dargscisyhp said:

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Personally, I'd have them wait until they're older to get body modifications of any sort, but, yea, after 6 years if that's what makes her happy more power to her.

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Just curious, would you have her see a psychiatrist?

Because of my own personal experiences, which I would rather not talk about, I'm profoundly distrustful of mental health practitioners. Personal bias, I know, but it is what it is, so no.

dargscisyhp said:

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Because of my own personal experiences, which I would rather not talk about, I'm profoundly distrustful of mental health practitioners. Personal bias, I know, but it is what it is, so no.

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I do not trust them much either. And I will be perfectly honest, I do not understand this identity stuff and have little experience with it medically.

But a lizard? I do not know man.

It'd be weird, for sure.

Here's my totally non-controversial list of values of a secular society.

1) Don't be an a-hole.
2) Let people live their lives and be who they are. As long as they aren't harming others, their lives are none of your business.
3) On that note, don't impose personal beliefs on others via public policy. We come from many backgrounds, beliefs, faiths, and cultures.
4) Go to church if you want, or don't. Live out your faith. But also please respect the decisions of those who wish not to do so.
5) Be open and understanding of others. Their journey is not the same as yours. Even if you staunchly disagree with them, it is worth hearing them out because they may have a point.
6) Ask questions. Educate. Exchange ideas. Discover new things. Challenge your beliefs.

Orthodox Texan said:

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So it's a key part but you aren't worried about losing it? Interesting take. Also what does a society look like that places a high value on empathy and understanding? If your 10 year old son comes to you and says he identifies as a girl what move do you make? Do you have empathy and allow him to make changes?

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No, why would I be worried? When it comes to culture, we've quite often lost sight of why something was originally done or made modifications to a practice to an extent that it no longer really resembles the original act. Holidays are a good example of this. Do modern people care, for example, where the word Easter comes from or why the imagery of bunnies and eggs are associated with it? Nope, but there is a good reason for it if you look. Like I've said many times before, it is the nature of cultural progression to take from what comes before as it grows into something else. I don't actually believe we could stop that even if we wanted to.

Now as for the example of a 10 year old son identifying as a girl, I think the first point to make would be that if I want a culture that prioritizes empathy and understanding that applies to me as well. So it's on me to talk my child and understand what they're feeling and why. What I am definitely not going to do is try to shame a child going through puberty for being uncertain about the things they feel. How I respond would depend on what the kid is asking for.

If I thought my kid was going to do irreparable damage to their life I wouldn't let them do it while they lived with me. I don't see why pretending to be a lizard is in that category. If my kid was trans and wanted to transition I would do many hundreds of hours of research before deciding.

Dilettante said:

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If I thought my kid was going to do irreparable damage to their life I wouldn't let them do it while they lived with me. I don't see why pretending to be a lizard is in that category. If my kid was trans and wanted to transition I would do many hundreds of hours of research before deciding.

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well at least you have that.

Rocag said:

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Orthodox Texan said:

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So it's a key part but you aren't worried about losing it? Interesting take. Also what does a society look like that places a high value on empathy and understanding? If your 10 year old son comes to you and says he identifies as a girl what move do you make? Do you have empathy and allow him to make changes?

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No, why would I be worried? When it comes to culture, we've quite often lost sight of why something was originally done or made modifications to a practice to an extent that it no longer really resembles the original act. Holidays are a good example of this. Do modern people care, for example, where the word Easter comes from or why the imagery of bunnies and eggs are associated with it? Nope, but there is a good reason for it if you look. Like I've said many times before, it is the nature of cultural progression to take from what comes before as it grows into something else. I don't actually believe we could stop that even if we wanted to.

Now as for the example of a 10 year old son identifying as a girl, I think the first point to make would be that if I want a culture that prioritizes empathy and understanding that applies to me as well. So it's on me to talk my child and understand what they're feeling and why. What I am definitely not going to do is try to shame a child going through puberty for being uncertain about the things they feel. How I respond would depend on what the kid is asking for.

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I actually agree that we can't stop culture from shifting. We are currently in a process of ending a previous worldview but I'll admit it's shocking how quickly it's coming apart. I would never shame my son but I would absolutely analyze the surrounding culture and see what influences are being pressed upon him and if there is any truth or credibility to these new ideas arising in secular culture. So far I've seen none but of course my Christian assumptions have identity within Christ and not the self. You guys are preaching some really weird lifestyle that doesn't ground any identity.

Dilettante said:

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If I thought my kid was going to do irreparable damage to their life I wouldn't let them do it while they lived with me. I don't see why pretending to be a lizard is in that category. If my kid was trans and wanted to transition I would do many hundreds of hours of research before deciding.

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They do not pretend to be a lizard. They get cosmetic surgery, tattoos, the whole thing. Bad parenting imho.

larry culpepper said:

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Here's my totally non-controversial list of values of a secular society.

1) Don't be an a-hole.
2) Let people live their lives and be who they are. As long as they aren't harming others, their lives are none of your business.
3) On that note, don't impose personal beliefs on others via public policy. We come from many backgrounds, beliefs, faiths, and cultures.
4) Go to church if you want, or don't. Live out your faith. But also please respect the decisions of those who wish not to do so.
5) Be open and understanding of others. Their journey is not the same as yours. Even if you staunchly disagree with them, it is worth hearing them out because they may have a point.
6) Ask questions. Educate. Exchange ideas. Discover new things. Challenge your beliefs.

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I challenge my beliefs all the time. Everything you posted comes from a western line of thinking that has created the individual. We are now seeing the fruits of that worldview. It is clearly you that needs to examine your beliefs because you don't know where they come from.

Their lives are my business if they are influencing my family such as teachers or public officials spreading LGBTQQIP2SAA propaganda. The amount of trans people snapping at citizens and causing ridiculous disturbances throughout our society because they can't force someone to use whatever preferred pronoun they desire is ridiculous.

You say don't impose your personal beliefs on society and yet that is exactly what that community is doing. So who's really the a-hole?

dargscisyhp said:

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Personally, I'd have them wait until they're older to get body modifications of any sort, but, yea, after 6 years if that's what makes her happy more power to her.

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Right because a six year old definitely has it all figured out. Black Mirror is becoming a reality.

My eldest is 12 (or will be in a few weeks)

dermdoc said:

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Dilettante said:

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If I thought my kid was going to do irreparable damage to their life I wouldn't let them do it while they lived with me. I don't see why pretending to be a lizard is in that category. If my kid was trans and wanted to transition I would do many hundreds of hours of research before deciding.

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They do not pretend to be a lizard. They get cosmetic surgery, tattoos, the whole thing. Bad parenting imho.

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I wouldn't allow that. But I also don't think a body of research exists which shows tangible benefits from living as a reptile, other than millions of YouTube views:

Dilettante said:

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dermdoc said:

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Dilettante said:

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If I thought my kid was going to do irreparable damage to their life I wouldn't let them do it while they lived with me. I don't see why pretending to be a lizard is in that category. If my kid was trans and wanted to transition I would do many hundreds of hours of research before deciding.

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They do not pretend to be a lizard. They get cosmetic surgery, tattoos, the whole thing. Bad parenting imho.

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I wouldn't allow that. But I also don't think a body of research exists which shows tangible benefits from living as a snake, other than millions of YouTube views:

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That is funny. But when kids start doing plastic surgery and tattoos to look like a lizard or snake it is not funny. Have seen some of them.

Sigh...every thread it seems like, yet it's apparently people like me who are shoving who I am in people's faces.

Btw, a great new book is coming out called Heavy Burdens. It's by my friend, Bridget Eileen Rivera. I got an advance copy and can't recommend it enough. She's a devout Christian and celibate lesbian. Definitely recommend.

You've seen them in person?

Post Christian societies already exist. They are mostly the same as they were before. Same as we will be, for better and worse.

The only thing I think will be tricky to replace is the actual community of a church. People gathering and making friends, coming up with communal activities and excuses to be social is healthy for a society and there isn't an equivalent in non religious framework that gets the same sort of effect that I've seen.

Yeah I agree. It would be nice if there was a secular alternative to the social aspect of church.

PacifistAg said:

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Sigh...every thread it seems like, yet it's apparently people like me who are shoving who I am in people's faces.

Btw, a great new book is coming out called Heavy Burdens. It's by my friend, Bridget Eileen Rivera. I got an advance copy and can't recommend it enough. She's a devout Christian and celibate lesbian. Definitely recommend.

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I'll listen to it on Audible if it is available. Just checked out her Twitter. Yes repentance is necessary for all Christians. We all have issues. Martin Luther got it wrong by saying you can be just and a sinner. The two are incompatible. I wouldn't say getting rid of queerness is the issue. The debate is really about sin and why Christianity has historically opposed these types of relationships and understanding what sin actually means. I do have sympathy for these people. Much easier to go with the flow of the current culture and abandon your identity in Christ but then again where is the identity rooted? Christ or the self? This is a question for all Christians throughout their lives.

Thankfully I didn't abandon my identity in Christ. In fact, my faith only deepened and grew stronger.

Dilettante said:

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AGC said:

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Dilettante said:

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People would have kids for the same reasons they do now, minus any religious ones. But I don't think religion plays into that decision for most.

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Secular western culture doesn't have children, especially not enough to manufacture the robots that are taking care of everyone. It's playing itself out in Europe repeatedly. And Japan. Hence the question. Also hence the big difference between mainline and evangelical denominations (and breaks inside those too).

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Secular western culture isn't homogenous. Japan doesn't seem like a western culture. The US wouldn't become Europe without religion. The answer remains the same. I'm not sure why we're talking about manufacturing robots.

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So what are these 'reasons'? Let's be specific. Lots of people here have kids so we can easily poll not only why but how many they have. I think you'll find a divide and even then, I think you'll find a further divide between those that choose secular education (re:public) and religious or private.

Edit: to be clear I think there's a paradigm shift that isn't being acknowledged. We're post birth control and no longer agrarian. When one says 'reasons' to refer to now, there's such a low birth rate in western and modern cultures that the sustainability is a real question as birth rates are below replacement rates. Removing religious people from the equation (I believe) would make them even lower.

Aggrad08 said:

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Post Christian societies already exist. They are mostly the same as they were before. Same as we will be, for better and worse.

The only thing I think will be tricky to replace is the actual community of a church. People gathering and making friends, coming up with communal activities and excuses to be social is healthy for a society and there isn't an equivalent in non religious framework that gets the same sort of effect that I've seen.

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How many kids do they have? What's their ability to survive?

Dilettante said:

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Yeah I agree. It would be nice if there was a secular alternative to the social aspect of church.

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Here you go. I personally find the churches that humanists build to be very interesting. Basically they are universalists that attempt to unify mass diversification. Its rarely successful for obvious reasons.

https://americanhumanist.org/get-involved/find-or-start-a-chapter/

Interesting. That type of socialization is more relevant to people with kids or who want to get to know members of a local community. That's good to know.

Btw, may I kindly ask that you remove that tweet. Given I've had someone try to doxx me on here, I'd feel much safer if that wasn't on this site. Especially given some here and there stated views about people like me.

Sure

Edit- That was a random tweet I chose on her page. If that was you I didn't know and had no intention of doxxing.

Orthodox Texan said:

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dargscisyhp said:

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Personally, I'd have them wait until they're older to get body modifications of any sort, but, yea, after 6 years if that's what makes her happy more power to her.

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Right because a six year old definitely has it all figured out. Black Mirror is becoming a reality.

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Ok, I went back and read my post and I can see why you would read it that way.

Generally, I mean when they're older -- 15, 16, 17, 18 they should have more say over what they want to do with their bodies.

dargscisyhp said:

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Orthodox Texan said:

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dargscisyhp said:

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Personally, I'd have them wait until they're older to get body modifications of any sort, but, yea, after 6 years if that's what makes her happy more power to her.

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Right because a six year old definitely has it all figured out. Black Mirror is becoming a reality.

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Ok, I went back and read my post and I can see why you would read it that way.

Generally, I mean when they're older -- 15, 16, 17, 18 they should have more say over what they want to do with their bodies.

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Well if it's 18 at least you can't be held liable if something goes wrong. I recommend this book so you can at least begin to understand your worldview.

https://www.amazon.com/Inventing-Individual-Origins-Western-Liberalism/dp/0674417534

Dilettante said:

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You've seen them in person?

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Yep.

Aggrad08 said:

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Post Christian societies already exist. They are mostly the same as they were before. Same as we will be, for better and worse.

The only thing I think will be tricky to replace is the actual community of a church. People gathering and making friends, coming up with communal activities and excuses to be social is healthy for a society and there isn't an equivalent in non religious framework that gets the same sort of effect that I've seen.

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The problem is that you can not get rid of the Holy Spirit. And that is why Christianity will never go away.

The reason church communities are what they are is due to the presence of the Holy Spirit.

dermdoc said:

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Dilettante said:

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You've seen them in person?

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Yep.

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Didn't think you worked in Austin, Derm.

dermdoc said:

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Aggrad08 said:

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Post Christian societies already exist. They are mostly the same as they were before. Same as we will be, for better and worse.

The only thing I think will be tricky to replace is the actual community of a church. People gathering and making friends, coming up with communal activities and excuses to be social is healthy for a society and there isn't an equivalent in non religious framework that gets the same sort of effect that I've seen.

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The problem is that you can not get rid of the Holy Spirit. And that is why Christianity will never go away.

The reason church communities are what they are is due to the presence of the Holy Spirit.

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Does the holy spirit act just as strongly for other religions?

dermdoc said:

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dargscisyhp said:

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Be who you want to be as long as you're not hurting others seems like a generally good guiding principle.

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So if your kid identifies as a lizard, you are okay with them getting plastic surgery,mtattoos, etc. to try to become one?

I mean, it is not hurting anyone, correct?

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I think your position is a little disingenuous perhaps. There is a distinction between allowing your children to understand themselves / embrace who they are and permitting children to fully live out every whim or urge that pops in their head.

If I were to make an argument about raising children as Christians in the same manner as you and Orthodox, then I would ask why you think its appropriate to force your children to believe exactly as you believe, adopt your exact values, and deny them all autonomy of thought when it comes to their own believes. Why do you think its okay to brainwash your children into thinking that the must fit into every religious or societal box that you determine is permissible for them? Of course, I wouldn't make this argument. Because its disingenuous and I'm clearly and intentionally misrepresenting what you believe.

I don't think its fair to conflate the parent that embraces a gay child and a parent that allows their children to get plastic surgery to make them look like a lizard.

Fair enough. Just an awfully slippery slope imho. Especially if you are talking about children under the age of 18.