Synonyms of torment 1 : extreme pain or anguish of body or mind : AGONY She wrung her hands piteously together, looking like a soul in torment.Lucy Maud Montgomery
2 : a source of vexation or pain Love is a delight; but hate a torment.Herman Melville
… the twin torments of his probable manic depression and chronic stomach pains.Neal Karlen
3 : the infliction of torture (as by rack or wheel)
Apparently, the word torment in the Bible also refers to refining and testing.
Did your pastor/preacher/priest teach you this? Neither did mine.
Revelation 14:10 NIV he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
That verse is talking about Satan. Satan will be tested in the presence of Jesus himself and why? Because Jesus himself is supervising the testing and transformation, but let's get past that for a moment and get back to the word "torment" in the Bible.
Here is a 17-minute video that discusses the Biblical concept of "torment".
Synonyms of torment 1 : extreme pain or anguish of body or mind : AGONY She wrung her hands piteously together, looking like a soul in torment.Lucy Maud Montgomery
2 : a source of vexation or pain Love is a delight; but hate a torment.Herman Melville
… the twin torments of his probable manic depression and chronic stomach pains.Neal Karlen
3 : the infliction of torture (as by rack or wheel)
Apparently, the word torment in the Bible also refers to refining and testing.
Did your pastor/preacher/priest teach you this? Neither did mine.
Revelation 14:10 NIV he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
That verse is talking about Satan. Satan will be tested in the presence of Jesus himself and why? Because Jesus himself is supervising the testing and transformation, but let's get past that for a moment and get back to the word "torment" in the Bible.
Here is a 17-minute video that discusses the Biblical concept of "torment".
My definition is having to listen to Taylor Swift on repeat because my girls love her.
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
to question by applying torture
to torture
to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
to be harassed, distressed
[ol]
of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind
[/ol][/ol]
When using dictionaries we often get a range of meanings. The next step is to unpack the immediate context to see which options fits best.
Example: Trunk - "put the peanuts in the trunk"
1. Does this mean a car trunk? 2. Does this mean an elephant trunk?
It's impossible to know without the context.
When doing this with Biblical words it helps to know. 1. The immediate context in which the word is used. 2. How the author used the word in other contexts 3. Lower priority: do we have that word in other greek or hebrew literature to know how the audience would have defined that word?
Here is every use of the word "torment" in the NT.
NT word use: 12 times Matthew 8:6 5 And when Jesus entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, imploring Him, 6 and saying, "Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, fearfully tormented." 7 Jesus *said to him, "I will come and heal him."
Matthew 8:29, Mark 5:7, Luke 8:28 And they cried out, saying, "What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"
Matt 14:24 But the boat was already a long distance from the land, battered by the waves; for the wind was contrary.
Mark 6:48 Seeing them straining at the oars, for the wind was against them, at about the fourth watch of the night He *came to them, walking on the sea; and He intended to pass by them.
2 Peter 2:8 7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men 8 (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds), 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,
Revelation 9:5 And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man.
Revelation 11:5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way. 6 These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.
7 When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9 Those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
Rev12:2 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 and she was with child; and she *cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.
Rev 14:9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Observation: In Rev. 21:10, the duration of the torment is forever, same word used to refer to the duration of the reign of God in Revelation.
Question 1: Do these verses point to the best definition of the word 'torment' being testing or painful torture?
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
to question by applying torture
to torture
to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
to be harassed, distressed
[ol]
of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind
[/ol][/ol]
When using dictionaries we often get a range of meanings. The next step is to unpack the immediate context to see which options fits best.
Example: Trunk - "put the peanuts in the trunk"
1. Does this mean a car trunk? 2. Does this mean an elephant trunk?
It's impossible to know without the context.
When doing this with Biblical words it helps to know. 1. The immediate context in which the word is used. 2. How the author used the word in other contexts 3. Lower priority: do we have that word in other greek or hebrew literature to know how the audience would have defined that word?
Here is every use of the word "torment" in the NT.
NT word use: 12 times Matthew 8:6 5 And when Jesus entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, imploring Him, 6 and saying, "Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, fearfully tormented." 7 Jesus *said to him, "I will come and heal him."
Matthew 8:29, Mark 5:7, Luke 8:28 And they cried out, saying, "What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"
Matt 14:24 But the boat was already a long distance from the land, battered by the waves; for the wind was contrary.
Mark 6:48 Seeing them straining at the oars, for the wind was against them, at about the fourth watch of the night He *came to them, walking on the sea; and He intended to pass by them.
2 Peter 2:8 7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men 8 (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds), 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,
Revelation 9:5 And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man.
Revelation 11:5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way. 6 These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.
7 When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9 Those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
Rev12:2 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 and she was with child; and she *cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.
Rev 14:9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Observation: In Rev. 21:10, the duration of the torment is forever, same word used to refer to the duration of the reign of God in Revelation.
Question 1: Do these verses point to the best definition of the word 'torment' being testing or painful torture?
Great post my brother! I think "torment" means both torture and testing, although not necessarily both every time it's used. Yes, context is everything.
God tests us constantly.
Mark 9:49 For everyone will be salted with fire.
Life is a test as well as a purification process for those that go to Christ. 1 John 3:3 esv And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.
God is a refiner. What does he refine? Us!
Zechariah 13:9 And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call upon my name, and I will answer them. I will say, 'They are my people'; and they will say, 'The Lord is my God.'"
In Jeremiah 9, God talks about how rebellious and evil his people are behaving. The 7th verse is very telling:
Jeremiah 9:1-7 Oh that my head were waters, and my eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people! 2 [b] Oh that I had in the desert a travelers' lodging place, that I might leave my people and go away from them! For they are all adulterers, a company of treacherous men. 3 They bend their tongue like a bow; falsehood and not truth has grown strong[c] in the land; for they proceed from evil to evil, and they do not know me, declares the Lord. 4 Let everyone beware of his neighbor, and put no trust in any brother, for every brother is a deceiver, and every neighbor goes about as a slanderer. 5 Everyone deceives his neighbor, and no one speaks the truth; they have taught their tongue to speak lies; they weary themselves committing iniquity. 6 Heaping oppression upon oppression, and deceit upon deceit, they refuse to know me, declares the Lord. 7 Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts: "Behold, I will refine them and test them, for what else can I do, because of my people?
Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Observation: In Rev. 21:10, the duration of the torment is forever, same word used to refer to the duration of the reign of God in Revelation.
That translation is erroneous.
Here is the correct translation:
Revelation 20:10 YLT and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.
Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Ask yourself, what is the purpose of brimstone? Brimstone was/is a refining, cleansing agent. If John had been around to see modern washing machines and laundry soap, he may have instead said that "the devil was thrown into the washing machine with detergent".
The devil isn't being tortured forever and without purpose, he is being tested for a period of time for the purpose of refinement and restoration. Yes, even Satan himself will go to Jesus and worship him!
1 Corinthians 15:22-28 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall ALL be made alive.23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.27 For "God[c] has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in ALL.
Jesus will reign over the kingdom until he has saved every person and every entity including Satan.
Unto the ages of ages is a Greek idiom which means forever and ever. Every worship service in Greek begins with the confession "blessed is the Kingdom of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, now and ever and unto the ages of ages."
"Now to our God and Father be the glory to the ages of the ages. Amen."
Every liturgy in the Orthodox Church opens with this phrase and it is repeated many times. You read the words, but you don't know what they mean.
Again, you're wrong and you despise me for telling you the truth. "Ages of the ages" does NOT mean "forever". In FACT, the Bible tells us that the ages will come to an end so, NO, it doesn't mean "forever".
Hebrews 9:26 esv For then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Yeah, the messianic age is the last age. That's different than unto ages of ages.
I don't despise you, you are just starting with a conclusions and forcing the words to mean what you want.
Your interpretation, applied consistently, means the glory of God and of Christ Jesus is not eternal. It's simply not correct.
On the other hand, we use it in our church as St. Paul does - to mean forever. Just as it has always been understood.
I go where the word of God takes me. That's how I got out of Catholicism. I didn't try to make God's words fit into Catholicism. On the contrary, I tried to make Catholicism fit with GOD'S word and I couldn't do it. The only honest thing to do was to recognize that Catholicism is not only inconsistent with God's words, but also at times contradicts God's words.
I read the verse in Hebrews that says the ages will have an end. I don't try to contort scripture to fit my own theological view, as you seemingly did when you said that "ages of ages" means "forever".
I think your issue is that you believe that your understanding of God and scripture is infallible and even when you're understanding is PROVEN by God's own words to be ERRONEOUS, your pride and vanity disallows you to acknowledge your misunderstanding and thank your brother in Christ that furthered your understanding.
I encourage you to let go of your pride and ego and have the necessary humility needed to allow yourself to learn from others. May God bless you always my brother.
Great post my brother! I think "torment" means both torture and testing, although not necessarily both every time it's used. Yes, context is everything.
Thank you.
Quote:
God tests us constantly.
I agree with this statement. Below are a few of the greek words associated with testing in the NT.
When I did the word study on 'torment' above, I found the greek word every time it's used in the NT.
Compare the following: 2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials (Peirasmos), 3 knowing that the testing (Dokimion) of your faith produces endurance.
Trials = Peirasmos = an experiment, attempt, trial, proving. A temptation testing = Dokimion - that by which something is tried or proved, a test test = to test, examine, prove, scrutinise (to see whether a thing is genuine or not), as metals
1 Corinthians 3:13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test Dokimazo the quality of each man's work.
The contextual dilemma
While I agree that God tests people and have provided examples above, and that the word Basanizo could mean testing. The specific context of the passages where Basanizo is used do not allow me to conclude that God is testing people at these points.
Case #1: Matthew 8:6 5 And when Jesus entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, imploring Him, 6 and saying, "Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, fearfully tormented." 7 Jesus *said to him, "I will come and heal him."
Is the paralyzed man fearfully in pain or fearfully tested? What is the test he must pass?
Case #2:Matt 14:24 But the boat was already a long distance from the land, battered by the waves; for the wind was contrary.
I could possibly consent here that 'battered' could be interpreted as being tested by the waves, however most boats go through a 'testing' phase before entering the water to ensure they are sea worthy. The waves are trying to tear the boat apart vs. see if it passes a test.
Case #3: 2 Peter 2:8 7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men 8 (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds), 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,
In this case tormented could be a possible test or he could be extremely frustrated by the godless society. Think of it this way: We may not be tempted or tested in anyway to join hands with the world that we live in however we can be exhausted of the current 'wokeness' of the world we live in now. I can see the greek work meaning either or in this context.
Case #4: Revelation 9:5 And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man.
There is not test to pass here, this is punishment.
Case #5: Revelation 11:5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way. 6 These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.
7 When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9 Those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
When the people tried to harm the 2 witnesses, they failed the test and have moved into the torment or punishment phase. Torment does not mean testing here.
Case #6: Rev12:2 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 and she was with child; and she *cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.
Labor pains are not a test. It's a punishment that resulted from humanity being cursed in the garden. It's a judgment vs a test. If a test, how does a woman pass the test?
Case #7 Rev 14:9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
The test is: Does anyone worship the beast and the image. The consequences of failing the test is drinking the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and torment with fire and brimstone.
Brimstone: Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven. Same greek word in the Septuagint in the OT.
The testing was over and brimstone was used as judgment. That brimstone is still there today.
