ramblin_ag02 said:

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OSAS is a one and done thing that occurs at the moment of faith in Jesus

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Strongly disagree. That's sort of the whole point of the parable of the sower. Only those that take goodness, internalize it, and produce good works until the end are saved. So no one's salvation is assured until they are dead. Thus the high value placed on martyrs by Christianity. Dying for your faith is as good a guarantee about someone's salvation status as you are ever going to get.

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Great, succinct explanation. Thanks.

"Love never fails" (1 Corinthians 13:8).

DirtDiver said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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DirtDiver said:

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As far as I can tell, taking things to their logical conclusions leads you to one of two options. Either God is limited in some way and men have free will, or God is absolute in all things and men don't have free will. No other views are self-consistent and make sense, not that God necessarily has to make logical sense.

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I do not think God is limited. I believe He loves us so much that He gave us free will to allow us to ether choose or reject Him.

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Forgive me if I'm repeating some of the conclusions above but I think there's a difference between saying:

1. God is limited
2. God is chooses to limit His power
and then a kicker
3. God is limited by His nature (Hebrews 6:18 - so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie)

To tackle the last one. I don't think God being limited by His nature is a weakness. His fundamental character quality seems to be Holiness and He cannot sin or tempt others to sin.

God choosing to limit His powers at time is also not a sign of weakness nor does His mean He character or nature is limited. I've heard it said that God chose to limit His powers and give us free will. He's not making our choices for us. That is evidenced in that fact that He doesn't sin or tempt others to sin. We choose to sin.

We have examples of God limiting His power...

51 And behold, one of those who were with Jesus reached and drew out his sword, and struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his ear. 52 Then Jesus *said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. 53 Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

Namely in Jesus....

5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

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Almost sounds like Universal reconciliation. I can cherry pick Scriptures also.

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Other than lack of scriptural support for universal reconciliation, it sounds almost exactly the same

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I in no way believe in universal reconciliation. Please inform me what led you to connect these 2 dots?

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I believe he was talking to me my friend. I am the heretic. But if you explore the subject, I am in pretty good company.

Wakesurfer817 said:

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Zobel said:

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By recognizing that everyone is given sufficient grace for salvation, and sufficient opportunities for repentance.

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What do you think prompts "OSAS" believing Protestants to repent and do good works? Why would they? Have a look at this from Catholic Answers:

"When the collection basket comes around, Catholics give half of what Evangelical Protestants give and less than half of what mainline Protestants give. According to a study by the Presbyterian Church (USA), the average Catholic gives $727 annually, the average Evangelical $1,448, and the average mainline Protestant $1,627.

Why the disparity? Some people immediately say it's because so many Catholics are poor, and that pulls down the average. Actually, in the U.S., the average Catholic is wealthier than the average Protestant, when all Protestants are lumped together, so an appeal to relative poverty doesn't work."

Reformed Protestants are firmly in "Perseverance of the Saints" territory after all. If we're in "His Grip" - why bother to sacrifice? Jesus said "For where your treasure is there will your heart be also".

My point here is not to brag - rather it's to say that empirically, something must be going on to inspire "OSAS" believers to do good works. What do you think it is?

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Its the same thing that inspire other Christians who understand that the Holy Spirit helps us perservere in our good works.
But are you saying that its impossible for someone at one moment to accept Christ in their heart and start off producing good works, but then something happens in their lives and they do an about face, reject God's grace and are unrepentant until they day they die? Or would you say they never were 'really saved'? In other words, if they are not preserving in good works and obedience until they die, a person was never really saved? In having a sinful nature, what is to keep someone to genuinely believes in Jesus from, at times, desiring to do Gods will and others to do what they want because there are no more repercussions eternally? I think we are all describing the same thing, its just as a Catholic we believe God calls us to persevere and our continued faith helps us work collaboratively with the Holy Spirit, and not just as puppets. Christs resurrection is the only thing that makes that possible and nothing we do on our own is sufficient. But we still have to have faith...which is not a one time verbal acceptance of the belief of Christs resurrection/divnity. OSAS comes across as saying salvific faith is a one time action and nothing else we do after that could change our destiny.

I believe faith is something that continues to grow. Is it not possible for a person to desire to have faith and confesses with their lips but doesn't really feel a deep seeded faith and the Holy Spirit dwelling within them. until after some time working out their faith? When would they have been saved?

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Road = not saved
Rocky soil = believe, fall away during temptation (which happens to believers OT and NT all through the scriptures)
Seed among thorns = saved but not walking with God and not bearing fruit.
Good soil = fruit bearing.

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So according to salvation at the moment of belief, only the road is unsaved. Even the rocky soil is saved because those people had an instant of true belief. I think that runs contrary to the point of the parable. Using the terminology of "saved/not saved" I would say only the seed that landed in good soil and produced much fruit is saved.

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1. Jesus expressly states that the first road is unsaved. That distinction is not made of the other roads.
2. The point of the parable I think is to explain the options of what we see in reality as people respond to the word of God. Many people come to a saving faith and fall stop pursing Christ for various reasons, boredom, getting burned by believers, temptation, sin within church, persecution, etc. This doesn't mean that these people were not adopted into God's family at the moment of faith.
3. The ideal goal God/Jesus wants for all believers is to bear fruit to maturity, to persevere in the faith until their final days. The doctrine of OSAS does not oppose this.

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In regards to your other quoted scripture, it gets a bit tricky. After all, Romans 6:4 literally says that we die at the moment of baptism and have a new life in Christ. But we don't actually die and we don't yet have our new life. However, we are supposed to act like we do. So the NT gets a bit confusing on that point. After all, we think of ourselves as saved, but we are only saved to the extent that we are actually dead to the world and living in the kingdom of God. Since we are not actually dead, we can return to the world and negate any of that until the point of death.

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Yep. The doctrine of salvation is tricky at times because the term "saved" can refer to being saved from sin/hell, physical death, a useless life as a believer, saved from loss of reward, etc. We always have to answer the question in each context it's use: saved from what?

If salvation if based upon us considering ourselves dead to the world and living for God, there's no need for Jesus in Christianity. In this view salvation is a meritocracy. Obey the rules and live. The problem is, this does not offset our sin.

Is salvation a gift from God or a paycheck?

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Let me use the example of Julian the Apostate. He was the nephew of Constantine and raised Christian and held the office of lector as a teen. So there is no reason to doubt his sincere belief. However, in his early adulthood he left the faith and became aggressively pagan. He promoted paganism throughout his reign as emperor. He never persecuted Christians directly to my knowledge, but he would actively discriminate against them for important positions and argue against Christian belief. According to your model, Julian the Apostate was saved. According to mine he was not, putting aside for a moment my general notions of God's grace toward non-Christians.

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1. God only knows the heart of a person in reference to salvation. I cannot determine if Julian is saved or not saved.
2. The closest I can get to knowing if a person is saved is not by being a fruit inspector, but by asking them, "what is the object of your faith?" or "you know you have eternal life because _______"? or "You know you are going to heaven when you die because ________?"

Practical point: This is how I know to share the gospel with them or to invite them to a bible study.

3. There are many people in positions of authority in churches all across the world whose faith is in their religious commitments vs the finished work of Christ on their behalf.

It could be the case that Julien's faith was never in Jesus.
It could also be the case the Julien at one point in his life put His faith in Jesus.

If Julien did put His faith in Jesus then God will be faith to keep all of the promises He made that apply to a person at the moment of faith: Gift of the Holy Spirit, Eternal life, no longer an enemy, new creation, etc. Julien leaving the faith does not revoke God's promises found in scripture that apply to Him. If Julien was a believer and pursing the pagan lifestyle His fellowship not relationship with the Father would have been severed, His will suffer the loss that comes with not building upon the foundation of Christ in eternity.

Project: Read 1 Corinthians chapter 1 and highlight all of the ways Paul affirms their salvation. Read the rest of the book and highlight all of the sins Paul addresses for this saved audience.

That's a new one for me. In the parable of the sower I've never heard of any of the other scenarios besides the good soil being an acceptable scenario. All the others seem very clearly to me to be cautionary tales.

No argument on the confusion regarding the term "saved" in the NT. Honestly, if someone does convert and follow faithfully until death, then it makes perfect sense to say someone was saved at the time of conversion. It also makes perfect sense to say that once a saint is dead that nothing can take them out of God's hands. I guess the whole point of this thread is the argument about the contrary case. As I posted with the Ezekiel passage on page one, God has a pretty consistent history of judging people based on who they are at the time and not who they were or could be.

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But we still have to have faith...which is not a one time verbal acceptance of the belief of Christs resurrection/divnity. OSAS comes across as saying salvific faith is a one time action and nothing else we do after that could change our destiny.

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Salvation from hell and the penalty of sin is comes at a one time moment of faith. It's a one time heart and mind acceptance of Jesus paying for all of my sins completely and rising from the dead. Nothing else we do after that will change our destiny but how we live after that will completely change or earthly experience and how we experience eternity. A believer can life in broken fellow ship with God and suffer forfeit treasure in Heaven.

A couple of observations about a one point in time salvation:

Notice the verb tense. It doesn't say He is saving us. Past tense. Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy

2 Timothy 1: 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."


I think this is one of the most beautiful passages in all of scripture. Look at what happens at the moment of conversion. Not the past tense verb usage and as well as continuous and future salvation.

Romans 5 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. 6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

A person is reconciled to God at moment in time through faith in Jesus.
A believer is rewarded in eternity by how faithfully they lived in this life for Jesus.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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That's a new one for me. In the parable of the sower I've never heard of any of the other scenarios besides the good soil being an acceptable scenario. All the others seem very clearly to me to be cautionary tales.

No argument on the confusion regarding the term "saved" in the NT. Honestly, if someone does convert and follow faithfully until death, then it makes perfect sense to say someone was saved at the time of conversion. It also makes perfect sense to say that once a saint is dead that nothing can take them out of God's hands. I guess the whole point of this thread is the argument about the contrary case. As I posted with the Ezekiel passage on page one, God has a pretty consistent history of judging people based on who they are at the time and not who they were or could be.

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Agreed. I've heard the parable taught that way most of my life that only the good soil is the only 'saved' soil. It is the ideal soil that should be the goal of all believers but I'm not convinced now that all believers will bear fruit.

I now see fruit being a product (not of justification) but of abiding in Christ as a believer and conditional upon walking with the Spirit.

If the good soil is the only saved soil then I have a hard time understanding the purpose of these statements below from Galatians which indicate that believers can do some really rotten stuff if they do not walk by the Spirit.

• 13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
• 14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
• 16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

BluHorseShu said:

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I believe faith is something that continues to grow. Is it not possible for a person to desire to have faith and confesses with their lips but doesn't really feel a deep seeded faith and the Holy Spirit dwelling within them. until after some time working out their faith? When would they have been saved?

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Faith, as far as justification, is a one point in time transaction in which all of our sin is paid for the moment we accept God's offer of forgiveness in Jesus.

Faith is also something that God desires to grown in the life of every believer. The phrase I see most associated with this concept is "pressing on to maturity or completeness"

We see both the one time moment of faith here combined with the lifestyle of faith. It's a both AND vs and EITHER/OR.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live by faith."

The progression in Romans clearly discusses the one time moment of faith and lays down a ton of truth in order to equip believers to live the life of faithfulness. In my eyes, all believers will be saved by the power and promise of God, not all believers will press onto maturity because of their failure to walk by the Spirit.

BluHorseShu said:

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Its the same thing that inspire other Christians who understand that the Holy Spirit helps us perservere in our good works.
But are you saying that its impossible for someone at one moment to accept Christ in their heart and start off producing good works, but then something happens in their lives and they do an about face, reject God's grace and are unrepentant until they day they die? Or would you say they never were 'really saved'? In other words, if they are not preserving in good works and obedience until they die, a person was never really saved? In having a sinful nature, what is to keep someone to genuinely believes in Jesus from, at times, desiring to do Gods will and others to do what they want because there are no more repercussions eternally? I think we are all describing the same thing, its just as a Catholic we believe God calls us to persevere and our continued faith helps us work collaboratively with the Holy Spirit, and not just as puppets. Christs resurrection is the only thing that makes that possible and nothing we do on our own is sufficient. But we still have to have faith...which is not a one time verbal acceptance of the belief of Christs resurrection/divnity. OSAS comes across as saying salvific faith is a one time action and nothing else we do after that could change our destiny.

I believe faith is something that continues to grow. Is it not possible for a person to desire to have faith and confesses with their lips but doesn't really feel a deep seeded faith and the Holy Spirit dwelling within them. until after some time working out their faith? When would they have been saved?

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Great post. The short answer is that - for Reformed Christians - justification and sanctification are decoupled events. When one truly professes their faith in Christ (and gets baptized or is already baptized - a discussion for another thread), we believe they are immediately and totally justified fully with God. We believe that Christ's righteousness is IMPUTED to us by God. God as the sovereign judge declares us righteous based on Christ's atoning work on the cross. We aren't actually righteous (how long does it take you to sin after - or even before - you walk out of church?) but we now have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which allows and motivates us to do good works pleasing to God. The is the idea behind the "new creation".

Sanctification is the process we go through after justification where the Holy Spirit (very slowly in my case) changes us to conform to Jesus. This empowers us to accomplish the 2 Great Commandments. We love God - he loved us first. And then we're able to love others as ourselves.

So sacrificial good works - where we put God and others ahead of ourselves (stewardship is a classic example - time, talent and treasure) are evidence of true and lively faith in Christ. Thus - we believe that good works ARE required to get to heaven. But they don't happen without faith. And when they do happen - we believe that they're all because of the Holy Spirit active in our lives - because without Him, all our good works are, in the words of the prophet - like dirty rags.

The way I look at it is that I am not doing good works to get to Heaven, that comes through faith in Christ. I am doing good works because I want to as prompted by the Spirit. And I discovered nothing gives me more joy than helping those who can not pay me back.

However, I still believe the Gospel is available to all and we have to decide to accept or reject.

dermdoc said:

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The way I look at it is that I am not doing good works to get to Heaven, that comes through faith in Christ. I am doing good works because I want to as prompted by the Spirit. And I discovered nothing gives me more joy than helping those who can not pay me back.

However, I still believe the Gospel is available to all and we have to decide to accept or reject.

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Praise God. We just have a slight disagreement.

TheGreatEscape said:

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dermdoc said:

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The way I look at it is that I am not doing good works to get to Heaven, that comes through faith in Christ. I am doing good works because I want to as prompted by the Spirit. And I discovered nothing gives me more joy than helping those who can not pay me back.

However, I still believe the Gospel is available to all and we have to decide to accept or reject.

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Praise God. We just have a slight disagreement.

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Amen my brother in Christ!

Think of it for a believer when they enter into eternity in heaven - Outside Entrance = "Welcome To All Who Enter" BACK OF ENTRANCE = "CHOSEN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD"

CHOSEN! BUT FREE!

Agilaw said:

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I could go back and forth with you on this verse and the 4 or 5 others that Calvinists point to for their whole theology, but it probably wouldn't be a fruitful exercise.

Some thoughts: If a person were to pick up the scriptures and read them all, would they in any way, shape, or form come to the conclusion (without any outside influence) that the theology of Calvinists is the essence of the scriptures? Do you personally share Christ with others and tell them that Christ loves them and died for them and urge them to repent? Are you and your immediate family members all part of the elect? What about your close friends? How is it that response to the gospel message, and therefore spread of Christianity, is where there is active evangelism taking place? Why is God rejecting/leaving out vast swaths of people/ethnic groups from being elect/chosen?

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Because God is sovereign and he FOREKNOWS (verb, not noun) his people.

"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day" John 6:39.

"I give them [my sheep] eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand" John 10:28-29

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. Romans 8:29-30.


Notice the theme here, He did, He foreknew, He gave, He called, He Justified, He Glorified. He is sovereign.

Since you replied to my post, would you answer the different questions I posed? Then we can discuss.

Agilaw said:

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Since you replied to my post, would you answer the different questions I posed? Then we can discuss.

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What was the question? I'm not Bob. But I may be able to respond. We got hit with the whole open theism thing and everything else.

Some thoughts: If a person were to pick up the scriptures and read them all, would they in any way, shape, or form come to the conclusion (without any outside influence) that the theology of Calvinists is the essence of the scriptures? Do you personally share Christ with others and tell them that Christ loves them and died for them and urge them to repent? Are you and your immediate family members all part of the elect? What about your close friends? How is it that response to the gospel message, and therefore spread of Christianity, is where there is active evangelism taking place? Why is God rejecting/leaving out vast swaths of people/ethnic groups from being elect/chosen?

Agilaw said:

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Some thoughts: If a person were to pick up the scriptures and read them all, would they in any way, shape, or form come to the conclusion (without any outside influence) that the theology of Calvinists is the essence of the scriptures? Do you personally share Christ with others and tell them that Christ loves them and died for them and urge them to repent? Are you and your immediate family members all part of the elect? What about your close friends? How is it that response to the gospel message, and therefore spread of Christianity, is where there is active evangelism taking place? Why is God rejecting/leaving out vast swaths of people/ethnic groups from being elect/chosen?

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And I would like to add the question of how could you have children if you believed they could be preordained to eternal hell.

And you and they could do nothing about it.

This has nothing to do with the sovereignty of God. It has to do with His character.

This book is well written and non confrontational. And short.

Agilaw said:

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Some thoughts: If a person were to pick up the scriptures and read them all, would they in any way, shape, or form come to the conclusion (without any outside influence) that the theology of Calvinists is the essence of the scriptures? Do you personally share Christ with others and tell them that Christ loves them and died for them and urge them to repent? Are you and your immediate family members all part of the elect? What about your close friends? How is it that response to the gospel message, and therefore spread of Christianity, is where there is active evangelism taking place? Why is God rejecting/leaving out vast swaths of people/ethnic groups from being elect/chosen?

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So does God base his love upon his elect after his foreknowledge shows a positive choice for
Christ is made?

The entire discussion about what God knows outside of time is limited to speculation. We have no concept or even ability to conceive of existence outside of time as a succession of moments. The whole of human experience is confined to that paradigm. Trying to explain or rationalize how things work separate from that is a waste of time. That begins to tread on the idea of "what is it like to be God?" And the only answer to that is "we have no idea." Here we approach mystery, and we should limit any positive or cataphatic theological statements accordingly.

Ephesians 1:4 (ESV)

4 "even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love"

TheGreatEscape said:

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Agilaw said:

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Some thoughts: If a person were to pick up the scriptures and read them all, would they in any way, shape, or form come to the conclusion (without any outside influence) that the theology of Calvinists is the essence of the scriptures? Do you personally share Christ with others and tell them that Christ loves them and died for them and urge them to repent? Are you and your immediate family members all part of the elect? What about your close friends? How is it that response to the gospel message, and therefore spread of Christianity, is where there is active evangelism taking place? Why is God rejecting/leaving out vast swaths of people/ethnic groups from being elect/chosen?

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So does God base his love upon his elect after his foreknowledge shows a positive choice for
Christ is made?

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God loves everyone.

And just like the book I linked talks about, that is at the heart of our disagreement.

dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Agilaw said:

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Some thoughts: If a person were to pick up the scriptures and read them all, would they in any way, shape, or form come to the conclusion (without any outside influence) that the theology of Calvinists is the essence of the scriptures? Do you personally share Christ with others and tell them that Christ loves them and died for them and urge them to repent? Are you and your immediate family members all part of the elect? What about your close friends? How is it that response to the gospel message, and therefore spread of Christianity, is where there is active evangelism taking place? Why is God rejecting/leaving out vast swaths of people/ethnic groups from being elect/chosen?

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So does God base his love upon his elect after his foreknowledge shows a positive choice for
Christ is made?

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God loves everyone.

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He does. We get sunshine, technology, air, etc. but there is a special love for his elect.

TheGreatEscape said:

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dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Agilaw said:

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Some thoughts: If a person were to pick up the scriptures and read them all, would they in any way, shape, or form come to the conclusion (without any outside influence) that the theology of Calvinists is the essence of the scriptures? Do you personally share Christ with others and tell them that Christ loves them and died for them and urge them to repent? Are you and your immediate family members all part of the elect? What about your close friends? How is it that response to the gospel message, and therefore spread of Christianity, is where there is active evangelism taking place? Why is God rejecting/leaving out vast swaths of people/ethnic groups from being elect/chosen?

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So does God base his love upon his elect after his foreknowledge shows a positive choice for
Christ is made?

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God loves everyone.

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He does. We get sunshine, technology, air, etc. but there is a special love for his elect.

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But in your theology, God preordains the non elect to hell, correct? And eternal torment.

And gives them no choice. How is that love?

Wouldn't it be better for them if they had never been born?

dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Agilaw said:

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Some thoughts: If a person were to pick up the scriptures and read them all, would they in any way, shape, or form come to the conclusion (without any outside influence) that the theology of Calvinists is the essence of the scriptures? Do you personally share Christ with others and tell them that Christ loves them and died for them and urge them to repent? Are you and your immediate family members all part of the elect? What about your close friends? How is it that response to the gospel message, and therefore spread of Christianity, is where there is active evangelism taking place? Why is God rejecting/leaving out vast swaths of people/ethnic groups from being elect/chosen?

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So does God base his love upon his elect after his foreknowledge shows a positive choice for
Christ is made?

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God loves everyone.

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He does. We get sunshine, technology, air, etc. but there is a special love for his elect.

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But in your theology, God preordains the non elect to hell, correct? And eternal torment.

And gives them no choice. How is that love?

Wouldn't it be better for them if they had never been born?

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Check out the doctrine of God or theology proper. We believe that God's will is immutable.

TheGreatEscape said:

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dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Agilaw said:

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Some thoughts: If a person were to pick up the scriptures and read them all, would they in any way, shape, or form come to the conclusion (without any outside influence) that the theology of Calvinists is the essence of the scriptures? Do you personally share Christ with others and tell them that Christ loves them and died for them and urge them to repent? Are you and your immediate family members all part of the elect? What about your close friends? How is it that response to the gospel message, and therefore spread of Christianity, is where there is active evangelism taking place? Why is God rejecting/leaving out vast swaths of people/ethnic groups from being elect/chosen?

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So does God base his love upon his elect after his foreknowledge shows a positive choice for
Christ is made?

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God loves everyone.

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He does. We get sunshine, technology, air, etc. but there is a special love for his elect.

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But in your theology, God preordains the non elect to hell, correct? And eternal torment.

And gives them no choice. How is that love?

Wouldn't it be better for them if they had never been born?

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Check out the doctrine of God or theology proper. We believe that God's will is immutable.

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So you agree that if you have a child you have no way of knowing whether the child is pre ordained to hell or not?

And that there is nothing you or the child can do about it?

It is okay if you admit you believe that. I just know of very few professed Calvinists who believe that.

But I do not see how you can disagree with that being part of your theology. And how that goes along with the totality of the Bible perplexes me.

dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Agilaw said:

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Some thoughts: If a person were to pick up the scriptures and read them all, would they in any way, shape, or form come to the conclusion (without any outside influence) that the theology of Calvinists is the essence of the scriptures? Do you personally share Christ with others and tell them that Christ loves them and died for them and urge them to repent? Are you and your immediate family members all part of the elect? What about your close friends? How is it that response to the gospel message, and therefore spread of Christianity, is where there is active evangelism taking place? Why is God rejecting/leaving out vast swaths of people/ethnic groups from being elect/chosen?

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So does God base his love upon his elect after his foreknowledge shows a positive choice for
Christ is made?

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God loves everyone.

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He does. We get sunshine, technology, air, etc. but there is a special love for his elect.

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But in your theology, God preordains the non elect to hell, correct? And eternal torment.

And gives them no choice. How is that love?

Wouldn't it be better for them if they had never been born?

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Check out the doctrine of God or theology proper. We believe that God's will is immutable.

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So you agree that if you have a child you have no way of knowing whether the child is pre ordained to hell or not?

And that there is nothing you or the child can do about it?

It is okay if you admit you believe that. I just know of very few professed Calvinists who believe that.

But I do not see how you can disagree with that being part of your theology. And how that goes along with the totality of the Bible perplexes me.

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Perplexes me, too.

Agilaw said:

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Some thoughts: If a person were to pick up the scriptures and read them all, would they in any way, shape, or form come to the conclusion (without any outside influence) that the theology of Calvinists is the essence of the scriptures?

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First define the Theology of Calvinists (or Reformed)?

Quote:

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Do you personally share Christ with others and tell them that Christ loves them and died for them and urge them to repent?

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Of course I share the Gospel with others.

Quote:

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Are you and your immediate family members all part of the elect? What about your close friends?

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6 But the righteousness based on faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 "or 'Who will descend into the abyss?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.


The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Ro 10:610.

You are asking the wrong question. You want to know who has God called upon to have faith (a question I can't answer). But if they have faith, they will become justified as God's righteousness can be imputed to them as they are in Christ. And if justified, they can now be reconciled to God and at peace. And if reconciled, they can be in God's grace. And if in God's grace, they are no longer condemned to death.

Quote:

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How is it that response to the gospel message, and therefore spread of Christianity, is where there is active evangelism taking place? Why is God rejecting/leaving out vast swaths of people/ethnic groups from being elect/chosen?

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I'm not sure exactly what you are asking in the first part. Are you arguing for universalism? As for the second part, you are asking a question that was answered by Paul already a long time ago.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring (Those who have faith or believe). 9 For this is what the promise said: "About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son." 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or badin order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls 12 she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? (Your question was asked a long time ago) By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God (God alone is sovereign), who has mercy


The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Ro 9:616.

I was asking the Great Escape to respond since they don't answer the difficult questions of their TULP theology.

Since you jumped in, I'll respond to your post.

You also didn't answer the difficult questions I posed
See below. You know if your kids, family, and close friends are part of the elect. Why do you struggle to answer that question? Just say yes, me and my friends and close family members have all been blessed to be part of the elect.

And for your other response saying I didn't ask the right question. You are wrong. I asked a question you don't feel comfortable answering. So please answer the question I posed, not the one you want me to ask.

Another one for you too. Did Jesus die for all. Meaning everyone. That's an easy yes or no answer. I look forward to your reply.


Quote:
Are you and your immediate family members all part of the elect? What about your close friends?
6 But the righteousness based on faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 "or 'Who will descend into the abyss?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.


The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Ro 10:610.

You are asking the wrong question. You want to know who has God called upon to have faith (a question I can't answer). But if they have faith, they will become justified as God's righteousness can be imputed to them as they are in Christ. And if justified, they can now be reconciled to God and at peace. And if reconciled, they can be in God's grace. And if in God's grace, they are no longer condemned to death.
Quote:
How is it that response to the gospel message, and therefore spread of Christianity, is where there is active evangelism taking place? Why is God rejecting/leaving out vast swaths of people/ethnic groups from being elect/chosen?

I'm not sure exactly what you are asking in the first part. Are you arguing for universalism? As for the second part, you are asking a question that was answered by Paul already a long time ago.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring (Those who have faith or believe). 9 For this is what the promise said: "About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son." 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or badin order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls 12 she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? (Your question was asked a long time ago) By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God (God alone is sovereign), who has mercy

Why are there so few elect in non Christian countries? Or are they elect and not know it?

dermdoc said:

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Why are there so few elect in non Christian countries? Or are they elect and not know it?

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and what about the rest of the world outside of Israel during the Old Testament? What about all of those?

No cell phones, no internet, and few could read and write…

TheGreatEscape said:

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dermdoc said:

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Why are there so few elect in non Christian countries? Or are they elect and not know it?

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and what about the rest of the world outside of Israel during the Old Testament? What about all of those?

No cell phones, no internet, and few could read and write…

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Great question.

What do you think happened to them?

Do you think all the "non elect" will be eternally tormented in hell?

dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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dermdoc said:

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Why are there so few elect in non Christian countries? Or are they elect and not know it?

---

and what about the rest of the world outside of Israel during the Old Testament? What about all of those?

No cell phones, no internet, and few could read and write…

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Great question.

What do you think happened to them?

Do you think all the "non elect" will be eternally tormented in hell?

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Do you believe there are other ways to heaven without grace through faith?

dermdoc said:

---

TheGreatEscape said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

TheGreatEscape said:

---

Agilaw said:

---

Some thoughts: If a person were to pick up the scriptures and read them all, would they in any way, shape, or form come to the conclusion (without any outside influence) that the theology of Calvinists is the essence of the scriptures? Do you personally share Christ with others and tell them that Christ loves them and died for them and urge them to repent? Are you and your immediate family members all part of the elect? What about your close friends? How is it that response to the gospel message, and therefore spread of Christianity, is where there is active evangelism taking place? Why is God rejecting/leaving out vast swaths of people/ethnic groups from being elect/chosen?

---

So does God base his love upon his elect after his foreknowledge shows a positive choice for
Christ is made?

---

God loves everyone.

---

He does. We get sunshine, technology, air, etc. but there is a special love for his elect.

---

But in your theology, God preordains the non elect to hell, correct? And eternal torment.

And gives them no choice. How is that love?

Wouldn't it be better for them if they had never been born?

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Please read Romans 9. I've noticed you make some strong accusations on God's part in this thread brother, I lovingly caution against that.

You are trying to equate two things that are not equal and the argument you make would insinuate that God actively puts sin into people's lives (or to be sinful). God actively being involved in the salvation of His people does not equal God is actively trying to insure the remaining people are condemned because that is already the default state.

Think about the example of Pharaoh. Did God actually harden Pharoah's heart, make him sinful, then judged him for it (active, God put sin into someone's heart then accused him of being sinful which is unjust)? Or did God remove the restraint of Pharoah's evil inclinations (power and corruptibility) and let his natural tendency to do evil take over (passive)? The answer to that question should be the same way you view predestination. All throughout the Bible God actively works on others and passively leaves others to their evil ways. Both are ways God achieves His will and His glory. But they are not equal ways like you are insinuation.