dermdoc said:

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I believe the Orthodox view.

https://www.orthodoxroad.com/heaven-hell/

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DirtDiver said:

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When speaking heaven and hell, while it fascinating to imagine what it will be like, I really have no information to go on beyond the biblical account. From your OP, here are a few verses that immediately came to mind.

For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, declares the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.
11 And they will not teach, each one his fellow citizen,
And each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
For they will all know Me,
From the least to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful toward their wrongdoings,
And their sins I will no longer remember." Hebrews 8:10

2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

Is there sin in heaven or anything to forgive at this point?

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dermdoc said:

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I believe the Orthodox view.

https://www.orthodoxroad.com/heaven-hell/

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M1Buckeye said:

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Catholics believe in purgatory and protestants believe that it's either Heaven or Hell. In other words, for protestants, it's all or nothing.

Christians will say that this or that isn't "Biblical". Well, I'm confident that there are MANY truths that God has not revealed to us. It wasn't God's intention to put ALL truths into the Bible. So, we are left to speculate as to what may be in the afterlife.

None of us are worthy of immediate glory in Heaven. Through Christ, we can be forgiven and cleansed so that we can enter. However, I suspect that our learning continues even after death. The big difference is that, in Heaven, we will NOT be subject to the influences of Satan and his demons. As well, we will be healed of the affliction of sin. Still, I believe, we will continue to learn.

I think it's probable that lessons we didn't learn in life will be learned in Heaven. For instance, alcoholics will learn to live without alcohol. People who could not forgive in life will learn to do so in Heaven.

Corrupt politicians, if they reach Heaven, will have a much further way to go to achieve fulfillment and joy than say, a missionary. Jesus can forgive us, but I don't believe he can "learn" for us. He teaches, but we must be the ones to LEARN. I don't believe that, upon death, we are instantly on God's level of knowledge.

Thoughts?

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File5 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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Catholics believe in purgatory and protestants believe that it's either Heaven or Hell. In other words, for protestants, it's all or nothing.

Christians will say that this or that isn't "Biblical". Well, I'm confident that there are MANY truths that God has not revealed to us. It wasn't God's intention to put ALL truths into the Bible. So, we are left to speculate as to what may be in the afterlife.

None of us are worthy of immediate glory in Heaven. Through Christ, we can be forgiven and cleansed so that we can enter. However, I suspect that our learning continues even after death. The big difference is that, in Heaven, we will NOT be subject to the influences of Satan and his demons. As well, we will be healed of the affliction of sin. Still, I believe, we will continue to learn.

I think it's probable that lessons we didn't learn in life will be learned in Heaven. For instance, alcoholics will learn to live without alcohol. People who could not forgive in life will learn to do so in Heaven.

Corrupt politicians, if they reach Heaven, will have a much further way to go to achieve fulfillment and joy than say, a missionary. Jesus can forgive us, but I don't believe he can "learn" for us. He teaches, but we must be the ones to LEARN. I don't believe that, upon death, we are instantly on God's level of knowledge.

Thoughts?

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I know you say you aren't Catholic anymore, but you're essentially describing Purgatory in your last two paragraphs. For Catholics it IS Heaven or Hell. If you're in Purgatory you will be going to Heaven. It is simply the state of purgation before that you're describing, as nothing unclean will enter Heaven.

What is your argument that you can enter Heaven and not have "achieved fulfillment" yet?
How can someone who hasn't learned to forgive enter Heaven?
And finally, will there be beer in Heaven??? I hope there is, lol.

As for Heaven/Hell being a physical place or not, the willful eternal joining or absence to or from Christ's love is what I believe as well.

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UTExan said:

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As to whether Hell is a place or a state of being, it was prepared for the Devil and his angels (Matt 25:41) . I cringe when a person wishes another person to "burn in hell", because it betrays an internal pathology and misunderstanding of the consequences of eternal judgment. It also brings the possibility of self-judgment. Matt7:1-2 and Romans 14:4 are very explicit regarding judgment of others. It is also a warning against bringing up their past sins in a theological context. If those sins are forgiven by God, man has no standing to bring them up as personal accusations, as Satan attempts.

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dermdoc said:

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UTExan said:

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As to whether Hell is a place or a state of being, it was prepared for the Devil and his angels (Matt 25:41) . I cringe when a person wishes another person to "burn in hell", because it betrays an internal pathology and misunderstanding of the consequences of eternal judgment. It also brings the possibility of self-judgment. Matt7:1-2 and Romans 14:4 are very explicit regarding judgment of others. It is also a warning against bringing up their past sins in a theological context. If those sins are forgiven by God, man has no standing to bring them up as personal accusations, as Satan attempts.

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Agree. I try to console myself that they do not really understand what they are saying.

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dermdoc said:

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I believe the Orthodox view.

https://www.orthodoxroad.com/heaven-hell/

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dermdoc said:

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Workers of lawlessness is the key phrase there imho. They are still choosing.

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M1Buckeye said:

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dermdoc said:

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Workers of lawlessness is the key phrase there imho. They are still choosing.

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I'm unclear as to whether or not there is anything Biblical to support that doctrine. I would have liked to have seen a bit more Biblical verses to support his beliefs but I think many things are possible that are not necessarily spoken of in the Bible.

That was one thing that I disliked about the Catholic Church. They seemed to advocate for various doctrines without providing Biblical support.

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Quote:

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but if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou ought to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the CHURCH of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

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Goodbull_19 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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dermdoc said:

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Workers of lawlessness is the key phrase there imho. They are still choosing.

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I'm unclear as to whether or not there is anything Biblical to support that doctrine. I would have liked to have seen a bit more Biblical verses to support his beliefs but I think many things are possible that are not necessarily spoken of in the Bible.

That was one thing that I disliked about the Catholic Church. They seemed to advocate for various doctrines without providing Biblical support.

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Quote:

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but if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou ought to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the CHURCH of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

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The Church is cited here as the pillar and ground of truth. What are your thoughts on that?

Have you ever read up on the doctrine of sola scriptura and various arguments for and against it?

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M1Buckeye said:

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dermdoc said:

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Workers of lawlessness is the key phrase there imho. They are still choosing.

---

I'm unclear as to whether or not there is anything Biblical to support that doctrine. I would have liked to have seen a bit more Biblical verses to support his beliefs but I think many things are possible that are not necessarily spoken of in the Bible.

That was one thing that I disliked about the Catholic Church. They seemed to advocate for various doctrines without providing Biblical support.

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M1Buckeye said:

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Goodbull_19 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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dermdoc said:

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Workers of lawlessness is the key phrase there imho. They are still choosing.

---

I'm unclear as to whether or not there is anything Biblical to support that doctrine. I would have liked to have seen a bit more Biblical verses to support his beliefs but I think many things are possible that are not necessarily spoken of in the Bible.

That was one thing that I disliked about the Catholic Church. They seemed to advocate for various doctrines without providing Biblical support.

---

Quote:

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but if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou ought to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the CHURCH of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

---

The Church is cited here as the pillar and ground of truth. What are your thoughts on that?

Have you ever read up on the doctrine of sola scriptura and various arguments for and against it?

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I don't necessarily believe that "the church" mentioned in the Bible is specifically referring to the Catholic Church.

No, I don't know anything about "sola scriptura".

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File5 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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dermdoc said:

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Workers of lawlessness is the key phrase there imho. They are still choosing.

---

I'm unclear as to whether or not there is anything Biblical to support that doctrine. I would have liked to have seen a bit more Biblical verses to support his beliefs but I think many things are possible that are not necessarily spoken of in the Bible.

That was one thing that I disliked about the Catholic Church. They seemed to advocate for various doctrines without providing Biblical support.

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Which doctrines are those you're referring to? The RCC predates the Bible and does not profess sola scriptura, so biblical support is not necessary for all doctrines.

There is a difference in non-biblical and anti-biblical, below is a link to a short summary.

https://shop.catholic.com/blog/biblical-nonbiblical-traditions/

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File5 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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dermdoc said:

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Workers of lawlessness is the key phrase there imho. They are still choosing.

---

I'm unclear as to whether or not there is anything Biblical to support that doctrine. I would have liked to have seen a bit more Biblical verses to support his beliefs but I think many things are possible that are not necessarily spoken of in the Bible.

That was one thing that I disliked about the Catholic Church. They seemed to advocate for various doctrines without providing Biblical support.

---

Which doctrines are those you're referring to? The RCC predates the Bible and does not profess sola scriptura, so biblical support is not necessary for all doctrines.

There is a difference in non-biblical and anti-biblical, below is a link to a short summary.

https://shop.catholic.com/blog/biblical-nonbiblical-traditions/

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Goodbull_19 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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Goodbull_19 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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dermdoc said:

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Workers of lawlessness is the key phrase there imho. They are still choosing.

---

I'm unclear as to whether or not there is anything Biblical to support that doctrine. I would have liked to have seen a bit more Biblical verses to support his beliefs but I think many things are possible that are not necessarily spoken of in the Bible.

That was one thing that I disliked about the Catholic Church. They seemed to advocate for various doctrines without providing Biblical support.

---

Quote:

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but if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou ought to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the CHURCH of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

---

The Church is cited here as the pillar and ground of truth. What are your thoughts on that?

Have you ever read up on the doctrine of sola scriptura and various arguments for and against it?

---

I don't necessarily believe that "the church" mentioned in the Bible is specifically referring to the Catholic Church.

No, I don't know anything about "sola scriptura".

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Sola Scriptura, or "Scripture Alone" is one of the main tenants of the Protestant Reformation.

In short, it refers to the principle that the Bible is the sole source of infallible teaching for Christians.

Catholics disagree, arguing for more of a "three legged stool" approach Sacred Scripture, the Church's Magisterium (teaching authority, and Sacred Tradition.

I know it's about a 40 minute listen, but I HIGHLY recommend giving this video a listen. A great overview of what sola scriptura is, and good reasons to not accept it, given as a talk to a Protestant audience.

You can also search "my doubts about sola scriptura" on the Apple podcast app or Spotify.

https://www.catholic.com/audio/cot/my-doubts-about-sola-scriptura

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M1Buckeye said:

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File5 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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dermdoc said:

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Workers of lawlessness is the key phrase there imho. They are still choosing.

---

I'm unclear as to whether or not there is anything Biblical to support that doctrine. I would have liked to have seen a bit more Biblical verses to support his beliefs but I think many things are possible that are not necessarily spoken of in the Bible.

That was one thing that I disliked about the Catholic Church. They seemed to advocate for various doctrines without providing Biblical support.

---

Which doctrines are those you're referring to? The RCC predates the Bible and does not profess sola scriptura, so biblical support is not necessary for all doctrines.

There is a difference in non-biblical and anti-biblical, below is a link to a short summary.

https://shop.catholic.com/blog/biblical-nonbiblical-traditions/

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Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Based on this excerpt from the article, it sounds like to me that the author would support abandoning the Bible altogether and cede all Biblical authority to the Roman Catholic Church.


And it is not just New Testament references to the Old Testament that seem to go beyond the Bible. In Acts 20:35, Paul quotes Jesus as saying, "It is more blessed to give than to receive"yet Jesus is not recorded as having said this anywhere in the Gospels.

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M1Buckeye said:

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Goodbull_19 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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Goodbull_19 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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dermdoc said:

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Workers of lawlessness is the key phrase there imho. They are still choosing.

---

I'm unclear as to whether or not there is anything Biblical to support that doctrine. I would have liked to have seen a bit more Biblical verses to support his beliefs but I think many things are possible that are not necessarily spoken of in the Bible.

That was one thing that I disliked about the Catholic Church. They seemed to advocate for various doctrines without providing Biblical support.

---

Quote:

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but if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou ought to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the CHURCH of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

---

The Church is cited here as the pillar and ground of truth. What are your thoughts on that?

Have you ever read up on the doctrine of sola scriptura and various arguments for and against it?

---

I don't necessarily believe that "the church" mentioned in the Bible is specifically referring to the Catholic Church.

No, I don't know anything about "sola scriptura".

---

Sola Scriptura, or "Scripture Alone" is one of the main tenants of the Protestant Reformation.

In short, it refers to the principle that the Bible is the sole source of infallible teaching for Christians.

Catholics disagree, arguing for more of a "three legged stool" approach Sacred Scripture, the Church's Magisterium (teaching authority, and Sacred Tradition.

I know it's about a 40 minute listen, but I HIGHLY recommend giving this video a listen. A great overview of what sola scriptura is, and good reasons to not accept it, given as a talk to a Protestant audience.

You can also search "my doubts about sola scriptura" on the Apple podcast app or Spotify.

https://www.catholic.com/audio/cot/my-doubts-about-sola-scriptura

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Thanks. I'll listen.

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Goodbull_19 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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File5 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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dermdoc said:

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Workers of lawlessness is the key phrase there imho. They are still choosing.

---

I'm unclear as to whether or not there is anything Biblical to support that doctrine. I would have liked to have seen a bit more Biblical verses to support his beliefs but I think many things are possible that are not necessarily spoken of in the Bible.

That was one thing that I disliked about the Catholic Church. They seemed to advocate for various doctrines without providing Biblical support.

---

Which doctrines are those you're referring to? The RCC predates the Bible and does not profess sola scriptura, so biblical support is not necessary for all doctrines.

There is a difference in non-biblical and anti-biblical, below is a link to a short summary.

https://shop.catholic.com/blog/biblical-nonbiblical-traditions/

---

Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Based on this excerpt from the article, it sounds like to me that the author would support abandoning the Bible altogether and cede all Biblical authority to the Roman Catholic Church.


And it is not just New Testament references to the Old Testament that seem to go beyond the Bible. In Acts 20:35, Paul quotes Jesus as saying, "It is more blessed to give than to receive"yet Jesus is not recorded as having said this anywhere in the Gospels.

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Absolutely not. I think that excerpt just goes to point out, there are important things that Jesus taught/said/did that are not explicitly recorded in Scripture. It is NOT saying to throw Scripture out.

Buckeye, have you ever considered this? How do we know what the Bible is? How are we to know which books to include, and which to leave out? How can we know this FOR SURE? Why accept any one book of the Bible as inspired? I.e. who has the authority to determine that the Gospel of Matthew is INDEED the inspired and inerrant Word of God?

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M1Buckeye said:

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One thing that pushed me away from the Catholic Church was the revelation to me that Pope John Paul II kissed the Koran.

How did you feel about that? Would Jesus have kissed that book?

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Goodbull_19 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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One thing that pushed me away from the Catholic Church was the revelation to me that Pope John Paul II kissed the Koran.

How did you feel about that? Would Jesus have kissed that book?

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I'm not aware of that situation. I do believe Pope JPII was a tremendous gift to the Church, and to the world, and played a large part in bringing down Communism non-violently.

Would Jesus have kissed the book? I don't know, I would presume not.

Either way, my membership in a church does not depend on the actions of its fallen leaders. Any church you join their leaders will fail. Their members will fail. Scandal and corruption will abound.

For example, Jesus chose 12 apostles. 1 betrayed him and the other denied him, the latter of which Catholics believe was the first pope. If Jesus can choose and work through such broken men for his closest followers, I have no doubt He can do the same through the other leaders of His Church.

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M1Buckeye said:

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Goodbull_19 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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One thing that pushed me away from the Catholic Church was the revelation to me that Pope John Paul II kissed the Koran.

How did you feel about that? Would Jesus have kissed that book?

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I'm not aware of that situation. I do believe Pope JPII was a tremendous gift to the Church, and to the world, and played a large part in bringing down Communism non-violently.

Would Jesus have kissed the book? I don't know, I would presume not.

Either way, my membership in a church does not depend on the actions of its fallen leaders. Any church you join their leaders will fail. Their members will fail. Scandal and corruption will abound.

For example, Jesus chose 12 apostles. 1 betrayed him and the other denied him, the latter of which Catholics believe was the first pope. If Jesus can choose and work through such broken men for his closest followers, I have no doubt He can do the same through the other leaders of His Church.

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I agree that there isn't a church leader in existence that is 100% knowledgeable. That doesn't suggest that they're not outstanding servants of Christ or that they are not sound on doctrine.

I was raised Catholic and attended Catholic schools and went to Mass twice a week for years. I was taught that the Pope is infallible on matters of doctrine. When I learned of the Pope kissing the Koran, I was floored. That act caused me to believe that, not only is the Pope fallible, but he is NOT the "direct descendant" of Peter.

https://insidethevatican.com/news/newsflash/letter-8-the-meaning-of-a-kiss/

Pope Francis has become quite the worldly politician himself. Jesus never engaged in such things, so why does the Pope? I'll tell you my belief; the Pope is on a path different than what Jesus prescribed.

For these two reasons, I no longer consider myself Catholic. With that said, there are COUNTLESS wonderful people in
the Catholic faith. My late father was one of them.

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Quote:

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If the Catholic church which has been created by Peter, Paul and the apostles isn't the Church of Christ, what is?

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PacifistAg said:

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Quote:

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If the Catholic church which has been created by Peter, Paul and the apostles isn't the Church of Christ, what is?

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The Orthodox?

Just kidding. I'm grateful for my Catholic siblings on this site. Growing up Baptist and then, as an adult, Church of Christ, I grew up with an ignorant understanding of Catholicism. I've learned much from y'all here.

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M1Buckeye said:

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dermdoc said:

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Workers of lawlessness is the key phrase there imho. They are still choosing.

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I'm unclear as to whether or not there is anything Biblical to support that doctrine. I would have liked to have seen a bit more Biblical verses to support his beliefs but I think many things are possible that are not necessarily spoken of in the Bible.

That was one thing that I disliked about the Catholic Church. They seemed to advocate for various doctrines without providing Biblical support.

---