That's like saying I want my color to be the sound I believe I am. They're unrelated, gender is independent of sex. You said so yourself.

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If they're not the same thing, why would a transgender person need physical reassignment surgery?

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Most don't. The ones that do are typically due to dysphoria. Much like the Facial Feminization Surgery I just had. It really is hard to explain what dysphoria is like. The best way I've come up with is as though I spent the first 35+ years of my life wearing a mask. I wore it for so long that everyone just believed that's who I was, but that creates this torture because you know it's not you that they're seeing. You know it's just a mask, and no matter how much you plead with people to understand, they just refuse to see you as anything but what they see on the surface. Then you transition and you begin to start peeling that mask off. People start seeing the real you. Some people reject it, much like some people would rather ignore evidence and an innocent person stay in prison than to admit that the system was broken. But you keep peeling off that mask. For some, it comes off easily. They may just need hormones without social transition. Some may need more. Some may have parts of that mask that just won't come off, like the physical changes from mid-teens puberty. So to correct that, we may have surgeries. It may be something more simple like shaving down a brow bone, a jawline, etc. That may be enough for them to where they can live without seeing the remnants of that mask. But not everyone is the same. Some may need to have GCS to remove all remnants. Every trans person is different in that regard.

I don't threaten people with suicide like some people here claim. Some would prefer to twist and contort my statements to the point of bearing false witness. When I say that my only two choices were transition or suicide, that's not a threat, it was just reality. I went through therapy. I threw myself into my faith. I took antidepressants. I met with Christian counselors. I met with pastors. I begged and pleaded with God every night to take this away, or help me through. I did that for decades, but I reached a point that I couldn't continue. I reached a point where I literally said this to my wife through tears: "We both know where this is going. We both know I'm going to eventually take my life. Since we don't have guns, we both know it'll be pills. I don't want to die alone. Can we just accept that this is what's going to happen, and let me take the pills, say goodbye to you and the kids, and slowly fade off with y'all here with me. Just please, I need this pain to end."

When people jump to condemn me, it pisses me off because they have no clue just how dark things were. I tried for decades. Again, I prayed every possible prayer. I read every possible book. There was nothing left. So, was it wrong to transition? I don't believe so. I believe my life and faith since are evidence of that. The depression is virtually nonexistent. My faith is oh so much deeper and stronger. So maybe when Christ returns He'll tell me I was wrong, but I also believe that He knows what I did was done truly believing it wasn't sinful and that He'd rather me be alive than dead. So when people intentionally misgender me when other options are available, yes it hurts because it feels like they're trying to put that mask back on me. I can't go back into that prison. People don't understand what it's like, and I wish so many of my fellow Christians, and heck non-Christians, would listen to our stories before sitting in condemnation of us (not saying you are condemning me).

I just had a woman on Twitter tell me over and over again that I can't be a Christian because if I were truly saved, I would no longer be transgender. Only after I got fed up with her and repeatedly told her to leave my thread did she add "But I love you and care about your soul". Bull***** She took no time to hear my story. To try to understand. It was just immediate condemnation from a self-appointed gatekeeper.

Sorry for the rant, I just want people to understand. You may not understand "being transgender", but I want people to understand and try to grasp just how deep the pain was. A pain that is no longer here.

Zobel said:

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That's like saying I want my color to be the sound I believe I am. They're unrelated, gender is independent of sex. You said so yourself.

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Assuming you are having this conversation in good faith, I suggest you read this link, which might help you understand this issue a little better:

https://www.vox.com/2015/6/4/8728977/transgender-bodies

What you're describing are secondary sex characteristics, which like primary sex characteristics are not social constructs.

I understand that the term transgender obviously involves elements of both social or gender dysphoria and also physical or sexual dysphoria. I also understand that its not a chosen condition, and that it is a burden to people who have it. I don't see having dysphoria as a right or wrong or condemn you for how you handle it.

The only point I was making is that its disingenuous to argue about gender as a social construct when it's painfully obvious that dysphoria is not purely about gender.

Yes, I don't believe we're changing our sex assigned at birth. Unfortunately, I can't do anything about my chromosomes. We often change those secondary sex characteristics, including starting hormone therapy, to help align them to our gender.

Btw, if you're interested in my recent surgery, I chronicled it for my blog: Before & After

That article still conflates gender and sex. They're not independent - if they were, there'd be no reason for a transgender person to change their body.

I suspect, though I don't know, that the use of transgender vs transsexual was one to make it more palatable or socially acceptable for a person to express or react to their dysphoria. At the risk of digging up old wounds, it would be a form of a motte and bailey argument. As gender is a social construct, and names are a social construct, a person can choose to have a separate gender - easily argued, this becomes a matter of freedom. But the reality of the situation is the person also wants to change sex characteristics to be consistent with their gender - not so simple by far.

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I also understand that its not a chosen condition, and that it is a burden to people who have it. I don't see having dysphoria as a right or wrong or condemn you for how you handle it.

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Btw, I just wanted to say "thank you" for this. I appreciate it, especially as you're one that I respect tremendously on this board and has taught me so much.

No worries. I have avoided discussing it because I don't know what to say to you about it, or how to discern right and wrong for you in your situation. I am sorry that you're having to struggle with this, and I wish you didn't have to. So, I've kept my mouth shut. I hope God gives you wisdom and healing, and peace for your family.

I'd love to talk with you about it. That's probably something that would better be discussed via email (or if you're ever in CS, over a beer) than here. Too many can jump in here.

diehard03 said:

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How does one self-impose such a thing? How does one self-impose the idea that you should call a circle a circle? And if one calls all circles circles instead of one a triangle the idea that it would be unloving is nonsensical.

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It's not always necessary to call a circle a circle. If there's 1 shape on the board, someone can talk about "the shape on the board". it's not critical to reference it as a circle. if there are 20 red shapes of differing types and 1 blue circle, you can reference the blue shape. Again, it's not important that you call it the circle. You are making it a requirement to name it a circle at all times.

My point is simply that, absent any critical need, its a nice thing to call people what they want to be called and many would consider that loving. I know someone wants to scream about the time of critical need...say hospital situation. I'm sure Pacifist would have no problem telling them "I'm MtF" like asking about blood type.

The crazy part is that you've probably run into several trans people and called them by their transitioned pronouns because you didn't know they were trans... This is all most want.

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If I said my pronoun was 'smartest person on the forum' would you really simply call me that all the time? If so that's how I now identify.

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I don't know why you feel the need to lump the fringe in with the rank and file. Most just want to be "he" or "she". The "xims and xers" of the world know it will be more difficult for even well meaning people to remember and adhere to.

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You're now discussing circumlocution: describing a word without actually saying the word. This is an imposition on others; it's not others imposing on the circle. It's like a privilege discussion. Instead of saying discrimination is wrong, those who are not discriminated against must internalize the anxiety of self examination in every situation. It's inversion; don't simply eliminate what is bad, take what is bad and make everyone feel it and be aware of it.

You've also stopped asking questions such as, is this healthy for all? Is it good for all? How does capitulating and recoding everyone else's language to cater to the circle change society? For those that are healthy, is it confusing? Should children who haven't mastered shapes call all circles circles except this one, and justify the oddity of not calling it a circle (hence gender identity discussion at the ages of 3 and 4 and drag queen story hour since that's the age kids notice sec differences)? Live not by lies. There are bigger battles embodied in these spaces. Hospitality itself can be perverted and overbearing and corrupting (thus we arrive here, where your hospitality now challenges individuals who are healthier in this specific respect). Indeed I am called toxic and every perceived slight (and I do mean perceived since I edit my posts for pacifists' benefit) is magnified. Engaging with truth in fact drives pacifist crazy to the point where Jesus demands nothing of pacifist and everything of others (hence no acknowledgment of the teaching of forgiveness and instead instant grievance and bristling at any slip of the 'tongue').

Is it not better to teach that the circle is disordered and that it deserves sympathy as it struggles with its shape? That all shapes are disordered in different ways and must mediate their desires and thoughts for the good of self and those that they love? I talk with my kids about gay relatives, addict relatives, divorced relatives, selfish relatives, abusive relatives, overbearing relatives, and a host of other people.

You are right though, in the hour of critical need that which is true must out. Which is of course why making everyone else play they game is to make liars out of them.

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Is it not better to teach that the circle is disordered and that it deserves sympathy as it struggles with its shape?

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Sounds like something some dirty isosceles would say.

Dirty Isosceles is an awesome band name. Dibs.

Dilettante said:

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Is it not better to teach that the circle is disordered and that it deserves sympathy as it struggles with its shape?

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Sounds like something some dirty isosceles would say.

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Don't want to see your browser history.

Zobel said:

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Dirty Isosceles is an awesome band name. Dibs.

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Yet another orthodox band. *Yawn*

Hey pacifist, not sure if we've ever spoken outside TA.

I gave up fighting the good fight years ago.... tou leave dissertations, they get dismissed with the wave of a hand.