Is not that free will?TheGreatEscape said:
All that is required is faith and repentance. Obedience is something that comes from the power of
the Gospel, the Holy Spirit, and the finished work of Christ.
dermdoc said:Is not that free will?TheGreatEscape said:
All that is required is faith and repentance. Obedience is something that comes from the power of
the Gospel, the Holy Spirit, and the finished work of Christ.
And if it is once saved always saved, is it once damned always damned?
Do you believe in double predestination?
TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:Is not that free will?TheGreatEscape said:
All that is required is faith and repentance. Obedience is something that comes from the power of
the Gospel, the Holy Spirit, and the finished work of Christ.
And if it is once saved always saved, is it once damned always damned?
Do you believe in double predestination?
Is that the topic here?
Do you believe in the veneration of saints?
dermdoc said:TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:Is not that free will?TheGreatEscape said:
All that is required is faith and repentance. Obedience is something that comes from the power of
the Gospel, the Holy Spirit, and the finished work of Christ.
And if it is once saved always saved, is it once damned always damned?
Do you believe in double predestination?
Is that the topic here?
Do you believe in the veneration of saints?
Yes.
You started the op saying once saved always saved.
So I assume you are a Calvinist.
Which means if you believe Calvin's theology, then you believe in double predestination which says once damned, always damned.
Look, I agree with you. Most Calvinists do not actually believe what Calvin believed.
I know of very few Christians of any theology who actually believe God pre ordains people to hell.
So you refuse to answer the question. And that is why I am not a Calvinist,TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:Is not that free will?TheGreatEscape said:
All that is required is faith and repentance. Obedience is something that comes from the power of
the Gospel, the Holy Spirit, and the finished work of Christ.
And if it is once saved always saved, is it once damned always damned?
Do you believe in double predestination?
Is that the topic here?
Do you believe in the veneration of saints?
Yes.
You started the op saying once saved always saved.
So I assume you are a Calvinist.
Which means if you believe Calvin's theology, then you believe in double predestination which says once damned, always damned.
Look, I agree with you. Most Calvinists do not actually believe what Calvin believed.
I know of very few Christians of any theology who actually believe God pre ordains people to hell.
If saved…always saved.
dermdoc said:So you refuse to answer the question. And that is why I am not a Calvinist,TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:Is not that free will?TheGreatEscape said:
All that is required is faith and repentance. Obedience is something that comes from the power of
the Gospel, the Holy Spirit, and the finished work of Christ.
And if it is once saved always saved, is it once damned always damned?
Do you believe in double predestination?
Is that the topic here?
Do you believe in the veneration of saints?
Yes.
You started the op saying once saved always saved.
So I assume you are a Calvinist.
Which means if you believe Calvin's theology, then you believe in double predestination which says once damned, always damned.
Look, I agree with you. Most Calvinists do not actually believe what Calvin believed.
I know of very few Christians of any theology who actually believe God pre ordains people to hell.
If saved…always saved.
Makes God into a monster.
I actually believe that. But that is not Calvinism; That is free will.TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:So you refuse to answer the question. And that is why I am not a Calvinist,TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:Is not that free will?TheGreatEscape said:
All that is required is faith and repentance. Obedience is something that comes from the power of
the Gospel, the Holy Spirit, and the finished work of Christ.
And if it is once saved always saved, is it once damned always damned?
Do you believe in double predestination?
Is that the topic here?
Do you believe in the veneration of saints?
Yes.
You started the op saying once saved always saved.
So I assume you are a Calvinist.
Which means if you believe Calvin's theology, then you believe in double predestination which says once damned, always damned.
Look, I agree with you. Most Calvinists do not actually believe what Calvin believed.
I know of very few Christians of any theology who actually believe God pre ordains people to hell.
If saved…always saved.
Makes God into a monster.
Only if you believe in a love and grace that allows people to go to hell…
dermdoc said:I actually believe that. But that is not Calvinism; Tha is free will.TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:So you refuse to answer the question. And that is why I am not a Calvinist,TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:Is not that free will?TheGreatEscape said:
All that is required is faith and repentance. Obedience is something that comes from the power of
the Gospel, the Holy Spirit, and the finished work of Christ.
And if it is once saved always saved, is it once damned always damned?
Do you believe in double predestination?
Is that the topic here?
Do you believe in the veneration of saints?
Yes.
You started the op saying once saved always saved.
So I assume you are a Calvinist.
Which means if you believe Calvin's theology, then you believe in double predestination which says once damned, always damned.
Look, I agree with you. Most Calvinists do not actually believe what Calvin believed.
I know of very few Christians of any theology who actually believe God pre ordains people to hell.
If saved…always saved.
Makes God into a monster.
Only if you believe in a love and grace that allows people to go to hell…
No.TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:I actually believe that. But that is not Calvinism; Tha is free will.TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:So you refuse to answer the question. And that is why I am not a Calvinist,TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:Is not that free will?TheGreatEscape said:
All that is required is faith and repentance. Obedience is something that comes from the power of
the Gospel, the Holy Spirit, and the finished work of Christ.
And if it is once saved always saved, is it once damned always damned?
Do you believe in double predestination?
Is that the topic here?
Do you believe in the veneration of saints?
Yes.
You started the op saying once saved always saved.
So I assume you are a Calvinist.
Which means if you believe Calvin's theology, then you believe in double predestination which says once damned, always damned.
Look, I agree with you. Most Calvinists do not actually believe what Calvin believed.
I know of very few Christians of any theology who actually believe God pre ordains people to hell.
If saved…always saved.
Makes God into a monster.
Only if you believe in a love and grace that allows people to go to hell…
So you don't believe in "If saved…always saved."
dermdoc said:No.TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:I actually believe that. But that is not Calvinism; Tha is free will.TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:So you refuse to answer the question. And that is why I am not a Calvinist,TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:Is not that free will?TheGreatEscape said:
All that is required is faith and repentance. Obedience is something that comes from the power of
the Gospel, the Holy Spirit, and the finished work of Christ.
And if it is once saved always saved, is it once damned always damned?
Do you believe in double predestination?
Is that the topic here?
Do you believe in the veneration of saints?
Yes.
You started the op saying once saved always saved.
So I assume you are a Calvinist.
Which means if you believe Calvin's theology, then you believe in double predestination which says once damned, always damned.
Look, I agree with you. Most Calvinists do not actually believe what Calvin believed.
I know of very few Christians of any theology who actually believe God pre ordains people to hell.
If saved…always saved.
Makes God into a monster.
Only if you believe in a love and grace that allows people to go to hell…
So you don't believe in "If saved…always saved."
Do you believe if damned, always damned?
Do you believe in double predestination?TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:No.TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:I actually believe that. But that is not Calvinism; Tha is free will.TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:So you refuse to answer the question. And that is why I am not a Calvinist,TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:Is not that free will?TheGreatEscape said:
All that is required is faith and repentance. Obedience is something that comes from the power of
the Gospel, the Holy Spirit, and the finished work of Christ.
And if it is once saved always saved, is it once damned always damned?
Do you believe in double predestination?
Is that the topic here?
Do you believe in the veneration of saints?
Yes.
You started the op saying once saved always saved.
So I assume you are a Calvinist.
Which means if you believe Calvin's theology, then you believe in double predestination which says once damned, always damned.
Look, I agree with you. Most Calvinists do not actually believe what Calvin believed.
I know of very few Christians of any theology who actually believe God pre ordains people to hell.
If saved…always saved.
Makes God into a monster.
Only if you believe in a love and grace that allows people to go to hell…
So you don't believe in "If saved…always saved."
Do you believe if damned, always damned?
That's quite a shaky foundation to base your faith in, for instance, how much you fast, pray, experience, and obedience to God's commands.
Your faith is either in your faith or in the Son of God and his finished work.
dermdoc said:Do you believe in double predestination?TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:No.TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:I actually believe that. But that is not Calvinism; Tha is free will.TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:So you refuse to answer the question. And that is why I am not a Calvinist,TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:Is not that free will?TheGreatEscape said:
All that is required is faith and repentance. Obedience is something that comes from the power of
the Gospel, the Holy Spirit, and the finished work of Christ.
And if it is once saved always saved, is it once damned always damned?
Do you believe in double predestination?
Is that the topic here?
Do you believe in the veneration of saints?
Yes.
You started the op saying once saved always saved.
So I assume you are a Calvinist.
Which means if you believe Calvin's theology, then you believe in double predestination which says once damned, always damned.
Look, I agree with you. Most Calvinists do not actually believe what Calvin believed.
I know of very few Christians of any theology who actually believe God pre ordains people to hell.
If saved…always saved.
Makes God into a monster.
Only if you believe in a love and grace that allows people to go to hell…
So you don't believe in "If saved…always saved."
Do you believe if damned, always damned?
That's quite a shaky foundation to base your faith in, for instance, how much you fast, pray, experience, and obedience to God's commands.
Your faith is either in your faith or in the Son of God and his finished work.
Why won't you answer that question?
And my foundation is very strong.
TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:Do you believe in double predestination?TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:No.TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:I actually believe that. But that is not Calvinism; Tha is free will.TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:So you refuse to answer the question. And that is why I am not a Calvinist,TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:TheGreatEscape said:dermdoc said:Is not that free will?TheGreatEscape said:
All that is required is faith and repentance. Obedience is something that comes from the power of
the Gospel, the Holy Spirit, and the finished work of Christ.
And if it is once saved always saved, is it once damned always damned?
Do you believe in double predestination?
Is that the topic here?
Do you believe in the veneration of saints?
Yes.
You started the op saying once saved always saved.
So I assume you are a Calvinist.
Which means if you believe Calvin's theology, then you believe in double predestination which says once damned, always damned.
Look, I agree with you. Most Calvinists do not actually believe what Calvin believed.
I know of very few Christians of any theology who actually believe God pre ordains people to hell.
If saved…always saved.
Makes God into a monster.
Only if you believe in a love and grace that allows people to go to hell…
So you don't believe in "If saved…always saved."
Do you believe if damned, always damned?
That's quite a shaky foundation to base your faith in, for instance, how much you fast, pray, experience, and obedience to God's commands.
Your faith is either in your faith or in the Son of God and his finished work.
Why won't you answer that question?
And my foundation is very strong.
Why do you have to believe in double predestination or are you implying that you must in order to believe in "If saved…always saved."
TheGreatEscape said:
Human responsibility and divine sovereignty are friends.
But he still hasn't answered my question.
Do you have to believe in double predestination in order to believe in "If saved…always saved."
Zobel said:
What's the NT say we're judged by?
Zobel said:
If we're judged by our works, what are you talking about then?
"At best whst you're saying is a useless tautology. At worst it's a vain promise t that is directly counter to the unanimous teaching of the scriptures on the topic.
Zobel said:
You didn't answer my question. I didn't ask about the r crowns. I asked what criteria is used to judge our lives. What separates the sheep from the goats? What does Christ say?
Zobel said:
So in the end what is the point of your teaching? If the people who DO the will of the father - if they persist in good works, if the persevere, if the do the works they were created to do, by the grace given to them from God - what point is there speculating about some kind of zen meditation on if saved are saved?
What benefit is there teaching this, if it isn't how St. Paul or St. John or. St. Peter or Christ Himself taught?
Zobel said:
It wasn't a yes no question.
Zobel said:
That passage is explaining why people who apparently are losers in this life, as the world judges, are not missing out on the promises of God. It is a promise of justice for those who do not receive justice in this life. It is talking about the Day of Judgment, the Day of the Lord. The reason God delays the Day is out of patience and loving kindness, so all may have a chance to repent.
Note St Peter continues "the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God for and hastening the coming of the day of God?"
Zobel said:
He does them apart from you? You're like a marionette?
The Banned said:
I hope you don't take these rebuttals too harshly. OSAS was very formative during my late teens early 20s. It got me to leave the Catholic Church and really seek Jesus for the first time. The problem with OSAS that led me back to the Church was the lack of coherency. I'm glad you're here and hope you continue to take a good look at this issue.
As Zobel has pointed out, and as you have somewhat nodded to, it's not how we feel that determines if we go to Heaven. It's what we DO. Not because our actions our worth anything whatsoever, but because we act in obedience. But WE have to act. We have to stay the course. God is isn't the puppeteer and we are not marionettes.
To say that once you have encountered Jesus you can be saved forever no matter how many sins you commit is true… as long as you repent of each and every one of those sins and try to live better. But you have to take the action to repent and live differently. The problem with OSAS folks is they (most of them at least) believe that anyone who falls away just never believed in the first place. It leads to a much more insecure position for those that really want to believe but don't "feel it". Or used to feel it but no longer do. It's not the way the Fathers viewed our faith. Feelings won't get you to Heaven anymore than works will. Faith in Jesus must be lived out in our daily routine or it's not faith at all. Keep looking and God Bless
The Banned said:
I hope you don't take these rebuttals too harshly. OSAS was very formative during my late teens early 20s. It got me to leave the Catholic Church and really seek Jesus for the first time. The problem with OSAS that led me back to the Church was the lack of coherency. I'm glad you're here and hope you continue to take a good look at this issue.
As Zobel has pointed out, and as you have somewhat nodded to, it's not how we feel that determines if we go to Heaven. It's what we DO. Not because our actions our worth anything whatsoever, but because we act in obedience. But WE have to act. We have to stay the course. God is isn't the puppeteer and we are not marionettes.
To say that once you have encountered Jesus you can be saved forever no matter how many sins you commit is true… as long as you repent of each and every one of those sins and try to live better. But you have to take the action to repent and live differently. The problem with OSAS folks is they (most of them at least) believe that anyone who falls away just never believed in the first place. It leads to a much more insecure position for those that really want to believe but don't "feel it". Or used to feel it but no longer do. It's not the way the Fathers viewed our faith. Feelings won't get you to Heaven anymore than works will. Faith in Jesus must be lived out in our daily routine or it's not faith at all. Keep looking and God Bless
