Question on Mary

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Legal Custodian
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7:59p, 8/10/23
AG
Can someone explain to me the Catholic or Orthodox view on why Mary is venerated as she is? I (Protestant) definitely view Mary as a beloved mother and fellow believer, but I just don't understand the almost worship she gets.

Is there something in the Apocrypha that's not in the 66?

I just don't get how they can view Immaculate Conception, Assumption, and Perpetual virginity as biblical.

And I am truly sincere in my question in search of the logic or evidence based in the Bible.

Thank you.
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jonb02
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8:55p, 8/10/23
AG
John 19:26-27

26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
[url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2019&version=KJV][/url]



How do you interpret Jesus' last orders from the cross? These were nearly his last words.
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Zobel
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In reply to Legal Custodian • 9:01p, 8/10/23
AG
This is kind of asking for a book, but the orthodox and RCC views differ on 2/3 things you asked about.

However one biblical basis for the perpetual virginity is understanding Ezekiel's vision of the temple as the incarnation, and the gate from the east is the Theotokos.
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Bob Lee
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9:12p, 8/10/23
AG
Read
Luke 1:26-56
The Gospel of James
St. Jerome's reply to Helvidius
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TheGreatEscape
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9:18p, 8/10/23
I'm currently reading "Mary" by Catholic answers.
I have no problem with saying that Mary was the Mother of God. But I do not pray to dead people, even Mary that is blessed among women and full of grace.
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jrico2727
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9:27p, 8/10/23
AG
I am currently sitting at what could potentially be my mother's death bed. Earlier we prayed the Divine Mercy Chaplet together. In one of her more coherent moments she looked at me and smiled. We told one another that we loved each other. Then I asked if she'd pray for me when she makes it to heaven. She of course she would. I will venerate my mother for the rest of my life. Why would I do less for the Mother of my Lord and my God?
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Aztec1948
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9:32p, 8/10/23
Many think Marism had its roots in other religious sects... pagan godess worship. It was simply adopted over to Catholicism. Many other items related to Catholicism followed similar paths.

  • The Catholic rite of Holy Communion parallels pre-Christian Greco-Roman and Egyptian rituals that involved eating the body and blood of a god.
  • A number of Catholic holidays and myths, such as Christmas, Easter, and Mardi Gras, graph onto the timeline of pre-Christian fertility festivals.
  • The Catholic practice of praying to saints has been called "de-facto idolatry" and even a relic of goddess worship.

A link to other related items:

https://bigthink.com/the-present/pagan-roots-of-catholicism/
"I have been told that we have recovered technology that did not originate on this".-Former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence-Chris Mellon

“Behind the scenes, high-ranking Air Force officers are soberly concerned about UFOs. But through official secrecy and ridicule, many citizens are led to believe that unknown flying objects are nonsense.” Former CIA Director, Roscoe Hillenkoetter, public statement, 1960.
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TheGreatEscape
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9:42p, 8/10/23
I just don't see Mary resurrected in bodily form before any of the saints. Nor do I believe the perpetual virginity as a big deal on either side of the argument.

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Faithful Ag
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In reply to jrico2727 • 9:44p, 8/10/23
jrico2727 said:
I am currently sitting at what could potentially be my mother's death bed. Earlier we prayed the Divine Mercy Chaplet together. In one of her more coherent moments she looked at me and smiled. We told one another that we loved each other. Then I asked if she'd pray for me when she makes it to heaven. She of course she would. I will venerate my mother for the rest of my life. Why would I do less for the Mother of my Lord and my God?

Prayers for you and your family and your mother, jrico.

When my grandmother passed away our entire family was gathered in her hospital room holding hands in a circle around her praying like we always did in her kitchen. We prayed an Our Father followed by several Hail Mary's and in that moment she knew it was okay to let go of this world. It was one of the most powerful and beautiful moments in my life. I pray for a similar peace for you and your family should God call your mother home.

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
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TheGreatEscape
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10:04p, 8/10/23
I don't see the equation of Jesus being the exception of being born without sin and the jump to Mary not being born with sin or without a sinful nature.

Since there are exemptions, the RCC argues, then Mary is also an exception.
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Faithful Ag
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In reply to Legal Custodian • 10:29p, 8/10/23
Legal Custodian said:
Can someone explain to me the Catholic or Orthodox view on why Mary is venerated as she is? I (Protestant) definitely view Mary as a beloved mother and fellow believer, but I just don't understand the almost worship she gets.

Is there something in the Apocrypha that's not in the 66?

I just don't get how they can view Immaculate Conception, Assumption, and Perpetual virginity as biblical.

And I am truly sincere in my question in search of the logic or evidence based in the Bible.

Thank you.
I would start with your viewing Mary as just A beloved motheror just a fellow believer. Mary was the bearer of God Incarnate. In her womb she contained her uncontainable creator. Mary was not just a beloved mother or a fellow believer. She was set a part and chosen by God to bear God. The Theotokos.

Mary is the tabernacle of God. She is the Arc of the New Covenant, and the literal dwelling place of God on earth. The Holy of Holies. Mary is the New Eve, and the Queen Mother. She is the Woman of Genesis 3:15, the wedding at Cana, the foot of the cross, and crowned in Revelation. Mary was the first Christian and the mother of all Christians. There is nothing ordinary about our Blessed Mother.

Everything we believe about Mary has everything to do with what we believe about Jesus Christ. It is through Mary that Christ became man. Understanding Mary brings us closer to Christ. Mary was human. She is not God and we do not worship Mary. Jesus was fully man because of Mary and at the same time he was fully God. Reflecting on who Mary is helps us grow closer to Jesus.
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TheGreatEscape
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In reply to Faithful Ag • 10:31p, 8/10/23
Faithful Ag said:
Legal Custodian said:
Can someone explain to me the Catholic or Orthodox view on why Mary is venerated as she is? I (Protestant) definitely view Mary as a beloved mother and fellow believer, but I just don't understand the almost worship she gets.

Is there something in the Apocrypha that's not in the 66?

I just don't get how they can view Immaculate Conception, Assumption, and Perpetual virginity as biblical.

And I am truly sincere in my question in search of the logic or evidence based in the Bible.

Thank you.
I would start with your viewing Mary as just A beloved motheror just a fellow believer. Mary was the bearer of God Incarnate. In her womb she contained her uncontainable creator. Mary was not just a beloved mother or a fellow believer. She was set a part and chosen by God to bear God. The Theotokos.

Mary is the tabernacle of God. She is the Arc of the New Covenant, and the literal dwelling place of God on earth. The Holy of Holies. Mary is the New Eve, and the Queen Mother. She is the Woman of Genesis 3:15, the wedding at Cana, the foot of the cross, and crowned in Revelation. Mary was the first Christian and the mother of all Christians. There is nothing ordinary about our Blessed Mother.

Everything we believe about Mary has everything to do with what we believe about Jesus Christ. It is through Mary that Christ became man. Understanding Mary brings us closer to Christ. Mary was human. She is not God and we do not worship Mary. Jesus was fully man because of Mary and at the same time he was fully God. Reflecting on who Mary is helps us grow closer to Jesus.


That's a good summary of the eighty pages I just read through.
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jonb02
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In reply to Faithful Ag • 11:40p, 8/10/23
AG
Faithful Ag said:
Legal Custodian said:
Can someone explain to me the Catholic or Orthodox view on why Mary is venerated as she is? I (Protestant) definitely view Mary as a beloved mother and fellow believer, but I just don't understand the almost worship she gets.

Is there something in the Apocrypha that's not in the 66?

I just don't get how they can view Immaculate Conception, Assumption, and Perpetual virginity as biblical.

And I am truly sincere in my question in search of the logic or evidence based in the Bible.

Thank you.
I would start with your viewing Mary as just A beloved motheror just a fellow believer. Mary was the bearer of God Incarnate. In her womb she contained her uncontainable creator. Mary was not just a beloved mother or a fellow believer. She was set a part and chosen by God to bear God. The Theotokos.

Mary is the tabernacle of God. She is the Arc of the New Covenant, and the literal dwelling place of God on earth. The Holy of Holies. Mary is the New Eve, and the Queen Mother. She is the Woman of Genesis 3:15, the wedding at Cana, the foot of the cross, and crowned in Revelation. Mary was the first Christian and the mother of all Christians. There is nothing ordinary about our Blessed Mother.

Everything we believe about Mary has everything to do with what we believe about Jesus Christ. It is through Mary that Christ became man. Understanding Mary brings us closer to Christ. Mary was human. She is not God and we do not worship Mary. Jesus was fully man because of Mary and at the same time he was fully God. Reflecting on who Mary is helps us grow closer to Jesus.
Powerful words, you made me choke up. Good job.
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bpchas2
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5:46p, 8/11/23
Because Catholics do not believe in the sufficiency of Christ. As Paul wrote to Timothy, "For there is one God and ONE mediator between God and mankind, the man Jesus Christ." All of the ex biblical "traditions" illustrate that.
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Faithful Ag
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In reply to bpchas2 • 6:31p, 8/11/23
bpchas2 said:
Because Catholics do not believe in the sufficiency of Christ. As Paul wrote to Timothy, "For there is one God and ONE mediator between God and mankind, the man Jesus Christ." All of the ex biblical "traditions" illustrate that.

Our views on Mary do not take anything away from the sufficiency of Christ. What we believe about Mary and who she is is supported by Scripture, and by Sacred Tradition, and by the Apostolic Church, and by all of the actual Protestant reformers.

Interestingly, the Blessed Virgin Mary was quite literally THE mediator between God and mankind. It was through Mary that God took flesh and became man. Inside her womb she contained God.
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Dies Irae
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In reply to bpchas2 • 7:16p, 8/11/23
bpchas2 said:
Because Catholics do not believe in the sufficiency of Christ. As Paul wrote to Timothy, "For there is one God and ONE mediator between God and mankind, the man Jesus Christ." All of the ex biblical "traditions" illustrate that.


We've got a Protestant with new arguments folks
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Aztec1948
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7:19p, 8/11/23
Some believe she may have been artificially inseminated. I've yet to see any data supporting that, but it would make sense.
"I have been told that we have recovered technology that did not originate on this".-Former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence-Chris Mellon

“Behind the scenes, high-ranking Air Force officers are soberly concerned about UFOs. But through official secrecy and ridicule, many citizens are led to believe that unknown flying objects are nonsense.” Former CIA Director, Roscoe Hillenkoetter, public statement, 1960.
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Dies Irae
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In reply to Aztec1948 • 7:28p, 8/11/23
Aztec1948 said:
Some believe she may have been artificially inseminated. I've yet to see any data supporting that, but it would make sense.


I would think long and hard about scoring clout off of the Mother of God for internet clout. The risk/reward calculus has to be off the charts.
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Aztec1948
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In reply to Dies Irae • 7:30p, 8/11/23
Dies Irae said:
Aztec1948 said:
Some believe she may have been artificially inseminated. I've yet to see any data supporting that, but it would make sense.


I would think long and hard about scoring clout off of the Mother of God for internet clout. The risk/reward calculus has to be off the charts.
Thats exactly how "they" operate. Fear and intimidation. Religions are control mechanisms of humanity. I wish it wasn't true...but it is. As far as Mary being devine etc. ....you've been deceived here. There is much in the catholic sect that went astray. Yes, she was the mother of Jesus. Nothing more.
"I have been told that we have recovered technology that did not originate on this".-Former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence-Chris Mellon

“Behind the scenes, high-ranking Air Force officers are soberly concerned about UFOs. But through official secrecy and ridicule, many citizens are led to believe that unknown flying objects are nonsense.” Former CIA Director, Roscoe Hillenkoetter, public statement, 1960.
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Dies Irae
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In reply to Aztec1948 • 7:34p, 8/11/23
Aztec1948 said:
Dies Irae said:
Aztec1948 said:
Some believe she may have been artificially inseminated. I've yet to see any data supporting that, but it would make sense.


I would think long and hard about scoring clout off of the Mother of God for internet clout. The risk/reward calculus has to be off the charts.
Thats exactly how "they" operate. Fear and intimidation. Religions are control mechanisms of humanity. I wish it wasn't true...but it is.


You think people on this thread are Catholic because of fear and intimidation?
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Aztec1948
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In reply to Dies Irae • 7:38p, 8/11/23
Dies Irae said:
Aztec1948 said:
Dies Irae said:
Aztec1948 said:
Some believe she may have been artificially inseminated. I've yet to see any data supporting that, but it would make sense.


I would think long and hard about scoring clout off of the Mother of God for internet clout. The risk/reward calculus has to be off the charts.
Thats exactly how "they" operate. Fear and intimidation. Religions are control mechanisms of humanity. I wish it wasn't true...but it is.


You think people on this thread are Catholic because of fear and intimidation?
The major religions, Judism, Christianity, Islam....were all begun and maintained by extraterrestrials. Yes, I understand those not familiar with the current unfolding disclosure of this reality will think its flat out crazy, but it's true. I wish it wasn't. But when you sit down and honestly look at things....
"I have been told that we have recovered technology that did not originate on this".-Former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence-Chris Mellon

“Behind the scenes, high-ranking Air Force officers are soberly concerned about UFOs. But through official secrecy and ridicule, many citizens are led to believe that unknown flying objects are nonsense.” Former CIA Director, Roscoe Hillenkoetter, public statement, 1960.
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Dies Irae
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In reply to Aztec1948 • 7:51p, 8/11/23
Aztec1948 said:
Dies Irae said:
Aztec1948 said:
Dies Irae said:
Aztec1948 said:
Some believe she may have been artificially inseminated. I've yet to see any data supporting that, but it would make sense.


I would think long and hard about scoring clout off of the Mother of God for internet clout. The risk/reward calculus has to be off the charts.
Thats exactly how "they" operate. Fear and intimidation. Religions are control mechanisms of humanity. I wish it wasn't true...but it is.


You think people on this thread are Catholic because of fear and intimidation?
The major religions, Judism, Christianity, Islam....were all begun and maintained by extraterrestrials. Yes, I understand those not familiar with the current unfolding disclosure of this reality will think its flat out crazy, but it's true. I wish it wasn't. But when you sit down and honestly look at things....


Redstone does the wild eyed crazy schtick much better bro.
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FIDO95
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In reply to TheGreatEscape • 8:21p, 8/11/23
AG
TheGreatEscape said:
I'm currently reading "Mary" by Catholic answers.
I have no problem with saying that Mary was the Mother of God. But I do not pray to dead people, even Mary that is blessed upon women and full of grace.
Great conversation all around. I would like to clarify one point however. Catholics do not "pray to dead people" either:

Matthew 22: 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." 33 And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

All of our physical bodies will die. The promise is that are souls will have eternal life with God in Heaven if we are judged to be worthy. We ask saints, souls in heaven who are very much alive, to pray for us in a similar manner that one might ask a person of this world to pray for them in a time of need.

"Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen."
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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TheGreatEscape
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In reply to FIDO95 • 8:55p, 8/11/23
FIDO95 said:
TheGreatEscape said:
I'm currently reading "Mary" by Catholic answers.
I have no problem with saying that Mary was the Mother of God. But I do not pray to dead people, even Mary that is blessed upon women and full of grace.
Great conversation all around. I would like to clarify one point however. Catholics do not "pray to dead people" either:

Matthew 22: 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." 33 And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

All of our physical bodies will die. The promise is that are souls will have eternal life with God in Heaven if we are judged to be worthy. We ask saints, souls in heaven who are very much alive, to pray for us in a similar manner that one might ask a person of this world to pray for them in a time of need.

"Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen."


Bless you, same team. I just don't think veneration is biblical. I try to show charity as much as possible.
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Aztec1948
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10:24p, 8/11/23
"I have been told that we have recovered technology that did not originate on this".-Former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence-Chris Mellon

“Behind the scenes, high-ranking Air Force officers are soberly concerned about UFOs. But through official secrecy and ridicule, many citizens are led to believe that unknown flying objects are nonsense.” Former CIA Director, Roscoe Hillenkoetter, public statement, 1960.
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Faithful Ag
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In reply to TheGreatEscape • 11:30p, 8/11/23
TheGreatEscape said:
FIDO95 said:
TheGreatEscape said:
I'm currently reading "Mary" by Catholic answers.
I have no problem with saying that Mary was the Mother of God. But I do not pray to dead people, even Mary that is blessed upon women and full of grace.
Great conversation all around. I would like to clarify one point however. Catholics do not "pray to dead people" either:

Matthew 22: 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." 33 And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

All of our physical bodies will die. The promise is that are souls will have eternal life with God in Heaven if we are judged to be worthy. We ask saints, souls in heaven who are very much alive, to pray for us in a similar manner that one might ask a person of this world to pray for them in a time of need.

"Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen."


Bless you, same team. I just don't think veneration is biblical. I try to show charity as much as possible.
Which brings us back to the whole question of What is Scripture? What books should be included and which books should be excluded and who decides? For 1500 plus years the Bible included the Deuterocanonical books. It was only within the last 200 years that these books were removed from the Bible. When you say something is not "Biblical" it kind of misses the mark because you are making the presumption that your version of the Bible is correct, to which we would argue is incomplete.
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TheGreatEscape
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In reply to Faithful Ag • 11:33p, 8/11/23
Faithful Ag said:
TheGreatEscape said:
FIDO95 said:
TheGreatEscape said:
I'm currently reading "Mary" by Catholic answers.
I have no problem with saying that Mary was the Mother of God. But I do not pray to dead people, even Mary that is blessed upon women and full of grace.
Great conversation all around. I would like to clarify one point however. Catholics do not "pray to dead people" either:

Matthew 22: 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." 33 And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

All of our physical bodies will die. The promise is that are souls will have eternal life with God in Heaven if we are judged to be worthy. We ask saints, souls in heaven who are very much alive, to pray for us in a similar manner that one might ask a person of this world to pray for them in a time of need.

"Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen."


Bless you, same team. I just don't think veneration is biblical. I try to show charity as much as possible.
Which brings us back to the whole question of What is Scripture? What books should be included and which books should be excluded and who decides? For 1500 plus years the Bible included the Deuterocanonical books. It was only within the last 200 years that these books were removed from the Bible. When you say something is not "Biblical" it kind of misses the mark because you are making the presumption that your version of the Bible is correct, to which we would argue is incomplete.


There was some disagreement before the council of Trent.
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AgLiving06
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In reply to Faithful Ag • 7:49a, 8/12/23
Faithful Ag said:
TheGreatEscape said:
FIDO95 said:
TheGreatEscape said:
I'm currently reading "Mary" by Catholic answers.
I have no problem with saying that Mary was the Mother of God. But I do not pray to dead people, even Mary that is blessed upon women and full of grace.
Great conversation all around. I would like to clarify one point however. Catholics do not "pray to dead people" either:

Matthew 22: 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." 33 And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

All of our physical bodies will die. The promise is that are souls will have eternal life with God in Heaven if we are judged to be worthy. We ask saints, souls in heaven who are very much alive, to pray for us in a similar manner that one might ask a person of this world to pray for them in a time of need.

"Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen."


Bless you, same team. I just don't think veneration is biblical. I try to show charity as much as possible.
Which brings us back to the whole question of What is Scripture? What books should be included and which books should be excluded and who decides? For 1500 plus years the Bible included the Deuterocanonical books. It was only within the last 200 years that these books were removed from the Bible. When you say something is not "Biblical" it kind of misses the mark because you are making the presumption that your version of the Bible is correct, to which we would argue is incomplete.

Deuterocanonical books may have been with the canonical books, but as has been shown, it was not held on par with the canonical books the way Rome decided to rule at Trent.

So if anything there's 2 mistakes nowadays:

1. Newer "protestant" translations leaving the Apocrypha out of their bibles
2. Rome incorrectly putting them on par with canon.

Point 1 is an easier thing to fix.
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Faithful Ag
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In reply to AgLiving06 • 9:40a, 8/12/23
AgLiving06 said:
Deuterocanonical books may have been with the canonical books, but as has been shown, it was not held on par with the canonical books the way Rome decided to rule at Trent.

So if anything there's 2 mistakes nowadays:

1. Newer "protestant" translations leaving the Apocrypha out of their bibles
2. Rome incorrectly putting them on par with canon.

Point 1 is an easier thing to fix.
Neither you, nor any other Protestant on this board, has ever made a convincing defense or case for expunging the Deuterocanonical books from the Bible. It was not Rome elevating these books to be on par with Canon. Trent was a necessary response by the church because of the confusion being caused by the reformers - primarily their treatment of what the church held as Scripture. These books were intermixed throughout the OT without distinction or disclaimer up to and until the reformation. The were relegated to "not equal to Scripture" by the reformers, and sometime in the 1800's Protestants removed them altogether. That is the history.

Why? Because the reformers didn't like the theology these writings support. For example, the practice or thought of praying for those who have passed on from this world. So when someone says they refuse to pray for the dead because it's not "Biblical" we have to ask - according to who?
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Dies Irae
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In reply to AgLiving06 • 9:42a, 8/12/23
AgLiving06 said:
Faithful Ag said:
TheGreatEscape said:
FIDO95 said:
TheGreatEscape said:
I'm currently reading "Mary" by Catholic answers.
I have no problem with saying that Mary was the Mother of God. But I do not pray to dead people, even Mary that is blessed upon women and full of grace.
Great conversation all around. I would like to clarify one point however. Catholics do not "pray to dead people" either:

Matthew 22: 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." 33 And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

All of our physical bodies will die. The promise is that are souls will have eternal life with God in Heaven if we are judged to be worthy. We ask saints, souls in heaven who are very much alive, to pray for us in a similar manner that one might ask a person of this world to pray for them in a time of need.

"Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen."


Bless you, same team. I just don't think veneration is biblical. I try to show charity as much as possible.
Which brings us back to the whole question of What is Scripture? What books should be included and which books should be excluded and who decides? For 1500 plus years the Bible included the Deuterocanonical books. It was only within the last 200 years that these books were removed from the Bible. When you say something is not "Biblical" it kind of misses the mark because you are making the presumption that your version of the Bible is correct, to which we would argue is incomplete.

Deuterocanonical books may have been with the canonical books, but as has been shown, it was not held on par with the canonical books the way Rome decided to rule at Trent.

So if anything there's 2 mistakes nowadays:

1. Newer "protestant" translations leaving the Apocrypha out of their bibles
2. Rome incorrectly putting them on par with canon.

Point 1 is an easier thing to fix.


If Rome incorrectly put them on par with scripture, Constantinople did as well. The Split with Orthodoxy far predates the council of Trent, yet the apocrypha are included in the Orthodox Bible as well (they don't call them the apocrypha though)
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PabloSerna
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10:00a, 8/12/23
AG
In a word, "magnify" as in,

"My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant." LK 1:46-48

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PabloSerna
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In reply to Dies Irae • 10:01a, 8/12/23
AG
ETA- responded to the wrong post.
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PabloSerna
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In reply to AgLiving06 • 10:11a, 8/12/23
AG
Here we go- it is understandable that you would write this. All I can suggest is a massive dive into the history of the Bible without any confirmation bias.

I listened to a biblical scholar, Scott Hahn and some others, and would suggest starting at that level. I mean Jesus was quoting scripture, Paul wrote, as did others- at some point the early Church had to decide what was divinely inspired and what was not.

On top of that there is St. Jerome and his translation into Latin. Think History Detective and go from there.

Something else are the politics that surrounded the Reformation. Why would a book like Maccabees be removed unless it could be used as proof text for something like praying for the dead?

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PabloSerna
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In reply to Aztec1948 • 10:30a, 8/12/23
AG
Since you are here and seem to be genuine:

1. Your definition of religion (control mechanisms) is narrow at best. There is a teaching body, just as you are in the mode of sharing your knowledge- but there is more! Hospitals, prison ministry, clothing redistribution, scientists, shelters, among many other areas.

2. You want to make a connection to extraterrestrial enlightenment to explain what science has already proven humans accomplished. Until you factor in that truth, it does sound crazy because it is.

3. The miraculous birth of Jesus, who is God incarnate, is just that - a miracle. Your idea of artificial insemination would deny the very core of the Christian understanding that Jesus is God and man.

4. The idea that Catholics adapted pagan ceremony, dates, and maybe certain rituals- is missing the fact that those were incomplete. Take Easter for example, was stuck in nature for probably a 1000 years. The resurrection of Jesus gave it new meaning and completed what man had previously only had partial insight. Where you think the Church adopted, we know it was perfected with the Holy Spirit. Just to give you our perspective.

HTH
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AgLiving06
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In reply to Faithful Ag • 2:40p, 8/12/23
Faithful Ag said:
AgLiving06 said:
Deuterocanonical books may have been with the canonical books, but as has been shown, it was not held on par with the canonical books the way Rome decided to rule at Trent.

So if anything there's 2 mistakes nowadays:

1. Newer "protestant" translations leaving the Apocrypha out of their bibles
2. Rome incorrectly putting them on par with canon.

Point 1 is an easier thing to fix.
Neither you, nor any other Protestant on this board, has ever made a convincing defense or case for expunging the Deuterocanonical books from the Bible. It was not Rome elevating these books to be on par with Canon. Trent was a necessary response by the church because of the confusion being caused by the reformers - primarily their treatment of what the church held as Scripture. These books were intermixed throughout the OT without distinction or disclaimer up to and until the reformation. The were relegated to "not equal to Scripture" by the reformers, and sometime in the 1800's Protestants removed them altogether. That is the history.

Why? Because the reformers didn't like the theology these writings support. For example, the practice or thought of praying for those who have passed on from this world. So when someone says they refuse to pray for the dead because it's not "Biblical" we have to ask - according to who?

You didn't read what I wrote. I am not a proponent of "expunging the Deuterocanonical books from the Bible." IN fact I called that one of two mistakes.

Even Trent realized the problem and the vote for the canon was not won by a majority of votes, but by a significant portion of the voters choosing to abstain to allow it to pass.

Your last paragraph is wrong of course. The Reformers actually agreed with the historical view of these books and held that they were significant works that should be used, but were not on part with canon. Rome, likely in order to force an anathema on the Reformers, carved a new path.
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