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I only go by the word of God, and it tells me to SING -- so that's what I do -- nothing more.

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Are you in obedience from the heart or the mind? If you are in obedience from the mind, you are establishing Law....if you are led by your heart, you are in submission to God (I am assuming your will is in submission to the Will of God, or I could not make this statement).

Our Lord suggests that we fast on occasion, for instance. He did not make it a requirement, because He would be establihing Law, which He would soon fulfill.

Just another slant.

david

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On the contrary, Yeshua said that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

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Bracy, my boy....the Pharisees were not righteous in the eyes of God....only themselves. Our Lord is saying here not to be a rule-follower, but believe and be led by the Holy Spirit.

david

The Holy Spirit revealed we should SING. I follow my heart by doing what is revealed. If I follow my heart, and don't do what is revealed OR go beyond what is revealed then I have sinned.

This is what happens when we follow our heart, and not the word of God revealed to us through the Holy Spirit......

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Prov 28:26 -- He who trusts in his own heart is a fool, But he who walks wisely will be delivered.

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texags77@yahoo.com
Please feel free to respond by email.

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This is what happens when we follow our heart, and not the word of God revealed to us through the Holy Spirit

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......

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(I am assuming your will is in submission to the Will of God, or I could not make this statement).

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I would ask that you read, please. If you are in submission to God, you heart will follow His will. I wasn't talking about emotion.

d.

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This is what happens when we follow our heart, and not the word of God revealed to us through the Holy Spirit

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......

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(I am assuming your will is in submission to the Will of God, or I could not make this statement).

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I would ask that you read, please. If you are in submission to God, you heart will follow His will. I wasn't talking about emotion.

d.

Suit yourself as far as worship, but I think you will hunger for that deeper intimacy with God someday. Our charismatic Methodist tradition allows us the freedom to worship in very expressive ways like the Hebrews did (do now).

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If Jesus appeared to worship at the synagogues and Temple, then he would have heard and appreciated instrumental music, right? Did he ever prohibit this? I don't think so.........I agree that Paul wanted all things in order as expressed in his letter to the Cortinthians, but that doesn't mean we put a strait jacket on the worshippers.

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Yes Jesus did appear to worship in those places and he commanded that others obey the old law until his church was established by fulfilling the gospel. His ministry deals with worship, as does the other letters of instruction from Paul and other righteous men. Did he prohibit it? Doesnt say. But did he endorse it? Doesnt say either. Its silent on this issue. Those wise men, men of the law, and priests (of the temple and synagogue) were also the ones that plotted to kill Jesus and were those which Christ took serious issue against because of their ways. Remember, his church was established by claiming he could rebuild the temple in 3 days.....Not the temple many thought he was speaking of...

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Suit yourself as far as worship, but I think you will hunger for that deeper intimacy with God someday. Our charismatic Methodist tradition allows us the freedom to worship in very expressive ways like the Hebrews did (do now).

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He is suiting himself as far as worship, as do you! You can not say he does not pocess said deeper intimacy? Cant judge ones heart.

I find the latter portion of your bost interesting since you speak of methodistic freedoms. Where they came from sparks interest in me.....

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Our charismatic Methodist tradition allows us...

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Exactly. Your charismatic Methodist tradition allows you -- not the word of God.

Orphan (I think)...
I am in submission to God by my heart with obedience. If I don't do what God tells me then what am I doing? Following my heart with out obedience. I am doing what is revealed because if I go too far I will not abide in the doctrine of Christ.

Don't be confused -- heart is a figure of speech in the Bible for mind. Your heart can't figure anything out. It's your mind's most sincere state doing what is right etc...

"He's got a good heart -- he is open to being taught." Am I saying he is healthy his heart is functioning well, or am I saying his mind is set toward God, and he wants to do the right thing? (please ignore the longest run-on ever).

texags77@yahoo.com
Please feel free to respond by email.

PhiAg- Sure am sorry to hear about your fight with cancer. I pray for your recovery and God's blessings on you and yours.

If I can respond (belatedly) to some questions you raised-

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Please give specific scripture/example to this claimed "fact."

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Fact- Jesus was Jewish (among other things)
Fact- Jesus observed temple worship (Eg. Luke 2:22 et seq., Mark 11:11,27, Luke 2:41-46)
Fact- Temple worship entailed instruments.
Fact- Jesus never condemned instrumental worship.

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Which citation? Ive missed it.....

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Acts 21:26, where Paul, 25 years after the resurrection of Jesus, is worshipping at the temple with those instruments.

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I do not believe in instrumental worship since there are no directions or examples of it given. That being said, I do not wish to add or take away from the word. To do so, is to change doctrine according to ones own desire.

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May I assume that you worship naked in your church, since there is no NT reference to wearing clothes in worship? 2 Cor. 5:2-4 says that in this life we are unclothed and 1 Pet. 5:5 says our clothing is to be humility. It appears to me that wearing clothes to church has no NT mandate, has no directions or examples in the realm of church or worship and is therefore adding to the word if clothes are worn to church. This is of course ridiculous but has as much scriptural justification as the instrument question.

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Dont speak in absolutes. The funny thing is, you still havent mentioned examples or direct preachings of musical instrument uses in the NT.

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Neither have you. (And yes I have addressed NT examples, including the Revelation citations addressed below). It would seem to me incumbent upon you, as the one challenging the status quo at the time the scriptures were written, to show that the NT authors had in mind to show the OT model was being rejected here. To recap, God full embraced, even mandated, instrumental worship in the OT; instrumental worship was proceeding at the time of Jesus and subsequently during the time of the 12 apostles, whom each participated in said worship; instrumental worship is the model in heaven; God does not change; the Gospels and Epistles do not directly address, much less preclude,instrumental worship, but we are to conclude God does not wish us to use instruments in worship(???).

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Are you going to try and argue Revelation?

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Yes.

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Revelation from John being a vision with many arguable translations? Its agreed to be symbolic literature very distinct in nature. Would you take it in literal form?

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My basic rule of scripture interpretation is to follow the literal and plain meaning first, seeking spiritual meanings next, and relying on metaphors or allegories only when the plain meaning is somehow contraindicated. So unless there is a compelling reason to deliteralize the Revelation citations the literal and plain meaning is preferred. And even if the instruments are only symbolic, the symbols used (instruments accompanying singing in His worship) are plainly pleasing to God!

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Are there only 144k saved?

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No, and that is not what Revelation says. But yes, I think there will be a defined group of saints, numbering 144,000 souls, who perform a defined task.

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It isnt a specific example of NT church worship, rather a vision of things to come (at that time)

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It is a little more than that. It is indicative of God's will and pleasure. Your interpretation means God is forbidding us from doing that which is scripturally pleasing to Him.

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These examples are arguable and lost in translation at best.

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Disagree, and presumably so does your church. Do you suggest that all your personal and church doctrines arising from Revelation be discarded because some of it is symbolic and metaphorical, or arguable and subject to differing interpretations? What is the purpose of this great prophecy if not to inform us of God's will, purpose and pleasure? Do you not effectively "take words away from this book of prophecy"(Rev. 22:19)?

Orphan:

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Bracy, my boy....the Pharisees were not righteous in the eyes of God....only themselves. Our Lord is saying here not to be a rule-follower, but believe and be led by the Holy Spirit.

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Exactly right. He was telling us to follow the Law of Moses, and not the man-made laws of the rabbis. But, He certainly wasn't telling us not to follow the Torah *AT ALL.* Without the Torah, there's no such thing as "righteous" because there's nothing that defines what "righteous" is.

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 4/30/2004 10:25a).]

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Suit yourself as far as worship, but I think you will hunger for that deeper intimacy with God someday. Our charismatic Methodist tradition allows us the freedom to worship in very expressive ways like the Hebrews did (do now).

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Worship isn't and never should be about suiting ourselves. It's about praising God. All human societies in one way or another has made this a bit easy to forget by whatever distraction. When we make it about us for any reason, our "worship" becomes an act directed at self.

How is your "hunger" satisfied with an instrument? a band? or anything other than heart to heart, unassisted communion with God?
I ask truely, because I've never felt robbed of anything, nor do I believe that I would find God or come into his presence sooner or more fully with anything more than a heart's communion.

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Your interpretation means God is forbidding us from doing that which is scripturally pleasing to Him.

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I think I can sum it all up in response to this. I will come back and pick up this discussion next week since I need to travel back to SA for my treatments this weekend.

My interpretation is not saying God is forbidding us from which is scripturaly pleasing. It doesnt say. That is my point. It is not discussed for clarity by Christ nor the apostles. So if it isnt discussed for clarity without examples or direct teachings, who can say it is acceptable for worship. By your line of thought, since God doesnt change then women have it a lot tougher nowdays. Since God doesnt change then we should follow the Law of Moses (impossible). Since God doesnt change, then we can still stone people to death openly for their sins. Since God doesnt change, then Christ is useless.

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These examples are arguable and lost in translation at best.

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You're saying that the Word of God can be lost in translation. How can you claim to follow it if you can't even be sure what it says?

You make a fallacy by stating you must obdy the old law. It either stands together or falls together. You can't just pick and choose what you want to keep from the old law. If you keep one thing you must keep it all. Sacrifice, incense, everything in Leviticus... All of it must be kept -- Temple worship, the levitical priesthood...

What gives you the right to pick and choose? What gives you the right to say I will choose this, but not that? It either stands together, or it falls like a house of cards.

texags77@yahoo.com
Please feel free to respond by email.

Friends, I appreciate your encouraging words on my health. I thank you....

Physics, please dont cherry pick my sentences and use them out of context. I was speaking about the book of revelations which is highly symbolic. There are a few interpretations of Johns vision. Some believe it has already occured, some believe it has yet to occur, some believe it is occuring over time. Are there such things as dragons and whatnot in reality form? Does that affect worship? hmmm..........

PhiAggie:
I wasn't "using" your sentence at all. I was asking a question that you appear to have taken as rhetorical, but I meant it sincerely. You seem to be making an observation to the effect that Scripture passages have more or less effectiveness depending on how "clear" the interpretation of the passage is. Since clarity is such a subjective notion, I honestly wonder how you can ever trust any interpretation. What if someone later disagrees with you and claims to have a clearer interpretation, or as in this case, argues that a text does have a clear interpretation when you say it doesn't?

PhiAggie:

You're right, you're right, you're right.

Now, why is it that you have a need to make others wrong on this issue ?

I am fairly new to TexAgs, and I can honestly say that I have enjoyed reading this section more than anywhere else. I frankly see aspects of both sides that have validity. However, as a protestant, I establish doctrine by scripture not church tradition. Also, many of the arguments uses to debunk instruments in worship apply to other areas that we are inconsistent in. The danger of ego involvement is valid for those speaking in public. The argument that the first century church has no record of instruments, therefore, we shouldn't use them sounds a bit like saying they didn't have a/c either, but most churches have it today. Also, the incredible public address systems run the risk of making even avacado singing sound impressive and too beautiful, so we shouldn't use them. If you find instruments distracting in worshop, find a church that doesn't use them. If you find them helpful in worship, then go to a church that uses them. But if you want to establish a worship doctrine, use scripture. And I don't mean you stretch principles of scripture to fit your personal preference. I am going to need some specific reference in the New Testament that says avoid instruments in worship. I have a friend who is a sans instrument worshiper, and I am a instrument worshiper. The point is we both worship God. I would never infer that his worship is inferior to mine or that his is superior to mine. I refuse to make it a test of "true worship" of fellowship.

[This message has been edited by The Lone Stranger (edited 5/14/2004 2:34p).]

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avacado singing

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Now I'm hungry.

As to the AC argument, AC has nothing to do with how I worship. My singing does. AC on or off or non-existant: I can still worship.

You are right to seek scriptural support for worship. The scriptures are the key to understanding God.

If you reject the Old Testament as being cannonized, then there are no biblical references that demonstrate instruments in worship. If you still see the Old Testament as inspired for today, then the Psalms are full of references to musical instruments in worship. However, to me the question isn't what scripture do you have to support instruments in worship? I see instruments as an aid in making musical worship. "Oh, wait a minute, that's different" How so? We use all kinds of aids to help us in worship. Expensive public address systems make even average voices sound much better. A/C makes is easier for us to worship. Large screens show the lyrics to worship songs. Why arn't they an issue? What aids are OK, and what ones are not? Jesus never wore a three piece suit, but that's often the "robe" of protestant church preachers. I see no New Testament scripture forbiding instruments in worship. Other than the opinion of some early church fathers, where did this get started? If one studies the church fathers, they taught some really crazy stuff, like poking one's eyes out to escape sin, or baptizing unbelieving infants. Again, I am not trying to upse anyone, and I still find this debate both interesting and fascinating.

I wish we would not sing the "Our father". I do not like that. I find it very American to want to sing everything. The Protestants are crazy about it here in the south. Basicly the song overwhelms the sermon. But the preachers have to put butts in the seats.

Instruments do not equal air conditioning.

God cares about how worship occurs. Those that reject instuments do so in the attempt to worship in ways validated by scripture.

Yes there are no NT scriptures that condemn instruments outright. Nor are there those that support it either.

But there are scriptures that address the spirit of those who tweak God's instruction with preference in both OT and NT.

Yes, I know that air condictioning is not the same as instruments. I never attempt to "rock out" at home with my a/c unit. But, my point was not that they are the same, but that a/c, expensive p.a. systems, multi-media presentations, and such are aids to worship. And, of course, if someone is a true worshipper of God, then they could worship naked, in January, outside, in a snowstorm. However, I would find that a warm coat, though not commanded to use in worship, helpful. My point is simple: doctrinally, where does one draw the line? What aid is OK, and what aid causes one to become "puffed up?" I have no idea what you mean by, "...tweek God's instruction.." Clarify, please.

[This message has been edited by The Lone Stranger (edited 5/27/2004 9:10a).]

[This message has been edited by The Lone Stranger (edited 5/27/2004 9:15a).]

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And, of course, if someone is a true worshipper of God, then they could worship naked, in January, outside, in a snowstorm.

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True. As long as no one else stumbles because of it, God would accept such worship.

Let's look at the idea of aids for worship. Did the early Christians use a house or a building in which to worship? Yes. Homes were the meeting place. Would God be offended if they met outside? No, as I'm sure the location was not what's important in the worship act.

Would God be concerned if the temperature was not 78.3 degrees at precisely the moment the service started or ended? In the Book of First Celcius 3:45, it reads . . .

God does care about how I worship. There are examples of people adding to or taking from God's plan; they stand as warnings to us about things we might do for our own pleasure rather than for God's.

This is crazy.

Lone Stranger makes great points. PA systems, a/c, lighting....these are all aids.

People use musical instruments as aids to worship. Even with a worship band, I am still using my voice singing with my heart. How is utilizing instruments as aids to worship not following scripture, as long as I am singing with my heart. I am still singing with my heart while the guitar and drums are sounding.

It is a poor point.

A PA system helps the member hear so he can be edified. The a/c makes the temperature and humidity bearable in a building, lighting helps you see inside the building.

By your own statement "I am still singing with my heart while the guitar and drums are sounding."
You show that it isn't an aid, it is happening "while" you are singing, for singing requires no aid, it requires the mind and mouth and heart. Come on, you love the feel of musical instruments, you love their sound and how they make you feel. You can't imagine "worship" without them. People have told me they'd never give up music, they are committed to music.

The defenders of music never turn to this argument of a/c, lights,... though.

It would be just as wrong minded to offer incense with your prayers, it is foreign to God's pattern for Christian worship found exclusively in the New Testament. It is foriegn to the Word for one to "praise dance" in an assembly, it is forbidden to share a common meal along with communion. All these you could argue for, they are all wrapped up in "carnal" thinking of pleasure.

Music is for your pleasure, it must not be mixed up with worship before the King.

You can set up your cute arguments that are justify in your own mind, or you can have your mind molded to God's Word and will for those who would approach Him as Holy.

[This message has been edited by AgGermany (edited 6/3/2004 8:26a).]

Maybe we should all go back to house churches or worshipping in the catacombs to be "scripturally pure". Or hop on down to the local synagogue or Areopagus (or New Age bookstore) for converts.

http://realserver.goarch.org/ram/en/learntochant/PLI%2002.ram

http://realserver.goarch.org/ram/en/paraklesis.ram

[This message has been edited by jkotinek (edited 6/3/2004 8:55a).]

After a while, I am starting to see some of the same arguments being recycled, so I have a question for others. If you don't believe in using instruments in worship, do you believe that your worship is superior to those who use them? And for those of you who defend instruments in worship, do you believe that your worship is superior to those that worship sans instruments. Our voices make music, and can be quite artistic and beautiful by themselves. Some of the gregorian chants that I have heard are beautiful. Even though, as this thread shows, I support instruments in worship, I have heard voices raised to pristine singleness that were incredibly beautiful. And, hey, even if not beautiful, God hears the heart as well as the voice, and some might argue, the heart much more than the voice.

The heart is all that matters -- he doesn't say sing and make melody with your voices -- he says sing and make melody in your heart. I am a horrible singer. I don't understand pitch, and all that. However, I sing as loud as I can (with out being obnoxious), and with feeling and understanding.


texags77@yahoo.com
Please feel free to respond by email.

AgGermany,

You are getting pretty brutal in your responses. I have a different view on the stance. Doesn't mean I do not have my mind molded to God's Word.

I am so glad you are such a Great christian and everyone else that happens to sing with musical instruments does not have their minds molded to God's will

[This message has been edited by uneedastraw (edited 6/4/2004 11:14a).]

Wherever you stand on this issue, let's remember something: worship begins with the will and comes from the heart. You can be in a worship service with a orchestra and have a heart of selfness, or you can be in a service sans instruments, and have a heart of selfness. I know that when we argue an aspect of something as simple and yet complicated as worship, we run the risk of coming to conclusions based primarily on a person's stance on this issue. And, yes, this is a legitimate issue for debate, but let us remember that worship is much more than whether I am with or without instruments. In fact, I would suggest that God looks first at the heart, and then at the external, physical details. No, I am not trying to be cosmic, and ignore the fact that we do live in a physical reality, but it is the inner man, the heart, that truly worships the trinity. I saw a church nearly go crazy over whether they were going to get a pipe organ one time, and I thought that the whole thing was a joke considering it had nothing to do with whether the people chose to worship. Worship is a choice, and instruments or not have almost nothing to do with that choice.

uneedastraw:

Good post.

[This message has been edited by janag81 (edited 6/4/2004 11:09a).]