The Answer to "My Body, My Choice"

2,044 Views | 18 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by Star Wars Memes Only
OLD MAN, INTERRUPTED
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Gentlemen, who have so honestly discharged their minds on these matters of most great concern;

Welcome!

I can't persuade you. These are beyond my powers. I can only return your beliefs in light of social science.

The idea that consent justifies sex will be proven wrong.

The false morality of the atheists that peddle consent as the standard of moral soundness are unsurprisingly justifying the sexual exploitation of children.

They justify consensual adult sexual encounters but also child to child including sibling to sibling sex by way of this false morality.

But it gets better. They justify adult to child sexual exploitation by abuse of power as they justify the perversion of the family unit. Not surprisingly, they believe parents have the right to force sex on kids for their own purposes.

In families, fathers and mothers protect children. If they will not but violate this responsibility then the children should be removed and the parents imprisoned for statutory rape or for consenting to the sexual exploitation of their kids. This is child abuse.

Any temporal authority with an once of credibility, would hang the highest punishment upon the head of the guilty person who sexually exploited a child, whether family or stranger whether done by physical contact or for pornographic purposes.

These next points will demonstrate the common problems found in justifying all adult consensual sex in a promiscuous society like ours.

PSYCHOLOGICAL HARM;

Men and women make, seek, or look for unspoken commitments to one another in sex if they still have an ounce of self worth or soundness of mind remaining in them; that which has not been already driven out by trudging in various former lusts or that has not compromised there psychological availability for a long-term relationship.

Never lie to yourself and believe that psychologically healthy people regularly come out of CONSENSUAL SEX with no negative thought or consequence regarding the other person, the experience itself or its effect on their life. More surely would a unhealthy person be harmed without much willingness or ability for the other sexual acquaintance to do anything about it. Ever seen crazy, psycho stuff in and after sex from apparent normal persons? Consider this as a common cause.

MORAL HARM;

What are vows if they are made by swine that go right back to rollicking in the mud after putting on a tuxedo and gown? The breaking of marital vows by CONSENSUAL SEX with another person is explicitly the beaking of a commitment, of trust, is harmful and unlawful.

HARM TO LIFE;

Each reproductive decision from copulation to birth is made with the potential for wrongdoing. Women birth and abort the babies of fathers made by CONSENSUAL SEX. The persons performing the acts of reproductive potential carry the responsibility of a resultant life even if that life was an unintended consequence of consensual sex. Make no mistake, an aborted baby is a failure of one or both of the parents along with the state for sanctioning the termination of a human lifeform which is wrong unless the mother's life is threatened, which is extremely rare for modern medicine. The aborted lifeform would have carried your line to the next generation and possessed your appearance and likeness. He or she would have loved you and perhaps given you grandchildren. Clearly it was wrong to take life from them.

SOCIAL, LEGAL AND FAMILY HARM;

Men and women have differing reasons for sexual relations by virtue of their gender differences and status under the law. A single woman with children is a totally different person with a totally different life than a man with part time custody of kids from a previous divorce. He does not enjoy the same rights or proclivities under the law as a single mother and he will find out the hard way if he thinks cohabiting with her is going to work out. Say hello to family court and the judge that will now rule your life-alimony deducted from your paycheck to the mother and child support to a kid you can't know well enough to enjoy being a father to. Look like CONSENSUAL SEX worked out real good here.

In these attempted and failed blended families, children commonly become tools for manipulation, used as legal and psychological weapons for money or protection against a guardian with more concern for the kids but who lacks the moral and legal standing to do anything about it. This is a common scenario where with promiscuous adults, kids are victimized in family relations, both legally and psychologically.

PHYSICAL HARM

How many got the itchy scratchy down there from CONSENSUAL SEX? Shout out to the Coach Gang!

The unspoken platitudes that seek to justify, not merely by legal means but moral as well, all adult sexual relations by consent is demonstrably wrong. The underlying assumption is that there is no personal culpability for the consequences of wrongdoing that follows qualitatively poor choices of sex. The person, the condition, and circumstance of each sexual encounter must be graded on a continuum of good to bad, risk versus security, because each one is an act with moral, social, relational, and legal implications that extend well beyond the encounter. The Bible knows this and teaches celibacy and marriage to make society, families and individuals strong, protecting them from everyone of these harms.

We have the poor social statistics and victimization of people and children today because the promiscuous majority do not believe this and have made worse sexual decisions than previous generations. This critique of modern thought demonstrates that the ills of society are caused by individuals who don't take responsibility for there lusts and hide there weakness behind a veil of false social morality.

"Consensual sex is moral sex and above the reproach of others."

Apparently not.

"What others do under the sheets is not my business."

Apparently it is because I may be your child, your spouse, a legal sexual exploit, your unborn child or the guy paying for your mistakes funding your abortion or taking care you and your family through social welfare.

"My body, my choice, do no harm to others."

You are harming plenty.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." -Romans 6:23
Quad Dog
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Couple of thoughts:

This could have been added to your other thread.

I guess you didn't really read or understand the other thread responses that always mentioned the consent of adults. Children cannot consent to sexual activities. So that eliminates all your points about child exploitation.

You keep using consensual sex in all caps, but I think you are really making arguments on the Christian policy against sex outside of marriage. Weird that you keep saying it that way, because the way you write it makes it seem like you are arguing against consensual sex, which makes you a fan of non-consensual sex. I don't think that's what you are trying to say. I just keep reading all your paragraphs like you are for non-consesual sex when you are really for sex only in a marriage. I took the positive road and assumed every point you made was comparing and contrasting sex inside or outside of marriage and not comparing and contrasting consensual vs non-consensual sex.

Quote:

Never lie to yourself and believe that psychologically healthy people regularly come out of CONSENSUAL SEX with no negative thought or consequence regarding the other person, the experience itself or its effect on their life.
This is just straight false. What kind of consensual sex have you been having where this happens?

Quote:

What are vows if they are made by swine that go right back to rollicking in the mud after putting on a tuxedo and gown? The breaking of marital vows by CONSENSUAL SEX with another person is explicitly the beaking of a commitment, of trust, is harmful and unlawful.
I think most atheists would agree with this, except for the calling people swine part. Most atheists would have too much respect for other people to do that.

Again, I think most Atheists would agree with your section on HARM TO LIFE, but all of those things happen in a whole lot of marriages too.

Your section on SOCIAL, LEGAL AND FAMILY HARM seems to argue more about men being treated the same in family law as women. That's a completely separate topic that again most atheists would probably agree with you on. And again all of that happens inside marriage probably more than outside.

Quote:

How many got the itchy scratchy down there from CONSENSUAL SEX? Shout out to the Coach Gang!
Itchy scratchy? Coach Gang? I think this is about STIs? STIs can be spread from all kinds of activities inside and outside of marriage. Yes spread is less likely in a monogamous relationship.

Quote:

The unspoken platitudes that seek to justify, not merely by legal means but moral as well, all adult sexual relations by consent is demonstrably wrong. The underlying assumption is that there is no personal culpability for the consequences of wrongdoing that follows qualitatively poor choices of sex.
Where did anyone say this? Everyone should have to face the consequences of the decisions they make, including sex choices.
Quote:

The person, the condition, and circumstance of each sexual encounter must be graded on a continuum of good to bad, risk versus security, because each one is an act with moral, social, relational, and legal implications that extend well beyond the encounter
Agree

Quote:

The Bible knows this and teaches celibacy and marriage to make society, families and individuals strong, protecting them from everyone of these harms
So? And the ~70% of the world that doesn't follow the Bible should be able to make up their own minds wiht their own morality, rules, laws, customs, or alternative religious text. The teaching of the The Bible should not be dictated on all of humanity.

Quote:

We have the poor social statistics and victimization of people and children today because the promiscuous majority do not believe this and have made worse sexual decisions than previous generations
I think you are misinformed about the sexual decisions of previous generations. Plenty of victimization of people and children and promiscuity to go around there too.

Duncan Idaho
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There are 3 things that can happen to an aborted fetus.

1) go to heaven
2) is annihilated
3) goes to hell.

In case one, getting aborted is truly a blessing. You're guaranteed entrance into heaven without the risk of losing your salvation for not being saved during your life on Earth.

In option 2, it's a non-event before consciousness.

Any god that would allow option number three to take place is more evil than any other imagined.

OLD MAN, INTERRUPTED
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"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement." - Tolkien
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." -Romans 6:23
Duncan Idaho
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Really not sure how that is relevant. I was not doing anything in judgement.

I just don't think abortion is, at worst, an issue not worth worrying about and, at best, a blessing.
OLD MAN, INTERRUPTED
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That is extraordinary.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." -Romans 6:23
Duncan Idaho
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Which of the 3 outcomes for an aborted fetus do you think happens?

Hell, heaven or annihilation?
OLD MAN, INTERRUPTED
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How can this be construed as merciful? Unless you hate your life and deny others the right to decide for themselves.



Of course many living persons report to lead fulfilling lives but this is denied to the aborted human, and this is construed as a merciful act? By what objective moral standard is this merciful? Are we supposed to envy the aborted then because we lived and decided life is not a worthy experience?

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." -Romans 6:23
Star Wars Memes Only
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Here is a giant scary straw man, as seems to be the subject of this thread:

OLD MAN, INTERRUPTED
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You supplied the subject matter. (Insert derogatory term)! Your sins come back to haunt you.

dargscisyhp said:

OLD MAN, INTERRUPTED said:

Sexual immorality?


Between consenting adults, there shouldn't be.


Just how do you propose to dispense with the natural consequences of incest when the very nature of the act is self-destructive?

dargscisyhp said:

dermdoc said:

dargscisyhp said:

Presumably because of your religion? Or is there more than that?
How does incest help a society?


I think this is the wrong question to ask. I think a more relevant question is how does incest harm a society. If you get rid of the harms (as Astro attempted to do), I see no reason to disallow it.


Here is your healthy logic justifying child exploitation.

dargscisyhp said:

dermdoc said:


And your last statement is your opinion, correct?


I think if you start legislating based solely on what's gross in anything other than a totally homogenous society you open up huge swaths of people to subjugation, persecution, and general 2nd class citizenship status. If we can't agree that's bad, I don't really have a basis to move this conversation forward.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." -Romans 6:23
OLD MAN, INTERRUPTED
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But do not worry. Your friends did just as bad and worse than you. Now everyone can see what we as responsible moral men are up against. Thank you.

Dilettante said:

It's very difficult to write laws legalizing incest because there are so many cases where it's harmful. Having inbred babies is bad. Grooming your young family members is bad. If both these things can be prevented, it should be legal. In practice though that's tough.


Dilettante said:

You seem to think that whether you're okay with your kids doing something should be what determines if it's legal. I don't think that's how we should make our laws.


kurt vonnegut said:

dermdoc said:

If you are okay with incest, then you are okay with your adult son having consensual sex with your adult daughter.
I don't think this question is answerable unless you define what does it mean to be 'okay with incest'? There is a difference between approving a behavior and believing that something should be legally or socially permissible. For example, you might disapprove of your children converting to Hinduism, but also believe that they should be legal permitted to convert and that they should not be ostracized for their belief. Are you 'okay' with your child converting to another religion?

Personally, I would not want my adult children having sex with one another. I also do not think that I should have authoritative control over my children once they become adults. If you solved for the possible harmful byproducts like the ones Dilettante mentioned, then your remaining objection is religious morality, right?

What other things would you consider immoral on the basis of your religion? How about being a practicing Jew? Or Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, or atheist? How about being a greedy business person? Or a drunk? Or eating 3 meals a day McDonald's? Do you hold the same contempt for these things as you do sexual immorality?

Everyone has some personal idea of morality. My morality is different than yours. I am not God Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth, Arbitrator of good and evil, Source of all Objective Truth. Maybe you are. But, since I am not, I try to be careful about imposing my morality on others to tell them what they 'should' or 'should not' do. I am comfortable with laws designed to not permit someone to cause harm to others. But I am not comfortable putting moral judgement on consulting adults involved in a sexual relationship that you find vulgar.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." -Romans 6:23
Star Wars Memes Only
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I can't find a big enough straw man on the internet.
OLD MAN, INTERRUPTED
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dargscisyhp said:

I can't find a big enough straw man on the internet.


This is a refresher post to ask the forum to once more enjoy this thread and entertain for themselves the arguments of the opposing sides.

Ask if dizzystarship is correct or if there is a morally superior truth that condemns his views, Kurt Vonnegut's and Dlllente who all in various ways promoted incest. And maybe you will find some wisdom in my opening post that applies to you.

Cheers and keep the faith brothers!
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." -Romans 6:23
Goodbull_19
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dargscisyhp said:

I can't find a big enough straw man on the internet.
I must admit, I find Old Man's thoughts hard to follow and didn't read the whole OP...

But I find articles such as this generally a good indication that Old Man is on to something...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/06/29/pride-month-kink-consent/

I do find it concerning that mainstream sexual ethics really can't argue why this writer is wrong to do this.
Quad Dog
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His kids, his business.
I could make the argument that the extreme opposite of his opinion (giving your kids 0 information about common sex practices, that I've known more than one conservative parents to do) can be a worse thing to do to a kid turning into an adult.
Goodbull_19
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Quad Dog said:

His kids, his business.
I could make the argument that the extreme opposite of his opinion (giving your kids 0 information about common sex practices, that I've known more than one conservative parents to do) can be a worse thing to do to a kid turning into an adult.


It is his business in that he has the right to take his children to a pride parade and educate them how he wants. I am not in favor of legislating on this issue.

However it is "bad business" just as I'm sure you would agree the conservative religious parents in your example are conducting "bad business" by not educating their children about sex at all.

My point is that it is okay, and good even, to have open dialogue about what is right and wrong. "Bad business" v "good business" as it were. I am not arguing here people's legal rights. My fear is how hesitant people seem to be to ascribe moral judgements to things at all. It feels rather nihilistic to me.
Quad Dog
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Goodbull_19 said:

Quad Dog said:

His kids, his business.
I could make the argument that the extreme opposite of his opinion (giving your kids 0 information about common sex practices, that I've known more than one conservative parents to do) can be a worse thing to do to a kid turning into an adult.


It is his business in that he has the right to take his children to a pride parade and educate them how he wants. I am not in favor of legislating on this issue.

However it is "bad business" just as I'm sure you would agree the conservative religious parents in your example are conducting "bad business" by not educating their children about sex at all.

My point is that it is okay, and good even, to have open dialogue about what is right and wrong. "Bad business" v "good business" as it were. I am not arguing here people's legal rights. My fear is how hesitant people seem to be to ascribe moral judgements to things at all. It feels rather nihilistic to me.

I don't think people are hesitant to ascribe moral judgment. Maybe they've finally learned to keep them to themselves. Or as you said earlier we've finally learned to not legislate on those moral judgments.
That's an interesting thought: at what point does sharing your moral judgments to those you are judging become immoral?
Goodbull_19
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Quad Dog said:

Goodbull_19 said:

Quad Dog said:

His kids, his business.
I could make the argument that the extreme opposite of his opinion (giving your kids 0 information about common sex practices, that I've known more than one conservative parents to do) can be a worse thing to do to a kid turning into an adult.


It is his business in that he has the right to take his children to a pride parade and educate them how he wants. I am not in favor of legislating on this issue.

However it is "bad business" just as I'm sure you would agree the conservative religious parents in your example are conducting "bad business" by not educating their children about sex at all.

My point is that it is okay, and good even, to have open dialogue about what is right and wrong. "Bad business" v "good business" as it were. I am not arguing here people's legal rights. My fear is how hesitant people seem to be to ascribe moral judgements to things at all. It feels rather nihilistic to me.

I don't think people are hesitant to ascribe moral judgment. Maybe they've finally learned to keep them to themselves. Or as you said earlier we've finally learned to not legislate on those moral judgments.
That's an interesting thought: at what point does sharing your moral judgments to those you are judging become immoral?
Actually, I do agree people are not hesitatant to ascribe moral judgment. What I do find ironic, however, is how so many people ascribe moral judgments on those for the sin of ascribing judgment.

Interesting thought indeed! I think the morality of that largely is circumstantial. Are you sharing due to your genuine love for the other and wanting the best for them? Are you sharing for your own self-aggrandizing and to feel superior? Or to publicly humiliate someone? That is probably the main consideration.
Spyderman
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Dunno about this, only that there are much more important issues taking place on our planet. Yes, even transcending sex.
Grab some popcorn...why the ongoing cover-up? The Phenomenon: FF to 1:22:35 https://tubitv.com/movies/632920/the-phenomenon

An est. 68 MILLION Americans, including 19 MILLION Black Children, have been killed in the WOMB since 1973-act, pray and vote accordingly.

TAMU purpose statement: To develop leaders of character dedicated to serving the greater good. Team entrance song at KYLE FIELD is laced with profanity including THE Nword..
The greater good?
Star Wars Memes Only
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Goodbull_19 said:

dargscisyhp said:

I can't find a big enough straw man on the internet.
I must admit, I find Old Man's thoughts hard to follow and didn't read the whole OP...

His posts are garbage, and should largely be ignored. The assertion that anyone here is peddling pedophilia is disingenuous drivel. It's the sort of polemic that might rouse the crowd elsewhere, but it's thinly veiled enough that anything with two neurons and a synapse should be able to see right through it.

Quote:

But I find articles such as this generally a good indication that Old Man is on to something...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/06/29/pride-month-kink-consent/

I do find it concerning that mainstream sexual ethics really can't argue why this writer is wrong to do this.

My response to you would be that if there is an argument to be made against what the writer is doing, it should be a pragmatic one, and should go beyond mere moralizing.
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