Does anybody really believe that Constantine was a Pope, and not emperor? And that the Pope "passes a law?"

So funny...

I am not a SDA nor do I agree with their theology. However, the SDAs I've known have been the most godly, humble people I've known. Their churches are also a reflection of what the church should be in terms of ethnicity and financial status. That is, they have truly ethnically mixed congregations and are simple and humble, giving no special attention or status to those of their congregation who might be wealthy.

Their schools are also committed strongly to pure scientific research. For example, Loma Linda Medical School (a SDA school) is at the forefront of many medical advances. I believe it may have been one of the first, if not the first, to utilize proton radiation in the treatment of cancers.

Unlike many of the various sects, I am convinced that SDAs are true Christians, although mistaken on some aspects of their theology. Those aspects on which they are mistaken are not central to what it means to be a Christian. It's very easy to pick at the differences between us rather than recognizing and valuing the strengths that each group brings to the faith.

Also, I've never met a fat SDA. I suspect that may be because they're vegetarians.

The early Church moved the worship day to Sunday, as that was the day Jesus rose from the dead...The Pope never "passed a law" on anything...

Thaddeus73 said:

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The early Church moved the worship day to Sunday, as that was the day Jesus rose from the dead...The Pope never "passed a law" on anything...

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This is not so. The Catholic Catechism (2174) still quotes "we gather on the day of the SUN." The fact that Yeshua rose at the head of the week (actually that was Saturday night according to scripture and Jewish reckoning), is just a coincidental and convenient excuse.


https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7O.HTM

In the 3rd Century AD, one of your "church fathers" said this:

"Again, as to the assertion that the Sabbath has been abolished, we deny that He has abolished it plainly; for He was Himself also Lord of the Sabbath. "


https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0616.htm


And as late as the 5th century another, this:

"The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria. There are several cities and villages in Egypt where, contrary to the usage established elsewhere, the people meet together on Sabbath evenings, and, although they have dined previously, partake of the mysteries."

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/26027.htm

So, in the 5th Century, Sabbath keeping was abolished only in Rome and Alexandria. And to Rome, goes the spoils. BTW, the Sabbath evening gatherings were Havdalas to honor the Sabbath, by closing out the Sabbath.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havdalah


And another:

"For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this. "

That ancient tradition is pagan sun worship on the SUN(god)Day.

And from the Council of Trent:

https://www.wwco.com/religion/believe/believe_104.html

You acknowledge that abandoning the Sabbath for Sunday worship is nowhere to be found in scripture.

"The written word explicitly enjoins the observance of the Seventh Day as the Sabbath. They do NOT observe the seventh day, but REJECT IT! If they do truely hold the scriptures alone as their standard, they would be observing the Seventh Day as in enjoined in the scripture throughout! Yet they now only REJECT THE OBSERVANCE OF THE SABBATH ENJOINED IN THE WRITTEN WORD, but they have adopted and do practice the observance of SUNDAY, for which they have ONLY THE TRADITION OF THE CHURCH...

Thaddeus73 said:

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The early Church moved the worship day to Sunday, as that was the day Jesus rose from the dead...The Pope never "passed a law" on anything...

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This is correct and the basis for the CCC 2175:

Sunday - fulfillment of the sabbath
2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:107

"Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death".108

2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."109 Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.

+++

106 St. Justin, I Apol. 67:PG 6,429 and 432.
107 Cf. 1 Cor 10:11.
108 St. Ignatius of Antioch, Ad Magn. 9,1:SCh 10,88.
109 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh II-II,122,4.
110 CIC, can. 1246 1.

My friend you are WAY off in the woods. I posted a few more sections for the RCC basis on the Lord's Day above for reference. In short, we are not sun worshippers, ok? ok. The key word is FULFILLMENT.

8th day worship is the tradition from resurrection and penecost, to the apostles continuing the worship on the first day of the week (1 cor 16:2, acts 20:7).

Old Covenant : Saturday (6 days of work, 1 day of rest)
New Covenant : Sunday (the work of the old Covenant, incapable of completion by man, is perfectly performed by Christ, thus the church is a new creation and worships in a new era.)

TheBonifaceOption said:

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8th day worship is the tradition from resurrection and penecost, to the apostles continuing the worship on the first day of the week (1 cor 16:2, acts 20:7).

Old Covenant : Saturday (6 days of work, 1 day of rest)
New Covenant : Sunday (the work of the old Covenant, incapable of completion by man, is perfectly performed by Christ, thus the church is a new creation and worships in a new era.)

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The verses you are quoting are a closing of the sabbath in a havdalah on what you would call a Saturday evening, and not an 8th day Sunday morning abolishment of the sabbath. Jews have been doing that since before the time of Yeshua until today and it's a means to uphold the sabbath; not abolish it. If you want to be Christ-like, then keep His sabbath as He also kept it. Anyone who abolishes even the least of the commandments or teaches others to abolish even the least of the commandments, shall be called least in the Kingdom of heaven.

PabloSerna said:

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My friend you are WAY off in the woods. I posted a few more sections for the RCC basis on the Lord's Day above for reference. In short, we are not sun worshippers, ok? ok. The key word is FULFILLMENT.

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Of course they have assigned new meaning to the pagan sun rituals. The Catholic church has always done this and are still doing this. It's not a hidden secret even among Catholics. As one example, look at how the Catholic church is practiced in Ecuador. One of their pagan mother earth rituals has been assigned new meaning now attached to the virgin Mary. There are other examples in Ecuador, and there are other examples in just about every place the Catholic church has spread, starting with the Roman pagan sun god worship. This is no secret even among the Catholic Church. It has been their MO since the beginning to not abolish local religions where they spread, but to incorporate them by assigning them new meaning as best they can fit in with scripture. It's no secret, but when called out directly as being wrong, virtually all Catholics recognize how offensive that really is and just deny, deny, deny.

Zobel said:

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what elements of pagan sun god worship are present in the church? be specific

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Pardon me for feeling this is a disingenuous question, given anyone with even a modicum of effort searching will discover this with ease; that is, anyone not determined ahead of time to deny, deny, deny.

Win At Life said:

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PabloSerna said:

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My friend you are WAY off in the woods. I posted a few more sections for the RCC basis on the Lord's Day above for reference. In short, we are not sun worshippers, ok? ok. The key word is FULFILLMENT.

---

Of course they have assigned new meaning to the pagan sun rituals. The Catholic church has always done this and are still doing this. It's not a hidden secret even among Catholics. As one example, look at how the Catholic church is practiced in Ecuador. One of their pagan mother earth rituals has been assigned new meaning now attached to the virgin Mary. There are other examples in Ecuador, and there are other examples in just about every place the Catholic church has spread, starting with the Roman pagan sun god worship. This is no secret even among the Catholic Church. It has been their MO since the beginning to not abolish local religions where they spread, but to incorporate them by assigning them new meaning as best they can fit in with scripture. It's no secret, but when called out directly as being wrong, virtually all Catholics recognize how offensive that really is and just deny, deny, deny.

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Let's make sure our etymology is correct: what is the Latin/Greek/Hebrew word for the sun? How about for Son?

Long story short, saying that we worship the sun god because the English word makes a connection look plausible is incredibly inaccurate. If you want to make a case for the sabbath feel free, but you should abandon this line of attack immediately. A casual look into the language of the time would show the 1st day/8th day has absolutely nothing to do with any sun god of any culture.

In the year 321 A.D., Constantine decreed, "On the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed" (Codex Justinianus lib. 3, tit. ...)

Not sure what the implied significance of this. The Roman pagan calendar had days (and months) dedicated to various gods. When Christianity became the state religion, those days were reclaimed for Christ. The day of the sun, or Helios, which corresponded to the first day or the day after sabbath was renamed to Kyriaki, the Lord's day. Now in Greek you have the Lord's day, then numbered - second, third fourth, fifth - followed by Preparation and Sabbath for Friday and Saturday, respectively.

To expand a little further, we see evidence in the scripture of the first day - not the least of which is the reference to the Lord's day in Revelation 1. The fact that this was written late witnesses to this development, but also the early use of this word in the tradition. We know from history that the early Christians were meeting in the synagogue on the Sabbath - in most cases continuing as they always had, just like the apostles continued daily in the temple in Jerusalem. We also know they met on the first day to celebrate the Eucharist and the Resurrection.

However, they were put out of the synagogues just as Christ told them they would be. At that point the modern form of the Divine Liturgy began to emerge. The worship of Saturday became the Liturgy of the Word, and the Sunday worship continued as the Liturgy of the Faithful, both celebrated together at once. The former was open to catechumen, the latter only for baptized Christians. Sunday, the Lord's day, became the prime remembrance of the Resurrection, but the worship of the Liturgy continued daily in this format. The Sabbath is fulfilled here, in that every day becomes a Sabbath (e.g., St Justin "The new law requires you to keep perpetual sabbath, and you, because you are idle for one day, suppose you are pious..").

The worship particular to the Sabbath day is also because the Sabbath is fulfilled in Christ - we particularly celebrate Christ's descent into death and His rest - the Sabbath of God. Every Saturday we remember Christ's descent, and prepare ourselves for His Resurrection on Sunday.

This is seen, to me, most beautifully in the liturgy on Great and Holy Saturday, where the mourning turns to joy - but muted, in anticipation - as we call for the Lord to Arise (anastasis, lit resurrection, standing up) and judge the earth! On that day there is a reading that says

Quote:

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The great Moses mystically foreshadowed this day, when he said:
This is the blessed Sabbath.
This is the day of rest, on which the only-begotten Son of God rested from all His works.
He kept the Sabbath in the flesh,
through the dispensation of death.
but on this day, He returned again
through the resurrection.
He has granted us eternal life,
for He alone is Good, the Lover of Mankind.

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So, yes, the first day that was formerly dedicated by pagans to the worship of the Sun was redeemed and reclaimed to celebrate Christ's victory over all of His enemies on the day of the resurrection, the Lord's day. But that has nothing to do with worship of the Sun - it actually negates it. One of the hymns we sing leading up to and at the Feast of the Nativity captures this idea perfectly:

Quote:

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Your birth, O Christ our God, dawned the light of knowledge upon the earth.
For by Your birth those who worshipped the stars were taught by a star
To worship You, the Sun of Justice,
and to know You, the Orient from on High.
O Lord, glory to You.

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Shades of Romans 1 here..

Yeah, I'm on the same page as you in that I don't think that Christians are sun worshippers. The post above mine explicitly stated that the first day of the week had never been associated with sun worship ever in the history of humanity. My post was just a clip of a primary source that the first day was in fact related to sun worship and it was done within the living memory of the early Christian transition from the Sabbath.

As far as whether Christians should keep Sabbath, I think we should. Will expound when I have more time

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_festivals

December

• 25: Dies Natalis Solis Invicti ("Birthday of the Unconquered Sun"); Brumalia (both Imperial)

Of course you will deny, deny, deny the obvious. I said you would, so no surprise. So, the birth of Jesus being pushed from its fall calculation from scripture to being celebrated around the winter solstice is not tied to the winter solstice, because the multitude of winter solstice celebrating cultures throughout the centuries had a multitude of different dates, calendars, rituals and beliefs about how to celebrate the winter solstice? Got it.

And a 1000 years from now Catholics celebrating the Virgin Mary on April 22nd in Ecuador will believe that was the birthday of the virgin Mary and not the pagan Mother Earth day.

So a few more thoughts regarding keeping the Sabbath. Now I'm not coming at this from a stance saying the Torah is still in force for Christians. In case you don't already know my position on that. However, the Sabbath predates the Torah. In fact, the Sabbath predates almost everything. God rested on the 7th day of Creation, and that was the first Sabbath. We see the Sabbath observed throughout the Old Testament. We see Jesus called Lord of the Sabbath. We know the earliest Christians observed the Sabbath, and we know that organized, orthodox Christians continued to observe the Sabbath into the 400-500s. We also know from Isaiah 66 that after a new heaven and a new earth has been made, people will still worship God "from one Sabbath to another".

So the Sabbath was observed by God at Creation, was observed by his people in the OT, is part of Jesus' dominion in the NT, was observed by early Christians and will be observed after the resurrection. So to me the question becomes, why not now? What is so special and different about now (500AD onward)? Observance of the Sabbath isn't some time limited commandment. Our current non-observance is the blip.

I think any reading of Scripture shows that God wants His people to observe the Sabbath. I also try to think of our modern lives if we did. We do a good job of giving most people a day off per week, so that wouldn't change much. But there were also Sabbath years, where the land was left untended for one year in seven. Or even the Sabbath year of Sabbath years, the Jubillee. I can't even imagine a mass reset of debts in our society.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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So a few more thoughts regarding keeping the Sabbath. Now I'm not coming at this from a stance saying the Torah is still in force for Christians. In case you don't already know my position on that. However, the Sabbath predates the Torah. In fact, the Sabbath predates almost everything. God rested on the 7th day of Creation, and that was the first Sabbath. We see the Sabbath observed throughout the Old Testament. We see Jesus called Lord of the Sabbath. We know the earliest Christians observed the Sabbath, and we know that organized, orthodox Christians continued to observe the Sabbath into the 400-500s. We also know from Isaiah 66 that after a new heaven and a new earth has been made, people will still worship God "from one Sabbath to another".

So the Sabbath was observed by God at Creation, was observed by his people in the OT, is part of Jesus' dominion in the NT, was observed by early Christians and will be observed after the resurrection. So to me the question becomes, why not now? What is so special and different about now (500AD onward)? Observance of the Sabbath isn't some time limited commandment. Our current non-observance is the blip.

I think any reading of Scripture shows that God wants His people to observe the Sabbath. I also try to think of our modern lives if we did. We do a good job of giving most people a day off per week, so that wouldn't change much. But there were also Sabbath years, where the land was left untended for one year in seven. Or even the Sabbath year of Sabbath years, the Jubillee. I can't even imagine a mass reset of debts in our society.

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You're not far off.

I'll add that in Leviticus 23:1-3, Elohim declares the Sabbath to be HIS appointed time.

(NASB95) 1The Lord spoke again to Moses, saying, 2 "Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, 'The Lord's appointed times which you shall proclaim as holy convocationsMy appointed times are these: 3 'For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a sabbath to the Lord in all your dwellings.


God rests on His Sabbath. You can rest on whatever day you want, but that would be YOUR sabbath and not God's. As I pointed out above, when the Catholic church wanted to find fault with Luther, they called him a hypocrite for saying he followed scripture alone, because they argue very strenuously that scripture nowhere supports abolishing the sabbath; that being solely a declaration by the Catholic Church apart from scripture. According to them, if you follow scripture, you must keep God's sabbath day. THANK YOU!

There have been numerous man-made reasons for abolishing the sabbath and worshipping/resting on the 8th day, but those are just that; man-made reasons. The Catholic Church claims they can do that and overrule scripture, so go for them. But it was not abolished by God.

Exodus 31:16 So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.'

Acts 15:21 For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

Deuteronomy 15:16 There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you.'"

You raise excellent points which caused me to consider, for the first time, whether Christians should keep the Sabbath and whether it should be observed on Saturday.

I sat down this morning to really focus on the issue and the first article I came across is this one:

Should Christians Keep the Sabbath? | Desiring God

The author makes great points in that article, as well. How do you respond to them?

TIA

Jabin said:

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You raise excellent points which caused me to consider, for the first time, whether Christians should keep the Sabbath and whether it should be observed on Saturday.

I sat down this morning to really focus on the issue and the first article I came across is this one:

Should Christians Keep the Sabbath? | Desiring God

The author makes great points in that article, as well. How do you respond to them?

TIA

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Thanks for the article and I agree. Being able to rest in the Lord is not a "day" but a constant thing. I do think setting aside a day and some time every day to rest, pray, and read Scripture is very helpful for spiritual health.

The general understanding of the early fathers is that Christians do not keep the sabbath of the Judaeans. This is the sabbath that the Lord says He finds detestable. They also understand a distinction between spirit and flesh - type and actuality, shadow and light. In all of the Torah we find Christ, and the new covenant fulfills the old.

The new does not abrogate the old, and it does not change it. The Torah is as true and valid today as always - St Paul makes this point several times, but maybe the clearest one is when he talks about not muzzling the ox - and was it only for oxen He was concerned? Yet clearly if it was true then, St Paul uses it as a teaching by asking "Doesn't the Torah say...?"

But it is fulfilled. Culminated, filled to overflowing, made new, revealed... all of these are ways the NT speaks of it. As St Paul says, Christ is the culmination (telos) of the Torah.

In this way baptism is circumcision fulfilled, the Church is the assembly of Israel fulfilled, our bodies constitute the Body of Christ and are the temple fulfilled, our Eucharist is all of the offerings and sacrifices fulfilled, and we keep all of the festivals and sabbaths fulfilled.

Going to the scriptures, there is no evening and morning after the seventh day. God enters into His rest, His reign, and blesses it. Adam and Eve did no work; work was part of the curse. So resting from labor in a kind of cyclical way was not part of Paradise. They were with God on the seventh day in fellowship and rest. Therefore the rest of the sabbath is a kind of foretaste or reminder of Paradise. The seventh day and the sabbath day are not spoken of in the same way, though both are blessed, because one is a reminder to the other.

The commandment to keep sabbath as one day to rest from labor is not because this is some kind of intrinsic good or evil. The Ten Commandments don't give reasons for not murdering or stealing or adultery because they are intrinsically bad. But resting from the sabbath is explained - because God rested (Ex 20:11). It is a reminder and a way to reorient their life from the worldly to the eternal, each week.

Christians are called to keep this sabbath all the time. Christ rested on the Sabbath from all His labors in the Tomb. When we are baptized, we are buried with Him. When we rise, we rise with Him on the eighth day. When we receive the Holy Spirit, we have Christ in us, and Paradise is where God is. We should live in this eighth day for our whole lives, and our whole lives become filled with eternal life, the life of Christ. This is one of the very greatest promises in the scripture - "Whoever believes in Me will live, even though he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die."

The concept that the Lord God, the Father Almighty, maker of Heaven and Earth, of all that is seen and unseen marks time on a calendar based on the rotation of one planet (amongst billions) on its axis and its orbital time around one of billions of stars is laughable.

What did God do on the 8th day other than invent golf?

B-1 83 said:

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The concept that the Lord God, the Father Almighty, maker of Heaven and Earth, of all that is seen and unseen marks time on a calendar based on the rotation of one planet (amongst billions) on its axis and its orbital time around one of billions of stars is laughable.

What did God do on the 8th day other than invent golf?

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Or, perhaps he established the rotation period of this one very special planet to correspond to the calendar he instituted?

Personally, I find it laughable for people to assume that they can say what the "Lord God . . . creator of all that is seen and unseen . . ." can do or can't do or should do or shouldn't do. His ways and motives would, by definition, be beyond our understanding.

Jabin said:

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You raise excellent points which caused me to consider, for the first time, whether Christians should keep the Sabbath and whether it should be observed on Saturday.

I sat down this morning to really focus on the issue and the first article I came across is this one:

Should Christians Keep the Sabbath? | Desiring God

The author makes great points in that article, as well. How do you respond to them?

TIA

---

So a few things in answer to the article. As I said at the beginning, do I think there is an obligation for Christians to Christians to follow the OT law, including the Sabbath, under threat of punishment from God for disobedience? No, there is not. So on that point the author of your article and I agree. So that moves the framing of the question at hand a bit. Instead of talking about what Christians have to do, I am instead talking about what Christians should do. I merely think that Christians should observe the Sabbath.

So that moves us to the main point of the article, and that point was echoed by Zobel. The idea that every day is a Sabbath, and we don't need a day of rest because we have an entire life of rest. I disagree, and I would point ot the story of the Exodus as a reference. In some ways I think the Exodus is a foreshadowing of eternity. God lived among His people, gave them direct instruction, guided their path, provided for their every need, and protected them. It's certainly the most intimate that any people have been with the Almighty since the Fall. These people also wandered and worked, but they did not toil. Their work consisted of packing camp and gathering manna. And yet they continued to rest from that light activity one day per week, and God was very strict about this with them. So it seems neither intimacy with God nor lightness of labor is any reason to forego the Sabbath.

On the topic of being at rest, I certainly don't feel at rest all the time despite being Christian. I work very hard. Even though my work is fulfilling, it can be difficult both physically and emotionally. I take call a week at a time and have to be ready to handle life and death situations at a moment's notice without error. It's taxing and stressful. So I would dispute the idea that Christians don't need a scheduled day of rest just from personal experience. In fact, if you asked most Christians in America, I bet most would say they are under constant heavy stress and feel overwhelmed and overworked quite often. I would also bet that most American Christians are more present in the wordly realm than the spiritual throughout the week.

So it's almost a tailer made solution to have a day where not only do you not work, but you can just ignore worldly affairs for 24 hours. Just a full day where you don't work, and where you don't worry about bills, chores, politics, or any of the million things that stress us out and makes us angry. Just a day to be happy with your friends and family, be thankful to God, pray, and enjoy being part of an eternal kingdom and not just this temporary earthly one.

We all actually know how convenants work, because marriage is a Covenant and we know how that works. If a spouse later goes off and gets married to another, does the second marriage contract abolish (or fulfill, by some) the first marriage? Of course not. You know that. In fact, if a second Covenant comes along later and contradicts anything of the first Covenant, then the second Covenant cannot stand and becomes invalid. The second marriage is the invalid one. If your doctrine or interpretation of the New Covenant abolishes any of the Old Covenant, including one of the key 10 Commandments of that Old Covenant; then your man-made doctrine or interpretation is wrong. If you seek an interpretation of the New Covenant that supports and reinforces the Old Covenant, you will find that interpretation with relative ease. Given those interpretations exist, shouldn't that be your preferred interpretation? It's really that simple. I pray everyone finds the simple truth of Elohim's word.

Shalom.

Thanks for the reply. So, to make sure that I understand your position, do you believe that:

• Christians should observe the sabbath because of its benefits, but not because it is mandated?
• If Christians are not required to observe the Sabbath, then it doesn't really matter whether they observe it on Saturday or Sunday, correct? In fact, if a Christian wanted to take a day of rest on Tuesday, that would be fine as well. It's the day of rest that's important, not the ceremonial observance?
• If a Christian finds that mowing the lawn is restful and relieves him from stress, then it is OK for the Christian to mow the lawn on the day that he rests, his Sabbath, correct?
• What do you think of sports events on days that are likely some of the players' Sabbath day?

I am definitely not trying to be argumentative or trap you with these questions. Rather, I'm rolling around the ideas you've expressed and trying to understand your perspective and figure out what mine should be.