Is the fear about addressing bigotry in religion more politics or actual theology?

At this point the right wing hysteria about "wokeness" is just funny.

But yeah, you should probably be terrified and offended. About whatever.

"woke" boils down to self righteousness in my mind. There is no "woke Jesus" because he specifically preached against practicing your righteousness before others.

whatthehey78 said:

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What is this? Adv. on TV. Scary title!
Is it Christian or heresy?

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The book is a rebuke of "woke" Christianity.

https://www.amazon.com/Woke-Jesus-Messiah-Destroying-Christianity/dp/1630062510/ref=nodl_?dplnkId=fb042ac5-174e-47c6-a9c2-87cc9f93fd63

Sapper Redux said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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"woke" boils down to self righteousness in my mind. There is no "woke Jesus" because he specifically preached against practicing your righteousness before others.

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Recognizing that we have blind spots towards others and the existence of histories and systems of oppression is self righteousness while ignoring that and insisting your way is the only way is not?

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You're not their savior.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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"woke" boils down to self righteousness in my mind. There is no "woke Jesus" because he specifically preached against practicing your righteousness before others.

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Recognizing that we have blind spots towards others and the existence of histories and systems of oppression is self righteousness while ignoring that and insisting your way is the only way is not?

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You're not their savior.

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It's amazing watching where your mind goes.

Sapper Redux said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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"woke" boils down to self righteousness in my mind. There is no "woke Jesus" because he specifically preached against practicing your righteousness before others.

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Recognizing that we have blind spots towards others and the existence of histories and systems of oppression is self righteousness while ignoring that and insisting your way is the only way is not?

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You're not their savior.

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It's amazing watching where your mind goes.

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Well he is correct. Jesus Christ is the only way. That does not mean Christians are supposed to be disrespectful of other beliefs. But there is absolute truth.

Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life and no one comes to the Father outside of Him.

dermdoc said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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"woke" boils down to self righteousness in my mind. There is no "woke Jesus" because he specifically preached against practicing your righteousness before others.

---

Recognizing that we have blind spots towards others and the existence of histories and systems of oppression is self righteousness while ignoring that and insisting your way is the only way is not?

---

You're not their savior.

---

It's amazing watching where your mind goes.

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Well he is correct. Jesus Christ is the only way. That does not mean Christians are supposed to be disrespectful of other beliefs. But there is absolute truth.

Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life and no one comes to the Father outside of Him.

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Truth! Two thieves nailed on crosses. Your choice is exactly the same as theirs.

Man I completely missed where you claimed to be anyone's savior. Maybe it's one of those things only Christians can see...

Certain people cannot overcome "systems of oppression" without his help. Some people call it the white savior complex. But it's just plain old self righteousness.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Certain people cannot overcome "systems of oppression" without his help. Some people call it the white savior complex. But it's just plain old self righteousness.

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Again, fascinating. What makes you think I consider myself to be the best or only person capable of dismantling systemic issues? Wouldn't it make sense that systemic problems would require large scale efforts from various groups with different backgrounds and expertise?

dermdoc said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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"woke" boils down to self righteousness in my mind. There is no "woke Jesus" because he specifically preached against practicing your righteousness before others.

---

Recognizing that we have blind spots towards others and the existence of histories and systems of oppression is self righteousness while ignoring that and insisting your way is the only way is not?

---

You're not their savior.

---

It's amazing watching where your mind goes.

---

Well he is correct. Jesus Christ is the only way. That does not mean Christians are supposed to be disrespectful of other beliefs. But there is absolute truth.

Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life and no one comes to the Father outside of Him.

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Given the long, disturbing history of race within Christianity, I don't think just saying "Jesus!" will address the problem.

Except "woke" didn't originate within white culture. I mean I get that a key aim of what conservatives are doing is to redefine words into weapons they can use against liberals and that most don't actually care what the actual meaning is but that doesn't mean I have to buy into it. "Woke" is a creation of black culture and it refers to people within that culture who recognized and actively opposed systemic prejudice and discrimination.

Cries of "White savior complex" is what those who support oppression use to convince white people to do nothing and let the status quo continue.

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Given the long, disturbing history of race within Christianity

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You are an intelligent guy but seriously, where do you get this stuff?

The history of humanity is one of constant violence and conquest. A genetic look at our DNA shows this.

Racism and preference for people within our tribe or who look like us is the *default* setting in humanity. Why is preferring one's race bad?

Well, the good news for you is that Christianity beat you to the punch by 2,000 years.

It is not for Jew nor Greek alone; it's not for a specific tribe or race of people. Christ came to save the entire world. Christianity is universal, which is why you had everyone from Asians to Africans to Middle Easterners to Northern Europeans in the early Church.

Sapper Redux said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Certain people cannot overcome "systems of oppression" without his help. Some people call it the white savior complex. But it's just plain old self righteousness.

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Again, fascinating. What makes you think I consider myself to be the best or only person capable of dismantling systemic issues? Wouldn't it make sense that systemic problems would require large scale efforts from various groups with different backgrounds and expertise?

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White savior complex is not limited to one person. You're a little savior in a sea of many wanting the approval of men. I know you view yourself as one of these "experts", but this "large scale effort" is no different than the Pharisees and their excess burdens. It's system with no hope. A religion with no grace.

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Except "woke" didn't originate within white culture.

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I know. It's sad white people hijacked it. They can't help but make themselves the center of attention under the guise of calling themselves "advocates."

I'd argue it didn't get "hijacked" until people started trying to change what it meant altogether. And that was primarily done by those who use the word negatively or mockingly.

We are lucky to have these Christians that know with absolute certainty that their way is the morally absolutely correct and superior way and that all other ways are inferior and wrong. They know with absolutely certainty that they are right and everyone else is wrong.

We are lucky to have them to call out the self righteousness in the woke movement.

Serotonin said:

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Quote:

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Given the long, disturbing history of race within Christianity

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You are an intelligent guy but seriously, where do you get this stuff?

The history of humanity is one of constant violence and conquest. A genetic look at our DNA shows this.

Racism and preference for people within our tribe or who look like us is the *default* setting in humanity. Why is preferring one's race bad?

Well, the good news for you is that Christianity beat you to the punch by 2,000 years.

It is not for Jew nor Greek alone; it's not for a specific tribe or race of people. Christ came to save the entire world. Christianity is universal, which is why you had everyone from Asians to Africans to Middle Easterners to Northern Europeans in the early Church.

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Where do I get this stuff? I mean, do you know where the Southern Baptist Convention came from and why? Why the UMC called itself "United" and what originally split the Methodists? Why there are specific Black denominations in America and why they aren't linked with any major European denominations?

Why is preferring one's race bad? Dunno. I'm just looking at human history and it doesn't seem to have a great track record.

Sapper Redux said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Certain people cannot overcome "systems of oppression" without his help. Some people call it the white savior complex. But it's just plain old self righteousness.

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Again, fascinating. What makes you think I consider myself to be the best or only person capable of dismantling systemic issues? Wouldn't it make sense that systemic problems would require large scale efforts from various groups with different backgrounds and expertise?

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White savior complex is not limited to one person. You're a little savior in a sea of many wanting the approval of men. I know you view yourself as one of these "experts", but this "large scale effort" is no different than the Pharisees and their excess burdens. It's system with no hope. A religion with no grace.

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You're quite sheltered. You should get out more and try to actually understand what others see and believe.

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You should tell that to the guy who said this:

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Is the fear about addressing bigotry in religion more politics or actual theology?

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Quote:

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Empire is intricately linked to Christianity and race was a huge factor in how Christianity was presented and spread for centuries beginning with Portuguese exploration. Creating a useful "Other" out of Jews and Muslims was done in the Dark Ages and continued to influence theology and politics for over a millennia. Whether an individual thinks they have a connection or not, the structures and processes and theology of Christianity is shaped by this history.

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Wasn't Christianity spread through Jewish disciples and non-Jewish converts from the beginning?

See Acts chapter 2.

Also, when we "processes and theology of Christianity was shaped" I think we need to draw a distinct line between these 2 things:

1. Christian theology is given by God to humanity through the prophets, apostles, Jesus in the flesh 2k years ago and is recorded in the scriptures.

2. Christianity is made of sinful people who see their need for God's forgiveness. These are broken people who have errored in practice and application of pure Christian Theology given by God over history. This misapplication (convert or die practices during the dark ages) while done in the name of Christianity couldn't be farther from what God's design for evangelism had been communicated.

Those evil practices done by Christian in the name of Christianity have stained and distorted people's image of who Christ is but have not stained the foundation of Christ Himself. Think about all of the amazing people of faith in Jesus who were slaves who saw through the malpractice of Christianity of the slaveholders and put their faith in Jesus for who He actually is.

Sapper Redux said:

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Serotonin said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Serotonin said:

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Quote:

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Given the long, disturbing history of race within Christianity

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You are an intelligent guy but seriously, where do you get this stuff?

The history of humanity is one of constant violence and conquest. A genetic look at our DNA shows this.

Racism and preference for people within our tribe or who look like us is the *default* setting in humanity. Why is preferring one's race bad?

Well, the good news for you is that Christianity beat you to the punch by 2,000 years.

It is not for Jew nor Greek alone; it's not for a specific tribe or race of people. Christ came to save the entire world. Christianity is universal, which is why you had everyone from Asians to Africans to Middle Easterners to Northern Europeans in the early Church.

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Where do I get this stuff? I mean, do you know where the Southern Baptist Convention came from and why? Why the UMC called itself "United" and what originally split the Methodists? Why there are specific Black denominations in America and why they aren't linked with any major European denominations?

Why is preferring one's race bad? Dunno. I'm just looking at human history and it doesn't seem to have a great track record.

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Yep, whites who wanted slavery and segregation from blacks. They probably hated Catholics and other Christians too.

But don't you think that's pretty irrelevant in the grand scope of Christian history? 99% of Christians throughout history have no connection to that and couldn't tell you the first thing about Southern Baptists.

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No. Empire is intricately linked to Christianity and race was a huge factor in how Christianity was presented and spread for centuries beginning with Portuguese exploration. Creating a useful "Other" out of Jews and Muslims was done in the Dark Ages and continued to influence theology and politics for over a millennia. Whether an individual thinks they have a connection or not, the structures and processes and theology of Christianity is shaped by this history.

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I think you're attributing normal features of human society (like conquest or in-group/out-group hierarchy) to Christianity while simultaneously overlooking positive features of Christianity and Christian society which make it different from others.

The last two posts are my thoughts exactly.

Sometimes I wonder if the non believers have recently stepped into a church and see what the people are actually like.

Serotonin said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Serotonin said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Serotonin said:

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Quote:

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Given the long, disturbing history of race within Christianity

---

You are an intelligent guy but seriously, where do you get this stuff?

The history of humanity is one of constant violence and conquest. A genetic look at our DNA shows this.

Racism and preference for people within our tribe or who look like us is the *default* setting in humanity. Why is preferring one's race bad?

Well, the good news for you is that Christianity beat you to the punch by 2,000 years.

It is not for Jew nor Greek alone; it's not for a specific tribe or race of people. Christ came to save the entire world. Christianity is universal, which is why you had everyone from Asians to Africans to Middle Easterners to Northern Europeans in the early Church.

---

Where do I get this stuff? I mean, do you know where the Southern Baptist Convention came from and why? Why the UMC called itself "United" and what originally split the Methodists? Why there are specific Black denominations in America and why they aren't linked with any major European denominations?

Why is preferring one's race bad? Dunno. I'm just looking at human history and it doesn't seem to have a great track record.

---

Yep, whites who wanted slavery and segregation from blacks. They probably hated Catholics and other Christians too.

But don't you think that's pretty irrelevant in the grand scope of Christian history? 99% of Christians throughout history have no connection to that and couldn't tell you the first thing about Southern Baptists.

---

No. Empire is intricately linked to Christianity and race was a huge factor in how Christianity was presented and spread for centuries beginning with Portuguese exploration. Creating a useful "Other" out of Jews and Muslims was done in the Dark Ages and continued to influence theology and politics for over a millennia. Whether an individual thinks they have a connection or not, the structures and processes and theology of Christianity is shaped by this history.

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I think you're attributing normal features of human society (like conquest or in-group/out-group hierarchy) to Christianity while simultaneously overlooking positive features of Christianity and Christian society which make it different from others.

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Maybe stop and think about how you frame things like this. And it's not just you. Zobel is great at this. It's never that Christianity is a part of the culture that both influences and is influenced by Empire and slavery and racism. Instead, it's always presented as though Christianity sits apart, almost like an orb or a Platonic form, and only ever interacts with the culture when it's a good thing.

I'm not arguing whether Christianity has any positive impact or history. Im not claiming it's all negative. But I am saying there's a in-group collective amnesia that refuses to look at the history of Christianity as an institution (or series of institutions) and a lived religion and instead tries to play "No True Scotsman" with its history and influence.

Sapper Redux said:

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Serotonin said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Serotonin said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Serotonin said:

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Quote:

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Given the long, disturbing history of race within Christianity

---

You are an intelligent guy but seriously, where do you get this stuff?

The history of humanity is one of constant violence and conquest. A genetic look at our DNA shows this.

Racism and preference for people within our tribe or who look like us is the *default* setting in humanity. Why is preferring one's race bad?

Well, the good news for you is that Christianity beat you to the punch by 2,000 years.

It is not for Jew nor Greek alone; it's not for a specific tribe or race of people. Christ came to save the entire world. Christianity is universal, which is why you had everyone from Asians to Africans to Middle Easterners to Northern Europeans in the early Church.

---

Where do I get this stuff? I mean, do you know where the Southern Baptist Convention came from and why? Why the UMC called itself "United" and what originally split the Methodists? Why there are specific Black denominations in America and why they aren't linked with any major European denominations?

Why is preferring one's race bad? Dunno. I'm just looking at human history and it doesn't seem to have a great track record.

---

Yep, whites who wanted slavery and segregation from blacks. They probably hated Catholics and other Christians too.

But don't you think that's pretty irrelevant in the grand scope of Christian history? 99% of Christians throughout history have no connection to that and couldn't tell you the first thing about Southern Baptists.

---

No. Empire is intricately linked to Christianity and race was a huge factor in how Christianity was presented and spread for centuries beginning with Portuguese exploration. Creating a useful "Other" out of Jews and Muslims was done in the Dark Ages and continued to influence theology and politics for over a millennia. Whether an individual thinks they have a connection or not, the structures and processes and theology of Christianity is shaped by this history.

---

I think you're attributing normal features of human society (like conquest or in-group/out-group hierarchy) to Christianity while simultaneously overlooking positive features of Christianity and Christian society which make it different from others.

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Maybe stop and think about how you frame things like this. And it's not just you. Zobel is great at this. It's never that Christianity is a part of the culture that both influences and is influenced by Empire and slavery and racism. Instead, it's always presented as though Christianity sits apart, almost like an orb or a Platonic form, and only ever interacts with the culture when it's a good thing.

I'm not arguing whether Christianity has any positive impact or history. Im not claiming it's all negative. But I am saying there's a in-group collective amnesia that refuses to look at the history of Christianity as an institution (or series of institutions) and a lived religion and instead tries to play "No True Scotsman" with its history and influence.

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With all due respect, when is the last time you posted something positive about Christianity? When is the last time you were in a church and witness what it was actually about?