Spyderman said:

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Its my understanding that there was/is only ONE without sin.

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Marian Doctrine is a perfect example. Protestants think Catholics worship Mary (we don't), and they end up treating Mary like just an ordinary woman that was easily replaceable by any other woman. God really just needed someone with a uterus, just a vessel. In reality, Mary was set apart from the very beginning and created and chosen for a truly holy and sacred purpose. We see this in Genesis, and in John, and Luke, and in Revelation, and throughout the OT and NT. Mary leads all of us to Christ because it was through Mary that the Word became flesh.

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diehard03 said:

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Besides, does anyone actually think that God would have impregnated a sinful woman? I never did.

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I don't know. It seems like it fits right in in terms of Christ conquering sin. It makes perfect sense that Christ would be able to be sinless despite being born of a "sinful vessel".

(For me, this is not a hill to die on. Whether she was sinless or not is His sovereign right to make her as so...or not. But I don't believe it was somehow a requirement or anything. He makes the rules. He can do what He wants)

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Except that Genesis tells us that God will put enmity between the devil/serpent/deceiver/sin and the WOMAN. In your view, who is this woman?

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Faithful Ag said:

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M1Buckeye said:
The Catholic Church teaches that the blessed Mary is without sin. Is there a Biblical reference for this teaching?

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Faithful Ag said:
I am glad you chose this doctrine to discuss. Yes. I will present the doctrine of Mary being without sin including the Biblical support.

I am very busy today with work today so please bear with me on my response time. I will spend some time on this tonight and I look forward to engaging with you on this specific doctrine. Thanks!

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Bringing this to a new thread to keep it on topic:

TLDR: The Catholic doctrine on the sinlessness of the Blessed Virgin Mary, THE Woman, our Theotokos, the mother of Jesus Christ is found woven throughout the OT and NT Bible. You just need to know where and how to look for her, which might be difficult based on your tradition of interpretation. She is everywhere and it is beautiful and everything about her magnifies the Lord and helps us to know and understand Jesus Christ more fully.
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As Catholics, we approach the Bible through the eyes of the Church and through a lens of typology. There is a great deal of Christian truth and theology that is not explicitly seen with a Biblical proof-text, but is still supported Scripturally (and historically). Typology is basically the idea that the New is foreshadowed in the Old, and the Old is revealed in the New. For example, Adam was an Old Testament prefigurement that points us toward Jesus, and Jesus is revealed as the New Adam in the NT. Some NT Types are more clear than others, and in fact several references in the NT confirm that Jesus is indeed the New Adam. The one key to remember in Biblical typology is that the NT Fulfillment is always greater than the OT prefigurement.

Typology is not limited only to Jesus or to people. Other examples of types would include circumcision, Noah and the Flood, Moses and the parting of the Sea, and Joshua crossing the Jordan River, etc. as types of Baptism. Melchizedek, The Passover, Manna, Bread of the Presence, etc. are OT types of the Eucharist.

There are many types of Mary throughout the OT and I cannot go into all of them. There are a few types of Mary that are more obvious and identifiable than some of the more subtle prefigurements so I would like to focus on those. I will start with two of them: Mary the New Eve (or The Woman), and Mary the New Arc of the Covenant.

THE WOMAN
Going back to Genesis you will see that Eve is referred to as simply Woman. Eve was created without sin and was taken from the side/flesh of Adam to be his helper. "Bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh" so where Eve took on flesh from Adam, God Incarnate takes on His humanity or flesh from Mary. Keep reading in Genesis and you quickly come to the fall. There is far too much to cover here, but a couple of important points. Adam & Eve fell into sin and disobedience together. Adam quickly blamed God for the Woman He gave her (and threw Eve under the bus). God then punishes the serpent and does a number of things that relate to Mary's sinlessness:

1. "I will put enmity between you and the Woman," -note that enmity is placing the woman in opposition to, or completely against the devil. In order to have enmity between evil and the woman the woman must not know sin. Who is the woman in this verse? It obviously cannot be Eve, and it is the Catholic belief that the woman here is speaking specifically about Mary.

2. "And between your seed and HER seed;" -women typically do not have "seed" but understanding the woman would provide her own seed (virgin birth) this makes a little more since. Also note that the same enmity placed between the woman and the devil is also placed between her seed and the devil. Her seed is Jesus Christ who we know for a fact was without sin. They were in this together so to speak.

3. "He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel." -Foreshadowing of the cosmic battle described by John in the Apocalypse.

4. After the fall and the above, Adam named his wife Eve (No longer Woman) and following being banished from the garden he knew his wife and she conceived.

There is much, much more here but I think this is enough for now on Genesis.

Now with Genesis as our backdrop lets take a look at the Gospel of John, which is clearly what John wanted us to have in mind. 'In the beginning was the Word and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; The next day. The next day again. The next day. On the third day there was a marriage at Cana.' The parallels John creates between Genesis and the Gospel are not by mistake. Also, note the first thing Adam & Eve do when they are banished from the garden (conceive) compared to the first public miracle Jesus performs at his mother's request or intercession. Both have marriage undertones.

Jesus then says to her "Woman, what is this to you and to me? My hour has not yet come". This is far from a rebuke of Mary, but rather an indication of who Mary is THE Woman. The one spoken about in Genesis. The one with enmity between her and the devil (sin). Mary's response was not one concerned with what Jesus had said or if he would take action but rather she tells the servants to do whatever he tells you. She trusted Jesus and helped others to do the same and follow him.

Now fast forward to the foot of the cross. What is it that Jesus says and does with regard to his mother? He calls her "Woman", again not out of disrespect but because of who she is, Woman is her title in a sense. "Woman, behold your son! Behold your mother"


So I am going to have to save ""Mary, the Arc of the Covenant" for another night, but I hope "Mary the New Eve & The Woman" will be at least a start for helping to show some Biblical support for our beliefs on Mary. Are they crystal clear proof-texts? No. However the Biblical support is there and we are barely scratching the surface with this example although I think the enmity is a very strong point. I would be interested in others shedding light on their understanding of these passages.

Lastly, Mary was created and she needs her savior just like the rest of us. She is not Devine. The only difference is that God, who is not limited by anything including space and time, chose to preserve the mother of Jesus from the stain of sin. Furthermore Mary cooperated perfectly in her love and obedience for God. Her soul magnifies the Lord, and like Jesus she was full of grace.


ETA: We can also see Mary in The Apocalypse of John as the Arc of the Covenant and the Woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars who was with child and giving birth to Christ. I just don't have the energy left in me tonight but this continues the theme of THE WOMAN.

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The thing is, those who believe that Mary was without sin and ascended to Heaven, can justify the special reverence given to her

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Quad Dog said:

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I thought I remembered reading the belief that Mary was a virgin her whole life. Maybe that was something else.

To me, that's the step too far. That a married woman would remain a virgin. Or that Joseph would remain married to a virgin.

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So first is seeing and accepting that Mary is the New Eve and thus making Mary the Woman to which this promise applies. I am open to hearing any other option than Mary providing you can offer support for your view.


Enmity is hatred, opposition, separation. If the Woman being spoken of is Mary and Mary committed sin then at that moment there would not have been enmity between them.

What alternative would you put forward for who the Woman in Genesis is?

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There's some interesting stuff there. The position of the queen mother is a unique office of the Davidic throne (see 1 Kings 2:19). If you look in the genealogies they list the mothers of the kings for the Davidic line (eg 1 Kings 14:21, 15:2....2 Kings 22:1 etc etc), but not for anyone else. You can see this is a position at court, and it can be deposed - see Asa and Maacah in 1 Kings 15:13.

Mary as the Mother of the Lord is an office of the Lord's court because of His unique kingship as the Davidic king. Mary as the Theotokos, the mother of God, as part of the divine council, is because of His unique kingship as the Most High God. You can't separate the two, because He is both.

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We know from the earliest times that Mary His mother was part of the gospel proclamation, because very, very early attacking Mary was seen as a way to attack Him.

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With Marian doctrines the church is usually trying to define something about Christ. So declaring Mary as mother of God, they are saying Jesus is God. To say that Mary is sinless is to show how durning the incarnation Our Lord inherited sinless flesh from Mary, since there was no earthly father.

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No Mary, No Christ
Know Mary, Know Christ.

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That is kind of how typology works. The New Testament fulfillment is always greater than the Old Testament prefigurement or type. The Old Testament is revealed by the New Testament. In this case both Eve and Mary were the Woman and really no other case for any other person would be fitting. However it is Mary that is the greater, that does the will of God, that succeeds where Eve failed.

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Eve was created without sin and chose to bring sin into this world. Mary, being greater than Eve, was also created without sin and chose to bring salvation into the world by living a life opposed to sin. Enmity.

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What do you mean by the entire gospel of John looks different?

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Eta: Christ looks to the Father that he is God but his mother that he is man. Both are important for us

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Our Lord respected Mary's freedom. Without her Fiat there would not have been the incarnation.

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I'm not entirely convinced that it means anything though. What does the divine council mean? I am sure the were Queen Mothers overtime who had more or less power, so what's the point we are trying to convey? Mere recognition or honor? sure. But as a conduit to Christ, when he's already establishes that He is the conduit to himself?

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I don't know that attacking someone's mother means shes part of the gospel...

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Faithful Ag said:

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diehard03 said:

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Our Lord respected Mary's freedom. Without her Fiat there would not have been the incarnation.

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Where is this in Scripture? Why didn't the Angel ask Mary instead of telling her what was to happen to her?

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can you point to anyone or anytime in scripture that God forced his will upon someone without their assent and consent ?

Mary was not rewarded for her sinless life by getting the prize to be the mother of Jesus. She was set apart and chosen for that purpose and she accepted it humbly. Mary did not know her purpose until the Angel appeared to her at the annunciation. She simply asked how and immediately accepted with love for God.

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