dermdoc said:

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The churches I have attended had the most loving, giving, nicest, etc. folks I have ever met. They visit you in the hospital, console you and bring food hen a loved one goes to be with the Lord, cry and celebrate with you, etc. They are the Body of Christ here on earth.

It is a joy to be a part of.

---

Okay, that's great. Legitimately. I'm glad you have that. Community is a powerful motivator. But that kind of community is not the purview of Christianity alone and it often has in-group / out-group dynamics you might be unaware of that affect others.

dermdoc said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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dermdoc said:

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The churches I have attended had the most loving, giving, nicest, etc. folks I have ever met. They visit you in the hospital, console you and bring food hen a loved one goes to be with the Lord, cry and celebrate with you, etc. They are the Body of Christ here on earth.

It is a joy to be a part of.

---

Okay, that's great. Community is a powerful motivator. But that kind of community is not the purview of Christianity alone and it often has in-group / out-group dynamics you might be unaware of that affect others.

---

Fair enough. I think there is a lot you are unaware of about actual Christianity in the real world. You present almost an ivory tower caricature of what the actual church is based upon your reading and historical aspects. And not the day to day effect of folks knowing Jesus.

---

Sure, I can recognize the positives for a lot of individuals. I've never been one to claim the world would be better if everyone was an atheist or if religion never existed. I think religion is a pretty natural outcome of our evolution and serves an important purpose. But I also think you can't ignore the broader context and consequences of religious structures, specific beliefs, and what they say about society.

Sapper Redux said:

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dermdoc said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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dermdoc said:

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The churches I have attended had the most loving, giving, nicest, etc. folks I have ever met. They visit you in the hospital, console you and bring food hen a loved one goes to be with the Lord, cry and celebrate with you, etc. They are the Body of Christ here on earth.

It is a joy to be a part of.

---

Okay, that's great. Community is a powerful motivator. But that kind of community is not the purview of Christianity alone and it often has in-group / out-group dynamics you might be unaware of that affect others.

---

Fair enough. I think there is a lot you are unaware of about actual Christianity in the real world. You present almost an ivory tower caricature of what the actual church is based upon your reading and historical aspects. And not the day to day effect of folks knowing Jesus.

---

Sure, I can recognize the positives for a lot of individuals. I've never been one to claim the world would be better if everyone was an atheist or if religion never existed. I think religion is a pretty natural outcome of our evolution and serves an important purpose. But I also think you can't ignore the broader context and consequences of religious structures, specific beliefs, and what they say about society.

---

May I ask when was the last time you went to a church service?

You make all these observations and I do not see where you have ever said you actually had visited a church. Seems like if you really wanted to find out what Christianity was really about.you would do that.

And you really do a lot of projection and generalization concerning Christianity.

Try it, you might like it.

Late to the conversation, but Woke Jesus was also a popular meme a couple of years ago. There are 1000's like the example I put below, but they are essentially paintings of Jesus teaching things that are pretty absurd. Like, laughably absurd.

Sapper Redux said:

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dermdoc said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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"woke" boils down to self righteousness in my mind. There is no "woke Jesus" because he specifically preached against practicing your righteousness before others.

---

Recognizing that we have blind spots towards others and the existence of histories and systems of oppression is self righteousness while ignoring that and insisting your way is the only way is not?

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You're not their savior.

---

It's amazing watching where your mind goes.

---

Well he is correct. Jesus Christ is the only way. That does not mean Christians are supposed to be disrespectful of other beliefs. But there is absolute truth.

Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life and no one comes to the Father outside of Him.

---

Given the long, disturbing history of race within Christianity, I don't think just saying "Jesus!" will address the problem.

---

You perhaps are confusing early Judaism with Christianity. Christ was never racist and beckoned ALL. Man, however is surely guilty of confusing the issue.

dermdoc said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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dermdoc said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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dermdoc said:

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The churches I have attended had the most loving, giving, nicest, etc. folks I have ever met. They visit you in the hospital, console you and bring food hen a loved one goes to be with the Lord, cry and celebrate with you, etc. They are the Body of Christ here on earth.

It is a joy to be a part of.

---

Okay, that's great. Community is a powerful motivator. But that kind of community is not the purview of Christianity alone and it often has in-group / out-group dynamics you might be unaware of that affect others.

---

Fair enough. I think there is a lot you are unaware of about actual Christianity in the real world. You present almost an ivory tower caricature of what the actual church is based upon your reading and historical aspects. And not the day to day effect of folks knowing Jesus.

---

Sure, I can recognize the positives for a lot of individuals. I've never been one to claim the world would be better if everyone was an atheist or if religion never existed. I think religion is a pretty natural outcome of our evolution and serves an important purpose. But I also think you can't ignore the broader context and consequences of religious structures, specific beliefs, and what they say about society.

---

May I ask when was the last time you went to a church service?

You make all these observations and I do not see where you have ever said you actually had visited a church. Seems like if you really wanted to find out what Christianity was really about.you would do that.

And you really do a lot of projection and generalization concerning Christianity.

Try it, you might like it.

---

I was quite devout through my childhood into adulthood. I kept going through my 20s despite serious doubts after my military service. I last attended a few years ago, a high Episcopal Christmas Eve service because my daughter was curious about the service. I know the religion far better than you seem to assume.

whatthehey78 said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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dermdoc said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

---

Sapper Redux said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

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"woke" boils down to self righteousness in my mind. There is no "woke Jesus" because he specifically preached against practicing your righteousness before others.

---

Recognizing that we have blind spots towards others and the existence of histories and systems of oppression is self righteousness while ignoring that and insisting your way is the only way is not?

---

You're not their savior.

---

It's amazing watching where your mind goes.

---

Well he is correct. Jesus Christ is the only way. That does not mean Christians are supposed to be disrespectful of other beliefs. But there is absolute truth.

Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life and no one comes to the Father outside of Him.

---

Given the long, disturbing history of race within Christianity, I don't think just saying "Jesus!" will address the problem.

---

You perhaps are confusing early Judaism with Christianity. Christ was never racist and beckoned ALL. Man, however is surely guilty of confusing the issue.

---

Huh? No. No, I'm not confusing it. I am curious as to just where you get your perception of Judaism from.

Sapper Redux said:

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dermdoc said:

---

Sapper Redux said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

---

Sapper Redux said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

"woke" boils down to self righteousness in my mind. There is no "woke Jesus" because he specifically preached against practicing your righteousness before others.

---

Recognizing that we have blind spots towards others and the existence of histories and systems of oppression is self righteousness while ignoring that and insisting your way is the only way is not?

---

You're not their savior.

---

It's amazing watching where your mind goes.

---

Well he is correct. Jesus Christ is the only way. That does not mean Christians are supposed to be disrespectful of other beliefs. But there is absolute truth.

Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life and no one comes to the Father outside of Him.

---

Given the long, disturbing history of race within Christianity, I don't think just saying "Jesus!" will address the problem.

---

When you talk about the "long, disturbing history of race", are you speaking on teaching, or practice? If practice, can you give me a range of how far back you're looking? Because I don't want this to be a trap question, please feel free to ask for clarification.

I know specific Christians, or even entire denominations like the SBC, have made race a basis for their platform, so I don't think your criticism is without warrant

Sapper Redux said:

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dermdoc said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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dermdoc said:

---

Sapper Redux said:

---

dermdoc said:

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The churches I have attended had the most loving, giving, nicest, etc. folks I have ever met. They visit you in the hospital, console you and bring food hen a loved one goes to be with the Lord, cry and celebrate with you, etc. They are the Body of Christ here on earth.

It is a joy to be a part of.

---

Okay, that's great. Community is a powerful motivator. But that kind of community is not the purview of Christianity alone and it often has in-group / out-group dynamics you might be unaware of that affect others.

---

Fair enough. I think there is a lot you are unaware of about actual Christianity in the real world. You present almost an ivory tower caricature of what the actual church is based upon your reading and historical aspects. And not the day to day effect of folks knowing Jesus.

---

Sure, I can recognize the positives for a lot of individuals. I've never been one to claim the world would be better if everyone was an atheist or if religion never existed. I think religion is a pretty natural outcome of our evolution and serves an important purpose. But I also think you can't ignore the broader context and consequences of religious structures, specific beliefs, and what they say about society.

---

May I ask when was the last time you went to a church service?

You make all these observations and I do not see where you have ever said you actually had visited a church. Seems like if you really wanted to find out what Christianity was really about.you would do that.

And you really do a lot of projection and generalization concerning Christianity.

Try it, you might like it.

---

I was quite devout through my childhood into adulthood. I kept going through my 20s despite serious doubts after my military service. I last attended a few years ago, a high Episcopal Christmas Eve service because my daughter was curious about the service. I know the religion far better than you seem to assume.

---

Thanks. And praying you come back. God loves you.

And just curious, was it the evil and suffering encountered in your military service that made you doubt in a good God? I know I had a crisis of faith when faced with the suffering and death I encountered in med school and residency.

I have friends like that and I will repeat that the hardest thing to convince a non believer is that there is a good God. The world around us is evil, seems arbitrary, and often senseless. Where is this good God you claim? He is right there in all the suffering.

The Banned said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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dermdoc said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

---

Sapper Redux said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

"woke" boils down to self righteousness in my mind. There is no "woke Jesus" because he specifically preached against practicing your righteousness before others.

---

Recognizing that we have blind spots towards others and the existence of histories and systems of oppression is self righteousness while ignoring that and insisting your way is the only way is not?

---

You're not their savior.

---

It's amazing watching where your mind goes.

---

Well he is correct. Jesus Christ is the only way. That does not mean Christians are supposed to be disrespectful of other beliefs. But there is absolute truth.

Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life and no one comes to the Father outside of Him.

---

Given the long, disturbing history of race within Christianity, I don't think just saying "Jesus!" will address the problem.

---

When you talk about the "long, disturbing history of race", are you speaking on teaching, or practice? If practice, can you give me a range of how far back you're looking? Because I don't want this to be a trap question, please feel free to ask for clarification.

I know specific Christians, or even entire denominations like the SBC, have made race a basis for their platform, so I don't think your criticism is without warrant

---

I'm not going all the way back. Race was a thing in antiquity, but how they defined it and understood it would make near-zero sense to a modern person and visa versa. Likewise, race in Medieval Europe and the Near East was different. You can see the beginnings of what developed with how the Church and society defined and treated Jews and Muslims, but it was different. Race as an important factor in European thought looks more what we would recognize beginning in the 15th century as you get more exploration of Asia and Africa and then, obviously, the discovery of the Americas.

Sapper Redux said:

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The Banned said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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dermdoc said:

---

Sapper Redux said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

Sapper Redux said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

"woke" boils down to self righteousness in my mind. There is no "woke Jesus" because he specifically preached against practicing your righteousness before others.

---

Recognizing that we have blind spots towards others and the existence of histories and systems of oppression is self righteousness while ignoring that and insisting your way is the only way is not?

---

You're not their savior.

---

It's amazing watching where your mind goes.

---

Well he is correct. Jesus Christ is the only way. That does not mean Christians are supposed to be disrespectful of other beliefs. But there is absolute truth.

Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life and no one comes to the Father outside of Him.

---

Given the long, disturbing history of race within Christianity, I don't think just saying "Jesus!" will address the problem.

---

When you talk about the "long, disturbing history of race", are you speaking on teaching, or practice? If practice, can you give me a range of how far back you're looking? Because I don't want this to be a trap question, please feel free to ask for clarification.

I know specific Christians, or even entire denominations like the SBC, have made race a basis for their platform, so I don't think your criticism is without warrant

---

I'm not going all the way back. Race was a thing in antiquity, but how they defined it and understood it would make near-zero sense to a modern person and visa versa. Likewise, race in Medieval Europe and the Near East was different. You can see the beginnings of what developed with how the Church and society defined and treated Jews and Muslims, but it was different. Race as an important factor in European thought looks more what we would recognize beginning in the 15th century as you get more exploration of Asia and Africa and then, obviously, the discovery of the Americas.

---

Not really sure the "dark ages" is the best metric to assess pure and undefined religion. Maybe gives James 1:27 a looksee?

There's no such thing as a "pure" religion. They all exist in communication with place, time, and culture.

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

James 1:27 KJV

Martin Q. Blank said:

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"woke" boils down to self righteousness in my mind. There is no "woke Jesus" because he specifically preached against practicing your righteousness before others.

---

And in no way do you ever see even a hint of the religious right "practicing your righteousness over others? What a one sided world we live in.

Rocag said:

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At this point the right wing hysteria about "wokeness" is just funny.

But yeah, you should probably be terrified and offended. About whatever.

---

Bonhoeffer Says hello.

Bonhoeffer? Is somebody supposed to be a Nazi in this scenario?

Bearpitbull said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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"woke" boils down to self righteousness in my mind. There is no "woke Jesus" because he specifically preached against practicing your righteousness before others.

---

And in no way do you ever see even a hint of the religious right "practicing your righteousness over others? What a one sided world we live in.

---

One sided? Self righteousness is largely another phrase for virtue signaling, and vice versa. It's man made to abet our broken desire for favorable attention and influence, it's been going on forever, and it's not exclusive to the left or the right.

As mentioned, Jesus railed against it in Matthew 6. He ripped the Pharisees a new one over it in Matthew 23. But it continues today with the apostate church, where leaders are attention seeking man-pleasers who don't want to offend anyone with biblical truth so that the money keeps rolling in and their influence and vanity is assuaged. Religion, politics, business, sports, academia...anything touched by man's filthy hands is afflicted with it.. But do not in any way confuse this with Jesus or the original church fathers.

NCNJ1217 said:

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After reading the thread here's how I see it.

Those that do not believe in God will give more weight to Christianity's history where Christian human leaders have failed. Both on this thread and in the world. Since they don't believe God exists, to them Christianity is simply the sum of the religion's history over the years.

Those that do believe in God, and have accepted Him as savior, and understand that the Bible (and more specifically, the Gospel) is God's Word to us, understand that humans routinely fall short. There are lots of people over the centuries who have used religion (and often misinterpreted the Bible as well) for their own benefit or for evil purposes.

Wokeness is incompatible with the Gospel.

---

woke


verb
[ol]

a simple past tense of wake1.

[/ol]adjective
[ol]

having or marked by an active awareness of systemic injustices and prejudices, especially those involving the treatment of ethnic, racial, or sexual minorities

[/ol]

How is it incompatible with the definition of woke?

The word has been hijacked and you know it.

The original definition of "woke" might be broad, but it's certainly more narrowly defined than how it is used in conservative circles which basically applies it to anything vaguely liberal. I truly do not understand why you are acting as if terms such as 'systemic' and 'prejudice' can't be defined in any meaningful way.

And I like the "motte and bailey" criticism post in which you start by arguing against the definition of woke and then transition to defining gender ideology, which no one in this thread had been previously discussing. I'm sure there's a name for what you just did but it's eluding me for the moment. I'm certain it will come to me.

Liberals refusing to play along with conservatives stupid little word games about the definition of "woke" is exactly about conservatives "redefining familiar words and creating new variations of those words that only make sense within their own paradigm". That you can't see that is hugely amusing to me.

Rocag said:

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The original definition of "woke" might be broad, but it's certainly more narrowly defined than how it is used in conservative circles which basically applies it to anything vaguely liberal. I truly do not understand why you are acting as if terms such as 'systemic' and 'prejudice' can't be defined in any meaningful way.

And I like the "motte and bailey" criticism post in which you start by arguing against the definition of woke and then transition to defining gender ideology, which no one in this thread had been previously discussing. I'm sure there's a name for what you just did but it's eluding me for the moment. I'm certain it will come to me.

Liberals refusing to play along with conservatives stupid little word games about the definition of "woke" is exactly about conservatives "redefining familiar words and creating new variations of those words that only make sense within their own paradigm". That you can't see that is hugely amusing to me.

---

1) Yes, it was used in a vague way by a poster. However, posting the dictionary definition that is incredibly narrow at the opposite extreme and asking how it doesn't fit isn't the right tact either (or the follow up equivalent of 'nuh uh'). In fact I bolded a specific part of the basic definition that doesn't fit but didn't expound and it seems to have already gotten lost - 'sexual minority' in context is not compatible.

2) I'm not redirecting to gender ideology. Please read what I typed right before the link about how I read something similar. It would be a misrepresentation of my post and intent to accuse me of anything other than bringing in a column debating issues of definition. I highlighted specific paragraphs so you wouldn't have to read it with the point being that definition matters and a dictionary copy paste doesn't work. There's no word or phrase for that because it was a good faith argument with clear intent, not an attempt at obfuscation.

3) You've missed the meaning of most of my posts. Macarthur says woke and the gospel are compatible and posted a woefully inadequate definition, refusing to address connotation and practice (which might actually differ, such as anti-racist policies that promote present and future discrimination as a remedy to past discrimination, thus opening a debate as to whether 'justice' occurs or whether 'systemic' things are bad or not). In his and your circle 'woke' has a clearly defined meaning and all the words do too (as you said yourself). If it's super easy to grasp and explain why is it so hard to define in your own words without calling others obtuse for not just folding like lawn chairs at your indignance?