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What did Jesus mean "The gates of Hell will not prevail against it"?
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Last: 1 yr ago by Render
Hell is a gated community. Probably with an HOA.
Christ's Church will persevere and will not fall or be destroyed. It may and has gone through difficult times but it will prevail against. This includes the Church and its teachings. This can be seen in the Churches history going all the way back to Peter and the apostles.M1Buckeye said:
What is your belief?
ETA: This is another reason why it makes sense that Christ established an actual church with the attributes of perpetuity, indefectibility, visibility, and infallibility. To say that the Church ONLY is made up of all Christians is nebulous definition and certainly not something you could visibly assess with these attributes.
Quote:
Christ's Church will persevere and will not fall or be destroyed. It may and has gone through difficult times but it will prevail against. This includes the Church and its teachings. This can be seen in the Churches history going all the way back to Peter and the apostles.
ETA: This is another reason why it makes sense that Christ established an actual church with the attributes of perpetuity, indefectibility, visibility, and infallibility. To say that the Church ONLY is made up of all Christians is nebulous definition and certainly not something you could visibly assess with these attributes.
"The Church" has meaning 'redeemed people' has existed in perpetuity since Pentecost.
"The Church" being indefectible meaning "not subject to failure or decay : lasting. : free of faults : flawless." is not a Biblical concept.
Look at the churches in the NT scriptures: the church of Rome, Corinth, Ephesus, Laodicea, Sardis, etc. These churches are made of people some of are running the race well and some who are exhorted to obey in different areas they are failing in.
"Visibility" - The church being people has been in existence since Pentecost.
"Infallibility" - Only Jesus is infallible. No church is. A church can be measured by the degree they hold to the scriptures.
Was the "church' that you speak of infallible or indefectible when it promised eternal life to those who filled the coffers, died in a crusade, got buried in a certain location, or taught a convert or die gospel to indigenous people?
That the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church shall endure on earth until the Last Day.
The flames of the Imperium burn brightly in the hearts of men repulsed by degenerate modernity. Souls aflame with love of goodness, truth, beauty, justice, and order.
Best explanation for this I've heard:
It's not Hell; it's Hades, the realm of the dead. The gates of Hades separate the dead from the living, specifically by keeping the dead from returing to life. Christ defeated death, and the dead will live again with Christ. The gates of Hades can't stop this from happening.
It's not Hell; it's Hades, the realm of the dead. The gates of Hades separate the dead from the living, specifically by keeping the dead from returing to life. Christ defeated death, and the dead will live again with Christ. The gates of Hades can't stop this from happening.
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Amen brother.ramblin_ag02 said:
Best explanation for this I've heard:
It's not Hell; it's Hades, the realm of the dead. The gates of Hades separate the dead from the living, specifically by keeping the dead from returing to life. Christ defeated death, and the dead will live again with Christ. The gates of Hades can't stop this from happening.
I heard another describe it like this.
In those days it was symobolically understand that to overcome an enemy's "gates" was to conquer them. As you alluded to, the gates of "Hell" will NOT be able to withstand Jesus and his church and Hell will fall to Jesus!
What I glean is that Jesus will overcome Hell as well as ALL enemies and that he will actually convert them, even Satan, the fallen angels, and demons.
Anyway, I think the common understanding about the verse is that the church will be on the defense and will prevail in its defense. But actually it demonstrates that Jesus is on the OFFENSE and nothing will stop him from fulfilling the will of the Father!
John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Can you please provide 3 passages of scripture to support the claim that Jesus will convert Satan and demons?Quote:
What I glean is that Jesus will overcome Hell as well as ALL enemies and that he will actually convert them, even Satan, the fallen angels, and demons.
Rush the gates.
Satan, the "fallen" angels, and demons are doing exactly what God created them to do.DirtDiver said:Can you please provide 3 passages of scripture to support the claim that Jesus will convert Satan and demons?Quote:
What I glean is that Jesus will overcome Hell as well as ALL enemies and that he will actually convert them, even Satan, the fallen angels, and demons.
In Revelation 14:10 Christ himself is supervising the "torment" (testing) of Satan. What is the purpose of that? It's for transforming Satan.
Revelation 14:10 esv
he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Jesus will fix Satan, his angels, and the demons because Jesus is GREAT, Jesus is JUST and Jesus is capable!
Rocag said:
Hell is a gated community. Probably with an HOA.
Well, to be fair, HOAs are from the devil.
REV 14:9 Says, "anyone" not Satan. Not sure where M1 is going with this, however, I asked this very question, "Can Lucifer be saved?" to a rather knowledgeable theologian some years back. Maybe it was because I did not understand the difference between angelic beings and human beings- but I was told that Lucifer has made up his mind already and because of pride- is forever against God's salvific plan for mankind. So much so that the Latin, "non serviam" is attributed to Lucifer and many groups that follow Satanism.DirtDiver said:Can you please provide 3 passages of scripture to support the claim that Jesus will convert Satan and demons?Quote:
What I glean is that Jesus will overcome Hell as well as ALL enemies and that he will actually convert them, even Satan, the fallen angels, and demons.
As explained, angelic beings are more highly developed than human beings, but are not all knowing. They have a free will, and do not change their will like humans do because of their understanding (right or wrong). Even when Jesus walked this earth, there were people in Nazareth, who rejected Jesus the Son of God. Jesus was unable to perform any miracles in that town (MK 6:5). So it follows, that the fallen angels are much more resolved in their hate for God's creation- they have made up their mind, they flat out - will not serve.
There is zero chance for the fallen angels to be saved. Their decision to reject God's will was a once and for all, permanent decision with no chance of changing. This is doctrine.PabloSerna said:REV 14:9 Says, "anyone" not Satan. Not sure where M1 is going with this, however, I asked this very question, "Can Lucifer be saved?" to a rather knowledgeable theologian some years back. Maybe it was because I did not understand the difference between angelic beings and human beings- but I was told that Lucifer has made up his mind already and because of pride- is forever against God's salvific plan for mankind. So much so that the Latin, "non serviam" is attributed to Lucifer and many groups that follow Satanism.DirtDiver said:Can you please provide 3 passages of scripture to support the claim that Jesus will convert Satan and demons?Quote:
What I glean is that Jesus will overcome Hell as well as ALL enemies and that he will actually convert them, even Satan, the fallen angels, and demons.
As explained, angelic beings are more highly developed than human beings, but are not all knowing. They have a free will, and do not change their will like humans do because of their understanding (right or wrong). Even when Jesus walked this earth, there were people in Nazareth, who rejected Jesus the Son of God. Jesus was unable to perform any miracles in that town (MK 6:5). So it follows, that the fallen angels are much more resolved in their hate for God's creation- they have made up their mind, they flat out - will not serve.
The Catechism gives a direct answer to this question. I will quote the four numbers in full, since they give an excellent summary of what we know about demons.
- 391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy. Scripture and the Church's Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called "Satan" or the "devil". The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."
- 392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels. This "fall" consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter's words to our first parents: "You will be like God." The devil "has sinned from the beginning"; he is "a liar and the father of lies".
- 393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels' sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death."
- 414 Satan or the devil and the other demons are fallen angels who have freely refused to serve God and his plan. Their choice against God is definitive. They try to associate man in their revolt against God.
The Church clearly teaches that fallen angels, demons, are definitively separated from God; they cannot repent from their sin, as we can. Why is this? It has to do with their spiritual nature. In our human nature, our intelligence and will (the spiritual powers of our soul) operate through the mediations of our senses and our emotions, of time and space, of the material universe. Those limitations create room, so to speak, for us to change our minds. We often make decisions without having full knowledge or awareness of all the factors involved, and without having full freedom from emotional biases. This is not the case with angels. They are pure spirits. They are not limited by time and space, by material mediations, as we are. And so, an angel's rebellion against God is definitive, a clear and unequivocal rejection of God's sovereignty and goodness. There is no going back from that decision, and they would never want to go back from it.
https://spiritualdirection.com/2015/03/23/can-demons-repent
As for the gates of hell, I don't know if that's a reference to perdition or the abode of the dead, but I have heard Bishop Barron describe it as the church pushing in or forcing open the gates of hell as opposed to the gates of hell opening into the kingdom of God, so to speak.
It's my guess that God transformed Satan and the so-called "fallen" angels to serve God's purpose for them, which is to act as forces of evil in this world for our development and edification. Do you really believe thtat Heavenly angels would actually choose to rebel against God? I don't.FTACo88-FDT24dad said:There is zero chance for the fallen angels to be saved. Their decision to reject God's will was a once and for all, permanent decision with no chance of changing. This is doctrine.PabloSerna said:REV 14:9 Says, "anyone" not Satan. Not sure where M1 is going with this, however, I asked this very question, "Can Lucifer be saved?" to a rather knowledgeable theologian some years back. Maybe it was because I did not understand the difference between angelic beings and human beings- but I was told that Lucifer has made up his mind already and because of pride- is forever against God's salvific plan for mankind. So much so that the Latin, "non serviam" is attributed to Lucifer and many groups that follow Satanism.DirtDiver said:Can you please provide 3 passages of scripture to support the claim that Jesus will convert Satan and demons?Quote:
What I glean is that Jesus will overcome Hell as well as ALL enemies and that he will actually convert them, even Satan, the fallen angels, and demons.
As explained, angelic beings are more highly developed than human beings, but are not all knowing. They have a free will, and do not change their will like humans do because of their understanding (right or wrong). Even when Jesus walked this earth, there were people in Nazareth, who rejected Jesus the Son of God. Jesus was unable to perform any miracles in that town (MK 6:5). So it follows, that the fallen angels are much more resolved in their hate for God's creation- they have made up their mind, they flat out - will not serve.
PabloSerna said:"Can Lucifer be saved?"DirtDiver said:Can you please provide 3 passages of scripture to support the claim that Jesus will convert Satan and demons?Quote:
What I glean is that Jesus will overcome Hell as well as ALL enemies and that he will actually convert them, even Satan, the fallen angels, and demons.
Yes, he can be saved and WILL be saved.
Revelation 14:10 niv
they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb
Again, the process of "tormenting" in Biblical terms relates (usually) to refining and testing. Why does John mention sulfur? Sulfur is a purifying agent. And why is Satan "tormented" with sulfur in the presence of Jesus? It's because Jesus himself is directly supervising the purification and transformation of Satan. Why else would Jesus be there? You don't think Jesus is there because he gets off on watching creatures suffer, right? Of course not.
Christ Jesus says it is better that Judas should never have been born, but he will end up in Paradise?
M1Buckeye said:PabloSerna said:"Can Lucifer be saved?"DirtDiver said:Can you please provide 3 passages of scripture to support the claim that Jesus will convert Satan and demons?Quote:
What I glean is that Jesus will overcome Hell as well as ALL enemies and that he will actually convert them, even Satan, the fallen angels, and demons.
Yes, he can be saved and WILL be saved.
Revelation 14:10 niv
they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb
Again, the process of "tormenting" in Biblical terms relates (usually) to refining and testing. Why does John mention sulfur? Sulfur is a purifying agent. And why is Satan "tormented" with sulfur in the presence of Jesus? It's because Jesus himself is directly supervising the purification and transformation of Satan. Why else would Jesus be there? You don't think Jesus is there because he gets off on watching creatures suffer, right? Of course not.
You say that the doctrines of the Catholic Church make no sense and then post this madlbs of eisegesis?
Am I seeing something in the scriptures that isn't there?Dies Irae said:M1Buckeye said:PabloSerna said:"Can Lucifer be saved?"DirtDiver said:Can you please provide 3 passages of scripture to support the claim that Jesus will convert Satan and demons?Quote:
What I glean is that Jesus will overcome Hell as well as ALL enemies and that he will actually convert them, even Satan, the fallen angels, and demons.
Yes, he can be saved and WILL be saved.
Revelation 14:10 niv
they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb
Again, the process of "tormenting" in Biblical terms relates (usually) to refining and testing. Why does John mention sulfur? Sulfur is a purifying agent. And why is Satan "tormented" with sulfur in the presence of Jesus? It's because Jesus himself is directly supervising the purification and transformation of Satan. Why else would Jesus be there? You don't think Jesus is there because he gets off on watching creatures suffer, right? Of course not.
You say that the doctrines of the Catholic Church make no sense and then post this madlbs of eisegesis?
If Revelation 14:10 is NOT about transforming Satan, then we can surmise that it's describing Jesus watching Satan being tortured forever and ever.
Is that what you believe Jesus does? What is the nature of God and of his son, who we are told is the EXACT imprint of the Father?
1 John 4:7-14
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
M1Buckeye said:Am I seeing something in the scriptures that isn't there?Dies Irae said:M1Buckeye said:PabloSerna said:"Can Lucifer be saved?"DirtDiver said:Can you please provide 3 passages of scripture to support the claim that Jesus will convert Satan and demons?Quote:
What I glean is that Jesus will overcome Hell as well as ALL enemies and that he will actually convert them, even Satan, the fallen angels, and demons.
Yes, he can be saved and WILL be saved.
Revelation 14:10 niv
they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb
Again, the process of "tormenting" in Biblical terms relates (usually) to refining and testing. Why does John mention sulfur? Sulfur is a purifying agent. And why is Satan "tormented" with sulfur in the presence of Jesus? It's because Jesus himself is directly supervising the purification and transformation of Satan. Why else would Jesus be there? You don't think Jesus is there because he gets off on watching creatures suffer, right? Of course not.
You say that the doctrines of the Catholic Church make no sense and then post this madlbs of eisegesis?
If Revelation 14:10 is NOT about transforming Satan, then we can surmise that it's describing Jesus watching Satan being tortured forever and ever.
Is that what you believe Jesus does? What is the nature of God and of his son, who we are told is the EXACT imprint of the Father?
1 John 4:7-14
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
Yes, let's switch from Satan to an even easier character; Judas. In scripture he is called the Son of Perdition, and it said it "would have been better that he had never been born". How does that square with someone who eventually ends up in Paradise? If Judas gets eternal damnation, why not Satan?
Dies Irae said:M1Buckeye said:Am I seeing something in the scriptures that isn't there?Dies Irae said:M1Buckeye said:PabloSerna said:"Can Lucifer be saved?"DirtDiver said:Can you please provide 3 passages of scripture to support the claim that Jesus will convert Satan and demons?Quote:
What I glean is that Jesus will overcome Hell as well as ALL enemies and that he will actually convert them, even Satan, the fallen angels, and demons.
Yes, he can be saved and WILL be saved.
Revelation 14:10 niv
they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb
Again, the process of "tormenting" in Biblical terms relates (usually) to refining and testing. Why does John mention sulfur? Sulfur is a purifying agent. And why is Satan "tormented" with sulfur in the presence of Jesus? It's because Jesus himself is directly supervising the purification and transformation of Satan. Why else would Jesus be there? You don't think Jesus is there because he gets off on watching creatures suffer, right? Of course not.
You say that the doctrines of the Catholic Church make no sense and then post this madlbs of eisegesis?
If Revelation 14:10 is NOT about transforming Satan, then we can surmise that it's describing Jesus watching Satan being tortured forever and ever.
Is that what you believe Jesus does? What is the nature of God and of his son, who we are told is the EXACT imprint of the Father?
1 John 4:7-14
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
Yes, let's switch from Satan to an even easier character; Judas. In scripture he is called the Son of Perdition, and it said it "would have been better that he had never been born". How does that square with someone who eventually ends up in Paradise? If Judas gets eternal damnation, why not Satan?
Ecclesiastes 6:3
English Standard Version
3 If a man fathers a hundred children and lives many years, so that the days of his years are many, but his soul is not satisfied with life's good things, and he also has no burial, I say that a stillborn child is better off than he.
It's possible that Jesus was saying that it would have been better for Judas if he had been a stillborn, not that he should never have existed.
nm
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