Bob_Ag said:

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dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Agilaw said:

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Some thoughts: If a person were to pick up the scriptures and read them all, would they in any way, shape, or form come to the conclusion (without any outside influence) that the theology of Calvinists is the essence of the scriptures? Do you personally share Christ with others and tell them that Christ loves them and died for them and urge them to repent? Are you and your immediate family members all part of the elect? What about your close friends? How is it that response to the gospel message, and therefore spread of Christianity, is where there is active evangelism taking place? Why is God rejecting/leaving out vast swaths of people/ethnic groups from being elect/chosen?

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So does God base his love upon his elect after his foreknowledge shows a positive choice for
Christ is made?

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God loves everyone.

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He does. We get sunshine, technology, air, etc. but there is a special love for his elect.

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But in your theology, God preordains the non elect to hell, correct? And eternal torment.

And gives them no choice. How is that love?

Wouldn't it be better for them if they had never been born?

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Please read Romans 9. I've noticed you make some strong accusations on God's part in this thread brother, I lovingly caution against that.

You are trying to equate two things that are not equal and the argument you make would insinuate that God actively puts sin into people's lives (or to be sinful). God actively being involved in the salvation of His people does not equal God is actively trying to insure the remaining people are condemned because that is already the default state.

Think about the example of Pharaoh. Did God actually harden Pharoah's heart, make him sinful, then judged him for it (active, God put sin into someone's heart then accused him of being sinful which is unjust)? Or did God remove the restraint of Pharoah's evil inclinations (power and corruptibility) and let his natural tendency to do evil take over (passive)? The answer to that question should be the same way you view predestination. All throughout the Bible God actively works on others and passively leaves others to their evil ways. Both are ways God achieves His will and His glory. But they are not equal ways like you are insinuation.

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Fair enough. What happens to the non elect? "Passing over" vs condemning does not change the outcome does it?

And I have read Romans 9 a bunch of times. When you put it in the entirety of the Bible, it reads totally differently to me.

And obviously many other Christians and saints agree with me.

And why should I worry about anything as you caution me about?

I am either irrevocably saved or "passed over" which means damned in your theology.

Unconditional election and irresistible grace mean what they say, correct?

dermdoc said:

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Bob_Ag said:

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dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Agilaw said:

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Some thoughts: If a person were to pick up the scriptures and read them all, would they in any way, shape, or form come to the conclusion (without any outside influence) that the theology of Calvinists is the essence of the scriptures? Do you personally share Christ with others and tell them that Christ loves them and died for them and urge them to repent? Are you and your immediate family members all part of the elect? What about your close friends? How is it that response to the gospel message, and therefore spread of Christianity, is where there is active evangelism taking place? Why is God rejecting/leaving out vast swaths of people/ethnic groups from being elect/chosen?

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So does God base his love upon his elect after his foreknowledge shows a positive choice for
Christ is made?

---

God loves everyone.

---

He does. We get sunshine, technology, air, etc. but there is a special love for his elect.

---

But in your theology, God preordains the non elect to hell, correct? And eternal torment.

And gives them no choice. How is that love?

Wouldn't it be better for them if they had never been born?

---

Please read Romans 9. I've noticed you make some strong accusations on God's part in this thread brother, I lovingly caution against that.

You are trying to equate two things that are not equal and the argument you make would insinuate that God actively puts sin into people's lives (or to be sinful). God actively being involved in the salvation of His people does not equal God is actively trying to insure the remaining people are condemned because that is already the default state.

Think about the example of Pharaoh. Did God actually harden Pharoah's heart, make him sinful, then judged him for it (active, God put sin into someone's heart then accused him of being sinful which is unjust)? Or did God remove the restraint of Pharoah's evil inclinations (power and corruptibility) and let his natural tendency to do evil take over (passive)? The answer to that question should be the same way you view predestination. All throughout the Bible God actively works on others and passively leaves others to their evil ways. Both are ways God achieves His will and His glory. But they are not equal ways like you are insinuation.

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Fair enough. What happens to the non elect? "Passing over" vs condemning does not change the outcome does it?

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You still have to deal with the fact that many today have never heard the Gospel, nor are partaking of the Lords Supper. Atheists would have a field day with that point.

TheGreatEscape said:

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dermdoc said:

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Bob_Ag said:

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dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Agilaw said:

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Some thoughts: If a person were to pick up the scriptures and read them all, would they in any way, shape, or form come to the conclusion (without any outside influence) that the theology of Calvinists is the essence of the scriptures? Do you personally share Christ with others and tell them that Christ loves them and died for them and urge them to repent? Are you and your immediate family members all part of the elect? What about your close friends? How is it that response to the gospel message, and therefore spread of Christianity, is where there is active evangelism taking place? Why is God rejecting/leaving out vast swaths of people/ethnic groups from being elect/chosen?

---

So does God base his love upon his elect after his foreknowledge shows a positive choice for
Christ is made?

---

God loves everyone.

---

He does. We get sunshine, technology, air, etc. but there is a special love for his elect.

---

But in your theology, God preordains the non elect to hell, correct? And eternal torment.

And gives them no choice. How is that love?

Wouldn't it be better for them if they had never been born?

---

Please read Romans 9. I've noticed you make some strong accusations on God's part in this thread brother, I lovingly caution against that.

You are trying to equate two things that are not equal and the argument you make would insinuate that God actively puts sin into people's lives (or to be sinful). God actively being involved in the salvation of His people does not equal God is actively trying to insure the remaining people are condemned because that is already the default state.

Think about the example of Pharaoh. Did God actually harden Pharoah's heart, make him sinful, then judged him for it (active, God put sin into someone's heart then accused him of being sinful which is unjust)? Or did God remove the restraint of Pharoah's evil inclinations (power and corruptibility) and let his natural tendency to do evil take over (passive)? The answer to that question should be the same way you view predestination. All throughout the Bible God actively works on others and passively leaves others to their evil ways. Both are ways God achieves His will and His glory. But they are not equal ways like you are insinuation.

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Fair enough. What happens to the non elect? "Passing over" vs condemning does not change the outcome does it?

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You still have to deal with the fact that many today have never heard the Gospel, nor are partaking of the Lords Supper. Atheists would have a field day with that point.

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With all due respect, is that an answer to my question? And if the are "elect" or "passed over" what difference does it make whether they hear the Gospel or not? Or take the Lord's Supper or not? They are predestined to believe what they do or do not believe, correct? Just like atheists?

They have no choice.

I am grateful I was brought up in a Christian home and knew the Lord from an early age. When I encountered fervent Calvinism I was frankly shocked.

Any thoughts? Why not this one since you jumped in on my earlier post?

I just don't see a Savior biting his fingernails hoping the devil doesn't have a chance and nervously hoping those people who are His save themselves.

TheGreatEscape said:

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I just don't see a Savior biting his fingernails hoping the devil doesn't have a chance and nervously hoping those people who are His save themselves.

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He doesn't. And they do not save themselves. As the verse in Revelation says about Jesus standing at the door and knocking. We open it. He saves us.

dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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I just don't see a Savior biting his fingernails hoping the devil doesn't have a chance and nervously hoping those people who are His save themselves.

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He doesn't. And they do not save themselves. As the verse in Revelation says about Jesus standing at the door and knocking. We open it. He saves us.

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So it depends upon the man who runs, and the man who wills?

TheGreatEscape said:

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dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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I just don't see a Savior biting his fingernails hoping the devil doesn't have a chance and nervously hoping those people who are His save themselves.

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He doesn't. And they do not save themselves. As the verse in Revelation says about Jesus standing at the door and knocking. We open it. He saves us.

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So it depends upon the man who runs, and the man who wills?

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No it depends on whether via free will a person either rejects or accepts the grace of God. And I firmly that is confirmed by the majority of Scripture.

I know you will not agree. And that is fine. Just things to ponder.

Just curious, how long have you been a Calvinist?

Romans 9:16 (ESV)

16 "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. "

that verse isn't about people.

Zobel said:

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that verse isn't about people.

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"Human will or the man who"

TheGreatEscape said:

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Romans 9:16 (ESV)

16 "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. "

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Revelation 3:20
Behold I stand at the door and knock. If anyone opens the door I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

And I have plenty more.

dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Romans 9:16 (ESV)

16 "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. "

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Revelation 3:20
Behold I stand at the door and knock. If anyone opens the door I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

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That doesn't contradict. It's the power of the Holy Spirit upon His elect that opens the door-ultimately. .

TheGreatEscape said:

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Zobel said:

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that verse isn't about people.

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"Human will or the man who"

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the words "human" and "man" aren't in the Greek.

The entire passage is about nations, not individuals. St. Paul in Romans isn't just talking about sovereignty in a vague way. He's talking about how the plan of God unfolds in history even with and through those who are imperfect or even outright disobedient. He is answering his own rhetorical question - why have faithless tribes?


The whole book is St Paul speaking to a mixed congregation of Jews and Gentiles. That's what the focus is. It's not a theological treatise on salvation, it's a letter to real people with real problems. Several times St Paul answers rhetorical opponents questions as a part of this narrative, to teach. This chapter in particular is answering the posed question of did God's promise fail? And one example of how disinherited people are *not* evidence of God's promises and plans failing is Jacob and Esau. And also how God's promises don't follow the obvious path - in particular here the genetic or bloodline path!! - and God's will isn't subject to being fouled up by people. The immediate conclusion is ok Gentiles don't think that because of this God hates Israel or that you're some kind of plan B and they're out. You were always in the plan, but the plan is a mystery that is revealed.

Jacob and Esau are an example, and the proof that God's plan worked is that it was foretold that Esau's descendants would be subjected to Jacob's, and Malachi 1 is sort of the ultimate proof. Not because of Esau, but because the plan worked out and ultimately was true, because of what people did. In this case everyone involved worked for the good of God's plan, even if they did bad things or intended for evil. And ultimately the plan came to fruition in Christ in an amazing and wonderful way, as the conclusion in Romans 11 days, and All Israel will be saved.

All this other stuff about well Esau messed up (he did) and lost his birthright (he did) so it went through Jacob (it did) and some of his offspring the Edomites really screwed up (they did) doesn't point to therefore God hates Esau and let's make a bunch of theological conclusions about it and free will and salvation.

TheGreatEscape said:

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dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Romans 9:16 (ESV)

16 "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. "

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Revelation 3:20
Behold I stand at the door and knock. If anyone opens the door I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

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That doesn't contradict. It's the power of the Holy Spirit upon His elect that opens the door-ultimately. .

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Where does it say that? Is there hidden Scripture? It is pretty clear.

Quote:

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You also didn't answer the difficult questions I posed
See below. You know if your kids, family, and close friends are part of the elect. Why do you struggle to answer that question? Just say yes, me and my friends and close family members have all been blessed to be part of the elect

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Struggle? Your question is asking if I know if people have true faith. I hope so, but I'm pretty sure it's the Spirit that bears witness, not me. That's explicitly told in Scripture.

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And for your other response saying I didn't ask the right question. You are wrong. I asked a question you don't feel comfortable answering. So please answer the question I posed, not the one you want me to ask

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Disagree. See above.

Quote:

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Another one for you too. Did Jesus die for all. Meaning everyone. That's an easy yes or no answer. I look forward to your reply.

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Of course not. Christ's death is atonement for the sins of the faithful so they can be justified before God.

"John 6:40 (ESV): 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

Zobel said:

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The scriptures teach that Christ's death is atonement (covering) for the sins of the whole world, not just the faithful.

"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

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Agree.

Zobel said:

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The scriptures teach that Christ's death is atonement (covering) for the sins of the whole world, not just the faithful.

"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

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So you're telling me Jesus, by doing the will of the father, had his blood shed and died for all (which doesn't equate to "whole world"), but it was insufficient as clearly not all are saved.

I think at this point, all of us here can agree God is omniscient? God does indeed foreknow who his people are and that's true whether you are a Calvinist or not.

Quote:

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"29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Romans 11:2
2
The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Ro 8:2911:2.

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So God, knowing beforehand that only a fraction of all mankind is actually going to 1. Have faith and 2. Be saved, tells his Son to die for people that will never believe in Him?

John 10:11,15

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I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep….just as the Father knows me and I know the Fatherand I lay down my life for the sheep

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The sheep are believers.

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25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Jn 10:25-26.

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But what does it say right after that?

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27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

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They hear his voice (calling). He gives them eternal life (because they are now justified before God and can receive His grace. And these sheep, did they pick the shepherd or did the shepherd pick them? God did, and now the Shepherd will never lose them.

Disagree. Especially with only a fraction of mankind will be saved. 1 Timothy 2 3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9 say God wants every man to be saved.

Can God be thwarted?

dermdoc said:

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Disagree. Especially with only a fraction of mankind will be saved. 1 Timothy 2 3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9 say God wants every man to be saved.

Can God be thwarted?

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Those are not explicit texts. John10:11 is very clear about who is laying down their life for who.

Quote:

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25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Eph 5:2527.

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Who is the Church? It's the body of believers. Who get's sanctified in Christianity? Believers through the work of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus died for believers, not for unbelievers.

Zobel said:

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The scriptures teach that Christ's death is atonement (covering) for the sins of the whole world, not just the faithful.

"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

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So explain this.

dermdoc said:

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Disagree. Especially with only a fraction of mankind will be saved. 1 Timothy 2 3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9 say God wants every man to be saved.

Can God be thwarted?

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God commands us not to sin, yet we do. Does that mean we've thwarted God?

It's a misapplication of Scripture to make the claims you do (as we've been well over).

It is clear that through faith, God wants to save all.

It's also clear that many will turn away from God.

AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Disagree. Especially with only a fraction of mankind will be saved. 1 Timothy 2 3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9 say God wants every man to be saved.

Can God be thwarted?

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God commands us not to sin, yet we do. Does that mean we've thwarted God?

It's a misapplication of Scripture to make the claims you do (as we've been well over).

It is clear that through faith, God wants to save all.

It's also clear that many will turn away from God.

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I have a Lutheran friend who would agree with you..

I'm telling you that is a direct quote from St John in the scriptures. He is the propitiation for all sins, for the whole world, not only the faithful. St Paul also says He is the savior of all mankind, especially those who believe.

Zobel said:

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I'm telling you that is a direct quote from St John in the scriptures. He is the propitiation for all sins, for the whole world, not only the faithful. St Paul also says He is the savior of all mankind, especially those who believe.

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And I'm telling you, from the direct words of Jesus Christ, the Shepherd lays down his life for His sheep.

AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Disagree. Especially with only a fraction of mankind will be saved. 1 Timothy 2 3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9 say God wants every man to be saved.

Can God be thwarted?

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God commands us not to sin, yet we do. Does that mean we've thwarted God?

It's a misapplication of Scripture to make the claims you do (as we've been well over).

It is clear that through faith, God wants to save all.

It's also clear that many will turn away from God.

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What claims have I made that are a misapplication of Scripture?

And the only disagreement we have is that many will turn away from God and their free will trumps God's desire?

Just trying to understand what we are discussing.

Bob_Ag said:

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Zobel said:

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I'm telling you that is a direct quote from St John in the scriptures. He is the propitiation for all sins, for the whole world, not only the faithful. St Paul also says He is the savior of all mankind, especially those who believe.

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And I'm telling you, from the direct words of Jesus Christ, the Shepherd lays down his life for His sheep.

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So y'all are both quoting direct Scripture. Who is correct?

Yeah, I'm good with that. I don't have a problem with that and I don't see any contradiction between the two.

You seemed to say that Christ's sacrifice was not for all sins, only for the faithful. That is not what the scriptures say.

Christ died for all mankind, and His incarnation death and resurrection joined the nature of man to the divine in an irrevocable way, and He will raise all from the dead on the Day of the Lord for judgment. All men. He saved all from death.

A lot of this comes from an over-simplified soteriology. Sin and death are one thing, the eternal life in Christ is another. We are saved from things, and we are saved toward things.

So can you lose your salvation?

Hebrews 6:4-6 says yes, as does 2 Peter 2:20-21.

Zobel said:

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Hebrews 6:4-6 says yes, as does 2 Peter 2:20-21.

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The wheat grow with the tares.
These warnings are good for one to not be self-deceived. But I'm a son and not a dog.

Then we're back to a tautology. Useless rhetoric.

Zobel said:

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Then we're back to a tautology. Useless rhetoric.

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Whatever.

You still reframe my question and don't answer my question that is clearly posed?

Are all of your kids, close family members, and friends chosen and part of the elect?

I suppose if you answered honestly you'd say yes.

I'd then say aren't you and yours to seemingly been extremely blessed to somehow have won the spiritual lottery of eternal life in heaven.

Another item, why is it that Calvinists won't/can't have an "alter call" or something similar or ask a friend if they would like to know Jesus personally as their savior as that is doing something you can't do in your theology. But you can go on a "mission trip" to a foreign country and do that exact thing???

You also didn't answer the difficult questions I posed
See below. You know if your kids, family, and close friends are part of the elect. Why do you struggle to answer that question? Just say yes, me and my friends and close family members have all been blessed to be part of the elect


Struggle? Your question is asking if I know if people have true faith. I hope so, but I'm pretty sure it's the Spirit that bears witness, not me. That's explicitly told in Scripture.