Quote:
NO, this is NOT my argument. This has never been my argument - and the position you keep trying to force me into is not required for Mary to be the Woman giving birth. Your fixation with this literal vs. figurative requirement and applying that to Apocalyptic scripture is dumbfounding to me. You have done this multiple times where you are telling me what position I must be arguing and the ramifications of the position you have given me and then just declare I am wrong because tradition is bad. This is called a straw-man.
I know it's not your argument, but I use it to show the absolute mess of your attempted argument. You want to claim that because it says woman, it MUST Be an actual woman, yet because of your unwritten tradition (and nothing more), you have to immediately reject everything that describes the woman as figurative because you have conflict between the written and unwritten. That's the problem that every Sola Scriptura person inherently realizes with your unwritten traditions. Unwritten traditions supercede written by necessity.
Quote:
I could do the same thing to you because in Joesph's dream there were only 11 stars but in Revelation there are 12 stars so clearly your position does not follow - but I won't do that because I can accept there is some imagery being drawn from Genesis 37, and at the same time see the Woman is clearly alluding to Mary at least in some (more obvious and significant) ways. John's apocalyptic writing has layers upon layers upon layers of imagery where many things have multiple meanings. To EXCLUDE Mary as being part of that imagery in Revelation 12 is borderline heretical.
I suspect John wanted you to make this exact connection. Joseph's dream saw him saving all of his family, and the creation of Israel, and John wants you to think of that exact story to see the 12 tribes and make the connection of the birth of Israel with the birth of the Christian Church through the 12 apostles.
It's absolutely silly to claim it's heretical to not see Mary in Revelation 12. It's actually kind of shocking to see you through that word around to be honest.
Quote:
Sorry, brother but you are totally missing the boat with your thought process to the point I honestly can't even understand what you are trying to make me argue with your whole literal/figurative jumping back and forth stuff. I've addressed it earlier in this thread but it is absolutely ridiculous.
It's not and why I continue to point out at the top the dance you have to do, not to align with the written Scripture, but to align with the unwritten traditions. You make this verse about Mary, but then have to figure out a way around every other sentence. That "should" cause you to pause and wonder why you're having to do that.
Quote:
It is your position that Revelation 12 is drawing from Genesis 37 and Joesph's dream because of the sun and the moon, and that Rev 12 is in NO WAY WHATSOEVER alluding to Mary - who actually gives birth to a male child who will conquer sin and rule all the nations. If I have not stated your position accurately please correct me, but if this is indeed your position as you have stated then it is completely untenable.
My position is that Revelation 12 is mostly likely talking of Israel and/or the Christian Church. That's the view best supported within the text itself. John is paralleling the establishment of Israel via Joseph's dream so that we see the continuity of the establishment of the Christian Church. It does not require the literal/figurative dance you are attempting and aligns with John's consistent reference to the OT as the basis for this book.
If you desire to make a typological argument, as you've attempted, you're free to do so (I won't call you a heretic), but as I already pointed out, typological arguments acknowledge the text isn't on your side and so you're relying on a hidden meaning to justify your position.
It's also consistent with the historic view of the Church.
Hippolytus of Rome (2nd-3rd Century) wrote the following: Schaff Link"60. Now, concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary, John also speaks thus: "And I saw a great and wondrous sign in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars. And she, being with child, cries, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man-child, who is to rule all the nations: and the child was caught up unto God and to His throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath the place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And then when the dragon saw
it, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man-
child. And to the woman were given two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast (out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast) out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the saints of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus."
61.
By the woman then clothed with the sun," he meant most manifestly the Church, endued with the Father's word, whose brightness is above the sun. And by the "moon under her feet" he referred to her being adorned, like the moon, with heavenly glory. And the words, "upon her head a crown of twelve stars," refer to the twelve apostles by whom the Church was founded. And those, "she, being with child, cries, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered," mean that the Church will not cease to bear from her heart the Word that is persecuted by the unbelieving in the world. "And she brought forth," he says, "a man-child, who is to rule all the nations;" by which is meant that the Church, always bringing forth Christ, the perfect man-child of God, who is declared to be God and man, becomes the instructor of all the nations. And the words, "her child was caught up unto God and to His throne," signify that he who is always born of her is a heavenly king, and not an earthly; even as David also declared of old when he said, "The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit Thou at my right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool." "And the dragon," he says, "saw and persecuted the woman which brought forth the man-
child. And to the woman were given two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks concealment in the wilderness among the mountains, possessed of no other defence than the two wings of the great eagle, that is to say, the faith of Jesus Christ, who, in stretching forth His holy hands on the holy tree, unfolded two wings, the right and the left, and called to Him all who believed upon Him, and covered them as a hen her chickens. For by the mouth of Malachi also He speaks thus: "And unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in His wings.""
