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Adam and Eve were not slaves to sin. They could do good, and chose not to. They unleashed sin into the world.
You can say that God could have prevented it, but nothing will change the fact that they, and their actions alone, did it while not being slaves to sin. It is your opinion that puts culpability on God, it is my opinion that puts culpability on man.
The problem you have in the first paragraph is that you don't believe mankind is slave to sin.

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I realize you've hung up, but just wanted to respond to this. The idea that only Adam and Eve had free will doesn't change anything. If you want to take a literal reading of Genesis, then Adam and Eve didn't have any children until after they had already sinned. God saw them fall and sin, and then He gave them the ability to have children. In your theology, every one of those children born after Adam and Eve are "slaves to sin", and that was God's intention and plan. So no one after Adam and Eve bears any responsibility for their evil nature, as it was completely out of our control and could not have been otherwise. So my original point still stands especially when you consider that under your theology God knew with absolute certainty that Adam and Eve would sin and start this whole chain of events.

As far as the "slave to sin" moniker, I think you take it too far. Every man does some good. Someone who is a totally depraved slave to sin wouldn't be able to do any good at all. So clearly no man is totally evil. Everyone also sins. In that way we are slaves to sin, in that we can't will ourselves to be free of temptation. For instance, Jesus says that to look upon a woman with desire is the same as adultery. But that isn't even a deliberate act; it's an uncontrollable reflex. No amount of attitude changes, willpower, training or effort can stop that from happening. It's hard-wired. You'd basically have to blind yourself or castrate yourself to stop that from happening. Christians used to do those things, but the Church correctly condemned this. You take away one temptation and you're still left with many others. We will only be free of temptation and sin when we change out these bodies for new ones. Until then we are "slaves to sin" in that we can't stop sinning and being tempted, but we can still make our lives about more than that and do our best despite our failings.

Wakesurfer817 said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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Its the same thing that inspire other Christians who understand that the Holy Spirit helps us perservere in our good works.
But are you saying that its impossible for someone at one moment to accept Christ in their heart and start off producing good works, but then something happens in their lives and they do an about face, reject God's grace and are unrepentant until they day they die? Or would you say they never were 'really saved'? In other words, if they are not preserving in good works and obedience until they die, a person was never really saved? In having a sinful nature, what is to keep someone to genuinely believes in Jesus from, at times, desiring to do Gods will and others to do what they want because there are no more repercussions eternally? I think we are all describing the same thing, its just as a Catholic we believe God calls us to persevere and our continued faith helps us work collaboratively with the Holy Spirit, and not just as puppets. Christs resurrection is the only thing that makes that possible and nothing we do on our own is sufficient. But we still have to have faith...which is not a one time verbal acceptance of the belief of Christs resurrection/divnity. OSAS comes across as saying salvific faith is a one time action and nothing else we do after that could change our destiny.

I believe faith is something that continues to grow. Is it not possible for a person to desire to have faith and confesses with their lips but doesn't really feel a deep seeded faith and the Holy Spirit dwelling within them. until after some time working out their faith? When would they have been saved?

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Great post. The short answer is that - for Reformed Christians - justification and sanctification are decoupled events. When one truly professes their faith in Christ (and gets baptized or is already baptized - a discussion for another thread), we believe they are immediately and totally justified fully with God. We believe that Christ's righteousness is IMPUTED to us by God. God as the sovereign judge declares us righteous based on Christ's atoning work on the cross. We aren't actually righteous (how long does it take you to sin after - or even before - you walk out of church?) but we now have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which allows and motivates us to do good works pleasing to God. The is the idea behind the "new creation".

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1. People are immediately and totally justified fully with God the moment they believe in Jesus' death and resurrection on their behalf. (a gift to be received)
2. Baptism - if you mean baptized by the Spirit at the moment of belief, I agree.
3. Love the rest of the paragraph

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Sanctification is the process we go through after justification where the Holy Spirit (very slowly in my case) changes us to conform to Jesus. This empowers us to accomplish the 2 Great Commandments. We love God - he loved us first. And then we're able to love others as ourselves.

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Agreed

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So sacrificial good works - where we put God and others ahead of ourselves (stewardship is a classic example - time, talent and treasure) are evidence of true and lively faith in Christ. Thus - we believe that good works ARE required to get to heaven. But they don't happen without faith. And when they do happen - we believe that they're all because of the Holy Spirit active in our lives - because without Him, all our good works are, in the words of the prophet - like dirty rags.

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Disagree here.

• Good works in the life of a believer that are brought about by the Holy Spirit have absolutely nothing to do with going to heaven but have everything to do with fellowship with God, others, reward, loss of reward, natural consequences of sin. This is where we store up treasure in heaven vs gain entrance.
• God doesn't need evidence of our faith as He knows who He gave the Spirit too.
• Too many biblical references in the Bible of believers sinning or living in sin and their eternity is assured as the starting point for addressing their sin issues.
• Believers can grieve the Holy Spirit.
• You can die on death row in a small room strapped to a chair, about to get the needed, with the impossibility of ever doing a good work and be justified if you put your faith in Jesus. Biblical proof, thief who ridiculed Jesus while nailed to a cross and then put His faith in Him.

Zobel said:

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The scriptures speak of the faithful being justified in the past, present, and future tense. We are justified, we have been justified, we await the hope of justification.

Every single time the last judgment is referenced in the scriptures the criteria is what you have done, and this includes the language of justification. Every time without fail. Any criteria for the judgment other than what you have done is not scriptural.

Being justified, made righteous, and being made holy are all of a piece, not separate things. The Christian has been adopted and will be adopted, has been saved and will be saved, has been raised up with Christ and will be raised, has been made holy and are being made holy and will be made holy, are perfected and are not yet perfect. You can't separate them without contradicting one scripture or another - again, too far to one side or the other and you end up in all sorts of opposite errors. And indeed throughout the scripture these concepts are often linked with contingent actions, like "if we suffer, we may be glorified" or "if we deny Him, He will deny us" or "To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life".

By the same token faith, obedience, grace, and actions are all of a piece. You are judged by faith, and you are judged by actions, and these two things are not different. Those who have faith are faithful, the faithful will do His work, this work reconciles us to God and others, it actualizes the grace made available, it conforms us to His image, it forms us into His Body, it is literally what we were created to do and to be - to do His work and become like Him. This is why everywhere and always the scriptures exhort us to live and to walk in a manner consistent with our calling - even to the point of making our election sure, because we will be judged.

Salvation is ontological, not juridical. It changes our nature, and our behavior and fruit reveal that nature. In the words of the Lord "every good tree bears good fruits, but the rotten tree bears bad fruits. A good tree is not able to bear bad fruits, nor a bad tree to bear good fruits." We are called to grow up to the full measure of the stature of Christ. We are called to be holy, and He will make you holy. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

This is so, so important, because when people talk about the Gospel and preaching the Gospel, too often they miss what it actually is. They think it is that Jesus loves them, and this is true! But incomplete. St Paul tells us that God will judge the secrets of men by Christ Jesus as proclaimed by my Gospel, that He has set a day that he will judge the world, and the resurrection is the proof of this. The Gospel is the same today as it ever was, and that is that a day will come when justice will happen. When He comes to count talents, to right wrongs, and to reward each according to what they have done, for good or for evil. The judgment is what prompts the response - what must I do to be saved? Saved from what? The judgment! "He is coming -- He is coming to judge the earth."

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I don't disagree at all. Thanks!
"He who has an ear let him hear."

Jude 1:1 (ESV)

"Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and brother of James, To those who are called, beloved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:"

Ephesians 2:8-9 (ESV)

8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Notice the antecedent that follows grace and faith known as the pronoun "it". The word "it" is grace and faith.

And then as a result of being saved;

10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

If God decided to punish the entire human race and not send His Son, would he be any less Holy for doing so?

The only objection that we could give is that God is just.
And that's not much of an objection.

One of the biggest pitfalls is that God must be obligated to be merciful. Mercy is never obligatory.

Mercy is something God does in his own freedom.

But since…all have fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23) We are all without excuse.

1. God could give everyone an opportunity but then there is no chance that all would be saved.
2. Or God could, by his sovereignty, insure that some are saved.
3. Or God could not offer salvation to anyone and there would be no one saved.
4. Or God saves everyone and universalism is true.

Look at what God did to everyone but Noah and his family.

God is not an equal opportunity employer.

Deconflicting election and free will. (Like I can do this. This debate has occurred for millennia)


Observations:

• Duel nature of Jesus. Fully man, fully God.
• Duel nature of Scripture: God wrote Romans. Paul wrote Romans.
• Duel nature of Justification: God chooses us, it's our responsibility to believe.

side note: These complex, exhaustively, unexplainable concepts do not point to this being created by the mind of man.


2 Possible ways to be saved.

• Live a life of sinless perfection. Jesus and babies, those without the mental capacity to make choices or believe.
• Believe in Jesus and accept the gift of His life's payment for your sins (for us post resurrection)

Is it true that God chooses people for salvation? Yes.
Is it true that God knows who will be saved? Yes.
Do people go to hell because they are not chosen? Undecided but I lean towards man's responsibility.

1. Salvation is available to them.
2. People are separated from eternal life because:

They do not believe.Their sin.

Jesus put it this way...

18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.


Pharaoh:

Romans 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

For Scripture says means read the OT passage he's quoting.

Exodus 9:16 But, indeed, for this reason I have allowed you to remain, in order to show you My power and in order to proclaim My name through all the earth. 17 Still you exalt yourself against My people by not letting them go.


Observations:

• God made a choice to harden Pharaoh's heart (mentioned 10 times clearly)
• Pharaoh also hardened his own heart. (3 times clearly)
• Pharaoh had a choice to exalt God instead of Himself
• Pharaoh had a choice to let God's people go.
• Pharaoh had plenty of evidence to make the right decision.

• 33 So Moses went out of the city from Pharaoh, and spread out his hands to the Lord; and the thunder and the hail ceased, and rain no longer poured on the earth. 34 But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned again and hardened his heart, he and his servants. 35 Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not let the sons of Israel go, just as the Lord had spoken through Moses.

In Romans 10 Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes

Observations:
1. Salvation is available to them.
2. They do not believe.

Where does the responsibility lie here?

Does God base His foreknowledge on the future choice of the elect?
That would make God's love conditional and based upon something virtuous done by the so-called freewill.

I mean if rejection of Christ is a sin, which it is. Then human choice based foreknowledge must have seen something virtuous about us, namely our wiser choice than our lacking fellow man who don't believe. ( at least yet)

Or God doesn't know the future, which make God no longer omniscient?

"It's not fair that God would not give everyone the opportunity to be saved." some say

Does God have the power to save everyone? Yes. Then why do people pass up the opportunity, if God is all powerful?


You see, you run into the same problem.

There are millions of people who have never and will never even hear the Gospel, sad to say.

DirtDiver said:

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So sacrificial good works - where we put God and others ahead of ourselves (stewardship is a classic example - time, talent and treasure) are evidence of true and lively faith in Christ. Thus - we believe that good works ARE required to get to heaven. But they don't happen without faith. And when they do happen - we believe that they're all because of the Holy Spirit active in our lives - because without Him, all our good works are, in the words of the prophet - like dirty rags.

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Disagree here.

• Good works in the life of a believer that are brought about by the Holy Spirit have absolutely nothing to do with going to heaven but have everything to do with fellowship with God, others, reward, loss of reward, natural consequences of sin. This is where we store up treasure in heaven vs gain entrance.
• God doesn't need evidence of our faith as He knows who He gave the Spirit too.
• Too many biblical references in the Bible of believers sinning or living in sin and their eternity is assured as the starting point for addressing their sin issues.
• Believers can grieve the Holy Spirit.
• You can die on death row in a small room strapped to a chair, about to get the needed, with the impossibility of ever doing a good work and be justified if you put your faith in Jesus. Biblical proof, thief who ridiculed Jesus while nailed to a cross and then put His faith in Him.

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Is it possible to have the Holy Spirit active in your life and not see fruit? Perhaps. I would argue the parable of the Sheep and the Goats might say otherwise. So would pretty much the entire book of James. Faith comes first - but without sacrificial, you first - me second, love your neighbor as yourself (especially when your neighbor is somebody you don't like) - it's dead.

Wakesurfer817 said:

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DirtDiver said:

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So sacrificial good works - where we put God and others ahead of ourselves (stewardship is a classic example - time, talent and treasure) are evidence of true and lively faith in Christ. Thus - we believe that good works ARE required to get to heaven. But they don't happen without faith. And when they do happen - we believe that they're all because of the Holy Spirit active in our lives - because without Him, all our good works are, in the words of the prophet - like dirty rags.

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Disagree here.

• Good works in the life of a believer that are brought about by the Holy Spirit have absolutely nothing to do with going to heaven but have everything to do with fellowship with God, others, reward, loss of reward, natural consequences of sin. This is where we store up treasure in heaven vs gain entrance.
• God doesn't need evidence of our faith as He knows who He gave the Spirit too.
• Too many biblical references in the Bible of believers sinning or living in sin and their eternity is assured as the starting point for addressing their sin issues.
• Believers can grieve the Holy Spirit.
• You can die on death row in a small room strapped to a chair, about to get the needed, with the impossibility of ever doing a good work and be justified if you put your faith in Jesus. Biblical proof, thief who ridiculed Jesus while nailed to a cross and then put His faith in Him.

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Is it possible to have the Holy Spirit active in your life and not see fruit? Perhaps. I would argue the parable of the Sheep and the Goats might say otherwise. So would pretty much the entire book of James. Faith comes first - but without sacrificial, you first - me second, love your neighbor as yourself (especially when your neighbor is somebody you don't like) - it's dead.

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That's right. Genuine faith (what James is discussing) produces works and they are the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5).

Ephesians 4:30 (ESV) the elect fear God

"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

Agilaw said:

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I can pretty much assure you several things regarding this topic: you don't have all the answers; others with contrary views don't have all the answers; nobody can understand all of God's thoughts and ways - nobody has Him figured out; God's nature is love and He is Holy beyond comprehension; it is easy to get drawn into discussions/disputes regarding an issue that won't be solved while we are on earth; it it much better to put efforts in sharing the Gospel and striving to be Holy than in attempting to convert others to Calvinism or Free Will; Personal belief: I think both groups are "chosen/elect" and it's not a matter of what we believe on this topic, it's WHO we believe and put our faith in; and we will see each other in eternity.

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That is exactly what I believe. Thanks.

Agilaw said:

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I can pretty much assure you several things regarding this topic: you don't have all the answers; others with contrary views don't have all the answers; nobody can understand all of God's thoughts and ways - nobody has Him figured out; God's nature is love and He is Holy beyond comprehension; it is easy to get drawn into discussions/disputes regarding an issue that won't be solved while we are on earth; it it much better to put efforts in sharing the Gospel and striving to be Holy than in attempting to convert others to Calvinism or Free Will; Personal belief: I think both groups are "chosen/elect" and it's not a matter of what we believe on this topic, it's WHO we believe and put our faith in; and we will see each other in eternity.

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I quit trying to figure it all out several years ago because it is too big for my pea brain to comprehend..I'll have trust and faith in the Lord and go with it…

88Warrior said:

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Agilaw said:

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I can pretty much assure you several things regarding this topic: you don't have all the answers; others with contrary views don't have all the answers; nobody can understand all of God's thoughts and ways - nobody has Him figured out; God's nature is love and He is Holy beyond comprehension; it is easy to get drawn into discussions/disputes regarding an issue that won't be solved while we are on earth; it it much better to put efforts in sharing the Gospel and striving to be Holy than in attempting to convert others to Calvinism or Free Will; Personal belief: I think both groups are "chosen/elect" and it's not a matter of what we believe on this topic, it's WHO we believe and put our faith in; and we will see each other in eternity.

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I quit trying to figure it all out several years ago because it is too big for my pea brain to comprehend..I'll have trust and faith in the Lord and go with it…

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Always love your posts.

Zobel said:

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The scriptures speak of the faithful being justified in the past, present, and future tense. We are justified, we have been justified, we await the hope of justification.

Every single time the last judgment is referenced in the scriptures the criteria is what you have done, and this includes the language of justification. Every time without fail. Any criteria for the judgment other than what you have done is not scriptural.

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All believers and non-believers will be judged by what they have done. This is not a judgement that determines heaven or hell. Eternal life is given at the very moment of faith in Jesus. At this moment of faith, the Holy Spirit is received, eternal life is given, and a person is declared righteous in the eyes of God. It's a gift, not a paycheck.

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvationhaving also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

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Being justified, made righteous, and being made holy are all of a piece, not separate things. The Christian has been adopted and will be adopted, has been saved and will be saved, has been raised up with Christ and will be raised, has been made holy and are being made holy and will be made holy, are perfected and are not yet perfect. You can't separate them without contradicting one scripture or another - again, too far to one side or the other and you end up in all sorts of opposite errors.

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Right. There's a combination of things that overlap. At the moment of faith a person is adopted but doesn't receive the full experiential benefits of adoption until the next life.

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And indeed throughout the scripture these concepts are often linked with contingent actions, like "if we suffer, we may be glorified" or "if we deny Him, He will deny us" or "To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life".

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Tons of conditional statements. They are not always in reference to eternal life. Believers can deny Christ, be faithless and not lose eternal life. They may be denied reward but having their gift of salvation revoked is not on the table.

11 It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Endurance = reigning with him as a special honor. This is the gift of salvation. All believers will live with him but not all will endure and reign.

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By the same token faith, obedience, grace, and actions are all of a piece. You are judged by faith, and you are judged by actions, and these two things are not different.

Quote:

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Those who have faith are faithful, the faithful will do His work, this work reconciles us to God and others, it actualizes the grace made available,

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it conforms us to His image, it forms us into His Body, it is literally what we were created to do and to be - to do His work and become like Him. This is why everywhere and always the scriptures exhort us to live and to walk in a manner consistent with our calling - even to the point of making our election sure, because we will be judged.

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Totally disagree. Those who have faith are instructed to be faithful. They are instructed to persevere and endure, to live a life walking by the Spirit, to press on to maturity. All believers will be saved, not all believers will finish the end of their life in obedience.

The reason scripture exhort believers to live and walk in manner consistent with our calling is because it's possible for a believer to walk according to the flesh and this is not what God desires because He loves us. Not living consistent with our calling doesn't mean the person is not saved or has lost their salvation. Loss of fellowship, reward, an untimely death, are all consequences of not walking faithfully.

Peter denied Jesus, Jesus didn't deny Peter because Peter was His.

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Salvation is ontological, not juridical. It changes our nature, and our behavior and fruit reveal that nature. In the words of the Lord "every good tree bears good fruits, but the rotten tree bears bad fruits. A good tree is not able to bear bad fruits, nor a bad tree to bear good fruits." We are called to grow up to the full measure of the stature of Christ. We are called to be holy, and He will make you holy. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

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• God does change our nature at the moment of faith by giving believers the Holy Spirit and making them a new creation.
• God has not removed the flesh and it's sinful nature at the moment of conversion which is what we see in Romans 7 and Galatians 5.
• Fruit is a product of abiding in Christ and walking by the Spirit. Believers will have fruit if they abide. If a believer choses to walk according to the flesh, they will sin.

The one who perseveres to the end will be saved is from Mark about the tribulation. It's not speaking about salvation from hell. These people have the Spirit in the few verses before and are sealed.

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This is so, so important, because when people talk about the Gospel and preaching the Gospel, too often they miss what it actually is. They think it is that Jesus loves them, and this is true! But incomplete. St Paul tells us that God will judge the secrets of men by Christ Jesus as proclaimed by my Gospel, that He has set a day that he will judge the world, and the resurrection is the proof of this. The Gospel is the same today as it ever was, and that is that a day will come when justice will happen. When He comes to count talents, to right wrongs, and to reward each according to what they have done, for good or for evil. The judgment is what prompts the response - what must I do to be saved? Saved from what? The judgment! "He is coming -- He is coming to judge the earth."

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15 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. 11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

The gospel is a message and the message is this: Jesus died for our sins. My sins and your sins. He was buried, and He rose again 3 days later.

Is the object of your faith Jesus and Jesus alone, or is your faith that God will save you for giving it your best shot to obey the commands found in the NT?

Isaiah 25:1 ESV)

"O Lord, you are my God;
I will exalt you; I will praise your name,
for you have done wonderful things,
plans formed of old, faithful and sure."

TheGreatEscape said:

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Does God base His foreknowledge on the future choice of the elect?
That would make God's love conditional and based upon something virtuous done by the so-called freewill.

I mean if rejection of Christ is a sin, which it is. Then human choice based foreknowledge must have seen something virtuous about us, namely our wiser choice than our lacking fellow man who don't believe. ( at least yet)

Or God doesn't know the future, which make God no longer omniscient?

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My answer to question 1 is No. God's foreknowledge is not based upon anything. God is outside of time. God has given man freewill. God sees all of the free choices we make before we make them.

8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

God didn't react when Adam and Eve sinned and say, "Crap, how am I going to solve this one?" All of humanities free choice to sin were in His foreknowledge. All of my sins were in God's foreknowledge when Jesus died for them. Did God choose for me to sin or cause me to sin? No. I made these choices. Did I respond to His conviction of my sins and place my faith in Jesus? Yes. Was this faith a gift? Yes. Did God know how I would respond? Yes.

It's nearly impossible to tell where one ends and the other begins. I just know both are true.

DirtDiver said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Does God base His foreknowledge on the future choice of the elect?
That would make God's love conditional and based upon something virtuous done by the so-called freewill.

I mean if rejection of Christ is a sin, which it is. Then human choice based foreknowledge must have seen something virtuous about us, namely our wiser choice than our lacking fellow man who don't believe. ( at least yet)

Or God doesn't know the future, which make God no longer omniscient?

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My answer to question 1 is No. God's foreknowledge is not based upon anything. God is outside of time. God has given man freewill. God sees all of the free choices we make before we make them.

8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

God didn't react when Adam and Eve sinned and say, "Crap, how am I going to solve this one?" All of humanities free choice to sin were in His foreknowledge. All of my sins were in God's foreknowledge when Jesus died for them. Did God choose for me to sin or cause me to sin? No. I made these choices. Did I respond to His conviction of my sins and place my faith in Jesus? Yes. Was this faith a gift? Yes. Did God know how I would respond? Yes.

It's nearly impossible to tell where one ends and the other begins. I just know both are true.

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We aren't that far apart. But we disagree on the human will before regeneration. At least you believe that God knows
the future.

Dead people in sin don't choose the spiritual good for
their salvation.

Ephesians 2-1-4

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience 3 among whom we all once lived in othe passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body1 and the mind, and we're by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.2 4 But3 God, being rrich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us…""

Genesis 6:5) "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

(Job 14:4) "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one."

(Psalms 51:5) "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."

(Psalms 58:3) "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

(Proverbs 30:12) "There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness."

(Isaiah 1:2-8) "Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me. {3} The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider. {4} Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward. {5} Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. {6} From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment. {7} Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers. {8} And the daughter of Zion is justify as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city."

(Isaiah 40:6-8) "The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: {7} The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. {8} The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever."

(Isaiah 64:6) "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

(Jeremiah 13:23) "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."

(Jeremiah 17:9) "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

(Matthew 11:25) "At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes."

(John 3:3) "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

(John 3:19) "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

(John 8:19) "Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also."

(John 14:16) "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;"

(Romans 3:10-12) "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: {11} There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. {12} They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

(Romans 5:12) "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

(1 Corinthians 1:18) "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."

(1 Corinthians 2:14) "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

(2 Corinthians 1:9) "But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:"

(Ephesians 2:1-3) "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins: {2} Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: {3} Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

(Ephesians 2:12) "That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world"

Wakesurfer817 said:

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DirtDiver said:

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So sacrificial good works - where we put God and others ahead of ourselves (stewardship is a classic example - time, talent and treasure) are evidence of true and lively faith in Christ. Thus - we believe that good works ARE required to get to heaven. But they don't happen without faith. And when they do happen - we believe that they're all because of the Holy Spirit active in our lives - because without Him, all our good works are, in the words of the prophet - like dirty rags.

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Disagree here.

• Good works in the life of a believer that are brought about by the Holy Spirit have absolutely nothing to do with going to heaven but have everything to do with fellowship with God, others, reward, loss of reward, natural consequences of sin. This is where we store up treasure in heaven vs gain entrance.
• God doesn't need evidence of our faith as He knows who He gave the Spirit too.
• Too many biblical references in the Bible of believers sinning or living in sin and their eternity is assured as the starting point for addressing their sin issues.
• Believers can grieve the Holy Spirit.
• You can die on death row in a small room strapped to a chair, about to get the needed, with the impossibility of ever doing a good work and be justified if you put your faith in Jesus. Biblical proof, thief who ridiculed Jesus while nailed to a cross and then put His faith in Him.

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Is it possible to have the Holy Spirit active in your life and not see fruit? Perhaps. I would argue the parable of the Sheep and the Goats might say otherwise. So would pretty much the entire book of James. Faith comes first - but without sacrificial, you first - me second, love your neighbor as yourself (especially when your neighbor is somebody you don't like) - it's dead.

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Question 1: Yes.

1. I do not see fruit as a product of salvation, but by abiding in Christ or walking with the Spirit. Homework: Make observations in 1 Corinthians chapter 1 of how much assurance the audience has of their salvation. Then go through the book and underline the sins or lack of fruit they are demonstrating.

Let's look at the chapter of Galatians 5.

These statements only apply to believers in Jesus. There is ZERO reason to make these statements if disobedience is not possible.

• It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. (it's possible to be subject again to the yoke of slavery)
• 2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. (interpretation: If you change your view on the freeness of the gospel of faith found in Jesus and act on it, Jesus means nothing to you) You have forgotten that justification is all about His finished work and not what you do. Notice that this person's gospel presentation would change. It would be a false gospel stating, "you have to get circumcised to be saved" faith in Jesus is not enough.
• 7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. Believers can be hindered from obeying the truth. Lack of fruit here.
• 13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. It's possible for Spirit indwelt believers to turn their freedom into an opportunity for the flesh. This is sin, lack of fruit, dishonor God, but doesn't revoke the free gift of salvation.
• 15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another. Look at what is possible when a believer does not walk by the Spirit.
• 16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

What happens when a believer does not walk by this Spirit. No fruit. The desires of the flesh are carried out.

James - Is James telling people how to have eternal life or Is James telling believers, those who have eternal life, to get off their butts and have useful faith?

Dead does not mean spiritual death in James. Dead means useless or profitless. Circle this word in it's context.

Sheep and goats are divided. Believers and not believers. A speech is given to the Sheep.

'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom

It could be that a specific audience of sheep is singled out: "you who are blessed" to receive an inheiritance conditional upon obedience. All sheep are sons, but not all sheep receive an inheritance. Look at other conditional passages of the NT for inheritance.

If sheep are saved by their faithfulness here, the this negates 2/3 of the NT which clearly speak to salvation being a gift of God by faith in Jesus.

No problem with those statements. A good hearty amen!!!

TheGreatEscape said:

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DirtDiver said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Does God base His foreknowledge on the future choice of the elect?
That would make God's love conditional and based upon something virtuous done by the so-called freewill.

I mean if rejection of Christ is a sin, which it is. Then human choice based foreknowledge must have seen something virtuous about us, namely our wiser choice than our lacking fellow man who don't believe. ( at least yet)

Or God doesn't know the future, which make God no longer omniscient?

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My answer to question 1 is No. God's foreknowledge is not based upon anything. God is outside of time. God has given man freewill. God sees all of the free choices we make before we make them.

8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

God didn't react when Adam and Eve sinned and say, "Crap, how am I going to solve this one?" All of humanities free choice to sin were in His foreknowledge. All of my sins were in God's foreknowledge when Jesus died for them. Did God choose for me to sin or cause me to sin? No. I made these choices. Did I respond to His conviction of my sins and place my faith in Jesus? Yes. Was this faith a gift? Yes. Did God know how I would respond? Yes.

It's nearly impossible to tell where one ends and the other begins. I just know both are true.

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We aren't that far apart. But we disagree on the human will before regeneration. At least you believe that God knows
the future.

Dead people in sin don't choose the spiritual good for
their salvation.

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Prior to justification people are spiritually dead. They cannot save themselves. I see the steps as.

1. The Spirit convicts the world (and individuals) of sin through His Spirit.
2. These people are spiritually dead.
3. The gospel is shared with them (sometimes over and over)
4. At one point in time this person's eyes are opened and they see their sin for what it is and accepts God's forgiveness by believing in Jesus.
5. Jesus credits this person's faith as righteousness and gives them the Holy Spirit.

God would be just in saving babies (who have a sin nature) and those who are mentally handicapped and do not have the ability to comprehend the gospel or believe. At some point as these babies grow up, they are accountable to God for their sins.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (ESV)

14 "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

Lots of assertions here about eternal life that just aren't in the scriptures. The last judgment is about eternal life, St Paul and the Lord both speak of it in these terms.

Zobel said:

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Lots of assertions here about eternal life that just aren't in the scriptures. The last judgment is about eternal life, St Paul and the Lord both speak of it in these terms.

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I was saved, am being saved, and will be saved in the end.

If saved…always saved.

[John 6:39-40
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees the Son, and believes on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Verse 39 Jesus states that He will not lose a single one of those who the Father has given Him. Then verse 40, Christ defines that group as those that believe in Jesus. This is because we, as believers, are "kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation" (1 Peter 1:5) until a fixed point in time - which we learn from verse 40, is the day of Resurrection.

This Scripture is also important because it defines the "will of the Father", which brings to light on the often twisted passage in Matthew 7:21, where we are told that only those who "do the will of the Father" will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

The will of the Father is that every believer is to be eternally secure, and will be raised up from the dead to live forever with God in the new creation. That's why we are told in 1 John 2:17 that "he that does the will of God abides forever"]

https://faithalone.net/topical-articles/articles/salvation/top-ten-verses-proving-eternal-security.html

Matthew 15:13 (ESV)

13 He answered, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up.

Those who have their roots in Christ can never be uprooted.

Matthew 15:18 (ESV)

"For many are called, but few are chosen."

2 Corinthians 1:19-22 (ESV)

19 "For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, whom we proclaimed among you, Silvanus and Timothy and I, was not Yes and No, but in him it is always Yes. 20 For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory. 21 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, 22 and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee."

If saved…always saved.

Luke 10:20 (ESV)

"20 Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."

TheGreatEscape said:

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Zobel said:

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Lots of assertions here about eternal life that just aren't in the scriptures. The last judgment is about eternal life, St Paul and the Lord both speak of it in these terms.

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I was saved, am being saved, and will be saved in the end.

If saved…always saved.

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This is incomplete.

What is missing is "Through faith I am saved, am being saved, and will be saved."

If I have no faith, then the statement becomes invalid.

AgLiving06 said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Zobel said:

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Lots of assertions here about eternal life that just aren't in the scriptures. The last judgment is about eternal life, St Paul and the Lord both speak of it in these terms.

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I was saved, am being saved, and will be saved in the end.

If saved…always saved.

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This is incomplete.

What is missing is "Through faith I am saved, am being saved, and will be saved."

If I have no faith, then the statement becomes invalid.

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I do have faith because of grace.