TheGreatEscape said:

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Kurt,

One thing that stood out to me is you find all these discussions to be meaninglessness. I find your argument and appeals to be shortsighted and nihilistic.

Atheism still has to deal with the problem of evil, too. The main difference is that there is no final justice for the atheistic worldview.

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All worldviews are shortsighted when compared to the standards of another worldview. Wouldn't you expect all other religions to look at Christianity and find it uncomfortable and misguided?

What final justice do you feel humans are entitled to? Maybe we aren't entitled by the universe to anything? And if there is final Christian Justice at the end, the only justice we get is God's. We are not permitted to disagree with His sense of justice. Cold, steel, absolute, final, uncompromising, and unyielding justice from an absolute authority. To borrow from Hitchens, God is a celestial Kim Jong Un, but unlike in Christianity, North Koreans can at least die and escape tyranny.

kurt vonnegut said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Kurt,

One thing that stood out to me is you find all these discussions to be meaninglessness. I find your argument and appeals to be shortsighted and nihilistic.

Atheism still has to deal with the problem of evil, too. The main difference is that there is no final justice for the atheistic worldview.

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All worldviews are shortsighted when compared to the standards of another worldview. Wouldn't you expect all other religions to look at Christianity and find it uncomfortable and misguided?

What final justice do you feel humans are entitled to? Maybe we aren't entitled by the universe to anything? And if there is final Christian Justice at the end, the only justice we get is God's. We are not permitted to disagree with His sense of justice. Cold, steel, absolute, final, uncompromising, and unyielding justice from an absolute authority. To borrow from Hitchens, God is a celestial Kim Jong Un, but unlike in Christianity, North Koreans can at least die and escape tyranny.

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It's more of a promise to us than it is entitlement.

The wicked will not go unpunished. That's comforting that there wasn't just sky above Auschwitz.

Hitler, Stalin, and Mao murdered millions for their cause.
Without God is just like Forest Gump saying "stuff happens."

If we were to draw a line down the middle of a whiteboard and place on the right side "In Christ" and on left side "Outside of Christ," this is what we would get.

On the "Outside of Christ" side, we would put the works of serial killers and rapists to the far left of the middle line.

Then we would place someone who spends his or her life giving to the poor closer to the middle line.

But that person didn't do what he did unto the glory of God and wasn't in Christ. So no matter how much good one does without Christ, he or she is still on the left side of the line.

kurt vonnegut said:

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Klaus Schwab said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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even if the value is merely assigned by ourselves

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and with this statement you fall into relativism and therefore an arbitrary view on life.

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All of our views are arbitrary, I'm just willing to admit it.

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Two issues here. One- you stated a universal that you can't prove. Two- if all views are arbitrary then then your conclusion that all views are arbitrary is arbitrary.

Quote:

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The wicked will not go unpunished. That's comforting that there wasn't just sky above Auschwitz.

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Except that's not really true in Christianity. There's only one sin of any importance in Christianity and that's not being a Christian. Everything else is negotiable.

Rocag said:

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Quote:

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The wicked will not go unpunished. That's comforting that there wasn't just sky above Auschwitz.

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Except that's not really true in Christianity. There's only one sin of any importance in Christianity and that's not being a Christian. Everything else is negotiable.

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Matthew 5:18 (ESV)

"For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

TheGreatEscape said:

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The wicked will not go unpunished. That's comforting that there wasn't just sky above Auschwitz.

Hitler, Stalin, and Mao murdered millions for their cause.
Without God is just like Forest Gump saying "stuff happens."

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What is justice for those people? What is the correct punishment?

TheGreatEscape said:

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If we were to draw a line down the middle of a whiteboard and place on the right side "In Christ" and on left side "Outside of Christ," this is what we would get.

On the "Outside of Christ" side, we would put the works of serial killers and rapists to the far left of the middle line.

Then we would place someone who spends his or her life giving to the poor closer to the middle line.

But that person didn't do what he did unto the glory of God and wasn't in Christ. So no matter how much good one does without Christ, he or she is still on the left side of the line.

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Yes, the tactics of an insecure and narcissistic God. He created humans to be inherently sinful and 'bad' and only capable of redemption through submission.

Again, its such a bizzare form of love to me. Created sick and ordered to be well.

Klaus Schwab said:

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Two issues here. One- you stated a universal that you can't prove. Two- if all views are arbitrary then then your conclusion that all views are arbitrary is arbitrary.

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The first is my opinion. To the second point . . . Yes, agreed.

Rocag said:

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Quote:

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The wicked will not go unpunished. That's comforting that there wasn't just sky above Auschwitz.

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Except that's not really true in Christianity. There's only one sin of any importance in Christianity and that's not being a Christian. Everything else is negotiable.

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And that is a wonderful thing. We are forgiven and free. And Christ on the cross did all our negotiating for us.

kurt vonnegut said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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If we were to draw a line down the middle of a whiteboard and place on the right side "In Christ" and on left side "Outside of Christ," this is what we would get.

On the "Outside of Christ" side, we would put the works of serial killers and rapists to the far left of the middle line.

Then we would place someone who spends his or her life giving to the poor closer to the middle line.

But that person didn't do what he did unto the glory of God and wasn't in Christ. So no matter how much good one does without Christ, he or she is still on the left side of the line.

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Yes, the tactics of an insecure and narcissistic God. He created humans to be inherently sinful and 'bad' and only capable of redemption through submission.

Again, its such a bizzare form of love to me. Created sick and ordered to be well.

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Man caused the Fall. Not God.

Man was originally created perfect and messed up.

kurt vonnegut said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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The wicked will not go unpunished. That's comforting that there wasn't just sky above Auschwitz.

Hitler, Stalin, and Mao murdered millions for their cause.
Without God is just like Forest Gump saying "stuff happens."

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What is justice for those people? What is the correct punishment?

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I am not God and will leave that up to Him.

Rocag said:

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Except that's not really true in Christianity. There's only one sin of any importance in Christianity and that's not being a Christian. Everything else is negotiable.

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That isn't true and never has been. It's a caricature of Christianity. Nowhere once does the church or the scriptures profess universal condemnation for non-Christians. In fact most of the warnings about condemnation are written to Christians, and hypocrisy is particularly censured.

We do have it great in the US, but here's a perspective.

Several years ago I was on a mission trip to Haiti. We were building dorms for an orphanage.

We spent a Sunday evening on the beach with several long-term missionaries. Our team thanked them for their service and sacrifice being in such a difficult environment.

They responded that they can easily see the needs of the people they were ministering to. The needs where overwhelming but basic: food, clean water, hygiene and sanitation, medical care, and so on. They could meet the physical needs and then minister to them spiritually.

They went on to say that, to them, ministering in the US is more difficult because in the US we can't easily identify the suffering of others. Americans put on a mask (ex: perfect, glamorous social media posts, etc.) and hide their suffering and demons. For someone, before they can/will allow us to minster to them spiritually we have to help them with their worldly suffering.

Zobel said:

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Rocag said:

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Except that's not really true in Christianity. There's only one sin of any importance in Christianity and that's not being a Christian. Everything else is negotiable.

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That isn't true and never has been. It's a caricature of Christianity. Nowhere once does the church or the scriptures profess universal condemnation for non-Christians. In fact most of the warnings about condemnation are written to Christians, and hypocrisy is particularly censured.

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Agree. I wish some posters would attend churches and see what really goes on and what the congregations are really like.

This sounds like a caricature from listening to the media.

Romans 1:18-23 (ESV)

"18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.

20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things."

"who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth"

The only way you can assert that there is evil is on the backdrop of the good. Only if good exist does evil become a problem.

Although I don't know the origin of evil, I do know the future of it. There will be a final justice. Amen.

That's like arguing that flat earthers have a valid argument. They don't. They're wrong. It's not in the scriptures and the church has never taught that.

Even if someone constructs an argument and uses scripture, it still doesn't make it right. There is a line that separates valid and invalid teaching. That line is determined by the church, not by individuals and certainly not by groups in schism with the rest of the church. If they separate over a teaching by like that, so be it - that puts them out of Christian teaching, not the other way around.

Christianity does not and has never taught that.

I completely disagree with Christianity as an envelope of religions. That directly contradicts the self-claims of Christianity. I do agree that there are various sects that claim Christianity; the claims are mutually exclusive. They can't all be right.

But even so, we don't have to go that narrow. There is a Venn diagram of Christian beliefs you can construct. Condemning non-Christians on that basis alone is just not a small-o orthodox christian teaching. It's ahistorical and has never been a doctrine.

You can find small town churches teaching all kinds of things. The existence or even the commonality of an argument isn't how we define truth or validity. What those people are teaching is wrong, as wrong as if they taught Arianism or that the Holy Spirit is not God or any of a number of beliefs that are outside of Christianity - all of which claimed scriptural backing, for what it's worth.

In the end if you say any sect that claims the title of Christianity has a claim to validity for their teaching you make it so anyone and everyone can speak for Christianity. That's impractical and only serves to muddy the water. The Westboro baptists of the world don't speak for Christianity.

This isn't some narrow random band, it's people on this very board. You say their beliefs aren't Christian- I don't really care. They call themselves Christians, society calls them Christians and broadly people can speak about Christian actions and beliefs that include versions of Christianity that you consider heretical.

It's fine to point out that's not all Christians, it's fine to argue it's wrong for whatever reason, but that doesn't make it a mischaracterization.

People/churches who claim Christianity are an envelope of mutually exclusive beliefs. The only way to say it's not an envelope is to exclude self professed Christians. You as a Christian are free to do that, it makes much less sense for someone from another faith describing common beliefs as pseudo Christianity

What Christian groups formally believe the specific view here that not being a Christian is a sin, and in that basis alone you are condemned? Who in this board has argued that?


I'm pretty sure this is an extreme minority view. Hence my calling it a caricature.

You're not saying that rejection of Christ is not a sin, correct?
My disagreement is that that's the only sin left to deal with:
There is the sin of apostasy. And people in the covenant community do that from time to time.

But it's not the only sin that matters. Everything that we do in the flesh counts against us somehow.

Matthew 6:19-21 (ESV)

19 "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust[a] destroy and where thieves break in and steal, 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

rejection of Christ and apostasy aren't the same as not being a Christian.

But if they do not obey the Gospel…

Matthew 28:18-20 (ESV)

18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

dermdoc said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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Yes, the tactics of an insecure and narcissistic God. He created humans to be inherently sinful and 'bad' and only capable of redemption through submission.

Again, its such a bizzare form of love to me. Created sick and ordered to be well.

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Man caused the Fall. Not God.

Man was originally created perfect and messed up.

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Did you mess up and cause mankind to not longer be perfect? Why are we collectively guilty and subject to punishment for the fall?

dermdoc said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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The wicked will not go unpunished. That's comforting that there wasn't just sky above Auschwitz.

Hitler, Stalin, and Mao murdered millions for their cause.
Without God is just like Forest Gump saying "stuff happens."

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What is justice for those people? What is the correct punishment?

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I am not God and will leave that up to Him.

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The post I responded to was a claim that the wicked will be punished. That it is comforting to know that genocidal dictators will be punished. I think your post should be directed at your fellow Christian, Greatescape. He is the one speaking for God, not me.

That said - I know it isn't what you believe, but what if God is a Universalist? What if there is no punishment for the wicked. Is that less of a comfort? Doctrines about Hell and punishment and justice are appealing to humans because we like vengeance.

kurt vonnegut said:

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dermdoc said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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Yes, the tactics of an insecure and narcissistic God. He created humans to be inherently sinful and 'bad' and only capable of redemption through submission.

Again, its such a bizzare form of love to me. Created sick and ordered to be well.

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Man caused the Fall. Not God.

Man was originally created perfect and messed up.

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Did you mess up and cause mankind to not longer be perfect? Why are we collectively guilty and subject to punishment for the fall?

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No I did not. And neither did you.

I am not a Calvinist. I do not believe in total depravity.

I do believe we inherited a sin nature because of Adam and Eve.

But Christ, the Great Physician, healed our sin nature on the Cross. It is great news.

kurt vonnegut said:

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dermdoc said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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The wicked will not go unpunished. That's comforting that there wasn't just sky above Auschwitz.

Hitler, Stalin, and Mao murdered millions for their cause.
Without God is just like Forest Gump saying "stuff happens."

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What is justice for those people? What is the correct punishment?

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I am not God and will leave that up to Him.

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The post I responded to was a claim that the wicked will be punished. That it is comforting to know that genocidal dictators will be punished. I think your post should be directed at your fellow Christian, Greatescape. He is the one speaking for God, not me.

That said - I know it isn't what you believe, but what if God is a Universalist? What if there is no punishment for the wicked. Is that less of a comfort? Doctrines about Hell and punishment and justice are appealing to humans because we like vengeance.

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I hate the doctrine of Hell. Especially as taught by a large swath of the Western Church.

God is good and a redeemer of all things. He can not sin.

I look at "hell" as rehabilitation. There is punishment but for our own good. Just like loving fathers do.

dermdoc said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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dermdoc said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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Yes, the tactics of an insecure and narcissistic God. He created humans to be inherently sinful and 'bad' and only capable of redemption through submission.

Again, its such a bizzare form of love to me. Created sick and ordered to be well.

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Man caused the Fall. Not God.

Man was originally created perfect and messed up.

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Did you mess up and cause mankind to not longer be perfect? Why are we collectively guilty and subject to punishment for the fall?

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No I did not. And neither did you.

I am not a Calvinist. I do not believe in total depravity.

I do believe we inherited a sin nature because of Adam and Eve.

But Christ, the Great Physician, healed our sin nature on the Cross. It is great news.

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So, Adam and Eve sinned and, as a result, all humans born after that time were born with an inherent sin. They were made imperfect, with sin, based on an action that was not their own.

And with Jesus' sacrifice, we are healed? In what manner? Are we no longer made imperfect and with sin? Or are we still made imperfect, made sick, based on original actions that were not our own. And are we not ordered to make ourselves well from those illness through God?

What is the great news? That God makes us sick. . . . but, he also has the cure? What if he just stopped making us sick?

dermdoc said:

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I hate the doctrine of Hell. Especially as taught by a large swath of the Western Church.

God is good and a redeemer of all things. He can not sin.

I look at "hell" as rehabilitation. There is punishment but for our own good. Just like loving fathers do.

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You define God as 'good'. Saying that He cannot sin is 100% circular. Going back to one of my original points on this thread - if we define all of God's works as good, then all of our human experience, intuition, emotion and reason are irrelevant. For any of those to disagree with God is to invalidate them solely on the basis that they disagree with God. The existence of the Christian God, it seems to me, would make all human individuality value-less.

Putting my combativeness aside, I do very much appreciate your version of 'hell' as compared to other interpretations. For you, I think it comes from a place of empathy.

"Who suppress the truth through unrighteousness" (Romans 1:18)

If there isn't a God nor a final justice, then the main
thing is that I don't have accountability.
I can watch porn and sleep around with whoever I
want if there is no God.

I think that's part of combativeness for not believing in Christ for the forgiveness of sins and a proper relationship with God that we'd miss without the gift of faith.

And if you are one that believes, then thank God and don't feel shy about contributing to the thread.