question is not "were these books there," but "what was the view of these books during this time."

Many prominent Church Father's saw these books at good and useful, but not for doctrine or on par with the canon.
what do you do with the more than 1,000 years between "this time" and Luther? The church kept them in and used them with numerous cross-references in the NT citing these books. I am consistently relying on what the Church did following the dispute vs. trying to interpolate what they were really thinking but chose not to clarify for those thousand plus years. The books were used to confirm and support NT scripture and church doctrine.

AgLiving06 said:

Faithful Ag said:


You have this habit of trying to rephrase people's arguments into your own words and shift the meaning of what was being said. Then you claim victory from your straw-man. Unfortunately for you, what I said was that the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, determined (confirmed) the Canon and placed the books in a specific order. As much as you would like to remove the Church and her authority from the history (like Luther) you cannot.
And this does nothing to undermine my argument in the least. The Holy Spirit guided the canon as the infallible source. Easy enough. Nothing I've said undoes your argument, I simple agree that the Holy Spirit can intervene to make sure the church has an infallible source to norm all other tradition. Obviously the Holy Spirit worked through the Church.
You are still saying something different here. The Holy Spirit guided the Church. The infallible source is the Holy Spirit which guides and protects the church infallibly. Through this Church (Bishops), and as a part of her Sacred Tradition, we have received the Scriptures and we can have confidence in their reliability and accuracy. In order for the Scriptures to hold and maintain their place as an infallible source you must have the correct books AND an infallible interpretation. The only way this can happen is through the church which objectively kept the books there.

AgLiving06 said:


And? Jerome literally creates the word Apocrypha so that it is clear these are disputed books.

Athanasius dying before Hippo or Carthage actually hurts Rome's argument. Think about what you're saying. A prominent Church Father says these books do not have a tradition of being on par with the rest of the OT. A small local council comes around after his death and makes a contradictory claim and we are supposed to believe what?
We are supposed to believe and follow the church discerns through her Bishops, the magesterium vs. cherry picking what quotes or positions we can cobble together pitting church fathers against each other.

AgLiving06 said:

It confirms that when Jerome gave the books the name (Apocrypha or disputed) that it remains correct.

Which only confirms that the absolute position that Rome took at Trent is novel.
Jerome may have given the books the name Apocrypha, but he submitted to the wisdom and discernment of the Church.

You keep saying the position Rome took is novel, but you fail to acknowledge the Luther acted first. For the sake of argument let's say we agree the books were "disputed" - who resolved the dispute and when? Are you taking the position that Athanasius resolved the dispute, or maybe Jerome? If not who and when? Luther? Is this dispute something any individual man can resolve?

That's kind of the point I've been trying to articulate, let's just go with the books were under a cloud of dispute for 1,000+ years (which means some held them as Scripture and some not as Scripture). Who has the authority to declare who is right and who is wrong? You are choosing Luther who declared them not scripture in the 1530s, and I am choosing the Church who later affirmed them in response. One of these made material changes to support their view (Luther) while the other made no material changes (the Church).

This is how the church works. While there may have been some wiggle room on these 7 books for more than 1,000 years prior to Luther's actions, the Reformation forced the church to react and formally define her position.
Faithful Ag
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AgLiving06 said:

You presuppose that a standard canonical order had been divinely given or even given in

That presupposition has not been proven by you or anybody else on here.
No. I presuppose nothing. The facts are simple. Luther decided to make changes to what he had received through the Church because Luther thought he knew better than the collective church. You do not deny these facts, you just want to justify his reasoning and justify his position. My question is where did Luther derive the authority to do what he did? Jerome did not claim this type of authority, but somehow Luther knew more or had a better view of the "historical view" some 1200 years later?

AgLiving06 said:

So you want to call Luther's order novel. Ok, maybe his ordering is novel vs the other orders that were used, but he did not mandate it be followed and he retained all of the books and the historical view of those books.

However, making the claim that you hold books as canon, that are historically disputed (by definition) is absolutely novel and far more destructive because of the anathemas it demanded.
How could Luther have mandated his order be followed? It's almost comical to compare Luther, an individual man, to the collective Church and her Bishops. The whole point is that Luther had NO AUTHORITY to do what he did. That authority was placed with the Church and her Bishops, which was forced to make a declarative decision because of the confusion Luther introduced (or re-introduced if you will).
bigcat22
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AG
The below is a good discussion on the Protestant view of much of the topics discussed in this thread. Video is about an hour long.

Edit to say I'm bad at posting links and that the video doesn't so much talk about Mary, but authority, justification, canon, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/live/inIIadwXAUk
Faithful Ag
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Thanks for sharing. I like Dr. Ortland a lot. He is very sincere and charitable. I look forward to listening to this
AgLiving06
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Bob Lee said:

AgLiving06 said:

Dies Irae said:

AgLiving06 said:

Dies Irae said:

AgLiving06 said:

Dies Irae said:

AgLiving06 said:

Dies Irae said:

Why didn't you bold and highlight this portion? Are you familiar with the history of the Church and what role the councils played in the formation of Christianity?

Why don't you tell us about all the Bishops who were in favor of Arianism? There were many. Tell me about the musings of St John Chrysostom on the Jews and how St Jerome thought that Satan would be reconciled one day. There are very holy people who get things wrong, which is why we rely on the Councils and the Magisterium.

The councils of Hippo and Carthage set the canon for Christianity; this is why the "apocrypha" is included in both Orthodox and Catholic scripture. Are there levels of "God-breathed"? Do we need to revise Timothy with saying "only some scripture is profitable"?



So it's now your claim that a local council set the canon for the entire church? That may be more novel than Trent trying to set the canon itself.

The rest really just supports the Protestant view. Church history is messy and there was rarely a uniform belief. To claim some singular viewpoint as Rome forces something on the fathers that just wasn't there.


Rome was specifically mentioned as being needed to confirm the scriptural canon proceeding the Council of Carthage. This is how the Church works, not by one monk deciding to add words, or remove books on his own authority, but by the Holy Spirit working through the Apostles of Christ, and their successors the Catholic Episcopate.







And yet the Synod of Laodicea which was held prior to this council determined the Apocrypha was not part of teh canon.

Canon 60:

These are all the books of Old Testament appointed to be read: 1, Genesis of the world;
2, The Exodus from Egypt; 3, Leviticus; 4, Numbers; 5, Deuteronomy; 6, Joshua, the son of Nun; 7, Judges, Ruth; 8, Esther; 9, Of the Kings, First and Second; 10, Of the Kings, Third and Fourth; 11, Chronicles, First and Second; 12, Esdras, First and Second; 13, The Book of Psalms; 14, The Proverbs of Solomon; 15, Ecclesiastes; 16, The Song of Songs; 17, Job; 18, The Twelve Prophets; 19, Isaiah; 20, Jeremiah, and Baruch, the Lamentations, and the Epistle; 21, Ezekiel; 22, Daniel.
And these are the books of the New Testament: Four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; The Acts of the Apostles; Seven Catholic Epistles, to wit, one of James, two of Peter, three of John, one of Jude; Fourteen Epistles of Paul, one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Galatians, one to the Ephesians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Hebrews, two to Timothy, one to Titus, and one to Philemon.


So if we are going to suddenly claim the local councils are somehow dictating the doctrine of the entire church, things are going to get real interesting real quickly.

I do recall someone making the argument that the reason we shouldn't hold to councils as infallible is because they tend to contradict each other....

--------------------
So what you are asking us to do is ignore councils and prominent historical church fathers who disagree with something that not even Rome could get an actual majority for on their own vote.

That seems suspect.




We are not even certain that they discussed the canon of the Bible at the council of Laodicea, as it mainly focused on behavioral matters;. Either way you shouldn't hang your hat on this council as it was a very small regional council of about two dozen who may or may not have published a canon which excluded the book of Revelation. This was also not sent to Rome for confirmation, so was more of a Q&A forum, which is why no one talks about the council of Laodicea

And it appears we have no record of the Council of Hippo except for Carthage and yet you claim that as a source. Even with Carthage, there are seeming problems with some of the text that was added.

You're taking the stance that the only councils that are valid are the ones you agree with, which as I've already shown goes in direct contrast to the beliefs of many significant church fathers, who did not attend or even seem to agree with these councils.

What is abundantly clear is that the Apocrypha was around and that they were controversial books (by definition). Some groups affirmed them in some capacity, some did not.

This is why what Rome did at Trent is novel. Instead of taking the historical view, that is well documented, that these books were disputed and many did not see them as canon, but as useful, they forced them on par.


They had been on par for over a thousand years. They were included in Protestant bibles even after Trent and were only removed by publishers to save money on printing. Yes, it is embarrassing but you need to embrace it. You cannot argue that the so-called "apocrypha" was part of of the settled Biblical canon of all of Christianity for over 1000 years before the reformation. Your only argument is that some scripture isn't as important as other scripture. Again, is the Gospel of John more divinely inspired than Revelation? Than Acts?

Yeah, Not true and of course, no support provided.

Edit...And think of what you're saying. A group, after the fact, decided that the early church got it wrong...That the earliest Fathers, and maybe the Apostles just didn't understand the proper canon, but 500+ years later, they were suddenly definitive on those books.

That's the argument you want to make?


When you say the "early church". Can you define your terms? That there was disagreement between some Church fathers is not the same as saying the Church. Jerome also did not reject all of the parts of Deuterocanonical books and he included all 7 in the Vulgate because he recognized the Church's authority given to it by God to determine the canon.

I provided a pretty large response on the disagreement earlier in this thread. That would be a good starting point. But really a quick google search shows just how mixed the response was towards these books.

And as with Faithful Ag, the question is not whether they were included or not, but as to their status and Jerome gave them the name Apocrypha because they were disputed texts.

Dies Irae
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AgLiving06 said:

Bob Lee said:

AgLiving06 said:

Dies Irae said:

AgLiving06 said:

Dies Irae said:

AgLiving06 said:

Dies Irae said:

AgLiving06 said:

Dies Irae said:

Why didn't you bold and highlight this portion? Are you familiar with the history of the Church and what role the councils played in the formation of Christianity?

Why don't you tell us about all the Bishops who were in favor of Arianism? There were many. Tell me about the musings of St John Chrysostom on the Jews and how St Jerome thought that Satan would be reconciled one day. There are very holy people who get things wrong, which is why we rely on the Councils and the Magisterium.

The councils of Hippo and Carthage set the canon for Christianity; this is why the "apocrypha" is included in both Orthodox and Catholic scripture. Are there levels of "God-breathed"? Do we need to revise Timothy with saying "only some scripture is profitable"?



So it's now your claim that a local council set the canon for the entire church? That may be more novel than Trent trying to set the canon itself.

The rest really just supports the Protestant view. Church history is messy and there was rarely a uniform belief. To claim some singular viewpoint as Rome forces something on the fathers that just wasn't there.


Rome was specifically mentioned as being needed to confirm the scriptural canon proceeding the Council of Carthage. This is how the Church works, not by one monk deciding to add words, or remove books on his own authority, but by the Holy Spirit working through the Apostles of Christ, and their successors the Catholic Episcopate.







And yet the Synod of Laodicea which was held prior to this council determined the Apocrypha was not part of teh canon.

Canon 60:

These are all the books of Old Testament appointed to be read: 1, Genesis of the world;
2, The Exodus from Egypt; 3, Leviticus; 4, Numbers; 5, Deuteronomy; 6, Joshua, the son of Nun; 7, Judges, Ruth; 8, Esther; 9, Of the Kings, First and Second; 10, Of the Kings, Third and Fourth; 11, Chronicles, First and Second; 12, Esdras, First and Second; 13, The Book of Psalms; 14, The Proverbs of Solomon; 15, Ecclesiastes; 16, The Song of Songs; 17, Job; 18, The Twelve Prophets; 19, Isaiah; 20, Jeremiah, and Baruch, the Lamentations, and the Epistle; 21, Ezekiel; 22, Daniel.
And these are the books of the New Testament: Four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; The Acts of the Apostles; Seven Catholic Epistles, to wit, one of James, two of Peter, three of John, one of Jude; Fourteen Epistles of Paul, one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Galatians, one to the Ephesians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Hebrews, two to Timothy, one to Titus, and one to Philemon.


So if we are going to suddenly claim the local councils are somehow dictating the doctrine of the entire church, things are going to get real interesting real quickly.

I do recall someone making the argument that the reason we shouldn't hold to councils as infallible is because they tend to contradict each other....

--------------------
So what you are asking us to do is ignore councils and prominent historical church fathers who disagree with something that not even Rome could get an actual majority for on their own vote.

That seems suspect.




We are not even certain that they discussed the canon of the Bible at the council of Laodicea, as it mainly focused on behavioral matters;. Either way you shouldn't hang your hat on this council as it was a very small regional council of about two dozen who may or may not have published a canon which excluded the book of Revelation. This was also not sent to Rome for confirmation, so was more of a Q&A forum, which is why no one talks about the council of Laodicea

And it appears we have no record of the Council of Hippo except for Carthage and yet you claim that as a source. Even with Carthage, there are seeming problems with some of the text that was added.

You're taking the stance that the only councils that are valid are the ones you agree with, which as I've already shown goes in direct contrast to the beliefs of many significant church fathers, who did not attend or even seem to agree with these councils.

What is abundantly clear is that the Apocrypha was around and that they were controversial books (by definition). Some groups affirmed them in some capacity, some did not.

This is why what Rome did at Trent is novel. Instead of taking the historical view, that is well documented, that these books were disputed and many did not see them as canon, but as useful, they forced them on par.


They had been on par for over a thousand years. They were included in Protestant bibles even after Trent and were only removed by publishers to save money on printing. Yes, it is embarrassing but you need to embrace it. You cannot argue that the so-called "apocrypha" was part of of the settled Biblical canon of all of Christianity for over 1000 years before the reformation. Your only argument is that some scripture isn't as important as other scripture. Again, is the Gospel of John more divinely inspired than Revelation? Than Acts?

Yeah, Not true and of course, no support provided.

Edit...And think of what you're saying. A group, after the fact, decided that the early church got it wrong...That the earliest Fathers, and maybe the Apostles just didn't understand the proper canon, but 500+ years later, they were suddenly definitive on those books.

That's the argument you want to make?


When you say the "early church". Can you define your terms? That there was disagreement between some Church fathers is not the same as saying the Church. Jerome also did not reject all of the parts of Deuterocanonical books and he included all 7 in the Vulgate because he recognized the Church's authority given to it by God to determine the canon.

I provided a pretty large response on the disagreement earlier in this thread. That would be a good starting point. But really a quick google search shows just how mixed the response was towards these books.

And as with Faithful Ag, the question is not whether they were included or not, but as to their status and Jerome gave them the name Apocrypha because they were disputed texts.




Were only certain parts of the Bible "God-breathed"?.
 
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