The Banned said:

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I hope you don't take these rebuttals too harshly. OSAS was very formative during my late teens early 20s. It got me to leave the Catholic Church and really seek Jesus for the first time. The problem with OSAS that led me back to the Church was the lack of coherency. I'm glad you're here and hope you continue to take a good look at this issue.

As Zobel has pointed out, and as you have somewhat nodded to, it's not how we feel that determines if we go to Heaven. It's what we DO. Not because our actions our worth anything whatsoever, but because we act in obedience. But WE have to act. We have to stay the course. God is isn't the puppeteer and we are not marionettes.

To say that once you have encountered Jesus you can be saved forever no matter how many sins you commit is true… as long as you repent of each and every one of those sins and try to live better. But you have to take the action to repent and live differently. The problem with OSAS folks is they (most of them at least) believe that anyone who falls away just never believed in the first place. It leads to a much more insecure position for those that really want to believe but don't "feel it". Or used to feel it but no longer do. It's not the way the Fathers viewed our faith. Feelings won't get you to Heaven anymore than works will. Faith in Jesus must be lived out in our daily routine or it's not faith at all. Keep looking and God Bless

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Great post. We are all brothers/sisters in Christ.

I believe that "taking up your cross" daily means dying to yourself and living for Jesus whether you "feel" like it or not. It is a daily decision. And that is why I believe I have been saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved. But it takes a conscious effort on my part to stay in Jesus.

Thankfully, it brings great joy and a light yoke.

Zobel said:

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You didn't answer my question. I didn't ask about the r crowns. I asked what criteria is used to judge our lives. What separates the sheep from the goats? What does Christ say?

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Works. The sheep fed the hungry, gave water to the thirsty, extended hospitality, and visited the sick and those in prison.

The goats did not.

Says nothing about the sinner's prayer, a public profession of faith, altar call, proselytizing, "winning" people to Christ, or once saved always saved.

It is daily obedience to do what Christ stated the sheep did.

Zobel said:

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Yeah, and even more interesting to me is He doesn't say "you didn't do a bunch of these long lists of bad things". Obviously we should avoid sin, but that isn't the focus. The focus is positive - love others, and in doing so love Christ.

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Agree. It is about a whole new lifestyle. A change of heart and mind. Which is what repent really means.

I think a lot of the problems with beliefs such "once saved always saved" or the variation we are seeing here is that the definition of faith being used here is not one that we would find in Scripture. This wasn't a Reformation idea, but one that came from the more radical groups that sprung after the fact.

To have faith and be justified is not merely a single act. It's an ongoing process that will only be complete upon our death in this life or Jesus coming back. Whichever comes first (and I pray for Jesus to come).

Justification is a past, present, and future event. I was justified, I am justified and I will be justified before God because of the death and resurrection of Jesus.

But faith also includes sanctification and growing in God. God called on us to follow His commandments, and so part of faith is in doing so as we grow closer to Him. Not that we aren't sinful in nearly ever moment of our lives (or every moment). Original sin taints every action we have. But the Scriptures talk about us struggling forward toward our reward.

So we strive forward knowing that without faith in God, we will slip back into the chains of sin.

"To have faith and be justified is not merely a single act. It's an ongoing process that will only be complete upon our death in this life or Jesus coming back. Whichever comes first (and I pray for Jesus to come).

Justification is a past, present, and future event. I was justified, I am justified and I will be justified before God because of the death and resurrection of Jesus.

But faith also includes sanctification and growing in God. God called on us to follow His commandments, and so part of faith is in doing so as we grow closer to Him. Not that we aren't sinful in nearly ever moment of our lives (or every moment). Original sin taints every action we have. But the Scriptures talk about us struggling forward toward our reward. " -Agliving

I believe in all of this.

"The rest, the unregenerate, do not have the same concern. They will go about blaspheming and are frequently given into idolatry and lust of the flesh and the pride of life..living in the flesh."


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This does not square with the witness of Jesus as the Good Shepherd. I fully see why he will leave the righteous alone in the pasture to seek out those stray sheep. Why? Because if they will only repent...

PabloSerna said:

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"The rest, the unregenerate, do not have the same concern. They will go about blaspheming and are frequently given into idolatry and lust of the flesh and the pride of life..living in the flesh."


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This does not square with the witness of Jesus as the Good Shepherd. I fully see why he will leave the righteous alone in the pasture to seek out those stray sheep. Why? Because if they will only repent...

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Sure thing…

TheGreatEscape said:

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PabloSerna said:

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"The rest, the unregenerate, do not have the same concern. They will go about blaspheming and are frequently given into idolatry and lust of the flesh and the pride of life..living in the flesh."


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This does not square with the witness of Jesus as the Good Shepherd. I fully see why he will leave the righteous alone in the pasture to seek out those stray sheep. Why? Because if they will only repent...

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Sure thing…

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So do you believe the non believers have a choice? Or are they damned without a chance?

dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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PabloSerna said:

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"The rest, the unregenerate, do not have the same concern. They will go about blaspheming and are frequently given into idolatry and lust of the flesh and the pride of life..living in the flesh."


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This does not square with the witness of Jesus as the Good Shepherd. I fully see why he will leave the righteous alone in the pasture to seek out those stray sheep. Why? Because if they will only repent...

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Sure thing…

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So do you believe the non believers have a choice? Or are they damned without a chance?

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We all have a choice. But I personally believe regeneration comes before faith (John 3). Jesus told Nicodemus that he couldn't even see the kingdom of heaven without first being born again.

I believe in double. But you answered my question that it does imply that without it…If a little can get you in, then a little can get you out.

John 5:13

13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

"That you may know"

That is called internal assurance.

When one becomes "born again", they do not lose their free will. Their conversion and acceptance of Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior can be genuine in their youth but still be rejected later in life.

If at the end of a person's life on earth, they have freely chosen to be separated from God, then that is where they will spend eternity regardless of how many salvation prayers they have prayed.


ETA: by "rejected", I am referring to the individual rejecting their own previous conversion. Just as we have the freedom to embrace Jesus, we also still have the freedom to later reject him.

TheGreatEscape said:

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"To have faith and be justified is not merely a single act. It's an ongoing process that will only be complete upon our death in this life or Jesus coming back. Whichever comes first (and I pray for Jesus to come).

Justification is a past, present, and future event. I was justified, I am justified and I will be justified before God because of the death and resurrection of Jesus.

But faith also includes sanctification and growing in God. God called on us to follow His commandments, and so part of faith is in doing so as we grow closer to Him. Not that we aren't sinful in nearly ever moment of our lives (or every moment). Original sin taints every action we have. But the Scriptures talk about us struggling forward toward our reward. " -Agliving

I believe in all of this.

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But this precludes "if saved...always saved" in that I can choose to turn away from the faith and forgo the promise of Jesus Christ. Because my salvation is assured today, does not mean it is guaranteed tomorrow. We have freedom to deny God and He will allow this.

I found this to be a good summation:

"Lutherans have often been perplexed by the expression, "once saved, always saved," an articulation similar to the traditional Reformed concept of the perseverance of the saints. If the expression were true (i.e., in accordance with Scripture), Scripture's warnings against apostasy would be meaningless. This saying must therefore be rejected as false (i.e., contrary to Scripture). One dare not try to solve the mystery of apostasy or the continuation of sin and evil in the lives of believers by denying that God remains faithful to his promises, which believers receive from their first encounter with the Word of forgiveness and new life, in baptism or in some oral or written form. Paul's words that "[nothing] will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom 8:3839) give the assurance that "if we are faithless, he remains faithfulfor he cannot deny himself" (2 Tim 2:13). The doctrine of election exists precisely to anchor the promise of God in Christ and to give the assurance of faith to the believer."

Dad-O-Lot said:

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When one becomes "born again", they do not lose their free will. Their conversion and acceptance of Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior can be genuine in their youth but still be rejected later in life.

If at the end of a person's life on earth, they have freely chosen to be separated from God, then that is where they will spend eternity regardless of how many salvation prayers they have prayed.


ETA: by "rejected", I am referring to the individual rejecting their own previous conversion. Just as we have the freedom to embrace Jesus, we also still have the freedom to later reject him.

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Agree. But that is not possible with double predestination. I guess it does absolve parents of their child's faith walk and eternal destination.
They can not make their child elect.

Psalm 97:10 (ESV)

"O you who love the Lord, hate evil!
He preserves the lives of his saints;
he delivers them from the hand of the wicked."

TheGreatEscape said:

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Psalm 97:10 (ESV)

"O you who love the Lord, hate evil!
He preserves the lives of his saints;
he delivers them from the hand of the wicked."

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With all due respect, that is not the debate. I used to be OSAS also but it became not viable to me Biblically or through church tradition.

Well, we disagree on the topic. That's been very clear.

Hebrews 13:5 (ESV)

5 Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."

TheGreatEscape said:

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Well, we disagree on the topic. That's been very clear.

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I would advise you to pray around my original 1/2 question. Truly ask if someone can fall away of their OWN accord. If you don't think a person is capable of accepting faith and recanting, you'll be safe. But if you have any experience with someone who has truly wrestled with the faith, I think you'll struggle with your theology.

Zobel said:

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He does them apart from you? You're like a marionette?

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An electron has mass. Compared to the proton it revolves around? Such I would argue is the relative synergistic value of our free will and cooperation next to God's providence. Clay vs. Potter.

It doesn't matter how you analogize it. Men are either free or not. If we are not, then why are we judged by our works?

The Banned said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Well, we disagree on the topic. That's been very clear.

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I would advise you to pray around my original 1/2 question. Truly ask if someone can fall away of their OWN accord. If you don't think a person is capable of accepting faith and recanting, you'll be safe. But if you have any experience with someone who has truly wrestled with the faith, I think you'll struggle with your theology.

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Well, you also have to resolve the fact that you believe God pre ordains people, His own creation, to eternal torment hell and they have no choice in the matter.

Think about what that says about God's character.

The amount of sin and wickedness in the world definitely brings up some questions about this analogy as well.

The Banned said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Well, we disagree on the topic. That's been very clear.

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I would advise you to pray around my original 1/2 question. Truly ask if someone can fall away of their OWN accord. If you don't think a person is capable of accepting faith and recanting, you'll be safe. But if you have any experience with someone who has truly wrestled with the faith, I think you'll struggle with your theology.

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The wheat grow with the tares. So lest we self-deceive ourselves, we must persevere in the faith. Obedience is what the Gospel does.

John 6:39 (ESV)

39 "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day."

Zobel said:

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It doesn't matter how you analogize it. Men are either free or not. If we are not, then why are we judged by our works?

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As much as I'd like to take credit for the Potter and clay, they are St. Paul's analogy I'm sad to say.

Our friend St. Augustine puts it like this: "For He is not truly called Almighty if He cannot do whatsoever He pleases, or if the power of His almighty will is hindered by the will of any creature whatsoever."

Do good works have meaning without Christ? Sorry - I'm not seeing the link between free will and judgement (really - no snark). I'm old and slow. Help me out.

TheGreatEscape said:

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The Banned said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Well, we disagree on the topic. That's been very clear.

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I would advise you to pray around my original 1/2 question. Truly ask if someone can fall away of their OWN accord. If you don't think a person is capable of accepting faith and recanting, you'll be safe. But if you have any experience with someone who has truly wrestled with the faith, I think you'll struggle with your theology.

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The wheat grow with the tares. So lest we self-deceive ourselves, we must persevere in the faith. Obedience is what the Gospel does.

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Obedience is what the gospel does? The gospel makes us obedient or we choose to be obedient to the gospel? We persevere in the faith, or faith makes us persevere and we can not wander?

I'm glad you're engaging in this. It's a very important theological point that forms what we do next.

The Banned said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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The Banned said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Well, we disagree on the topic. That's been very clear.

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I would advise you to pray around my original 1/2 question. Truly ask if someone can fall away of their OWN accord. If you don't think a person is capable of accepting faith and recanting, you'll be safe. But if you have any experience with someone who has truly wrestled with the faith, I think you'll struggle with your theology.

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The wheat grow with the tares. So lest we self-deceive ourselves, we must persevere in the faith. Obedience is what the Gospel does.

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Obedience is what the gospel does? The gospel makes us obedient or we choose to be obedient to the gospel? We persevere in the faith, or faith makes us persevere and we can not wander?

I'm glad you're engaging in this. It's a very important theological point that forms what we do next.

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It's a relationship. God is my father and I don't put
the Father to the test because I love Him because He first
loved me.

Zobel said:

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It's actually not St Paul's either… it was the Word, as told told the Prophet Jeremiah.

We don't circumscribe His will. He chooses to give us freedom.

Good works come from Christ, when we do them we are animated by His Spirit, and we are His Body; He can look on our works as good because they ARE good, because they are His.

At any rate, a God who judges people who have no free will is a strange image. He is literally judging His own action. Note this view also ascribes sin to God, or at least it seems to.

This ties to judgment because in the end, being justified and made righteous happens through good works. When we allow God to work in and through and with us, we become more like Him. It changes us. And we are judged by what we have done, which is identified with who we are and what we have become.

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Touch on Jeremiah. Walked into that one. Old and slow. Back in the day I'd have seen that one coming.

I would argue that being justified and made righteous happens only because of our faith in Christ. Our works become good - in God's eyes - only because of our faith in Him. His righteousness is imputed to us. How else could we be "new creations"? The Holy Spirit therefore gets the credit for my good works.

But let's talk empirically - our personal experience with sin and blessing. When you've overcome a particularly pernicious sin in your life, or experienced an amazing blessing - how much do you really think you had to do with it? In my experience, those things happen almost in spite of me. I'm surprised that I find myself being more generous, or not screaming at the guy who cut me off, or wanting to spend more time in prayer. In short, my sanctification happens if not against my will - certainly by dragging it kicking and screaming.

I see these things as evidence (I hope) of the Holy Spirit working in my life. That just makes more sense to me empirically. Way more than the idea of righteousness being actually imparted to me. I am more - totally really - a drag than thrust in the equation I guess.