Inerrancy of the Bible

6,190 Views | 59 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by Zobel
Marsh
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Jabin said:

Quote:

the Bible is not inerrant because of factual inaccuracies that do not tie to multiple historical sources. Major things like did the exodus really happen?
The historicity of the Exodus is something I know quite a bit about. We cannot "prove" whether it happened or not since it did occur about 3500 years ago. However, while there is significant evidence for it, there is no evidence of which I am aware that it did not occur.


I'm curious, outside of the Bible, what "significant evidence for it" do you think exists for the exodus?

Archeologists find no evidence that a mass migration occurred. If the exodus occurred at the time the Bible implies, the isrealites would have left egpyt and landed in Canaan, which was also under Egyptian control.

In fact, the pharaoh that is typically most associated with the exodus is Ramses II; ramses II actually lead multiple excursions throughout the middle east to regain land or squash rebellions (for example, going through Palestine to get to Lebanon). The battle of kadesh is actually recorded through both an official record and a long poem on the subject carved on temple walls in Egypt and Nubia.

I'm not trying to lead the discussion off course and it is completely fine if you believe it to be true, exactly as the Bible states; personally, I believe a smaller version occurred and that the larger theme of the exodus still holds true, even if the smaller details don't add up. However, stating that "there is significant evidence" for the exodus seems a bit misleading.

Although it seems like the default for some of the posters on this board (and on this thread), I'm not trying to come across hostile.
Marsh
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Dad-O-Lot said:



To answer the original question, Yes, the Bible is "True", in that it is and reveals the truths of God's relationship with humanity. It is not, however, a science or history textbook.




This would be the definition of biblical infallibility, not biblical inerrancy.
KingofHazor
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Thanks for your approach, and I'll also do my best to write in a spirit of discussion, not argumentation.

There are several "evidences" (not "proof") of the Exodus:

1. The Bible itself. Even if one discounts its moral and spiritual claims, it is nevertheless an ancient historical document and should be given some weight.

2. Josephus writes of the Exodus, albeit 1500 years after it happened. Nevertheless, Josephus writes of something that was common knowledge in his time, and he was much closer to the event than we are.

3. Most conservative Christian scholars and archaeologists today do not believe that the Exodus occurred during the reign of Ramses II, but rather during the reign of Amenhotep II in 1446 BC.

4. There actually is evidence of a mass departure of Semitic peoples out of Egypt during the reign of Amenhotep II. Manfred Bietak, perhaps the greatest living archaeologist, has spent decades excavating Avaris, which was the capitol of the Hyksos and then the succeeding pharaohs after the Hyksos were defeated and driven out by Ahmose. Bietak has concluded that the population of Avaris was perhaps as high as a million people, who were almost entirely Semitic, not Egyptian. Other large cities in Egypt at that time also had a largely Semitic populations. Bietak has noted in numerous articles that Avaris was suddenly abandoned for some unknown reason during the reign of Amenhotep II.

5. You mention that the Egyptians controlled Canaan. That's not precisely correct. The Egyptians controlled the coastal areas of Canaan but ignored the hill country, the area where the Israelites were said to have settled after they crossed the Jordan. In addition, the Egyptian "control" of Canaan was in the form of puppet rulers, not a resident military force. Right around and following 1400 BC, those puppet rulers start writing the Pharaoh complaining of the marauding "Habiru" and asking for military help (those requests form part of the Amarna letters). The Pharaoh appears to have ignored their requests. So Egyptian control was apparently in name only.

Again, this is not proof but it certainly constitutes evidence. And it is surprisingly strong evidence given the passage of 3500 years and the almost complete destruction of Egyptian written records. And, as I said before, I am not aware of any evidence that the Exodus did not occur.

ETA: Here's a web page with another good summary of the evidence: Top Ten Discoveries Related to Moses and the Exodus Bible Archaeology Report
KingofHazor
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Marsh said:

Dad-O-Lot said:



To answer the original question, Yes, the Bible is "True", in that it is and reveals the truths of God's relationship with humanity. It is not, however, a science or history textbook.




This would be the definition of biblical infallibility, not biblical inerrancy.
Educate me. What's the difference between infallibility and inerrancy?

And to the poster to whom you replied, the Bible most certainly is a book of history even if it's not a textbook. Christianity and Judaism are clearly historical religions.

And to make my stab at answering your original question, you certainly can be a Christian without accepting Biblical infallibility or inerrancy. However, you'll end up missing most of the great stuff God has for you. It will be difficult to grow spiritually.
Marsh
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Jabin said:

Marsh said:

Dad-O-Lot said:



To answer the original question, Yes, the Bible is "True", in that it is and reveals the truths of God's relationship with humanity. It is not, however, a science or history textbook.




This would be the definition of biblical infallibility, not biblical inerrancy.
Educate me. What's the difference between infallibility and inerrancy?

And to the poster to whom you replied, the Bible most certainly is a book of history even if it's not a textbook. Christianity and Judaism are clearly historical religions.

And to make my stab at answering your original question, you certainly can be a Christian without accepting Biblical infallibility or inerrancy. However, you'll end up missing most of the great stuff God has for you. It will be difficult to grow spiritually.


Biblical inerrancy essentially means that the Bible is without error in all matters it addresses, including history and science. When the Bible tells history, it tells us what actually happened. It may report on what a person said when he told a lie to someone else, but it does not endorse the lie. It is merely giving an accurate report of what the liar said. Where it speaks to science, it does not contradict God's revelation in the natural world. In sum, the Bible is entirely truthful and has no errors at all

Biblical infallibility essentially means that the Bible cannot fail to communicate the truth we need about God in order to be saved and transformed. It is the belief that the Bible is completely trustworthy as a guide to salvation and the life of faith and will not fail to accomplish its purpose.

Generally speaking, inerrancy is the stricter and all-encompassing term (everything must be true in all things the Bible speaks about) whereas infallibility is a looser term (that what the Bible says regarding matters of faith and Christian practice is wholly useful and true).

Zobel
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The Bible doesn't speak to history or science at all, at least not in the modern sense.
KingofHazor
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Zobel said:

The Bible doesn't speak to history or science at all, at least not in the modern sense.
I don't understand what you mean by that. Can you elaborate?
Marsh
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Thanks for the write up. I would like to read some more into this before responding with thoughts/questions. Appreciate it
Zobel
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The way we conceive of both are different than the authors of the scriptures. The modern idea of history as a kind of science is recent - a few centuries at most. The Bible is not repeat not a history book in that sense, and it never was meant to be. Or a science textbook for that matter. The authors had no concept of either thing. So if you come to it expecting it to be that, you're going to have a bad time.
KingofHazor
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Correct, I guess, although I'm not really sure where you're going with that. The authors of the Bible clearly recounted historical events that they believed and asserted to be true. And some of the books of the Bible were explicitly written as histories, although not written in the style of modern histories.

And where did you get the idea that we view history as a kind of science? From Sapper? My dad was a history professor and would have laughed at the idea of history being anywhere close to a science. An undergraduate degree in history is a bachelor of arts, not a bachelor of science, after all.
Zobel
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History as narrative is very different than the modern discipline of history. The entire purpose and field of view is different. Modern history is a view from nowhere, recounting an unbiased and dispassionate set of facts, Things As They Happened. Ancient history was -not- this. That doesn't make it not true, or that things were not written down like they happened or were untrue. But it's nothing like what we produce as history. Completely different intent, purpose. They're not trying to tell you a set of facts that happened… they're telling you a story, from a point of view.
KingofHazor
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Quote:

Modern history is a view from nowhere, recounting an unbiased and dispassionate set of facts, Things As They Happened.
How I can tell you were not a history major without you saying you were not a history major.

Your statement is, at best, what history should be in an ideal world. But not even historians believe that about modern historiography. History majors are taught very early in their education to try to discern the biases of historians in order to gain a better understanding of what they are including and what they are excluding from their histories and why they are doing so. Every historian is biased and is trying to tell a story. Their bias and their view of the story that they are trying to tell determines which facts they include and which they exclude. No credible or honest historian would claim to be simply recounting a dispassionate set of facts or recounting things as they happened.
Zobel
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Right - but the ancients would not have agreed with your definition of history in an ideal world "should be". That was not their ideal. That's the point.

Here's a simple example. The genealogy of Jesus as presented by St Matthew is literally incorrect. He skips generations. Error? Historical inaccuracy? As a modern historian, would you correct it? Why or why not?
KingofHazor
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Lol, I don't think that was my definition of history but yours.

People generalize way too much about ancient historians and ancient historiography. There were some pretty decent ancient historians, even by modern standards, especially given what they had to work with in terms of hard information. Herodotus and Tacitus are two that come immediately to mind.

People also generalize way too much about the Bible, as someone did when they said that it wasn't intended to be a history book. Parts of it certainly weren't (e.g., the Poetry and Prophetic portions of the OT), but others clearly were intended to be histories. Luke's writings in the NT are explicitly histories. Genesis and much of Exodus also were written as histories as were also what we call the "history" books - I & II Kings, I & II Chronicles, Ezra and Nehemiah. Those histories appear to be highly accurate.

I agree that the genealogy in Matthew is one of the great mysteries of the Bible which I have to put on a shelf for now and hope that God will answer someday. The passage is unquestionably wrong in a literal sense. What's confusing, but perhaps puts some light on the passage, is that Matthew's readers also knew that it was literally wrong and that Matthew knew that they knew. Thus, Matthew could not have been writing to convey literal facts. Perhaps he was relying on some cultural convention of which we are now unaware. Much understanding gets lost in 2000 years, especially across cultures.

Further, Matthew may not have been writing as a historian but rather as an eyewitness. Before retiring, I was a trial lawyer doing corporate litigation. After some event that would likely result in litigation, my clients would hire me. One of the first things I'd do would be to interview eyewitnesses. The initial interviews were all over the place and sometimes seemingly contradictory. However, after revisiting with the witnesses, I frequently found out that they were not in fact contradictory. Sometimes eyewitnesses saw different portions of the same event. Sometimes they would simply use different ways of describing the same event. Also, most people are not very organized in their thinking or speech. They might jump around in their description, not to be inaccurate, but to describe what they considered to be most important first, or what had affected them the most.

I don't understand the Matthew passage, but I also am unwilling for it to be the tail that wags the dog. So much of the Bible is such highly credible history that I am very comfortable living with a passage or two that I don't understand.

But I adamantly reject the sweeping claims that no part of the Bible was written as history and that no part is trustworthy history.

To get back to the OP's original question, I've never heard the distinction he makes between infallibility and inerrancy. Regardless, the core question is whether is whether God's word is trustworthy, including in the details. I think it is. Most of the dispute arises from science and/or archaeology. Those change constantly and seem to be slender reeds on which to build a platform to dispute the Bible's trustworthiness. Second, judging the Bible's trustworthiness puts us on a platform superior to the Bible itself. And once you start rejecting major portions of the scripture, where do you stop? If science is the arbiter of truth, then in what way is God coming as man and rising from the dead scientific? Finally, a rejection of Biblical trustworthiness is really a rejection of God's trustworthiness. How and why would God, who has infinite power, allow lies and misstatements to be written into his Holy Word?
Zobel
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You said "Your statement (Modern history is a view from nowhere, recounting an unbiased and dispassionate set of facts) is, at best, what history should be in an ideal world." When you say that Herodotus and Tacitus were "pretty decent historians" you're judging them against a modern criteria that they were simply not trying to achieve. That isn't what history was for them. History in the ancient sense has the purpose of providing identity to people. In that regard, in the ancient sense, the OT in general and the Torah in particular is correctly aligned. But there's no effort to necessarily report Joe Friday's just the facts, or balance, or even maybe what we would call "true" by modern historical inquiry. Herodotus certainly makes no attempt to do so. The Aenid falls into this category of history.

Tacitus primary aim - as he himself says - is to record and witness to the character of the men about whom he wrote. In this regard he is very similar to Plutarch. And, accordingly, his work is sometimes influenced by, and sometimes opposed to Roman Imperial Propaganda. It's something of a cross of modern biography and a sermon or self-help book.

And in all cases, they are wound up with their contemporary views of philosophy, governance, and what we would call religion. Who should rule, and why, and what is justice, and what is the good life, and who are the people that accept this or that or the other.

So again, when you say the Torah is history I say yes - but it is ancient history, not modern. The purpose is not to recount the facts of a period of time, but to establish a narrative about a particular group of people: how they came to be, what identifies them as a people, their central identity and worldview, and what their purpose and role is in the world. Even the more "historical" points of the OT like Kings or Chronicles are the same. King Omri is a great example. He was one of, if not the most, geopolitically and regionally important king of the Northern Kingdom. He consolidated power, ended civil war, expanded territory, brought huge economic growth, and established a small dynasty. Outsiders referred to the Northern Kingdom not as Israel but as Bet Omri, the House of Omri. If 1 Kings were a history book by the modern sense of the word, he should have a lot of space. We get instead 6 verses that say nothing about any of that, only that he won the civil war, became king, bought a hill and built a city on it. The author of Kings is much more interested in telling us the story, the narrative arc, of the descent of Israel away from following Yahweh, and so the takeaway about Omri is he did more evil than all who were before him.

The modern history is even mentioned - "Now the rest of the acts of Omri that he did, and the might that he showed, are they not written in the Book of the Chronicles of the Kings of Israel?" The author of Kings is not interested in this information, because Kings is not a modern history book.

You're making a tact assumption that accuracy is how you should measure, and you seem to think that when I say - this isn't intended to be history - that is me saying - it is not accurate. I can tell a story six different ways with varying focuses, and give you six completely different views of the events in that story. Depending on how you judge accuracy and completeness, some of those may be "history" and others not - but that's the wrong thing. Again, if you go to the scriptures looking for a modern history, you're going to have a bad time. They can witness to modern historical efforts; they can be sources for modern history, but they themselves are not, and are not trying to be, historical works in the modern sense.

That's why you look at St Matthew's genealogy and are confused. If he is writing history, it's simply incorrect. When you say "he was not writing as a historian" you are exactly right, but you are putting the silent modifier of modern historian in there. He wrote a history as much as the Torah is history. St Luke as well. They both wrote histories, both with the same purpose behind them. But neither were modern histories, and to approach them in this way abuses the texts and causes confusion and disappointment.

So again. None of the bible was written as (modern) history. That says nothing whatever about its credibility or trustworthiness. And you can go down the same rabbit hole about science - none of the authors were attempting to explain natural phenomena in a systematic way, were even interested in doing so, or were likely even able to conceive of such a thing.
Zobel
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To put a finer point on it, the difference between modern history and ancient is one of focus. Modern history concerns itself with facts, with what happened. Ancient history concerns itself with meaning - often at multiple levels (personal, tribal or national, and cosmic). Those intersect but they don't have an identity relationship at all.
KingofHazor
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I've read your long post, but it is difficult for me to determine what your point is. However, it appears that you give way too much credit to modern history. It is not that much different from ancient history. For example, the book American Caesar is a book about a man and his character. The author selects facts that support his thesis and ignores or minimizes facts that detract from his thesis. The current fad in history today appears to denigrate everything associated with Western civilization and United States. Is that accurate history? Does it recount all of the facts?

The bottom line is not whether ancient historians wrote in a manner similar to modern historians or not. The bottom line is whether the histories in the Bible are reliable and trustworthy. For my readings and research, it appears that they are.
Zobel
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The point is the criteria you use to judge. It seems like you would say American Caesar is a poor work of history. I think the rubber meets the road precisely in the OPs definition of inerrant vs infallible, and it plays out in examples like how you deal with St Matthew's genealogy. You have to either exclude it as history or make some special pleading about the type of history it is. If you change your mindset about history, there's no problem to grapple with at all.
KingofHazor
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Quote:

The point is the criteria you use to judge. It seems like you would say American Caesar is a poor work of history. I think the rubber meets the road precisely in the OPs definition of inerrant vs infallible, and it plays out in examples like how you deal with St Matthew's genealogy. You have to either exclude it as history or make some special pleading about the type of history it is. If you change your mindset about history, there's no problem to grapple with at all.
You fail to understand me. I do not believe that American Caesar was a poor work of history. To the contrary, it was outstanding. I used it to illustrate your deep misunderstanding of modern history.

You seem to want to recategorize Biblical history for some reason, a reason I am completely unsure of.

Let's quit talking in theory and get down to brass tacks. Can you think of any historical accounts from the OT that you are 100% sure are incorrect? Is there any part of the Exodus or Conquest accounts that you are 100% sure are incorrect? If so, what is the basis for your confidence on each? Do you think that the OT histories are factually reliable as the Word of God?
Zobel
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Why limit it to the OT? We already have a brass tack. Matthews genealogy was factually incorrect. Your solution seems to be to divide the scriptures into "history" and "not history". That seems suspicious.
KingofHazor
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Why is that suspicious? You make me laugh. Every Biblical scholar I know of makes that distinction.

I have a book written by the early settlers of Albany, Texas. Each chapter was written by a different settler. Some were written in a historical tone, some were not. Do you find that suspicious?

Now you seem to be arguing just to argue and you are evading my points.

No sense continuing this discussion since you have moved it far away from a discussion.
Zobel
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It's suspicious because its special pleading and seems arbitrary. What is the difference between a historical book and a non-historical book when it comes to the subject matter in the OP? Who decides whether a book is historical or not, and how?

This approach results in you saying the Gospel according to St Matthew is non-historical eyewitness, but the Gospel according to St Luke is historical. Never mind that St Luke wrote a single work in two parts, and Acts is definitely his eyewitness testimony - I don't know where that leaves us. Perhaps Acts is the same type of book as Matthew, so it's allowed to have overt errors? And then we must divine the intent behind St Matthew's writings and St Luke's -- one set out to write a history and the other, presumably, didn't -- or one did a good job at it and the other didn't -- or we have to say that they had different aims or purposes in their writings. Which also seems suspicious and much more fraught with trouble and errors than my approach.

In your Albany book example - what is a historical tone? Are the chapters not written in a historical tone less reliable or trustworthy?

I'm not arguing to argue. This is a critical point, and is the root of the matter of the OP's concerns. You handwaved away the essence of his question, which is this same point in other terms.

Again - why do you get to just ignore the fact that, on the surface, St Matthew's genealogy is factually incorrect? This is the OP's issue in a nutshell.
AG @ HEART
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This gets back to what Satan was asking and trying to convince Eve of. " Did God really say that?"
Marsh
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On one hand, I can see his argument that, because of the 30+ authors who comprised the Bible, some books may be more historical and factual in nature and others may be more spiritual and metaphorical in nature, all depending on what the author meant.

To your point, who are we to decide the authors intent? Still, I don't see how the Bible can ever be thought of as inerrant (I don't think yo disagree with me on this point). Regardless of whether the author made a mistake or not, there is only one "truth" for some things; utilizing your example, the genealogy of Jesus in Matthew is factually incorrect and does not tie to the genealogy as Luke describes it. By definition, if you believe that there is an error (in either Luke or Matthew), you cannot believe the Bible to be inerrant.

And this is one example of many.

To my greater point, I just don't understand why the "inerrancy" of the Bible is so important to some denominations/churches/Christians? I get that it is a slippery slope in regards to what is "true" in the Bible and who decides what is "true"... But fighting the battle that the Bible is inherently inerrant seems like a silly thing to continue doing.
Zobel
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I think you seeing a problem with the approach to the scriptures. But that is not a problem with the scriptures. It's a bit like finding fault with a Phillips screwdriver trying to turn a flat head screw. Wrong tool for the job.

There is no error in St Luke or St Matthew's genealogies. They're trying to communicate different things. Just because that doesn't comport with a centuries-later question we come to it with doesn't make it an error.
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