Pope decries Church conservatives encased in "suit of armour"

4,458 Views | 70 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by jkag89
Womackster
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Reuters

Umm... what?

I know a guy who disagrees a little:

Quote:

Put you on the armour of God, that you may be able to stand against the deceits of the devil. For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and powers, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places. Therefore take unto you the armour of God, that you may be able to resist in the evil day, and to stand in all things perfect. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of justice, And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace:
In all things taking the shield of faith, wherewith you may be able to extinguish all the fiery darts of the most wicked one. And take unto you the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit (which is the word of God).
Martin Q. Blank
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Yes, it is well known that one of the schemes of the devil is to ensure that Christians actually understand what is being said in church.
Zobel
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This is a pretty bad comparison.
PacifistAg
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Howdy Dammit
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Love the TLM. Disagree with Pope Francis vehemently on this one. Add it to the list
ramblin_ag02
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Add the Pope arguing against tradition to the weird features that distinguish this crazy timeline
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lobopride
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"Is the Pope Catholic?" used to be a rhetorical question. Now it takes some time to answer.
jkag89
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There is a difference in Tradition (Sacred) and tradition (Ecclesial). While I disagree with Frankie on this the Tridentine Mass is small t.
ramblin_ag02
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jkag89 said:

There is a difference in Tradition (Sacred) and tradition (Ecclesial). While I disagree with Frankie on this the Tridentine Mass is small t.
Me as a Protestant trying to figure out the difference between tradition and Tradition (also papal decrees, encyclicals, bulls, and ex cathedra)

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jkag89
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nortex97
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LOL @ 'liturgy wars' over Latin masses. You RCC brothers crack me up sometimes.
Win At Life
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nortex97 said:

LOL @ 'liturgy wars' over Latin masses. You RCC brothers crack me up sometimes.


Mass should be done in the same Latin Jesus spoke in Sunday church.

Side note: speaking Hebrew from the Torah in a synagogue on Sabbath is anathema!
PabloSerna
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The Pope is right to recognize that many of our brothers and sisters are more concerned about the form of the liturgy than the mission at hand. That's being a shepherd - he's doing his job.

+++

On a similar note, this is a political chord that has connected with some people who favor a trek back to the good old days. I can think of a recent politician whose political slogan hit the mark.
PabloSerna
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lobopride said:

"Is the Pope Catholic?" used to be a rhetorical question. Now it takes some time to answer.
I think what is happening, has been happening for some time in the Church. Vatican II was a turning point, not away from the teachings of Jesus, but away from the trappings of "smells and bells" that can stunt spiritual growth. Many good people are too focused on the "form" of the liturgy and are neglecting their baptismal mission to preach the good news to the world.

05AG
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PabloSerna said:

lobopride said:

"Is the Pope Catholic?" used to be a rhetorical question. Now it takes some time to answer.
I think what is happening, has been happening for some time in the Church. Vatican II was a turning point, not away from the teachings of Jesus, but away from the trappings of "smells and bells" that can stunt spiritual growth. Many good people are too focused on the "form" of the liturgy and are neglecting their baptismal mission to preach the good news to the world.




This response is seriously out of touch with reality. The disagreement is far beyond smells and bells. You talk about spiritual growth, the LM communities by far live and believe more of the tenets of faith, especially the moral teachings, than the general NO Catholics. I say NO as a distinction and lack of better terms, not derogatory.

I can easily argue that traditional Catholics are more faithful to what Vatican II actually taught than what the mainstream churches do and teach. As far as evangelizing, the NO Catholics and leaders are constantly preaching against evangelizing with a "hell is empty" mindset while RCIA classes are constantly telling people it doesn't matter where you go to church or even if you are Christian. Everyone is a-ok. I've literally experienced this.

Have you actually ever read the Vatican II documents? Read them. Not a summary or cliff notes. I'd also suggest "Reformer of the Liturgy by Yves Chiron" and "Reclaiming Vatican II: What it Really Said….. by Fr Blake Britton" in addition to actually reading the documents. I bring this up because you can't seriously think the TLM is the problem and TC was necessary. It's hypocritical and especially the guidelines form AB Roche. It's down right unjustified bullying because the danger to the faith isn't a small 1-2% of Catholics, it's everyday Catholics who pick and choose which teachings to follow and believe. St Sabina in Chicago is a more threat to the faithful than anything traditionalist (non-sedes) have ever done.

I don't think history will look favorably on this from Pope Francis because he's being two faced but also especially because there is credible evidence of dishonestly in the results of the survey.
File5
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PabloSerna said:

lobopride said:

"Is the Pope Catholic?" used to be a rhetorical question. Now it takes some time to answer.
I think what is happening, has been happening for some time in the Church. Vatican II was a turning point, not away from the teachings of Jesus, but away from the trappings of "smells and bells" that can stunt spiritual growth. Many good people are too focused on the "form" of the liturgy and are neglecting their baptismal mission to preach the good news to the world.




In the almost 60 years since Vatican II you think Catholics in general are LESS stunted spiritually? To the previous poster's point, I am going to read the documents themselves because I recognize that the feeling of change that Vatican II inspired has been used often to justify much more than what was explicitly called for. Since you brought politics into this and the timelines match up, how would you define a woman? At the time of Vatican II it wasn't even a question, and yet now you're labeled transphobic and not "inclusive" by many if you think a man can't carry and deliver a baby.

ETA didn't mean to put in smiley emoji
747Ag
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nortex97 said:

LOL @ 'liturgy wars' over Latin masses. You RCC brothers crack me up sometimes.
Bro, we Latins just want an apostolic liturgy. We have one, but they wanna take it away.
PabloSerna
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747Ag said:

nortex97 said:

LOL @ 'liturgy wars' over Latin masses. You RCC brothers crack me up sometimes.
Bro, we Latins just want an apostolic liturgy. We have one, but they wanna take it away.
This is exhibit A for the case of well meaning, good people, stuck on "smells and bells".

PabloSerna
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05AG said:

PabloSerna said:

lobopride said:

"Is the Pope Catholic?" used to be a rhetorical question. Now it takes some time to answer.
I think what is happening, has been happening for some time in the Church. Vatican II was a turning point, not away from the teachings of Jesus, but away from the trappings of "smells and bells" that can stunt spiritual growth. Many good people are too focused on the "form" of the liturgy and are neglecting their baptismal mission to preach the good news to the world.




This response is seriously out of touch with reality. The disagreement is far beyond smells and bells. You talk about spiritual growth, the LM communities by far live and believe more of the tenets of faith, especially the moral teachings, than the general NO Catholics. I say NO as a distinction and lack of better terms, not derogatory.

I can easily argue that traditional Catholics are more faithful to what Vatican II actually taught than what the mainstream churches do and teach. As far as evangelizing, the NO Catholics and leaders are constantly preaching against evangelizing with a "hell is empty" mindset while RCIA classes are constantly telling people it doesn't matter where you go to church or even if you are Christian. Everyone is a-ok. I've literally experienced this.

Have you actually ever read the Vatican II documents? Read them. Not a summary or cliff notes. I'd also suggest "Reformer of the Liturgy by Yves Chiron" and "Reclaiming Vatican II: What it Really Said….. by Fr Blake Britton" in addition to actually reading the documents. I bring this up because you can't seriously think the TLM is the problem and TC was necessary. It's hypocritical and especially the guidelines form AB Roche. It's down right unjustified bullying because the danger to the faith isn't a small 1-2% of Catholics, it's everyday Catholics who pick and choose which teachings to follow and believe. St Sabina in Chicago is a more threat to the faithful than anything traditionalist (non-sedes) have ever done.

I don't think history will look favorably on this from Pope Francis because he's being two faced but also especially because there is credible evidence of dishonestly in the results of the survey.
Generalize much? Dead give away.

Edit to add: when you are ready for a serious conversation, let's not do this. Also - yes, we (Lay Dominicans) study Vatican II documents. It is why I am in agreement with the Pope on this front.
RebelE Infantry
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PabloSerna said:

747Ag said:

nortex97 said:

LOL @ 'liturgy wars' over Latin masses. You RCC brothers crack me up sometimes.
Bro, we Latins just want an apostolic liturgy. We have one, but they wanna take it away.
This is exhibit A for the case of well meaning, good people, stuck on "smells and bells".




I think you fundamentally misunderstand the theology and symbolism that is pervasive in the ancient Roman Rite and is severely lacking in the NO.
The flames of the Imperium burn brightly in the hearts of men repulsed by degenerate modernity. Souls aflame with love of goodness, truth, beauty, justice, and order.
PabloSerna
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RebelE Infantry said:

PabloSerna said:

747Ag said:

nortex97 said:

LOL @ 'liturgy wars' over Latin masses. You RCC brothers crack me up sometimes.
Bro, we Latins just want an apostolic liturgy. We have one, but they wanna take it away.
This is exhibit A for the case of well meaning, good people, stuck on "smells and bells".




I think you fundamentally misunderstand the theology and symbolism that is pervasive in the ancient Roman Rite and is severely lacking in the NO.
I have seen both first hand and disagree,
RebelE Infantry
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PabloSerna said:

RebelE Infantry said:

PabloSerna said:

747Ag said:

nortex97 said:

LOL @ 'liturgy wars' over Latin masses. You RCC brothers crack me up sometimes.
Bro, we Latins just want an apostolic liturgy. We have one, but they wanna take it away.
This is exhibit A for the case of well meaning, good people, stuck on "smells and bells".




I think you fundamentally misunderstand the theology and symbolism that is pervasive in the ancient Roman Rite and is severely lacking in the NO.
I have seen both first hand and disagree,


If you think that this is all about "smells and bells," then you fundamentally misunderstand the issue. Disagree all you want.
The flames of the Imperium burn brightly in the hearts of men repulsed by degenerate modernity. Souls aflame with love of goodness, truth, beauty, justice, and order.
PabloSerna
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RebelE Infantry said:

PabloSerna said:

RebelE Infantry said:

PabloSerna said:

747Ag said:

nortex97 said:

LOL @ 'liturgy wars' over Latin masses. You RCC brothers crack me up sometimes.
Bro, we Latins just want an apostolic liturgy. We have one, but they wanna take it away.
This is exhibit A for the case of well meaning, good people, stuck on "smells and bells".




I think you fundamentally misunderstand the theology and symbolism that is pervasive in the ancient Roman Rite and is severely lacking in the NO.
I have seen both first hand and disagree,


If you think that this is all about "smells and bells," then you fundamentally misunderstand the issue. Disagree all you want.
Well I said other things, but you be you.

+++

Faith was not "a suit of armour that encases us; instead, it is a fascinating journey, a constant and restless movement, ever in search of God," Francis said.

This is a starting point. Francis is spot on and as evident, several on here have taken a defensive position - about many things. He has seen it and he is not alone.
RebelE Infantry
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PabloSerna said:

RebelE Infantry said:

PabloSerna said:

RebelE Infantry said:

PabloSerna said:

747Ag said:

nortex97 said:

LOL @ 'liturgy wars' over Latin masses. You RCC brothers crack me up sometimes.
Bro, we Latins just want an apostolic liturgy. We have one, but they wanna take it away.
This is exhibit A for the case of well meaning, good people, stuck on "smells and bells".




I think you fundamentally misunderstand the theology and symbolism that is pervasive in the ancient Roman Rite and is severely lacking in the NO.
I have seen both first hand and disagree,


If you think that this is all about "smells and bells," then you fundamentally misunderstand the issue. Disagree all you want.
Well I said other things, but you be you.

+++

Faith was not "a suit of armour that encases us; instead, it is a fascinating journey, a constant and restless movement, ever in search of God," Francis said.

This is a starting point. Francis is spot on and as evident, several on here have taken a defensive position - about many things. He has seen it and he is not alone.


Weird that some would get defensive about the Faith of our fathers and the Mass of Ages being suppressed. How dare we.
The flames of the Imperium burn brightly in the hearts of men repulsed by degenerate modernity. Souls aflame with love of goodness, truth, beauty, justice, and order.
747Ag
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PabloSerna said:

747Ag said:

nortex97 said:

LOL @ 'liturgy wars' over Latin masses. You RCC brothers crack me up sometimes.
Bro, we Latins just want an apostolic liturgy. We have one, but they wanna take it away.
This is exhibit A for the case of well meaning, good people, stuck on "smells and bells".
I like this guy! He is a funny guy! [/El Guapo]
nortex97
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Another great euphemism; 'smells and bells.'

Not my circus/monkeys (and not mocking anyone/don't have a position), but I appreciate this thread. LOL.
jrico2727
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PabloSerna said:

747Ag said:

nortex97 said:

LOL @ 'liturgy wars' over Latin masses. You RCC brothers crack me up sometimes.
Bro, we Latins just want an apostolic liturgy. We have one, but they wanna take it away.
This is exhibit A for the case of well meaning, good people, stuck on "smells and bells".




Your so condescending. He is stuck in reverence. The Mass is not about YOU. You can play guitars, talk about feelings and watch interpretive dance on your own time.

You always bring up your Dominican spiritually. Do you think that St. Dominic would recognize the Mass you went to this weekend as the Mass he offered?
PabloSerna
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I bring up my spiritual development with the Dominicans not to brag, but to make a point that I am not acting or saying anything on my own. As you already know, Catholics are not free to interpret scripture, much less, doctrine on their own. We follow the magisterium.

Here is a link to the 1963 Constitution of the Sacred Liturgy. It's not a long document, worth the read to get a better understanding that part of Vatican II was to change from the Latin to the vernacular "Because of the use of the mother tongue in the administration of the sacraments and sacramentals can often be of considerable help to the people, this use is to be extended..."

What is happening in the RCC world, is what is happening on this very thread - we are dividing ourselves into groups and being derailed from the mission at hand.

05AG
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Survey after survey, data point after data point, prove my claim. It's ironic you say "generalize much" when your whole support of PF and Traditiones Custodes is nothing but a big generalization of people (mis-generalization at that!) with no data or proof to support its claims.

Ready for a serious discussion? Are you serious with that? I'm ready but you don't like what I said so you brush it off as not serious. Nice.
PabloSerna
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Cite your survey and data points if you want.

My issue with your point is that I know of many communidads de base that function entirely in espanol have enriched the lives of countless Spanish speaking Catholics. It wasn't the TLM that touched them - it was mass in the vernacular and the grace of God that did this.

I don't know the exact number, but there are billions of Catholics around the world. A fraction attend the TLM maybe? You are telling me that the rest are ignorant of their calling?

05AG
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PabloSerna said:

I bring up my spiritual development with the Dominicans not to brag, but to make a point that I am not acting or saying anything on my own. As you already know, Catholics are not free to interpret scripture, much less, doctrine on their own. We follow the magisterium.

Here is a link to the 1963 Constitution of the Sacred Liturgy. It's not a long document, worth the read to get a better understanding that part of Vatican II was to change from the Latin to the vernacular "Because of the use of the mother tongue in the administration of the sacraments and sacramentals can often be of considerable help to the people, this use is to be extended..."

What is happening in the RCC world, is what is happening on this very thread - we are dividing ourselves into groups and being derailed from the mission at hand.




Keep reading. It never calls for a full departure from Latin notrdoes it ever call for the whole mass to be in the vernacular. It calls for the vernacular in limited situations with proper approvals.

From Sacrosanctum Concilium

Paragraph 36- 36. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.

Paragraph 54- In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to the readings and "the common prayer," but also, as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to the norm laid down in Art. 36 of this Constitution.

Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.

And wherever a more extended use of the mother tongue within the Mass appears desirable, the regulation laid down in Art. 40 of this Constitution is to be observed.

Paragraph 101- In accordance with the centuries-old tradition of the Latin rite, the Latin language is to be retained by clerics in the divine office. But in individual cases the ordinary has the power of granting the use of a vernacular translation to those clerics for whom the use of Latin constitutes a grave obstacle to their praying the office properly. The vernacular version, however, must be one that is drawn up according to the provision of Art. 36.
747Ag
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PabloSerna said:

I bring up my spiritual development with the Dominicans not to brag, but to make a point that I am not acting or saying anything on my own. As you already know, Catholics are not free to interpret scripture, much less, doctrine on their own. We follow the magisterium.

Here is a link to the 1963 Constitution of the Sacred Liturgy. It's not a long document, worth the read to get a better understanding that part of Vatican II was to change from the Latin to the vernacular "Because of the use of the mother tongue in the administration of the sacraments and sacramentals can often be of considerable help to the people, this use is to be extended..."

What is happening in the RCC world, is what is happening on this very thread - we are dividing ourselves into groups and being derailed from the mission at hand.
While most Catholics that attend Latin Masses prefer the use of Latin, the particular language isn't the crux of the issue as to why they attend. And merely translating the new Mass into Latin is not something that will satisfy traditional Catholics. It's the structures of both liturgies. It's what exists in one and not in the other. It's a matter of what ars celebrandi of each liturgy emphasizes. This is just scratching the surface of the theology that was mentioned earlier in the thread.

And anecdotes of various parishes I've attended over the years... in the average parish that celebrates the new Mass, several have had English and Spanish Masses. Not much intermingling between the two communities. However, my current parish offers the TLM semimonthly... most of the faithful that attend this Mass are found at one the ordinary form Masses on the other weekends. There is collaboration between the choirs (that aren't of the praise & worship contemporary style). The Latin Mass ministry volunteers to serve coffee and donuts after the 9am Mass. Kids are intermingled in the youth ministry. In other words, I see less division in my parish that celebrates both forms of the Roman Rite than in multi-lingual parishes (albeit not a division of malice, but a division nonetheless).
05AG
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PabloSerna said:

Cite your survey and data points if you want.

My issue with your point is that I know of many communidads de base that function entirely in espanol have enriched the lives of countless Spanish speaking Catholics. It wasn't the TLM that touched them - it was mass in the vernacular and the grace of God that did this.

I don't know the exact number, but there are billions of Catholics around the world. A fraction attend the TLM maybe? You are telling me that the rest are ignorant of their calling?




And I know many Catholics (and too many to count throughout history) who have been converted by the TLM. The difference between us is that you support shutting one down. I never said the NO should be shut down, even though I believe it has theological and liturgical failings.

That's great about your friends and in the end God's grace is always needed. You know something else I like about the TLM?? It unites Catholics in the Holy Sacrifice of Mass, whereas the mass on the vernacular separates them.

Never said that, all six of my kids godparents are NO Catholics. I believe there are good faithful NO Catholics.
05AG
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747Ag said:

PabloSerna said:

I bring up my spiritual development with the Dominicans not to brag, but to make a point that I am not acting or saying anything on my own. As you already know, Catholics are not free to interpret scripture, much less, doctrine on their own. We follow the magisterium.

Here is a link to the 1963 Constitution of the Sacred Liturgy. It's not a long document, worth the read to get a better understanding that part of Vatican II was to change from the Latin to the vernacular "Because of the use of the mother tongue in the administration of the sacraments and sacramentals can often be of considerable help to the people, this use is to be extended..."

What is happening in the RCC world, is what is happening on this very thread - we are dividing ourselves into groups and being derailed from the mission at hand.
While most Catholics that attend Latin Masses prefer the use of Latin, the particular language isn't the crux of the issue as to why they attend. And merely translating the new Mass into Latin is not something that will satisfy traditional Catholics. It's the structures of both liturgies. It's what exists in one and not in the other. It's a matter of what ars celebrandi of each liturgy emphasizes. This is just scratching the surface of the theology that was mentioned earlier in the thread.

And anecdotes of various parishes I've attended over the years... in the average parish that celebrates the new Mass, several have had English and Spanish Masses. Not much intermingling between the two communities. However, my current parish offers the TLM semimonthly... most of the faithful that attend this Mass are found at one the ordinary form Masses on the other weekends. There is collaboration between the choirs (that aren't of the praise & worship contemporary style). The Latin Mass ministry volunteers to serve coffee and donuts after the 9am Mass. Kids are intermingled in the youth ministry. In other words, I see less division in my parish that celebrates both forms of the Roman Rite than in multi-lingual parishes (albeit not a division of malice, but a division nonetheless).


Very well said. The difference and disagreement is more than language.
PabloSerna
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I don't see us agreeing on any aspect of what each is saying. What is clear is that the Pope has found a problem and you and I are confirming it for all to see. Here is link to his Apostolic Letter for a better explanation.

Time will tell. I wish you well.

ETA: me.
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