Seems like a bit of a copout. You wrote "I did not choose to be born. But I was, and as a result, I am subject to immovable, indisputable, and absolute rules whether I like them or not...We are created, against our wills and it is commanded we act in a certain manner or be punished." This is just as applicable to your parents as to God.Quote:
No. My parents did not lay down immovable, indisputable, and absolute rules that I would be forced to conform to for eternity. That would be strange.
The word "punished" and "punishment" is my objection. It's not a scriptural or historical teaching. I can't vouch for who believes what, but I can tell you its not correct. And I don't think it's what the majority believe, but even so, that's just appeal to crowds and doesn't make it right. If nothing else Christianity is an appeal to an external criterion. Majority opinion doesn't matter. Believing in "hell' and believing in punishment aren't the same things.Quote:
I'm not sure what your specific objection is to 'act in a certain manner or be punished' is. I am in no position to declare what is the correct or incorrect understanding of the scriptures. Have there not been / Are there not currently billions of Christians that believe in some form of punishment after death for 'sinners'? Even if it is a 'new' concept within Christianity, it is still what the majority of Christians believe in today. Your post above was a reply to me replying to 'The Banned' who clearly does believe in Hell. If he's wrong, feel free to take him up on that point.
I don't think one end of that spectrum is is remotely interesting as it has never applied to anyone ever and never will.Quote:
I don't take any exception to your point. But, I think its worth noting there could be a "spectrum of free will" where freedom to act in all ways at all times is at one end of the spectrum and a version of free will where someone one has extremely few freedoms of action at their disposal is at the other end.
No, but regardless of your conscience if you do certain things, certain other things happen. Why do you think the scriptures are doing anything different? You say indiscriminate - I say the same about God. He chose to save everyone, to love everyone, unilaterally.Quote:
When I jump off a high building, does gravity make a conscience judgement on my specific action to send me hurtling toward the ground? Gravity is indiscriminate.
You don't understand? The scriptures are clear. It's not what you believe, or what you tweet about, or having the right opinion or correct understanding of theology. It's how you love others who are made in the similitude of God, who are image bearers of God, and what you do to an image is conveyed to the prototype. Just like if someone were to deface a photo of a loved one, or trample on the flag, we understand that meaning. Humans are the image of God, and how we treat them is how we love God. So He says - "I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me....Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me."Quote:
I don't have any general objection to the prospect of consequences for my actions. But, when it comes to Heaven and Hell, I don't understand the consequences and what actions lead to those consequences. Can tell me exactly what actions will lead me to Heaven and what actions will lead me to Hell? Then, can you explain to me what Heaven will be like and what Hell will be like? I can ask that question to a lot of Christians and get a lot of answers. I can ask that question to a lot of humans and get even more answers.
You want to go to heaven? Love God, Love others, as He said - "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."
As to what heaven and hell are like, I don't think it's fathomable in any real way. How can you begin to imagine living in a mode of existence that is different than what you currently experience? People can speculate. But we are given images - the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" are images of madness, inhumanity, of reversion to animal existence, darkness. Red devils with horns, pointy tails, and pitchforks are products of very, very late cultural accretion.
I'm really not worried about that at all.Quote:
Imagine you die and meet the Aztec sun god at the gates of Heaven. How would you react if the sun god told you that you would be judged on some vastly different criteria than you expect?
Why? Do you object to gravity hurting people who don't understand and fall anyway?Quote:
What I object to is a God that would apply consequences for actions performed without knowledge or understanding of what those consequences would be. I actually think you agree with this objection.
There's a fundamental tension: humans are free; God is Love. I think they're actually two sides of the same thing, humans are free because God is Love. But they're in tension because humans can choose - at least temporarily - to act against their nature. When they do - if humans are truly free - God cannot deny Himself, and separation from God is death. Spiritual death is separation from God, and physical death follows after, surely as gravity.
You know I think you have, little by little. Have you loved, shown kindness or mercy, acted justly, been generous, self sacrificing? These are all things that image God, and in being His image bearers we become like Him. This is taught in the scriptures, too "put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator" and "be imitators of God, as beloved children, and walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God" and another place says we are for "the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ...we are to grow up in every way into Him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love." And the promise is "Those God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers."Quote:
What is it like to become God? I don't think I've ever become God before.