If I love your mother, that doesn't mean I love you less....

Thaddeus73 said:

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Asking a saint in heaven for intercessory prayer is much more powerful than asking a person on earth for intercessory prayer...James 5:16 ...and they can pray for you 24/7, even when you are asleep or even sinning....

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James 5:16 doesn't say anything about talking to dead people. It's quite a leap to interpret "praying for one another" to mean asking dead people for help.

I don't believe that praying the rosary is from God. I actually believe it's a demonic doctrine meant to lead people away from God and instead to one of his human servants.

The Catholic Church teaches us to "serve Mary" The Catholic Church claims that Mary herself told them that "Whoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall receive signal graces".

Mary was/is a humble, faithful, servant of God. She would NEVER ask people to "serve me".


In Revelation 22:3-5 we are told that God will sit on the throne and be worshipped. No mention whatsoever of Mary.

Revelation 22:3-5
3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.

Also, Mary asking people to "serve me" directly contradicts what Jesus told us.

Luke 4:8 And Jesus answered him, "It is written, you shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve."

The image we get of worship in heaven is the saints and angels around the throne of God, praising and worshipping Him, and offering prayers and intercessions from the saints. Christ Jesus tells us whenever two or three gather, He is there. If He is there, so are the saints and angels; paradise is the place where God is. The saints can hear your prayers because they are there with Christ.

A consistent pattern I see here is that a lot of your scriptural interpretation is based on really poor etymological constructions, sometimes using English translation as a basis or sometimes a tortured definition from the Greek. Another consistent theme is coming up with novel personal interpretations on things which are and have been settled matters in Christian theology for centuries.

This example here, "serve," is emblematic of both. For starters, Luke 4:8 is not the source... it is a quote of Deuteronomy 6. The word serve in the Greek old testament and the text of the New Testament latreia, where we get the word "idolatry". It does not mean serve as in waiting a table, but religious service, or worship proper. There is a distinction made between showing obeisance (prokynesis) and worship (latreia). There is never a Christian doctrine that allows for or calls for anyone to worship - serve - latreia - anyone other than God. In fact this is explicitly idolatry. To accuse RCC people of latreia toward Mary is to suggest they are directly contradicting their own teaching. Which of course means that is not and cannot be what they teach. So of course Rev 22:3 is speaking of worship, latreia.

You can see this formal distinction in the Seventh Ecumenical Council, where the fathers say -

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We define that the holy icons, whether in color, mosaic, or some other material, should be exhibited in the holy churches of God, on the sacred vessels and liturgical vestments, on the walls, furnishings, and in houses and along the roads, namely the icons of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ, that of our Lady the Theotokos, those of the venerable angels and those of all saintly people. Whenever these representations are contemplated, they will cause those who look at them to commemorate and love their prototype. We define also that they should be kissed and that they are an object of veneration and honor (timitiki proskynisis), but not of worship (latreia), which is reserved for Him Who is the subject of our faith and is proper for the divine nature....

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The chief and highest worship, as St Paul teaches, happens in the Divine Liturgy when "we commend ourselves and each other and our whole lives to Christ our God" and when we offer ourselves and the gifts to God as sacrifice, asking Him to send His Holy Spirit upon us and upon the gifts. This is our rational worship, our "logiken latreian," the worship due from rational beings - to be "living sacrifices."

Armed with this understanding of the word being used here, and the Christian understanding of worship - to offer ourselves fully to Christ as living sacrifices - you can see the absurdity of claiming that Roman Catholics offer latreia to Mary.

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ames 5:16 doesn't say anything about talking to dead people. It's quite a leap to interpret "praying for one another" to mean asking dead people for help.

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If you truly believe that people in heaven are dead, then you aren't a "Bible" Christian. Luke 20:38 certainly says otherwise...Dead in the body does not equate to dead in the soul.

Thaddeus73 said:

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ames 5:16 doesn't say anything about talking to dead people. It's quite a leap to interpret "praying for one another" to mean asking dead people for help.

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If you truly believe that people in heaven are dead, then you aren't a "Bible" Christian. Luke 20:38 certainly says otherwise...Dead in the body does not equate to dead in the soul.

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I think you're missing my point. We're called to pray for one another. Yes, it's great for one to ask other LIVING people to pray for them. There is NOTHING in the Bible about asking people who have already left the physical realm to pray for us.

Thaddeus73 said:

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I don't believe that praying the rosary is from God. I actually believe it's a demonic doctrine meant to lead people away from God and instead to one of his human servants.

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How is meditating on Scripture while repeating words from the bible a demonic doctrine?

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Reading the rosary is nowhere in the Bible. Serving Mary is nowhere in the Bible. Reading the rosary is a man-made doctrine; it is not from God. The Catholic Church is, as I keep pointing out, of the world.

Of course, you must do what you believe is right. I don't begrudge you for reading the rosary if you believe that is pleasing to God. I don't believe it is, for reasons that I have already shared. God bless you my brother.

Zobel said:

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The saints can hear your prayers...

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Verse?

And even if they can "hear our prayers", are they the ones with the power to answer our prayers, or is that power God's alone?

If you think that praying to saints instead of to God is pleasing to God then that's what you should do. I myself believe that it's hurtful to God to pray to someone other than him. God gave us our lives, not "saints". God is the one that sent his son to save us from sin, not the saints. God is the one that is going to give us eternal life in a transformed world, not the saints. So why give the glory and honor that is God's alone to saints? As I aid, if you believe it's pleasing to God then do what you belive is right. For me, I'm praying directly to my creator.

Zobel said:

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There is never a Christian doctrine that allows for or calls for anyone to worship - serve - latreia - anyone other than God. In fact this is explicitly idolatry.

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Do you believe that Mary communicated the following to the Catholic Church?

"Whoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall receive signal graces".

M1Buckeye said:

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Zobel said:

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The saints can hear your prayers...

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Verse?

And even if they can "hear our prayers", are they the ones with the power to answer our prayers, or is that power God's alone?

If you think that praying to saints instead of to God is pleasing to God then that's what you should do. I myself believe that it's hurtful to God to pray to someone other than him. God gave us our lives, not "saints". God is the one that sent his son to save us from sin, not the saints. God is the one that is going to give us eternal life in a transformed world, not the saints. So why give the glory and honor that is God's alone to saints? As I aid, if you believe it's pleasing to God then do what you belive is right. For me, I'm praying directly to my creator.

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I told you why the saints can hear your prayers: because they are with Christ, and when we worship together we are with Christ.

When we ask saints for intercession we're asking them to pray for us.

It's not instead of. It's together with.

There is no giving glory to saints. You're arguing against a strawman.

If you are fine with it then why did you crap all over this thread criticizing others?

M1Buckeye said:

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Zobel said:

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There is never a Christian doctrine that allows for or calls for anyone to worship - serve - latreia - anyone other than God. In fact this is explicitly idolatry.

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Do you believe that Mary communicated the following to the Catholic Church?

"Whoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall receive signal graces".

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No idea, I'm not Catholic. But I do know that no RCC will suggest that "serve" means latreia, worship in that context.

Zobel said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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Zobel said:

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The saints can hear your prayers...

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Verse?

And even if they can "hear our prayers", are they the ones with the power to answer our prayers, or is that power God's alone?

If you think that praying to saints instead of to God is pleasing to God then that's what you should do. I myself believe that it's hurtful to God to pray to someone other than him. God gave us our lives, not "saints". God is the one that sent his son to save us from sin, not the saints. God is the one that is going to give us eternal life in a transformed world, not the saints. So why give the glory and honor that is God's alone to saints? As I aid, if you believe it's pleasing to God then do what you belive is right. For me, I'm praying directly to my creator.

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If you are fine with it then why did you crap all over this thread criticizing others?

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I'm simply communicating to the readers that the practice of reading the rosary is not Biblical and is NOT from God and actually contradicts God with its call to "serve" Mary. This is a discussion forum, not a Catholic Diocese.

M1Buckeye said:

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Zobel said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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Zobel said:

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The saints can hear your prayers...

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Verse?

And even if they can "hear our prayers", are they the ones with the power to answer our prayers, or is that power God's alone?

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The fact that you persist with this notion despite multiple posters attempting to dispel that misconception leads me to conclude that you are either willfully ignorant, blinded by your own dogma, or perhaps simply a troll. I'll make one last attempt: A prayer to Mary or a Saint is no different than you asking someone to pray for you. Are you worshipping your pastor if you ask him to pray for you? Is that akin to serving your pastor?

It makes no matter if someone is alive or dead in this world. We embark on this endeavor so that our souls may have eternal life in communion with God. I can think of no better person to ask to pray for me than someone whose soul is likely to have reached that state. I wouldn't expect you to accept that philosophy but at the very least, stop perpetuating a lie about what properly formed Catholics do and don't do.

"..pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death". I'm not asking Mary to answer my prayer, I'm asking her to pray for me throughout the day when I cannot be actively praying for myself.


"I'm simply communicating to the readers that the practice of reading the rosary is not Biblical and is NOT from God and actually contradicts God with its call to "serve" Mary. This is a discussion forum, not a Catholic Diocese. "

Do you not recognize the Christians who for hundreds of years practiced Christianity WITHOUT the bible? You do realize the Church is older than the Bible? What about all those Christians who for approximately 1400 years never actually saw a Bible? Many congregations prior to the invention of the Gutenberg press and Bible maintained their faith through tradition. Most people were illiterate up until the early part of the last century. They couldn't read a Bible even if they had one. Are they not worthy of God's kingdom because the only way to keep/strengthen their faith was through memorized prayers and devotions? I am in no way trying to minimize the importance of the Bible. It is divinely inspired yet subject to be misrepresented and misinterpreted by man. History has made that clear. I am only pointing out that attempting to decern your faith in a vacuum without tradition and historical context is likely to leave you with many blind spots just as often as accepting tradition without scriptural guidance.

Nonetheless, while you stand arrogantly on your lofty perch judging us all, perhaps it would be wise to consider Christs' words:

"2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." -Matthew 7-2

I served my wife yesterday......I served my kids yesterday...I served the homebound yesterday by taking them the Eucharist...

Hope I wasn't sinning...

asking someone who is very much alive (Luke 20:38) to pray for you is not worship. In the bible, and in the Catholic Church today, worship takes place when produce from the earth as a sacrifice is offered up to God the Father on an altar. Asking Mary to pray for us in no way says that she is the one mediator of the new Covenant (Hebrews 12)...

All of those rosaries prayed in Poland helped to bring down the Soviet Union, which was demonic...

Thaddeus73 said:

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We always ask Mary to pray for us sinners...Did you not know that?

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I am in no way trying to be antagonistic with what I'm about to ask. Forgive my ignorance on Catholic traditions.

How is this not a violation of talking with the dead?

"There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you."
Deuteronomy 18:10-12 ESV

Asking a very much alive Mary (Luke 20:38) for prayer is not divination. I'm not asking her to appear to me and give me arcane knowledge, like Saul did with the witch of Endor.

Jesus and Peter both talked to people who had died on earth, so it's very biblical.

The Rosary is nothing more than meditating on 20 events in the Bible. How can that be anti-biblical?

Like I said I'm ignorant on the Catholic tradition here. Your response seem to say you are praying to her. Which I think would fall under tryinf to commune with the dead? Maybe, maybe not.

I know the Luke verse would likely be used but Jesus isn't making the point you can commune with them because God is of the living.

In Sauls example he very much sins by talking to Samuel. But how is that possible if God is a God of the living? Well it's possible because that's not the point of Luke. Jesus was proving the resurrection not saying you can speak to those who have died and moved on.

Catholics believe that saints in heaven are very much alive. Therefore, there is no communing with the dead when asking for intercession.

Being dead in the body on earth in no way equates to being alive and well in heaven...

My push back would be Saul does violate this by talking to Samuel. Was Samuel not alive but Abraham Jacob and Issac are? When Jesus makes His like statement about God being a God of the living it's prior to His the death and resurrection.

He conversed with Moses and Elijah during the Transfiguration...And He didn't sin in doing so, so it's OK...

Read 1 Samuel 28. Saul follows the Torah and has all the mediums and necromancers put out of the land. He is afraid of the Philistines so he asks God, but doesn't get an answer (including by the soft-divination-like concession the Urim). Then goes and explicitly looks for a medium to divine from the dead to get an answer about whether or not he should fight the Philistines.

That's not what is happening when we ask the saints to pray for us.

Thaddeus73 said:

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He conversed with Moses and Elijah during the Transfiguration...And He didn't sin in doing so, so it's OK...

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Ya that one has always puzzled me. I thibk there's more going on there than what we are given and understand. Definitely a unique and interesting scene

Idk man. There seems to be a pretty grey area I would be cautious of. When asked how to pray Jesus speaks directly to God the Father. Not via someone else. It also seems to diminish our roles as priest being able to go directly to God and cry Abba.

Maybe I'm wrong but it seems less than ideal.

It's not gray at all. This is the same old argument, "if you can pray to the Father why pray to anyone else?" Why ask Jesus for prayers? Or for your friends? Or the Church?

We know from scripture the saints are offering prayers in heaven at the throne of God. We know that when we are worshipping, Christ is in our midst. Combining the two, when we are in prayer with Christ with us, the saints and angels are there too.

We also know from scripture that there are angels ceaselessly interceding for us. We also know that the destiny of humans is to become like the angels, which St John saw fulfilled in his vision. So again, scripturally we know they are praying for us, especially our patron saints (which is also a scriptural practice, 1 Cor 15:29).

It is not divination, I'm not asking my patron saint to tell me the future or give me some power or trying to control his spirit to do my bidding. That's what is forbidden, and it is quite clear.

As for our role as priests, I don't understand how that is relevant at all.