Agilaw said:

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You still reframe my question and don't answer my question that is clearly posed?

Are all of your kids, close family members, and friends chosen and part of the elect?

I suppose if you answered honestly you'd say yes.

I'd then say aren't you and yours to seemingly been extremely blessed to somehow have won the spiritual lottery of eternal life in heaven.

Another item, why is it that Calvinists won't/can't have an "alter call" or something similar or ask a friend if they would like to know Jesus personally as their savior as that is doing something you can't do in your theology. But you can go on a "mission trip" to a foreign country and do that exact thing???

You also didn't answer the difficult questions I posed
See below. You know if your kids, family, and close friends are part of the elect. Why do you struggle to answer that question? Just say yes, me and my friends and close family members have all been blessed to be part of the elect


Struggle? Your question is asking if I know if people have true faith. I hope so, but I'm pretty sure it's the Spirit that bears witness, not me. That's explicitly told in Scripture.

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Huh? That's not even an issue to me.

Yes. I wish all were saved. Modt of my family believes.

If you can't know until the end, and people can believe they're saved, be baptized, take the Eucharist, and be tares growing with the wheat because they fall away, then what is the point of the teaching? It's a tautology - those who are saved in the end are saved in the end.

Zobel said:

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If you can't know until the end, and people can believe they're saved, be baptized, take the Eucharist, and be tares growing with the wheat because they fall away, then what is the point of the teaching? It's a tautology - those who are saved in the end are saved in the end.

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We preach the Gospel to ourselves and to all. We hold to the promises that he will finish what he started. Otherwise, it's wood, hay, and stubble.

That's not an answer to the question. If you can't know until the end, this is a useless teaching. The only thing that matters is to persevere.

All I know is…without these promises in this thread, that one is left to faith in faith instead of faith in the Son of God
and His finished work.

That's not the question at all. Faith in God still requires perseverance in faith. That's why St Paul says - "to those who indeed with endurance in good work are seeking glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life" and "Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful."

We can have complete confidence in the promises of God. That is the substance of our faithfulness.

Zobel said:

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That's not the question at all. Faith in God still requires perseverance in faith. That's why St Paul says - "to those who indeed with endurance in good work are seeking glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life" and "Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful."

We can have complete confidence in the promises of God. That is the substance of our faithfulness.

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That he will neither leave us nor forsake us.
That He who has begun a good work will also complete it….

Exactly. But not against our will.

That people are unfaithful doesn't make Christ unfaithful. "He will never leave or forsake us" and "if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He is not able to deny Himself"

Agilaw said:

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You still reframe my question and don't answer my question that is clearly posed?

Are all of your kids, close family members, and friends chosen and part of the elect?

I suppose if you answered honestly you'd say yes.

I'd then say aren't you and yours to seemingly been extremely blessed to somehow have won the spiritual lottery of eternal life in heaven.

Another item, why is it that Calvinists won't/can't have an "alter call" or something similar or ask a friend if they would like to know Jesus personally as their savior as that is doing something you can't do in your theology. But you can go on a "mission trip" to a foreign country and do that exact thing???

You also didn't answer the difficult questions I posed
See below. You know if your kids, family, and close friends are part of the elect. Why do you struggle to answer that question? Just say yes, me and my friends and close family members have all been blessed to be part of the elect


Struggle? Your question is asking if I know if people have true faith. I hope so, but I'm pretty sure it's the Spirit that bears witness, not me. That's explicitly told in Scripture.

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With all due respect, I don't think you really understand the theology.

Zobel said:

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Exactly. But not against our will.

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Oh but He did with David in the promise that applies to us in 2 Samuel chapter 7. And He chastens those whom he loves…
And He will put us in a pigsty if we don't figure it out quickly. And He will put us in the belly of a whale like He did for Jonah hesitating to do God's bidding.
We who have hearts of flesh…instead of hearts of stone will
respond either the the easy way or the hard way way. God knows how to get His children's attention.

God loves all men, and wills that all should be saved and come to knowledge of the truth. He offers grace and repentance to all. He is the savior of all mankind, especially of the faithful.

Your words are empty rhetoric. We must take hold of that for which Christ took hold of us, and he who perseveres to the end will be saved.

Your way means God doesn't try to save some.

The allure of this theology always seems to be the desire to say that I am saved while also saying others are not.

He did with Hosea, too. He married Gomar the prostitute to represent the household of God. That's not what we are to be like. So God sent His Son to confound the wisdom of this world.

Zobel said:

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God loves all men, and wills that all should be saved and come to knowledge of the truth. He offers grace and repentance to all. He is the savior of all mankind, especially of the faithful.

Your words are empty rhetoric. We must take hold of that for which Christ took hold of us, and he who perseveres to the end will be saved.

Your way means God doesn't try to save some.

The allure of this theology always seems to be the desire to say that I am saved while also saying others are not.

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I've already discussed 2 Peter 3:9 and how that is about the elect or beloved. As learned as you are, learn what a pronoun/ antecedent is.
Either that or universalism is true.

I won't patronize you with a rude "with all due respect".

I am extremely familiar with your TULIP theology. I'm extremely familiar with Calvinists deflecting the questions they don't like to answer as they raise major issues with their own spirit and the scriptures. I know you rely on about 6 verses to establish your whole theology by saying the plain wording of those verses is clear, but . then you reject other clearly worded scriptures that don't support your theology I know it is curious that Calvinists whole families have somehow won the eternal lottery, while whole ethnicities have for some reason not been as fortunate. And, I know most Calvinists think they have reached some type of higher spiritual insight that other commoners haven't reached and you have spiritual pride in that.

I'm also not sure these conversations are honoring God or the body of believers.

Zobel said:

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God loves all men, and wills that all should be saved and come to knowledge of the truth. He offers grace and repentance to all. He is the savior of all mankind, especially of the faithful.

Your words are empty rhetoric. We must take hold of that for which Christ took hold of us, and he who perseveres to the end will be saved.

Your way means God doesn't try to save some.

The allure of this theology always seems to be the desire to say that I am saved while also saying others are not.

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Is God omniscient?

Agilaw said:

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I won't patronize you with a rude "with all due respect".

I am extremely familiar with your TULIP theology. I'm extremely familiar with Calvinists deflecting the questions they don't like to answer as they raise major issues with their own spirit and the scriptures. I know you rely on about 6 verses to establish your whole theology by saying the plain wording of those verses is clear, but . then you reject other clearly worded scriptures that don't support your theology I know it is curious that Calvinists whole families have somehow won the eternal lottery, while whole ethnicities have for some reason not been as fortunate. And, I know most Calvinists think they have reached some type of higher spiritual insight that other commoners haven't reached and you have spiritual pride in that.

I'm also not sure these conversations are honoring God or the body of believers.

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You have offered nothing consistent with the Scriptures, in my opinion. It was far more than 6 verses.

I think whatever we can say about God is fundamentally limited by concepts we can have in our minds. We can make positive or cataphatic statements but they fall short of reality which is beyond comprehension and ineffable.

When you start to set up logical structures that define God like all powerful and all knowing and you run into an apparent contradiction, you're not reaching the limit of God, you're reaching the limit of logic. There is a point where cataphatic theology fails, and apophatic theology takes over.

Even further, when the limits of our logic create a model where we feel like we must confess x or y to make God true, even if that is inconsistent with what has been revealed to us, we need to accept the limits of our model.

God is love, loves mankind, took away the sins of the world, wants all to be saved. We shouldn't negate things things by making other affirmative statements about His knowledge or power.

Zobel said:

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I think whatever we can say about God is fundamentally limited by concepts we can have in our minds. We can make positive or cataphatic statements but they fall short of reality which is beyond comprehension and ineffable.

When you start to set up logical structures that define God like all powerful and all knowing and you run into an apparent contradiction, you're not reaching the limit of God, you're reaching the limit of logic. There is a point where cataphatic theology fails, and apophatic theology takes over.

Even further, when the limits of our logic create a model where we feel like we must confess x or y to make God true, even if that is inconsistent with what has been revealed to us, we need to accept the limits of our model.

God is love, loves mankind, took away the sins of the world, wants all to be saved. We shouldn't negate things things by making other affirmative statements about His knowledge or power.

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Yeah but God's Holiness is above His love. That is why an exclamation point is added in Isaiah chapter 6 stating "Holy, Holy, Holy…

Sinners in the hands of an angry God, man..

The original doesn't have punctuation.

But fine. He is beyond "other" which is what Holiness implies. Point stands. He is beyond our understanding, totally other outside of all human knowledge or comprehension.

Zobel said:

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The original doesn't have punctuation.

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Holy three times is a point of emphasis for the Hebrews.

I'd say it's even stronger than the overused exclamation point. It is unique.

Ok. Doesn't change the point.

Zobel said:

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Ok. Doesn't change the point.

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It does.

There is clearly a point where our understanding of God will reach its limit. However, the sheer amount of prophecy in His word makes it pretty clear he is omniscient. I mean, we kind of depend on the hope of Christs return do we not? More importantly, I don't think any serious Christian will limit God by saying he doesn't know the future.

The point is, God knows who is people are and that's evident since Genesis. So, is God really trying to save everyone like you state?
In John 6:37, who is the Father giving to Christ?

The problem is taking omniscience and combining it with temporal knowledge, cause and effect, and so on.

You can reason all you like. The scriptures says He wills all men to be saved and come to knowledge of the truth, and that He wants all sinners to turn from their ways and live.

There is a fundamental tension between omniscience and free will. That's ok. We can accept that.

Bounce pass to Bob. Bob goes up and dunks it again.

Not that the elect should put God unto the test. But Gomar cheats on Hosea and Hosea accepts her back.

Zobel said:

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The problem is taking omniscience and combining it with temporal knowledge, cause and effect, and so on.

You can reason all you like. The scriptures says He wills all men to be saved and come to knowledge of the truth, and that He wants all sinners to turn from their ways and live.

There is a fundamental tension between omniscience and free will. That's ok. We can accept that.

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Jeremiah 1:5 (ESV): 5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
and before you were born I consecrated you;
I appointed you a prophet to the nations."

This isn't a concept beyond our comprehension. God knows who his people are. God is omniscient.

If God foreknows, then is he really trying to save people who will never be believers in Christ? Who is he referring to in John 6:37?

And no, there's no tension between Gods omniscience and our Free Will. That's a construct of our misunderstanding.

I vehemently hated these attributes of God in the beginning.
I raised my voice to someone who was preaching them.
Then I realized that it wasn't up to me. It was in the hand of God.

And yet, He takes the sin of the world. He is the propitiation for the sin of mankind, not just the faithful. You go one way to assert His omniscience and by doing so you pit His omniscience against His omnipotence. He wills all to be repent, live, and be saved.

If He wills all to be saved and come to knowledge of the truth, and some won't - what wins? His omniscience or His omnipotence? Or do we stop and accept the limit of our understanding?

Zobel said:

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And yet, He takes the sin of the world. He is the propitiation for the sin of mankind, not just the faithful. You go one way to assert His omniscience and by doing so you pit His omniscience against His omnipotence. He wills all to be repent, live, and be saved.

If He wills all to be saved and come to knowledge of the truth, and some won't - what wins? His omniscience or His omnipotence? Or do we stop and accept the limit of our understanding?

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Great all are going to heaven who have never even heard
the Gospel?

Romans 10:14-17 (ESV)

14 "How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!" 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ."

So we should all hang our heads in shame at how much we ought to be doing for the Gospel to be proclaimed unto the ends of the earth.

Christ came to the world to save sinners, not to condemn. He is the judge, and His judgment is merciful and just. We can trust in Him. The scriptures nowhere once say only Christians go to heaven. Christ does not teach that at the parable of the last judgment. We should pray for the salvation of all.

Ephesians 1:4-12 (ESV)

4 "even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 He predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 in him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory."

Yes. And is the gospel barred to anyone?

I'm not following.