Catholics and being born again...

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Thaddeus73
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AG
Catholics believe being born again of water and the spirit is a direct reference to Baptism.

Being born spiritually means that you have to have a spiritual mother, unless you are a test-tube Christian.

Jesus, in His last will and testament from the cross, gave mankind His only possession on earth, His Mother, when he told his disciple (all believers are disciples of Christ) in John 19:27, "Behold YOUR Mother."

In Galatians 4:5, St. Paul says that we are adopted into Jesus' family, which means Mary is our spiritual Mother........."to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons."

Just as Eve became our physical mother at the foot of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:20), just so, Mary became our spiritual mother at the foot of the tree of life known as the cross (John 19:27)....
Martin Q. Blank
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Tell me again why we shouldn't worship this woman who is the mother of the church, gave birth to us spiritually, and redeems us who are under the law? She sounds like God.
Thaddeus73
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AG
We don't worship her. No one is asking her to climb up on the cross. We treat her as Jesus did, we honor her...She is holy by grace, not by nature, as Jesus is.... And by the way, Catholics believe that people in heaven are alive, not dead, like the Bible says...
Martin Q. Blank
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Quote:

We don't worship her.
Why not? She is our redeemer, makes us alive, born again, etc.
Thaddeus73
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AG
If you would read your bible, you will find that Mary's soul (very much alive today) MAGNIFIES the Lord (Makes him larger, clearer, and more focused in the world, which are great things), and she claims Jesus as her savior....Or, you can keep on spouting ignorance of what the Bible actually says and teaches...

Luke 1:46: "My soul magnifies the Lord,

47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,

Martin Q. Blank
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Is she our redeemer? Your OP says yes.
Is she the church's mother? Your OP says yes.
Does she make us born again? Your OP says yes.
Thaddeus73
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AG
Quote:

Is she our redeemer? Your OP says yes.
Is she the church's mother? Your OP says yes.
Does she make us born again? Your OP says yes.
#1 - You lie. Jesus is.
#2 - Truth
#3 - Lie - Baptism does
Martin Q. Blank
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Thaddeus73 said:

Quote:

Is she our redeemer? Your OP says yes.
Is she the church's mother? Your OP says yes.
Does she make us born again? Your OP says yes.
#1 - You lie. Jesus is.
#2 - Truth
#3 - Lie - Baptism does
#1 which means Mary is our spiritual Mother........."to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons."

#3 Being born spiritually means that you have to have a spiritual mother, unless you are a test-tube Christian.

You may want to reword your OP.
Thaddeus73
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AG
The reference to adoption that Paul speaks about does not mention Mary as a redeemer. Jesus is that person. But to be adopted into one's family means that you have a mother as well. When we adopted our two kids, I was their father, and my wife was their mother. This isn't rocket science...
Martin Q. Blank
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Thaddeus73 said:

The reference to adoption that Paul speaks about does not mention Mary as a redeemer. Jesus is that person. But to be adopted into one's family means that you have a mother as well. When we adopted our two kids, I was their father, and my wife was their mother. This isn't rocket science...
When the Father begat the Son before all worlds, did it necessarily require a mother?
Thaddeus73
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AG
So you're saying Jesus was created?
Martin Q. Blank
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Thaddeus73 said:

So you're saying Jesus was created?
"begotten not made"
Thaddeus73
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AG
I agree...He chose to have a mother to be born here on earth; The Ark of the New Covenant, the Blessed Virgin Mary, gratia plena...
Martin Q. Blank
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Thaddeus73 said:

I agree...He chose to have a mother to be born here on earth; The Ark of the New Covenant, the Blessed Virgin Mary, gratia plena...
So back to your statement But to be adopted into one's family means that you have a mother as well. When the Father begat the Son before all worlds, did it necessarily require a mother?
Thaddeus73
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AG
Being born on earth in time and space did require a mother. Jesus always was in eternity, and therefore required no mother before the world began, as he is eternal. Do you not understand this?
Martin Q. Blank
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So what makes you think receiving adoption as God's sons requires a mother?
DirtDiver
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Quote:

Catholics believe being born again of water and the spirit is a direct reference to Baptism.
Let's look at the passage...

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus *said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"

Observation: Nicodemus is thinking about natural birth.

5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Observation: Jesus mentions being born of water and Spirit. There are 2 things here.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Observation: "That" is a connection word connection this verse the the previous one. It a term of explanation. Jesus is explaining verse 5 with verse 6.
Observation 2: There are 2 things being explained. Water = being born of flesh. (Baptism is not mentioned here). Spiritual birth is the emphasis.

7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."



Quote:

Being born spiritually means that you have to have a spiritual mother, unless you are a test-tube Christian

Biblically being born spiritually is something that happens the moment a person believes in the good news about Jesus...

John 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvationhaving also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Quote:


Jesus, in His last will and testament from the cross, gave mankind His only possession on earth, His Mother, when he told his disciple (all believers are disciples of Christ) in John 19:27, "Behold YOUR Mother."
John 19:26 When Jesus then saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He *said to His mother, "Woman, behold, your son!" 27 Then He *said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" From that hour the disciple took her into his own household.


Quote:

In Galatians 4:5, St. Paul says that we are adopted into Jesus' family, which means Mary is our spiritual Mother........."to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons."

Galatians 4:5 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

God is adopting us however I do not see the Mary is.

14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

Quote:

Just as Eve became our physical mother at the foot of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:20), just so, Mary became our spiritual mother at the foot of the tree of life known as the cross (John 19:27)....
This an interpretive conclusion not well supported by the text of John 19:27.
Faithful Ag
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Quote:

This an interpretive conclusion not well supported by the text of John 19:27.


This is an interpretive conclusion very well supported by the totality of the scriptures from Genesis through the OT and NT and seen the the Apocalypse of John.

Jesus was born of the spirit when he was begotten in the very beginning. He was born of the flesh when he entered our fallen world by taking on flesh through the Blessed Virgin Mary. Despite being God Incarnate, he required John the Baptist to Baptize him in the Jordan and the Holy Spirit descended like a dove. If Jesus required baptism for himself, how much more do we need baptism. There is both a physical and Spiritual aspect to baptism.

I think one of the fundamental issues these threads always come back to is HOW we approach the Holy Scriptures. As Catholics we tend to approach them broadly and allow typology to help us connect the story and see the meaning being conveyed and help let the puzzle pieces come together. Protestants tend to use more of a proof-text approach where verses are quoted and referenced to build support for positions or make the case they are wanting to make.

I think it's the reason we are always talking past each other, using common words that have slightly different meanings or nuances, and we fail to recognize where beliefs are getting lost in translation.

If the "anti"-Catholics on this board were able to take a small step back from the Biblical interpretive traditions and "proof-text" approach they have been raised or brought up with - I think they would find much less hostility toward Catholic beliefs. Most of our disagreements are a failure to be able to properly communicate in a way that the other side can properly understand.

It's frustrating for sure but I'll keep trying to defend the faith where possible and there is good will and charity.

Thaddeus73
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In the bible, water and spirit are always together at new creation/beginning...

Genesis 1 when the world was born...

At the Red Sea Crossing, when the pillar of fire split the Red Sea for the new life of the Israelites (Paul refers to this event as the Baptism for the Jews)...

And at the Baptism of Jesus, when the spirit appeared with the water of Baptism for mankind's new creation in Jesus Christ....
dermdoc
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Agree.

I believe all Christians are born again and emdued with the Holy Spirit.

Not just Catholics. And I am not anti Catholic. But the way the OP was worded is sort of divisive.
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Thaddeus73
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AG


I agree with St. Augustine....
Martin Q. Blank
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Thaddeus73 said:



I agree with St. Augustine....
That quote doesn't say anything about "being born spiritually means that you have to have a spiritual mother" who happens to be Mary.
dermdoc
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Thaddeus73 said:



I agree with St. Augustine....
So do you agree with St. Augustine on the eternal destination of infants who die before baptism?
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Thaddeus73
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Being born requires a mother....It's just the way things are in the world...Sorry if you don't agree with that!
dermdoc
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Granted Vatican II softened some of harsh Augustinian theology. No forced conversions or killing of heretics.

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DirtDiver
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Quote:

This is an interpretive conclusion very well supported by the totality of the scriptures from Genesis through the OT and NT and seen the the Apocalypse of John.

Jesus was born of the spirit when he was begotten in the very beginning.

This seems to imply that the Spirit gave birth to Jesus and that Jesus is not co-eternal with God the Father and God the Spirit.



Quote:

He was born of the flesh when he entered our fallen world by taking on flesh through the Blessed Virgin Mary.
No disagreement here.


Quote:

Despite being God Incarnate, he required John the Baptist to Baptize him in the Jordan and the Holy Spirit descended like a dove. If Jesus required baptism for himself, how much more do we need baptism. There is both a physical and Spiritual aspect to baptism.

I think there's a huge difference between Jesus permitting John to baptism Him and between Jesus requiring baptism.

Why did Jesus require baptism?

29 The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him and *said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.' 31 I did not recognize Him, but so that He might be manifested to Israel, I came baptizing in water." 32 John testified saying, "I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. 33 I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, 'He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.' 34 I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God."


Quote:

I think one of the fundamental issues these threads always come back to is HOW we approach the Holy Scriptures. As Catholics we tend to approach them broadly and allow typology to help us connect the story and see the meaning being conveyed and help let the puzzle pieces come together. Protestants tend to use more of a proof-text approach where verses are quoted and referenced to build support for positions or make the case they are wanting to make.

A church's error (whether it's catholic or non-catholic) can be measured to the degree in which it deviates from the word of God.
Ol_Ag_02
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Pretty sure Jesus just wanted John to take care of his mother since she was most likely a widow; and "from that time on, this disciple took her into his home." Nothing else to it.

Implying that since Jesus gave his mother to one of his disciples, and since we all are all disciples, Jesus must have gave his mother to all of us, is quite the stretch.

And yet requiring us to have a "Mother" in order to be born again of Christ's sacrifice is pretty akin to saying Jesus couldnt get it done on his own and needed Mary's help. If he needed Mary's help either he's not truly God, or Mary is.
jkag89
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But what about all those siblings Jesus had?
AgLiving06
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Matthew 12

46 While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. 48 But he replied to the man who told him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49 And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."
Ol_Ag_02
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AG
jkag89 said:

But what about all those siblings Jesus had?


I thought you guys said he didn't have any siblings.
jkag89
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Edit: In fact I'm somewhat disappointed in you Ol Ag.
dermdoc
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AG
jkag89 said:



Edit: In fact I'm somewhat disappointed in you Ol Ag.


I got it.
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jkag89
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We're going to make you a papist yet Derm.

BluHorseShu
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AG
Ol_Ag_02 said:

Pretty sure Jesus just wanted John to take care of his mother since she was most likely a widow; and "from that time on, this disciple took her into his home." Nothing else to it.

Implying that since Jesus gave his mother to one of his disciples, and since we all are all disciples, Jesus must have gave his mother to all of us, is quite the stretch.

And yet requiring us to have a "Mother" in order to be born again of Christ's sacrifice is pretty akin to saying Jesus couldnt get it done on his own and needed Mary's help. If he needed Mary's help either he's not truly God, or Mary is.
So to your first point...Jesus' statement was just extraneous? Why would that be included in Scripture if it wasn't part of the Word? Your last point doesn't make sense. The Church just recognizes the highly unique and special place Mary had in helping bring Christ into this world. God could have done it a number of ways...but he chose a very special person...who he made 'full of grace'. As a protestant, I didn't realize how much we downplayed Mary in scripture until I became Catholic. She was mentioned during Christmas plays, but other than that, she was just treated as another in a long list of people in the bible without any real meaning other than a footnote.
BluHorseShu
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AG
Ol_Ag_02 said:

jkag89 said:

But what about all those siblings Jesus had?


I thought you guys said he didn't have any siblings.
These are the jokes OlAg. Seriously though...no one said Jesus didn't have siblings...its just we don't believe they were Mary's children. They could be step brothers or cousins. The Greek term used to describe them in the original text is used for the same.
 
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