Protestant feeling the pull of Catholicism questions

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Blanco Jimenez
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1:44p, 6/5/23
AG
This may be a TLDR for a lot of folks but I've lurked here a long time and I'm in search of some answers. A little background, I've been Protestant my whole life. I grew up an ELCA Lutheran and converted to Southern Baptist in my mid 20's because the ELCA had, in my opinion, gone entirely too far left and away from God's word. Fast forward a few years and I've married another Baptist and have kids.

There is something about the Catholic Mass that has always been a draw for me. It's become something that has been on my heart and mind a lot lately. I honestly have been feeling that as Baptist, our church service is just too casual. Not in dress but in reverence for the Lord and the Word. On major church holidays, I take my family to church with my parents in the Lutheran church because I feel the need for the formality, but even this Easter, it wasn't near enough.

I have the desire to learn more. I feel like I need to learn more but there's a few roadblocks. First is that I am very involved in my congregation. I just served on our pastor search committee for close to a year to replace our pastor. My wife has even been asked if I had interest in being a deacon in the congregation. I feel like I have a strong personal relationship with my Savior even though I constantly fall short of where I should be as a Christian.

Second, my wife is a cradle to the grave Southern Baptist. She has very strong anti-Catholic stances and feelings and makes that known. My sister converted to Catholicism when she married so I get to hear about it sometimes. It is important to me that my family goes to church together. I want my wife and sons with me in church.

My question here is, how can I reconcile this? I know many conversations will need to be had with my family, but I foresee major road blocks. How can I learn more about the Church before I have these conversations? I also want to make sure that these feelings I have about Catholicism are real and that it's truly something I want to explore more.

I appreciate any guidance on this. I know a lot of you are strong in your faith and look forward to learning more.
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Zobel
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In reply to Blanco Jimenez • 1:48p, 6/5/23
AG
That's where I was with becoming Orthodox, more or less. I think the important thing with any spiritual experience is that the proof is in the fruit. If what you are experiencing is from God, it will pull you further into relationship with Him. If pursuing this in your life yields fruit in you, then it is the right thing to do.

For me, the biggest draw was come and see. What you read in a book, what you read online... that's not the same as the direct encounter. Go visit a church, and if you encounter Christ in that place you will know.
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BluHorseShu
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In reply to Blanco Jimenez • 2:00p, 6/5/23
AG
Blanco Jimenez said:
This may be a TLDR for a lot of folks but I've lurked here a long time and I'm in search of some answers. A little background, I've been Protestant my whole life. I grew up an ELCA Lutheran and converted to Southern Baptist in my mid 20's because the ELCA had, in my opinion, gone entirely too far left and away from God's word. Fast forward a few years and I've married another Baptist and have kids.

There is something about the Catholic Mass that has always been a draw for me. It's become something that has been on my heart and mind a lot lately. I honestly have been feeling that as Baptist, our church service is just too casual. Not in dress but in reverence for the Lord and the Word. On major church holidays, I take my family to church with my parents in the Lutheran church because I feel the need for the formality, but even this Easter, it wasn't near enough.

I have the desire to learn more. I feel like I need to learn more but there's a few roadblocks. First is that I am very involved in my congregation. I just served on our pastor search committee for close to a year to replace our pastor. My wife has even been asked if I had interest in being a deacon in the congregation. I feel like I have a strong personal relationship with my Savior even though I constantly fall short of where I should be as a Christian.

Second, my wife is a cradle to the grave Southern Baptist. She has very strong anti-Catholic stances and feelings and makes that known. My sister converted to Catholicism when she married so I get to hear about it sometimes. It is important to me that my family goes to church together. I want my wife and sons with me in church.

My question here is, how can I reconcile this? I know many conversations will need to be had with my family, but I foresee major road blocks. How can I learn more about the Church before I have these conversations? I also want to make sure that these feelings I have about Catholicism are real and that it's truly something I want to explore more.

I appreciate any guidance on this. I know a lot of you are strong in your faith and look forward to learning more.
My wife and I were the opposite. I was SB most of my life and my wife is Catholic. As an SB...I can tell you that 1)I had been taught a lot of negative things about what Catholics believe (and just trusted my Baptist ministers) and 2) Even when I began to realize those things were not true, I still had hesitation because these things were so engrained. It took me a couple of years before I committed to going through RCIA. I spoke to some trusted protestant friends (mostly Younglife mentors and FCA) and to local Catholic priests. Both said the identical thing when I asked how to proceed..."Read your scripture, look at church history and pray". What I find in RCIA was that everything I believed about Catholics was wrong...but also that many cradle Catholics 1) held their beliefs because the Church said so and 2) held some incorrect beliefs. It was kind of funny because the young priest teaching the class ended up teaching both those converting and those already Catholic. I also dove deep into Catholic apologetics to satisfy my understanding of scriptural/historical support for Catholic doctrine. That was huge because I also found that Catholics and many protestants agree on many things...they just use different terms to describe them.
Ultimately it was the best thing and was obvious that Christ led me in this direction. I still disagree with the Church on things that aren't doctrinal (usually just personal opinions that lean more left than I like), but it has brought our family very close in prayer and study of scripture.
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UTExan
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In reply to Blanco Jimenez • 2:14p, 6/5/23
Every denomination has had moments or times when clergy lied or was deceived about other denominations. High church worship is compelling for a number of reasons, but so is low church revivalism. One place to start may be with a local Catholic charismatic group which has the ability to bridge the Catholic-Protestant divide. You will still have to confront certain beliefs such as papal infallibility, the role of Mary and ugly incidents in the church's past, all of which put me off Catholicism as in membership. Additionally, their Council of Bishops espouses liberal political positions with which I cannot identify.
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
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FIDO95
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In reply to Blanco Jimenez • 3:16p, 6/5/23
AG
This is a great book written by a former Presbyterian minister and his wifes' conversion to Catholicism. It answers a lot of questions about the Catholic Church and dispels a lot of misconceptions, i.e. papal infallibility.

Rome Sweet Home: Our Journey to Catholicism: Hahn, Kimberly, Hahn, Scott: 9780898704785: Amazon.com: Books

The Church has a lot of scandal. There is no getting around that and there is no defending some of it. However, any institution over 2000 years old is going to collect some mars as it is ultimately run by man and man is fallen. That said, true salvation is found in your personal relationship to Christ. That relationship is best developed in an environment most suited for you, Catholic or other, as long as your willing to ask the right questions and be open to God's grace. I have learned lots of things from Protestant ministers but there is something in the Sacraments that brings me peace and makes the Catholic church the best place for me.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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dermdoc
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In reply to FIDO95 • 3:30p, 6/5/23
AG
FIDO95 said:
This is a great book written by a former Presbyterian minister and his wifes' conversion to Catholicism. It answers a lot of questions about the Catholic Church and dispels a lot of misconceptions, i.e. papal infallibility.

Rome Sweet Home: Our Journey to Catholicism: Hahn, Kimberly, Hahn, Scott: 9780898704785: Amazon.com: Books

The Church has a lot of scandal. There is no getting around that and there is no defending some of it. However, any institution over 2000 years old is going to collect some mars as it is ultimately run by man and man is fallen. That said, true salvation is found in your personal relationship to Christ. That relationship is best developed in an environment most suited for you, Catholic or other, as long as your willing to ask the right questions and be open to God's grace. I have learned lots of things from Protestant ministers but there is something in the Sacraments that brings me peace and makes the Catholic church the best place for me.


Agree completely. I really like Orthodox theology but things happened that I firmly believe was the work of God and we are at Brazos Fellowship which is non denominational but essentially Baptist with better music.

God put some people in my life that got me involved in a weekly Bible group which has been wonderful.

The key is the relationship with God through Christ and the Holy Spirit.

God will put you in the right place for you.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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jrico2727
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In reply to FIDO95 • 3:34p, 6/5/23
AG
FIDO95 said:
This is a great book written by a former Presbyterian minister and his wifes' conversion to Catholicism. It answers a lot of questions about the Catholic Church and dispels a lot of misconceptions, i.e. papal infallibility.

Rome Sweet Home: Our Journey to Catholicism: Hahn, Kimberly, Hahn, Scott: 9780898704785: Amazon.com: Books

The Church has a lot of scandal. There is no getting around that and there is no defending some of it. However, any institution over 2000 years old is going to collect some mars as it is ultimately run by man and man is fallen. That said, true salvation is found in your personal relationship to Christ. That relationship is best developed in an environment most suited for you, Catholic or other, as long as your willing to ask the right questions and be open to God's grace. I have learned lots of things from Protestant ministers but there is something in the Sacraments that brings me peace and makes the Catholic church the best place for me.
First thing that came to my mind was this book too.
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FTACo88-FDT24dad
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7:34p, 6/5/23
AG
Can't go wrong with any book by Dr Hahn.

I would also recommend listening to and reading Dr David Anders.

http://calvin2catholic.com/

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AgLiving06
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In reply to Blanco Jimenez • 7:38p, 6/5/23
Have you checked out your local LCMS church?

Avoids the problems of the ELCA, has a proper Divine Service (most of the time) and for your wife, we are the original protestors/reformers of the errors of Rome.
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Bird Poo
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10:23p, 6/5/23
AG
Surprised by Truth was a great book when I was discerning to convert. It's a quick read that could answer some basic questions from your wife, and written in a patient and loving way.
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one MEEN Ag
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In reply to Blanco Jimenez • 9:26a, 6/6/23
AG
Blanco,

My wife and I have had a similar story and interactions with the southern baptist churches we grew up in/joined in adulthood. There were three big pivotal moments for us was realizing that our church home decisions were not 'independent decisions' but stood within a 2000 year continuum of church thought that we had not really walked through.

1) There are very large theological rifts that happened that most protestants just accept on face value. How do you view the schism of 1054 between orthodox and catholics? Or what about the reformation in the 1500s? Or what about Zwingli or Luther? Or specifically for modern baptists, why did the anabaptists decide to baptize at an age of reason? What even is baptism? There's a lot of church history that modern baptist churches gloss over and my view of why they do that is because it doesn't paint a good picture of the protesting part of protestantism.

2) We saw baptist church structures move from one building+congregation to multiple sites with layers of leadership. While railing on the laity/priest/bishop hierarchy of other denominations they quietly created their own.

3) Scriptural authority. We were asking ourselves, what came first the bible or the church?

A couple of really helpful resources were:
The youtube channels of 10minutebiblehour where Matt interviewed pastors of all denominations and asked them to explain their rationale. Also ReadyToHarvest explaining the basics of denominations in a very cut and dry perspective.

As we started to learn more about the Orthodox church, we were really drawn (and still are) to Lord of Spirits and The Whole Counsel of God podcasts. Just incredible breakdown of theology. You'll see your faith in a whole new light once you get a grasp of what the OT teaches, foreshadows, and how Jesus shows up in the OT.

Know the Faith By Michael Shanbour is a great book that walks through a lot of this in an easy to digest way.

But Zobel hit the nail on the head here. Come and See is the best answer. All the podcasts in the world are just an appetizer to showing up on Sunday, participating in the feasts, fasts, and liturgical services. Learning about the saint's lives and the piety they had in the face of great struggles. Seeing the devoutness of faith from the laity is incredibly refreshing after all the 'customer' interactions we had previously. Its been life changing for us as a family.

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AGC
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In reply to one MEEN Ag • 9:47a, 6/6/23
AG
one MEEN Ag said:
Blanco,

My wife and I have had a similar story and interactions with the southern baptist churches we grew up in/joined in adulthood. There were three big pivotal moments for us was realizing that our church home decisions were not 'independent decisions' but stood within a 2000 year continuum of church thought that we had not really walked through.

1) There are very large theological rifts that happened that most protestants just accept on face value. How do you view the schism of 1054 between orthodox and catholics? Or what about the reformation in the 1500s? Or what about Zwingli or Luther? Or specifically for modern baptists, why did the anabaptists decide to baptize at an age of reason? What even is baptism? There's a lot of church history that modern baptist churches gloss over and my view of why they do that is because it doesn't paint a good picture of the protesting part of protestantism.

2) We saw baptist church structures move from one building+congregation to multiple sites with layers of leadership. While railing on the laity/priest/bishop hierarchy of other denominations they quietly created their own.

3) Scriptural authority. We were asking ourselves, what came first the bible or the church?

A couple of really helpful resources were:
The youtube channels of 10minutebiblehour where Matt interviewed pastors of all denominations and asked them to explain their rationale. Also ReadyToHarvest explaining the basics of denominations in a very cut and dry perspective.

As we started to learn more about the Orthodox church, we were really drawn (and still are) to Lord of Spirits and The Whole Counsel of God podcasts. Just incredible breakdown of theology. You'll see your faith in a whole new light once you get a grasp of what the OT teaches, foreshadows, and how Jesus shows up in the OT.

Know the Faith By Michael Shanbour is a great book that walks through a lot of this in an easy to digest way.

But Zobel hit the nail on the head here. Come and See is the best answer. All the podcasts in the world are just an appetizer to showing up on Sunday, participating in the feasts, fasts, and liturgical services. Learning about the saint's lives and the piety they had in the face of great struggles. Seeing the devoutness of faith from the laity is incredibly refreshing after all the 'customer' interactions we had previously. Its been life changing for us as a family.



I echo this (though I'm Anglican / Anglo-catholic - ACNA, GAFCON affiliation with high church liturgy).

The hardest part will be bringing your family along if they're not ready. I took my kids three weeks in a row but our transition was easy since they attended the parochial school for years before we visited on a Sunday. My wife went the first week but was sick/working the other two. I was ready to move churches after that because I'd been wanting to move on for years due to many of the reasons above. She took three months to leave even though she didn't have a lot of deep friendships where we were despite 10 years of attendance (that's another story). We're over two years in and she's still making a home there because the rhythms are different for women than where we came from.

I have another friend who was just chrismated into the Orthodox Church and left at the same time. He's got two kids and the oldest just graduated and they hung around at the Baptist church for her (he did two Sunday services for over a year). His wife will attend but is a long way from joining. One more year and they may be fully out but it's been a long process.

Be patient with your spouse and children as you go through this. Love them well but realize unless everyone is on board together you may be split between churches for years.

Edit: I think the best thing you can do to brung your wife along is show your kids the 'why' behind things. Having church fathers, a liturgical calendar, and tradition helps explain a lot of what is done. In the world of liquid modernity where nothing has a foundation people are grasping for something reliable and consistent and that's what apostolic succession and our historical churches offer.
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one MEEN Ag
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In reply to AGC • 10:09a, 6/6/23
AG
When I brought the idea of visiting an orthodox church up to my wife there was definitely some hesitation and a lot of, 'I'm gonna trust you on this one but I'm not sold initially.' My wife didn't have any really close relationships at our previous church so it wasn't hard to hit the eject button on that.

But one book that really helped my wife process all the changes and differences was listening to the audiobook, "Welcome to the Orthodox Church". Also watching the 10minute bible hour 3 hour series on the orthodox church.

The book is written by a woman and the audiobook is orated by a woman as well. Almost every couple we've interacted with at this church has the husband leading the wife and kids to church [which is a great thing]. So my wife appreciated a woman's perspective (even though its written as a neutral book) on arriving at the orthodox church.

My wife is now fully into it. We've got icons, an icon corner, incense, morning/evening prayers with the family, fasting calendars, and she's made some great friendships from other genuine women at the church.

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AGC
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In reply to one MEEN Ag • 10:28a, 6/6/23
AG
one MEEN Ag said:
When I brought the idea of visiting an orthodox church up to my wife there was definitely some hesitation and a lot of, 'I'm gonna trust you on this one but I'm not sold initially.' My wife didn't have any really close relationships at our previous church so it wasn't hard to hit the eject button on that.

But one book that really helped my wife process all the changes and differences was listening to the audiobook, "Welcome to the Orthodox Church". Also watching the 10minute bible hour 3 hour series on the orthodox church.

The book is written by a woman and the audiobook is orated by a woman as well. Almost every couple we've interacted with at this church has the husband leading the wife and kids to church [which is a great thing]. So my wife appreciated a woman's perspective (even though its written as a neutral book) on arriving at the orthodox church.

My wife is now fully into it. We've got icons, an icon corner, incense, morning/evening prayers with the family, fasting calendars, and she's made some great friendships from other genuine women at the church.



My wife grew up Methodist and made the suggestion we take our kids for that first visit since it was All Saints Day and they hadn't seen liturgical worship. Whoops! Don't think she realized (nor did I) how ready I was to leave our Baptist church until I had no urge to go back after three visits. That was the hard part.

Finding a group of women who read and think deeply and have margin beyond their children has helped her ease into it. But really my wife's an introvert and has very little bandwidth for friends so it will always be hard as she has few deep friendships.

We'd go orthodox in a heartbeat if our church ceased to exist now and have already talked about it.
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DirtDiver
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10:32a, 6/6/23

Jn 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

Truth is one of the requirements for worship. I've been in a discussion with a lifelong friend who has friends who live a particular lifestyle and feel like they are deeply connected to God in their worship. These friends are engages in a sexual lifestyle they believe God embraces.

While God loves all sinners to the degree He give His Son for them, the Bible is filled with the requirements of approaching God on His terms.

So how do we as Christians filter through the options available to us? The fear of the Lord (reverence) is the beginning of wisdom and some of the more ritualistic church denominations hold to this however do they worship God in Truth? Do they error? How egregious is the error? Do I sacrifice Truth in my pursuit of reverential worship?

My starting point would be Truth. (This can be applied to any church choice, not just protestant vs Catholic)

Doctrine of Salvation: Do you believe that salvation is a free gift by God received through an act of faith in His son Jesus? Or do you believe you have to be religiously dedicated for God to forgive you?

Doctrine of the Trinity: Do you believe Jesus is God AND the Son of God? The same but different?

Doctrine of Scripture: Where the church differs from the scriptures, is the church right or the scriptures?

Doctrine of Eternal Security: Can I undone the work that Jesus did the moment I was justified? (What one believes about how they lose their salvation is often a clue as to what they are trusting in for their salvation).

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Zobel
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In reply to AGC • 10:37a, 6/6/23
AG
Kids in service is the best thing
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AGC
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In reply to Zobel • 11:06a, 6/6/23
AG
Zobel said:
Kids in service is the best thing


Agreed. Our Anglican church is the same way and I would not go back to a church where even small children don't worship with their families.
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NowhereMan
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3:35p, 6/6/23
First - Formality can draw people in but most people do not understand what becoming Catholic means.

1. Because of the Latin in place of the Greek understanding of justification, you will no longer be justified by faith, iinstead you are becoming justified as you add your good works to the works of Christ, and will probably be heading to purgatory. Your children will not have assurance that you are in heaven when you pass, because you are in purgatory according to your faith. They also will not be justified by grace without works, your family surrenders your assurance to the church and unless you are Mother Teresa, it's purgatory.

2. Somewhat because of Aquinas you will be fusing Greek philosophy to you the text which opens up the Priest to symbolizing the scripture and then telling you what it really means, which means what he says it means, so you are under the authority the priest more than God's word, because you don't know the symbols.

3. You will be told Augustine over reacted to Pelagius, and to ignore anything that sounds protestant.

4. You will be under a Pope who comes with liberation theology of Central America

5. You will be able to get an annulment if you need to re-marry for any reason.

6. I suggest you take some NT Greek, study the Gospel of John and Romans, then read the Catholic Catechism.

This is a serious decision that should not be made on the pomp and circumstance of the Mass, the Anglicans and Mo Synod Lutherans offer you a formality without accepting Grace + Works from the Council of Trent.
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B-1 83
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1:29p, 6/7/23
AG
Teacher Wife '82 was Catholic and I was raised Southern Baptist (brother is a Community Baptist minister), but I readily agreed to have the kids baptized in the Catholic Church. I even attended Mass with them for years before I converted.

I, too, loved the Mass and so many aspects of The Church. I was amazed at all of the completely wrong things I was "taught" about the Catholic faith in my previous 26 years……. When I joined the Knights of Columbus, they asked all of us who were converts in one ceremony to stand up. The priest told everyone to look "these will likely be better Catholics than those of you raised in The Church".
Being in TexAgs jail changes a man……..no, not really
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PabloSerna
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In reply to NowhereMan • 2:02p, 6/7/23
AG
1. Not gonna de-rail the thread, however, your understanding of the Catholic position on faith and works is off.
2. Priest in the RCC are bound by magisterial teaching, so - no. Also, Aquinas is one of a few "Doctors" of the church, as such, we believe that God informed much (not all) of his writings.
3. We have much to learn from our Protestant brothers and sisters. There are ecumenical councils working across the denominations.
4. Umm, no. However, you may have to explain this rational further.
5. I think you meant "won't" be able to get an annulment- very true. The sacrament of Holy Matrimony is very serious- as it should.
6. I suggest you jump right in.

Welcome to the Church brother!
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PabloSerna
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In reply to Blanco Jimenez • 2:13p, 6/7/23
AG
"One, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church"

+++

As others have suggested "go and see". I will say that it is the Eucharist (real presence of Jesus) that forever changed my life. I was one of those cradle Catholics you hear/read about that went to religious education classes, mass, and Catholic school but knew nothing of the real presence (c. 1994). I was at one of those crossroads in life and all that kept me from leaving the church was a brief encounter I had as an altar boy at Christ the King school in elementary. I felt the presence of God at the moment of consecration. I was ringing the bells that day. It was unlike any feeling I have had since.

I had to know. So I asked and asked, read and read, highly recommend Dr. Hahn, went to conferences- you name it- I went into the deep.

Go deep!

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FIDO95
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In reply to PabloSerna • 2:51p, 6/7/23
AG
Ditto. Cradle Catholic who learned nothing in 10 years of CCD. Just went through the motions and had no personal relationship with Christ. I got really interested in apologetics as a Junior in HS and have never looked back.

On another thread, a poster called the Catholic mass a borefest. I suspect if you don't have an appreciation or understanding of the mass it would probably feel that way. I posted the following video and the exact same poster later replied, "that was amazing!". He failed to realize that this was/is what I see and experience every time I go to mass. As I mentioned earlier, I have appreciated many Protestant sermons. There is always something new to learn. However, l find the participation with the sacraments a necessary part of my Christian life.


No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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Win At Life
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4:01p, 6/7/23
AG
Really. My post got deleted? I guess staff is Catholic, because dissenting views must not be allowed even if they are easily verified to be true.
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Zobel
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In reply to Win At Life • 4:49p, 6/7/23
AG
Yeah that must be why it was deleted, too much truth.
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Txducker
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In reply to AgLiving06 • 5:55p, 6/8/23
AG
AgLiving06 said:
Have you checked out your local LCMS church?

Avoids the problems of the ELCA, has a proper Divine Service (most of the time) and for your wife, we are the original protestors/reformers of the errors of Rome.
I second this recommendation for the same reasons listed. I appreciate the traditional/literal view of the bible and not changing its interpretation to fit the modern culture.
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ag009
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7:52p, 6/8/23
AG
Similar story. Ended up at a small ACNA (Anglican) church and it has really been the best transition for our family (we have 3 younger kids). Check out if one is in your area and if you are in BCS I know my church would love to have y'all.
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aggie4christ22
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4:07p, 6/9/23
As a former Baptist (with a deacon grandfather), small Texas town etc. I converted to Catholicism in college before I married my husband (a cradle Catholic). I tried several other churches in college (non-denom, Methodist, Lutheran, etc) but none really clicked until I went to St. Mary's in BCS. I went through RCIA which I would strongly recommend you and your wife do, as I also had many of the same misconceptions about the church told to me by my Baptist preachers and family. My mom still argues with me a lot about it (worship of Mary, the Pope, etc). My grandmother, when she was alive, would send me newspaper clippings in the mail of any Catholic priest arrested for pedophilia; right after I converted. It took them a long time to see that I did not just do it since I was getting married, though it was what started it. I went to mass for 8 years before converting. I still struggle with some of the doctrine but trust in it. Same with transubstantiation, that was a big stumbling block for me for a while.

I would strongly recommend RCIA to answer your questions in person and be able to ask questions, and to also listen to Fr. Mike Schmidt's Catechism in a year podcast going on right now, as well as his Bible in a Year podcast. I learn something just about every day listening to it and it's easy to do on the drive to work.
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OilManAg91
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7:04a, 6/10/23
AG
The Reformation was concerned with these two central issues:

- is the ultimate source of truth scripture in its original form (sola scripture) or is Roman Catholic tradition primary with scripture as secondary

Out of the answer to this question comes:

- are we made right with God through the free gift of grace through faith in Christ with good works as evidence of salvation (that is the works do not contribute to salvation so you can have assurance of your salvation because it is a free gift that cannot be lost) vs salvation is through faith + works (that is good works are required to earn salvation so you can never be sure you have done enough to be saved and/or you can lose your salvation if you don't do enough good works).

All the other questions about sacraments, liturgy, infallibility, style of service, doctrine, etc, etc, etc evolve out of these topics. I encourage you to read the Bible (specifically Romans, Ephesians, and Galatians…the ESV is the most literal to the original text from a scholarship perspective) along with numerous other good books, study, pray and talk with mature Christians all you can to settle the above 2 points.

Ultimately everything depends on the answers to these 2 questions.
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fka ftc
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7:27a, 6/10/23
Develop a strong personal relationship with God and the rest will follow. If that is an organized church, great. If you choose to fellowship virtually with a preacher show you like, great.

Whether you choose to go to church, synagogue or mosque, your personal relationship with God is the foundation.
"The absence of the word accountability is not the same as wanting no accountability" -unknown

"You can never go wrong by staying silent if there is nothing apt to say" -Walter Isaacson
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OilManAg91
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In reply to fka ftc • 7:45a, 6/10/23
AG
fka ftc said:
Develop a strong personal relationship with God and the rest will follow. If that is an organized church, great. If you choose to fellowship virtually with a preacher show you like, great.

Whether you choose to go to church, synagogue or mosque, your personal relationship with God is the foundation.
This is a mainstream view, but it ignores conflicting and irreconcilable differences between the "church, synagogue or mosque" as you say. It is the object of your faith that saves you, not the genuineness of your faith. You can have genuine, heartfelt and sincere faith in a false truth about who God is and still be wrong. Conversely, an incomplete, doubting but trusting faith in the true God is saving.

It all comes down to the question of truth and who God really is. If Jesus is not the messiah then God is Yahweh alone. If God is Allah then there is no trinity and salvation is through works. If Jesus is the messiah then God is the trinity. If he an impersonal lifeforce then Buddhism/Confucianism/etc is correct…these are differences that cannot be ignored. Actual truth is not relative and dependent on your beliefs. 2+ 2 = 4 whether you believe it or not. God is not dependent on your beliefs.
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The Banned
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In reply to OilManAg91 • 8:18a, 6/10/23
OilManAg91 said:
The Reformation was concerned with these two central issues:

- is the ultimate source of truth scripture in its original form (sola scripture) or is Roman Catholic tradition primary with scripture as secondary

Out of the answer to this question comes:

- are we made right with God through the free gift of grace through faith in Christ with good works as evidence of salvation (that is the works do not contribute to salvation so you can have assurance of your salvation because it is a free gift that cannot be lost) vs salvation is through faith + works (that is good works are required to earn salvation so you can never be sure you have done enough to be saved and/or you can lose your salvation if you don't do enough good works).

All the other questions about sacraments, liturgy, infallibility, style of service, doctrine, etc, etc, etc evolve out of these topics. I encourage you to read the Bible (specifically Romans, Ephesians, and Galatians…the ESV is the most literal to the original text from a scholarship perspective) along with numerous other good books, study, pray and talk with mature Christians all you can to settle the above 2 points.

Ultimately everything depends on the answers to these 2 questions.


Quick point of clarification about "earning" salvation. The Catholic Church has never taught this. Luther was incorrect and we have documents that preceded him by many years to prove it. It's why Lutherans, Methodist, Anglicans and Catholics were able to sign a joint declaration of faith. Luther was a priest that didn't know what his own faith taught, but to his credit, he did see some priests abusing indulgences.

https://www.catholic.com/qa/did-the-catholic-church-come-around-to-the-lutheran-position-on-faith-justification-and-works
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Zobel
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In reply to OilManAg91 • 8:31a, 6/10/23
AG
The first is a false dichotomy and the second is an incorrect understanding of the non-Protestant tradition. You have framed the discussion rather poorly which begs the question to arrive at your preferred outcome.
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OilManAg91
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8:36a, 6/10/23
AG
I'm not defending Luther, the reformation was much bigger than just him. The Roman Catholic Church in its most recent 1992 updated catechism irrefutably teaches the order of salvation is faith + works => salvation. The question is does scripture teach this concept or does it teach faith => salvation => which produces works…it is a very big difference.
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OilManAg91
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In reply to Zobel • 8:37a, 6/10/23
AG
How is it a false dichotomy…that is nonsensical. And I am crystal clear on the catholic view so I reject your point on #2…and you didn't provide any legitimate points to support assertions.
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Zobel
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In reply to OilManAg91 • 8:38a, 6/10/23
AG
Again, I don't think you understand their position. Or at least you're using a selective definition of salvation.
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